That was actually me. You can find the thread, and the developer post saying it was an interesting idea over here.
I think by law I have to agree with only 50% of your posts.
OK, that's a good one.
If your idea (different volumes in teams, not the alien PN) was implemented, would it be better for defending power nodes? You could spare more for patrol duties, and keep pushing.
I keep hearing how if only marines had a couple people guarding base this would never happen. Well if it was 9v7 the marines could have 2 on base D and not be crippled on the front lines.
It also adds in another asymmetric element to the game. Right now I'm for anything that can fix this.
So I ran across this today... I single it out because it's a prime example of what I consider to be one of the most broken aspects of the game.
1. Nano Shield wasn't used.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here... but Ninja phase gates require time to build. They require power that requires time to build. The build time alone is more than it takes for aliens to kill power. And unless you have a huge amount of marines through that gate, you will not focus the hive down in 8s.
I don't think you should count the build time with a Ninja PG. It's usually 1-2 Marines sneaking it up, so the time should start when they attack anything in the Hive.
briatx, I recently played a few pub games with average (pub) teams. Comm'd one, didn't Comm the other. The team make up did change between games. Both games the Aliens repeatedly attack with double gorge(bile), gorge(bile)+lerk(gas)+Onos, gorge(bile)+skulk+skulk. Marines won the one I Comm'd, lost the one with a different Comm. I don't think I did anything special and Comm'd below average. The difference was Nano-Shields, Beacon timing, Healthpack/Ammo support, and Tech path (less waste).
When the double Gorge+Skulk attacked, I checked the number of Marines defending (meaning any Marine, in base, responding to the attack), shielded the Power node if less than 3 Marines defending at the time of the attack, prepared to hit Beacon if another Alien (or two) showed up. Ended up only having to hit Beacon only once the entire round. The Aliens made about 7 more attempts before Marines dominated most of the map. Dropped the Aliens down to one Hive with a PG+Armory at a map choke point.
Second game the Comm had a better start (4-5 nodes early, rather than 3 for me, and secured 3 Tech Points quickly), built Chairs in each base, Mines early, GL early. When the same group (makeup) of Aliens did a double Gorge Bile attack, the Comm didn't Nano-Shield anything, didn't Beacon (seem indecisive), and didn't drop meds. It was completely on the Marines to PG through and save the Base; the Comm would just give late, frantic warnings. Marines dropped down to two bases and went from being slightly ahead to slightly behind. The Marines recovered the third Base, only to have another Base attacked by a Gorge+Lerk+Skulk. Again, the Comm didn't Nano-Shield anything (even players PGing in), no meds/ammo and really late Beacon. The game went on like that, until the Comm did an unnecessary Beacon, stopping a Ninja PG on Hive and an assault on another, pretty much killing our best opportunities to regain map control.
If the Comm had used the available tools, they could have possibly made it easier to defend and attack, save a few Tech Points and many Resource nodes, and possibly won the round.
These are the kinda games I see too often. Comms that use their tools, don't loses their minds during sneak attacks, easily deal with Bile Bomb rushes. Comms who don't use their tools, are forgetful, jumpy and indecisive can't deal with Bile Bomb rushes, much less any coordinated assault. It makes it very hard to see Bile Bomb as the problem. I do see the alerts as a problem. Aliens Hive literally screams when touched, while a Power nodes alert might be overshadowed by a orders request.
Also, I know it's all anecdotal, but it's what I'm experiencing when I play.
1. Nano Shield wasn't used.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
Maybe you missed the part about 8 seconds. If the commander had a reasonable time to respond and proper notifications, maybe YOU might have a point. The comm has 4 seconds to beacon. Even beaconing is a big loss when Exos are in the field. It's basically win-win for the aliens here.
Marines had 8 seconds to phase back. Which is not a lot of time.
Tell me what static defense parked at base would have deflected that attack? One or two marines will just die to the Onos. A dual exo might have a shot if the entrances are blocked.
Nano might have slowed it down a few seconds.
MACs will just cutely blow up when biled. So I don't see your point here.
The only things that could have been realistically done are beacon (not desirable) or park 75+ pres as static defense (not desirable either). Aliens do not seem to have any such requirements.
I don't think you should count the build time with a Ninja PG. It's usually 1-2 Marines sneaking it up, so the time should start when they attack anything in the Hive.
These are the kinda games I see too often. Comms that use their tools, don't loses their minds during sneak attacks, easily deal with Bile Bomb rushes. Comms who don't use their tools, are forgetful, jumpy and indecisive can't deal with Bile Bomb rushes, much less any coordinated assault. It makes it very hard to see Bile Bomb as the problem. I do see the alerts as a problem. Aliens Hive literally screams when touched, while a Power nodes alert might be overshadowed by a orders request.
Also, I know it's all anecdotal, but it's what I'm experiencing when I play.
Well, thanks for the reports. I just wonder why I don't see "Ninja PG" used as often as "Bile rushes". I mean there has to be a reason for that, right?
I certainly don't think bile bomb rushes are INDEFENSIBLE. I think they are OP and imbalanced and that no team should have a 20 res, 2 player, 10 second basewrecker. That's my basic stance. But if one side has something like that then you need to give the other side a similar capability or an equally cheap defense.
Good thing the gorge is getting buffed next patch. "I sure picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue..."
@ScardyBob, see the first quarter of Savants' posts.
Ah, totally missed it, thanks! Savant suggests the idea to mock the concept of powernodes, but I think its a legitimate way to balance powernodes. It would better incorporate two RTS concepts that NS2's RTS-side is sorely lacking:
- Equalizing the threat of a base-crippling backstab
- Give a viable path for a come-from-behind victory
Ah, totally missed it, thanks! Savant suggests the idea to mock the concept of powernodes, but I think its a legitimate way to balance powernodes. It would better incorporate two RTS concepts that NS2's RTS-side is sorely lacking:
- Equalizing the threat of a base-crippling backstab
- Give a viable path for a come-from-behind victory
In theory, a slim chance, but think about damage outputs for marines:
Giving the aliens an equally crippling structure would just be fair. But having these i win buttons in the first place is ruining teamplay. When one player can take out a base in 20 seconds, where is the need for teamplay?
I can't help but compare this to ns1, where a single alien in a lone marinebase could create havok too but taking out the whole base in a mere 20 seconds was not possible. If you went for the obs, the marines could still pg in. If you went for the pg, there was beacon. So smart rambo aliens went for the expensive structures. If the advanced armory went down, that was often a crippling blow but it did not end the game immidiatly.
The point is to make players fight players not sneak around them and attack their buildings.
Scaling the tech-point power nodes' health with number of CCs might be an option to placate the power node haters. Personally, I like scouting bases with a jetpack and shotgun to keep it clean and clear of scummy aliens.
I was in a game with Savant (I assume it was you...?) on Monday before my gather started. I was mainly playing this role in that game, keeping fades from attacking terminal, cafe and locker (which I'd managed to secure on my own while half the team ran off doing I have no idea what...). I realised that we needed someone who could at least hit something approaching the broad side of a barn doing something genuinely useful (ie taking down their decent players who were able to make it through the forward ranks to attack bases). I don't have a problem with the power node vulnerability myself, aside from the notification, which I think really needs to be fixed. One or two marines keeping half an eye on power nodes is often all it takes in public servers to give you sufficient early warning of the impending doom and assemble sufficient troops to deter the threat.
In fact, in that very gather that I joined, which lasted 55 minutes for the first half when I was marine (!), during the second round, we did a spawn rush as aliens (yeah I know, cheap, but many of us had to go!), and didn't bother with the power at all. Rush the CC, and it's GG. Okay, that was early game, not later on...
When comparing pub play with more organised (and smaller) games, the main difference apart from teamwork and marines' ability to aim is that it's much rarer for people to rush power nodes in pugs. You can do more damage to the enemy economy much more rapidly by focussing on the extractors, IPs, CC, arms lab, obs, armoury etc. Occasionally it's worth taking down the power, but it leaves you quite vulnerable to incoming marines when you do so, and it also means you're not out on the field being more useful.
Is there an underlying reason for this difference I've noticed (albeit an anecdotal one)? I don't know. It might stem from server sizes.
in a game against competant marines its difficult to ninja a power node, marines however arc training a hive in around 8 seconds is just as deadly, maybe more so because you konw all the alien structures are gone in the same amount of time and whilst its a good idea to use marines to defend the arcs you can send them in without marines having your marines hit something at the same time
also 4 exos can effectively destroy a hive very quickly
Maybe you missed the part about 8 seconds. If the commander had a reasonable time to respond and proper notifications, maybe YOU might have a point. The comm has 4 seconds to beacon. Even beaconing is a big loss when Exos are in the field. It's basically win-win for the aliens here.
Marines had 8 seconds to phase back. Which is not a lot of time.
^ I'll say it again - people need more effective obs placements in order to buy them advance warning time. The rush could not have been detected until the onos was in obs range (which was centered around the comm station). Most comms place that starting obs in the back of the base with two goals in mind: putting the obs out of harm's way, and 'covering' the marine base with the passive scan radius.
EDIT: Made a quick image to illustrate my point.
The passive scan of that obs (left pic) only covers a small portion of the hallways on either side of Control. ALL base rushes succeed mainly because the other team does not see it coming, and does not anticipate the possibility. Imagine if you could look on your map and see red dots moving around at the end of the hallway that leads from Control to Topographical - that's the kind of visibility that you get from placing an obs right by the extractor. That buys you at least 3 - 4 seconds of extra reaction time before the rush gets inside the base itself.
Then you start thinking, what if you had an obs in the alcove near the power node? That covers all of that hallway leading to Skylights. Some comms think to themselves: "it's an extra obs, I'm not wasting 15 res". That's when a bile gorge like me sneaks up and takes out the power because I'm not detected on the obs passive scan until it's too late and I'm already in range. I do this ALL the time, every single time I play NS2 on aliens. I always skulk and scout out the base I want to hit, then gorge up just outside the lone obs scan radius (that obs is usually placed in the middle of the marine base) and wreak havoc. My success rate takes a huge nosedive when there are at least 2 obs spaced out properly to cover entrances.
Just last night, I played a match on refinery where the marines were overpowering the aliens and had 3 bases all fully teched up (flow, pipe, containment), plus exos, JPs, ARCs moving to Turbine, etc. I decided to hit flow (always the number 1 target on this map) and went scouting it out. The one obs was put by the power node and covered a good portion of falls approach and most of the stairway to extraction. However, I actually gorged up in exchange just behind some pipes and waited until there was a lull in the action before charging in and hitting the power node with bile. I managed to kill that power node 4 times in a row, and it was this disruption that greatly contributed to our eventual comeback as the rest of my team took containment back. If the comm had a second obs to the top left of the comm station, I would have been forced to run in from further up the exchange corridor, giving much more advance warning to the marine team that a gorge was on the way. Almost every single time I'm detected on passive scan, there is a marine or two moving to intercept me before I can do any real damage....
All the insanity revolving around powernodes tells me they need to just go away.
Then what weakness for Marines would you recommend to replace it then? (Since aliens have to build on cyst etc) Marines have to lay down carpets lol?
Get rid of cysts as well, neither aspect of the game add anything but irritation and frustration. Nobody says OH MAN PLACING THESE CYST ARE SO FREAKING AWESOME OMG DID YOU SEE THAT ONE BURST BECAUSE IT WAS CLOSE TO ANOTHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Either both go, or power nodes stay the same and infestation loss disables alien structures. inb4 asymmetry bs
What I would like to see is that broken cyst chains die from both of the unconnected ends instead of the one closest to the hive.
That would start the decay of the important structures (RTs) faster.
That buys you at least 3 - 4 seconds of extra reaction time before the rush gets inside the base itself.
3-4 extra seconds? Well, problem solved then.
That's when a bile gorge like me sneaks up and takes out the power because I'm not detected on the obs passive scan until it's too late and I'm already in range. I do this ALL the time, every single time I play NS2 on aliens.
Guess you don't have a vested interest in this at all then.
I managed to kill that power node 4 times in a row, and it was this disruption that greatly contributed to our eventual comeback as the rest of my team took containment back.
Yeah, that's totally balanced and not OP. One person should be able to suicide repeatedly and turn a loss into a win.
Sorry for the sarcasm in this post... but. I mean you're making my points for me. I think you doth protest too much, writing a defense guide for a tactic you know is overly effective.
That buys you at least 3 - 4 seconds of extra reaction time before the rush gets inside the base itself.
3-4 extra seconds? Well, problem solved then.
That's when a bile gorge like me sneaks up and takes out the power because I'm not detected on the obs passive scan until it's too late and I'm already in range. I do this ALL the time, every single time I play NS2 on aliens.
Guess you don't have a vested interest in this at all then.
I managed to kill that power node 4 times in a row, and it was this disruption that greatly contributed to our eventual comeback as the rest of my team took containment back.
Yeah, that's totally balanced and not OP. One person should be able to suicide repeatedly and turn a loss into a win.
Sorry for the sarcasm in this post... but. I mean you're making my points for me. I think you doth protest too much, writing a defense guide for a tactic you know is overly effective.
Your liberal use of sarcasm is unwarranted.
Did I ever say that the obs and 3-4 seconds of extra time is going to save your base? It's a basic strategy of RTS games to peel back the 'fog of war' as much as possible so you can see what's going on. In my opinion, based on the video posted, nobody could have seen the rush coming until the aliens were literally at the doorstep. I'm just pointing out that having an obs in the right spot buys extra time for people to phase back quickly, or for a beacon to occur.
Also, I DO have a vested interest in this and it is not what you think it is.
I like bile bomb the way it is, and at the same time I don't want to see marines continually lose just because they allowed a bile gorge to get so close to their base before being detected - which leads to whining, people quitting the game, calls for bile bomb nerf, ect. You're short sighted if you truly believe that all I want is to get my kicks out of biling marine bases into the stone age. All this talk about how to counter a bile rush is not just to stroke my ego, or anybody else's ego. I honestly want to show marines how to counter said rush.
That's not to say that I don't enjoy biling a marine base into the ground. I admit that I love it. But I also understand that it seems OP at times... a 10 res lifeform singlehandedly turning the tide of the game, it sounds very OP on paper. But after many hours of playing as a ninja bile gorge, I have also played many games where I simply can't do as I please to the marine base because of a variety of reasons - the top 3 being advance warning of the bile rush incoming, nanoshield, and marines responding to kill me before I can do any real damage.
*********
(EDITED for more clarity):
You CAN shut down bile bomb gorges, and my defense guide is just a suggestion on how to do it. It's not going to work all the time, and maybe there IS a solution to all of this beyond just l2p, but I'm still waiting to hear it. Explain to me why bile bomb is OP and why the points I mentioned in my guide do not solve the problem, and I will listen. Just do it in a calm, logical fashion and not just spew vitriol at me like an untutored lout.
(/EDIT)
**********
Whether this means that people need to get better at marine comming, or that UWE needs to buff/add marines a bit... I don't know.
And so....I don't want to see UWE nerf something as an easy way to up the marine win rate, and I also don't want marines to feel like they're completely helpless against what they perceive to be OP. That's basically why I feel so strongly about this issue revolving around bile bomb.
Part of an ideal solution is to point out a significant reason why bile rushes... why ANY rush... succeeds, and that is lack of advance warning. Aliens have drifters, pretty much the ideal kind of advance warning in NS2 - think Protoss Observers. Marines get to use stationary power-dependent 15 res obs with very little armor and a relatively short passive scan radius...and they can also spend 3 res on a scan anywhere on the map. Asymmetry aside, I feel that the marine method of advance warning is a bit lacking compared to drifters, but you work with what you have....
In theory, a slim chance, but think about damage outputs for marines:
-Arcs
-Exosuits
-Shotguns
-Flamers
All easy to hit from a distance.
Infested powernodes would have to have different hp/armor values than normal powernodes to balance. You could even add another damage type that makes it strong against ranged weapons, but weak against melee (e.g. it'd be faster to run in and axe the infested powernode than trying to snipe it from a distance).
Also, I don't think it necessarily needs to be related to the powernode. It could be an alien structure that provides the bacterium necessary to keeping alien eggs and structures alive. Kill the bacterium structure and the nearby alien eggs and structures start to die.
The key is giving the aliens a critical weakness similar to the powernode as a way to introduce more strategic variety and balance the sides.
In theory, a slim chance, but think about damage outputs for marines:
-Arcs
-Exosuits
-Shotguns
-Flamers
All easy to hit from a distance.
Infested powernodes would have to have different hp/armor values than normal powernodes to balance. You could even add another damage type that makes it strong against ranged weapons, but weak against melee (e.g. it'd be faster to run in and axe the infested powernode than trying to snipe it from a distance).
Also, I don't think it necessarily needs to be related to the powernode. It could be an alien structure that provides the bacterium necessary to keeping alien eggs and structures alive. Kill the bacterium structure and the nearby alien eggs and structures start to die.
The key is giving the aliens a critical weakness similar to the powernode as a way to introduce more strategic variety and balance the sides.
Then you give the thing so much health it's pointless to hit, or a small place-able that can very easily be killed by a shotgun jet-packer rush. Marines in general have a higher output of damage, which means weak points in alien defenses can fall apart quicker than weak points for marines. (yes, even the power node can go down slower than a cara upgrade.
Explain to me why bile bomb is OP and why the points I mentioned in my guide do not solve the problem, and I will listen.
II hope you don't mind if I jump in here. Why is bile bomb overpowered? (and my points are not solely related to the issue mentioned in the OP)
First, bile bomb doesn't scale. That is why all it takes is one bile bomb to take out an entire sentry nest like it was butter. Same with MACs. Some people say MACs are a counter to bile bomb, but clearly they haven't seen how fast you can kill a MAC with bile bomb. The strength of bile bomb is fine if it only had to attack command chairs with 3000 health and 1500 armor. The problem is that for bile bomb to be effective against a command chair, it becomes overpowered versus lesser structures and marine units.
Second, bile bomb stacks. Not only does the gorge get to stack his OWN bile bombs, if he is with a buddy those bile bombs stack as well. You can have a dozen or more stacks of bile bomb ticking away on the target, doing massive amounts of damage.
Third, bile bomb is a DOT (Damage Over Time) attack. While DOTs are not inherently overpowered in principle, in this case - with lack of scaling and unlimited stacking - this turns a powerful attack into an overpowered attack. More importantly, this makes any reaction to such an attack moot. You and your gorge buddy can spam the power node with bile and the marines can kill you 10 times over and it won't stop the damage from being done. Unless a marine is actually camping the power node, the attack can NOT be stopped. The DOT effect can not be prematurely ended.
Forth, some people mention Nanoshield. Well didn't we have a big debate over Nanoshield since there is a potentiionally huge nerf coming? (In case people haven't heard, the *possible* change is that they are going to decrease the Nanoshield duration to 4 seconds and increase cooldown to 12 sec.) So, if this change does go live, it's another excuse that is busted. Nanoshield won't be of much use at all.
Lastly, the flaw in the logic regarding multiple observatories, is that it assumes the commander will be watching the map near marine start every single second. While your OBS layout is a good one, it's not going to give you the advance notice you think it will. The extra distance those OBS cover would be traversed in 1 second on the west side and 2 seconds on the east side. That extra 1 or 2 seconds doesn't make much of a difference.
Bottom line, there is no viable counter to this strat. Are there counters? Sure. The problem is that all involve actions that put the marine team at an inherent disadvantage. Sitting a couple marines at each tech point to guard against 'sneak attacks' on power nodes will only reduce their numbers on the front line and assure the marines won't have the manpower to overcome their opponents. Even sitting an EXO in base isn't a sure thing given how pathetic its armor is versus bile bomb. (An Onos can kill an EXO in ~7 seconds. A *single* Gorge can do it in ~10 seconds. You can imagine how fast it will be with two gorges.)
There is no viable counter to this. None. Any counter I've seen revolves around marines intentionally handicapping themselves by keeping marines on defence. The time it takes to be warned of an attack, to communicate the attack, and for the marines to respond (keeping in mind there is a 1-2 second delay when you use your mic for the other people to hear you) makes a reactive response to such an attack inferior.
Sitting a couple marines at each tech point to guard against 'sneak attacks' on power nodes will only reduce their numbers on the front line and assure the marines won't have the manpower to overcome their opponents
I don't think marines need man power to overcome aliens though. A large arc push with a single Exo and 2-3 marines with welders can be incredibly effective. That leaves 4+ marines for guard duty/reinforcements for the assault. Part of being a marine is protecting extractors and the base.
How should the aliens respond in the video with out the Bile Bomb rush? They have two hives separated by a marine emplacement and are getting hit with Exo's there is no viable frontal assault. This is the asymmetric gameplay I came for. Marines are supposed to push the aliens and aliens are supposed to sneak behind and ambush. This flanking power play adds depth to the game.
They took a risk with a multi-hive assault and were hoping the aliens were going to play like marines, the group attacking pipe should have been covering warehouse and control. I think they were hoping to draw aliens away from sub by attacking pipe, but the aliens did the right thing and counter pushed both bases. That is how aliens are supposed to work.
To me an Onos and two gorges should be a serious threat anywhere they attack, especially an empty base. Just like if Aliens ignore an ARC train it is their fault when they loose their hive.
I should say I agree that Bile is a bit OP but I think it is a critical mechanic to how this game functions. At most I think a buff to power node armor maybe increase the time of the rush in the video from 8 to 10 seconds might help a little. Or even an upgradable power node for 5 res increase armor of node by 50% or something. I think it would have to be a non-permanent upgrade so that when power is lost and rebuilt you have to pay to upgrade it again but that could be a solution. Again while balance might need some tweaking all this talk of removing nodes and infestation would just make the game too vanilla for me.
That's exactly the problem with bile, bile in itself wouldn't be OP if the gorge cost 15-20 res, 15 res might hurt comp players but can be made up for with skulk play, increasing gorge cost once second hive is up would be a more viable option, nerfing bile would be too, fixing obs passive scan would go even further and putting the power node on 2 warnings instead of 1 at 40% or lower would just about fix it but in this particular patch suicide gorging simply works, nearly every other comp game that lasts past 15-20 minutes features a suicide gorge or two that will take out a proto/AA/obs/4-5 arcs/phase gates, 10 pres gorge wiping out 20+ tres worth of shit is more than cost effective.
So I ran across this today... I single it out because it's a prime example of what I consider to be one of the most broken aspects of the game.
1. Nano Shield wasn't used.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
LoL. if ALL of the above you MIGHT be able to save the base. #2, you lose guns (and/or welders) at the front which defeats the purpose of a large breakout to maybe salvage a win. #3 and #4 see #2. #5 won't help since the gorges will still take the power node down.
Using all the mitigation measures available and you still MIGHT be able save the base but you WILL lose your forward momentum.
I've seen that before and agree. on Refinery Gorge in vent can bile bomb the node in Conduit. A gorge also bileing from the conduit/turbine junction. The second a marine was even able to shoot them the gorges were able to run and hide. This was all before the 10min mark. That's not OP?
Sitting a couple marines at each tech point to guard against 'sneak attacks' on power nodes will only reduce their numbers on the front line and assure the marines won't have the manpower to overcome their opponents
I don't think marines need man power to overcome aliens though. A large arc push with a single Exo and 2-3 marines with welders can be incredibly effective.
Except its not. I've seen on ENSL that be stopped by 2 gorges several times.
So I ran across this today... I single it out because it's a prime example of what I consider to be one of the most broken aspects of the game.
1. Nano Shield wasn't used.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
LoL. if ALL of the above you MIGHT be able to save the base. #2, you lose guns (and/or welders) at the front which defeats the purpose of a large breakout to maybe salvage a win. #3 and #4 see #2. #5 won't help since the gorges will still take the power node down.
Using all the mitigation measures available and you still MIGHT be able save the base but you WILL lose your forward momentum.
I've seen that before and agree. on Refinery Gorge in vent can bile bomb the node in Conduit. A gorge also bileing from the conduit/turbine junction. The second a marine was even able to shoot them the gorges were able to run and hide. This was all before the 10min mark. That's not OP?
Sitting a couple marines at each tech point to guard against 'sneak attacks' on power nodes will only reduce their numbers on the front line and assure the marines won't have the manpower to overcome their opponents
I don't think marines need man power to overcome aliens though. A large arc push with a single Exo and 2-3 marines with welders can be incredibly effective.
Except its not. I've seen on ENSL that be stopped by 2 gorges several times.
and I've seen 2 gorges die to 2 marines many more times. the eco can't push in on gorges? kill the gorges with marines.
I just finished reading through this post (some very well thought out and constructive posts btw) and had an idea pop up in my head. Keep in mind that I really haven't thought out the ramifications of this and I'm not sure this solves the problem at all (or even helps), but here it goes;
NS2 used to have redundant 'powerpacks', like elodea mentioned previously,
Redundancy
In order to maintain the integrity of some of the positive aesthetic effects listed below, powernodes cannot have redundancies. NS2 at one point had 15 tres powerpacks that provided redundant power to linked structures, but these were removed and turned into sentry batteries. To this end, they diverge from the design of protoss pylons, and arguably for the worse. See Artosis Pylon
that would provide power to buildings even if the powernode went out.
The idea I thought of almost involves bringing this redundancy back, but on a much smaller scale. Instead of having a dedicated structure used to provide redundant power to many buildings, what if that redundancy could be bought as a building upgrade? For example, an armory will have the option to research an upgrade that will leave it powered on even if the local powernode goes out. This could cost tres and require time as needed to facilitate game balance and could be extended to any marine structure for different research times and costs.
It was immediately apparent to me that this sounds like a very OP idea, but countermeasures can be put in place (and to some degree already exist) to mitigate this. First, since structures require power to do *anything*, this research would not be available until the structure has power at some time before the research is finished. This prevents marines from building structures without first building powernodes. Second, this wouldn't have any effect on environmental effects. The marines still have the oh-shit moment from the lighting and it's still stressful because only some of the structures operate (if the commander even invested). Thirdly, buildings can't do anything else while upgrade and it sets the marines back in time and tres, if they choose to invest.
It does allow marines to invest in 'insurance' so that if they get powernode rushed, they aren't completely crippled. It does definitely add to marine turtle-ability, which is an issue. (Although, even with turtle-ability, you can't win with just that. At some point you have to un-turtle. It does allow the marines to produce a boring, drawn out round however) This doesn't particularly improve marine offense at all, but it does severely limit the powernode alpha-strike tactic that aliens sometimes rely on for last ditch desperate wins.
The two mechanics of this idea that I really like are; 1) the marine commander gets to choose what he feels is most vital to the team, spending resources on upgrades and offense, or investing in insurance (even though the structures to insure are pretty obvious most of the time), so there exists some level of decision making and management. 2) The aliens have no idea if the marines invested or not and if they did, what they invested in. This not only makes powernode blitzes less effective, but also reduces them to a gamble for the aliens. I would imagine obs/phase blitzes to be much more common from this. (for better or for worse)
So if anyone wants to, play with this idea for a while. I'm not advocating it, or saying it's a good idea, I'm simply asking the community 'What do you think this would accomplish, good or bad, if anything?' It does add in some power redundancy back to the game, it does increase the general tres demand for marines, and it does unfortunately add more work for the marine commander, of whom we all know already has too much.
I just finished reading through this post (some very well thought out and constructive posts btw) and had an idea pop up in my head. Keep in mind that I really haven't thought out the ramifications of this and I'm not sure this solves the problem at all (or even helps), but here it goes;
NS2 used to have redundant 'powerpacks', like elodea mentioned previously,
Redundancy
In order to maintain the integrity of some of the positive aesthetic effects listed below, powernodes cannot have redundancies. NS2 at one point had 15 tres powerpacks that provided redundant power to linked structures, but these were removed and turned into sentry batteries. To this end, they diverge from the design of protoss pylons, and arguably for the worse. See Artosis Pylon
that would provide power to buildings even if the powernode went out.
The idea I thought of almost involves bringing this redundancy back, but on a much smaller scale. Instead of having a dedicated structure used to provide redundant power to many buildings, what if that redundancy could be bought as a building upgrade? For example, an armory will have the option to research an upgrade that will leave it powered on even if the local powernode goes out. This could cost tres and require time as needed to facilitate game balance and could be extended to any marine structure for different research times and costs.
It was immediately apparent to me that this sounds like a very OP idea, but countermeasures can be put in place (and to some degree already exist) to mitigate this. First, since structures require power to do *anything*, this research would not be available until the structure has power at some time before the research is finished. This prevents marines from building structures without first building powernodes. Second, this wouldn't have any effect on environmental effects. The marines still have the oh-shit moment from the lighting and it's still stressful because only some of the structures operate (if the commander even invested). Thirdly, buildings can't do anything else while upgrade and it sets the marines back in time and tres, if they choose to invest.
It does allow marines to invest in 'insurance' so that if they get powernode rushed, they aren't completely crippled. It does definitely add to marine turtle-ability, which is an issue. (Although, even with turtle-ability, you can't win with just that. At some point you have to un-turtle. It does allow the marines to produce a boring, drawn out round however) This doesn't particularly improve marine offense at all, but it does severely limit the powernode alpha-strike tactic that aliens sometimes rely on for last ditch desperate wins.
The two mechanics of this idea that I really like are; 1) the marine commander gets to choose what he feels is most vital to the team, spending resources on upgrades and offense, or investing in insurance (even though the structures to insure are pretty obvious most of the time), so there exists some level of decision making and management. 2) The aliens have no idea if the marines invested or not and if they did, what they invested in. This not only makes powernode blitzes less effective, but also reduces them to a gamble for the aliens. I would imagine obs/phase blitzes to be much more common from this. (for better or for worse)
So if anyone wants to, play with this idea for a while. I'm not advocating it, or saying it's a good idea, I'm simply asking the community 'What do you think this would accomplish, good or bad, if anything?' It does add in some power redundancy back to the game, it does increase the general tres demand for marines, and it does unfortunately add more work for the marine commander, of whom we all know already has too much.
1. Nano Shield wasn't used.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
Maybe you missed the part about 8 seconds. If the commander had a reasonable time to respond and proper notifications, maybe YOU might have a point. The comm has 4 seconds to beacon. Even beaconing is a big loss when Exos are in the field. It's basically win-win for the aliens here.
Marines had 8 seconds to phase back. Which is not a lot of time.
Tell me what static defense parked at base would have deflected that attack? One or two marines will just die to the Onos. A dual exo might have a shot if the entrances are blocked.
Nano might have slowed it down a few seconds.
MACs will just cutely blow up when biled. So I don't see your point here.
The only things that could have been realistically done are beacon (not desirable) or park 75+ pres as static defense (not desirable either). Aliens do not seem to have any such requirements.
It's more like 13 seconds from when they entered obs range. If 1 marine is there the comm sees it's an onos and beacons.
This is just the usual complaining about a loss when the team didn't do anything to prevent it. It seemed like a bad marine team anyway, based on the map.
It's the same people who complain that it's hard to stop a marine turtle, yet they don't use Drifter enzyme, spores/umbra, or hallucinations. There are plenty of tools available, but not many comm's use them.
@AmbiguousMonk, the problem with that kind of redundancy is that it becomes a resource sink. At present if you add up all the costs of all the possible upgrades on both sides, they are within 10 t-res of one another. (560 for aliens and 550 for marines) If marines had to start paying 5 t-res for EVERY building just to account for an overpowered game mechanic, then it causes an economic imbalance.
Bile bomb is a problem, and I can assure you that the win ratio won't change until the developers address it. If not by nerfing bile bomb, then by providing some kind of method to prevent these attacks. Let's wait and see how balance swings with the update. Something tells me that marines aren't going to be winning more games after aliens get phase gates 'gorge tunnels'.
@AmbiguousMonk, the problem with that kind of redundancy is that it becomes a resource sink. At present if you add up all the costs of all the possible upgrades on both sides, they are within 10 t-res of one another. (560 for aliens and 550 for marines) If marines had to start paying 5 t-res for EVERY building just to account for an overpowered game mechanic, then it causes an economic imbalance.
Bile bomb is a problem, and I can assure you that the win ratio won't change until the developers address it. If not by nerfing bile bomb, then by providing some kind of method to prevent these attacks. Let's wait and see how balance swings with the update. Something tells me that marines aren't going to be winning more games after aliens get phase gates 'gorge tunnels'.
Oh ye of little faith, marines get railguns too. Lets wait and see
Comments
I keep hearing how if only marines had a couple people guarding base this would never happen. Well if it was 9v7 the marines could have 2 on base D and not be crippled on the front lines.
It also adds in another asymmetric element to the game. Right now I'm for anything that can fix this.
2. Nobody was defending base.
3. Nobody phased back.
4. Beacon wasn't used.
5. No MAC's welding. Just 2/3 can be an annoyance.
If all of the above were done, you might have a point.
I don't think you should count the build time with a Ninja PG. It's usually 1-2 Marines sneaking it up, so the time should start when they attack anything in the Hive.
briatx, I recently played a few pub games with average (pub) teams. Comm'd one, didn't Comm the other. The team make up did change between games. Both games the Aliens repeatedly attack with double gorge(bile), gorge(bile)+lerk(gas)+Onos, gorge(bile)+skulk+skulk. Marines won the one I Comm'd, lost the one with a different Comm. I don't think I did anything special and Comm'd below average. The difference was Nano-Shields, Beacon timing, Healthpack/Ammo support, and Tech path (less waste).
When the double Gorge+Skulk attacked, I checked the number of Marines defending (meaning any Marine, in base, responding to the attack), shielded the Power node if less than 3 Marines defending at the time of the attack, prepared to hit Beacon if another Alien (or two) showed up. Ended up only having to hit Beacon only once the entire round. The Aliens made about 7 more attempts before Marines dominated most of the map. Dropped the Aliens down to one Hive with a PG+Armory at a map choke point.
Second game the Comm had a better start (4-5 nodes early, rather than 3 for me, and secured 3 Tech Points quickly), built Chairs in each base, Mines early, GL early. When the same group (makeup) of Aliens did a double Gorge Bile attack, the Comm didn't Nano-Shield anything, didn't Beacon (seem indecisive), and didn't drop meds. It was completely on the Marines to PG through and save the Base; the Comm would just give late, frantic warnings. Marines dropped down to two bases and went from being slightly ahead to slightly behind. The Marines recovered the third Base, only to have another Base attacked by a Gorge+Lerk+Skulk. Again, the Comm didn't Nano-Shield anything (even players PGing in), no meds/ammo and really late Beacon. The game went on like that, until the Comm did an unnecessary Beacon, stopping a Ninja PG on Hive and an assault on another, pretty much killing our best opportunities to regain map control.
If the Comm had used the available tools, they could have possibly made it easier to defend and attack, save a few Tech Points and many Resource nodes, and possibly won the round.
These are the kinda games I see too often. Comms that use their tools, don't loses their minds during sneak attacks, easily deal with Bile Bomb rushes. Comms who don't use their tools, are forgetful, jumpy and indecisive can't deal with Bile Bomb rushes, much less any coordinated assault. It makes it very hard to see Bile Bomb as the problem. I do see the alerts as a problem. Aliens Hive literally screams when touched, while a Power nodes alert might be overshadowed by a orders request.
Also, I know it's all anecdotal, but it's what I'm experiencing when I play.
Maybe you missed the part about 8 seconds. If the commander had a reasonable time to respond and proper notifications, maybe YOU might have a point. The comm has 4 seconds to beacon. Even beaconing is a big loss when Exos are in the field. It's basically win-win for the aliens here.
Marines had 8 seconds to phase back. Which is not a lot of time.
Tell me what static defense parked at base would have deflected that attack? One or two marines will just die to the Onos. A dual exo might have a shot if the entrances are blocked.
Nano might have slowed it down a few seconds.
MACs will just cutely blow up when biled. So I don't see your point here.
The only things that could have been realistically done are beacon (not desirable) or park 75+ pres as static defense (not desirable either). Aliens do not seem to have any such requirements.
Well, thanks for the reports. I just wonder why I don't see "Ninja PG" used as often as "Bile rushes". I mean there has to be a reason for that, right?
I certainly don't think bile bomb rushes are INDEFENSIBLE. I think they are OP and imbalanced and that no team should have a 20 res, 2 player, 10 second basewrecker. That's my basic stance. But if one side has something like that then you need to give the other side a similar capability or an equally cheap defense.
Good thing the gorge is getting buffed next patch. "I sure picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue..."
- Equalizing the threat of a base-crippling backstab
- Give a viable path for a come-from-behind victory
In theory, a slim chance, but think about damage outputs for marines:
-Arcs
-Exosuits
-Shotguns
-Flamers
All easy to hit from a distance.
I can't help but compare this to ns1, where a single alien in a lone marinebase could create havok too but taking out the whole base in a mere 20 seconds was not possible. If you went for the obs, the marines could still pg in. If you went for the pg, there was beacon. So smart rambo aliens went for the expensive structures. If the advanced armory went down, that was often a crippling blow but it did not end the game immidiatly.
The point is to make players fight players not sneak around them and attack their buildings.
Then what weakness for Marines would you recommend to replace it then? (Since aliens have to build on cyst etc) Marines have to lay down carpets lol?
I was in a game with Savant (I assume it was you...?) on Monday before my gather started. I was mainly playing this role in that game, keeping fades from attacking terminal, cafe and locker (which I'd managed to secure on my own while half the team ran off doing I have no idea what...). I realised that we needed someone who could at least hit something approaching the broad side of a barn doing something genuinely useful (ie taking down their decent players who were able to make it through the forward ranks to attack bases). I don't have a problem with the power node vulnerability myself, aside from the notification, which I think really needs to be fixed. One or two marines keeping half an eye on power nodes is often all it takes in public servers to give you sufficient early warning of the impending doom and assemble sufficient troops to deter the threat.
In fact, in that very gather that I joined, which lasted 55 minutes for the first half when I was marine (!), during the second round, we did a spawn rush as aliens (yeah I know, cheap, but many of us had to go!), and didn't bother with the power at all. Rush the CC, and it's GG. Okay, that was early game, not later on...
When comparing pub play with more organised (and smaller) games, the main difference apart from teamwork and marines' ability to aim is that it's much rarer for people to rush power nodes in pugs. You can do more damage to the enemy economy much more rapidly by focussing on the extractors, IPs, CC, arms lab, obs, armoury etc. Occasionally it's worth taking down the power, but it leaves you quite vulnerable to incoming marines when you do so, and it also means you're not out on the field being more useful.
Is there an underlying reason for this difference I've noticed (albeit an anecdotal one)? I don't know. It might stem from server sizes.
also 4 exos can effectively destroy a hive very quickly
^ I'll say it again - people need more effective obs placements in order to buy them advance warning time. The rush could not have been detected until the onos was in obs range (which was centered around the comm station). Most comms place that starting obs in the back of the base with two goals in mind: putting the obs out of harm's way, and 'covering' the marine base with the passive scan radius.
EDIT: Made a quick image to illustrate my point.
The passive scan of that obs (left pic) only covers a small portion of the hallways on either side of Control. ALL base rushes succeed mainly because the other team does not see it coming, and does not anticipate the possibility. Imagine if you could look on your map and see red dots moving around at the end of the hallway that leads from Control to Topographical - that's the kind of visibility that you get from placing an obs right by the extractor. That buys you at least 3 - 4 seconds of extra reaction time before the rush gets inside the base itself.
Then you start thinking, what if you had an obs in the alcove near the power node? That covers all of that hallway leading to Skylights. Some comms think to themselves: "it's an extra obs, I'm not wasting 15 res". That's when a bile gorge like me sneaks up and takes out the power because I'm not detected on the obs passive scan until it's too late and I'm already in range. I do this ALL the time, every single time I play NS2 on aliens. I always skulk and scout out the base I want to hit, then gorge up just outside the lone obs scan radius (that obs is usually placed in the middle of the marine base) and wreak havoc. My success rate takes a huge nosedive when there are at least 2 obs spaced out properly to cover entrances.
Just last night, I played a match on refinery where the marines were overpowering the aliens and had 3 bases all fully teched up (flow, pipe, containment), plus exos, JPs, ARCs moving to Turbine, etc. I decided to hit flow (always the number 1 target on this map) and went scouting it out. The one obs was put by the power node and covered a good portion of falls approach and most of the stairway to extraction. However, I actually gorged up in exchange just behind some pipes and waited until there was a lull in the action before charging in and hitting the power node with bile. I managed to kill that power node 4 times in a row, and it was this disruption that greatly contributed to our eventual comeback as the rest of my team took containment back. If the comm had a second obs to the top left of the comm station, I would have been forced to run in from further up the exchange corridor, giving much more advance warning to the marine team that a gorge was on the way. Almost every single time I'm detected on passive scan, there is a marine or two moving to intercept me before I can do any real damage....
Get rid of cysts as well, neither aspect of the game add anything but irritation and frustration. Nobody says OH MAN PLACING THESE CYST ARE SO FREAKING AWESOME OMG DID YOU SEE THAT ONE BURST BECAUSE IT WAS CLOSE TO ANOTHERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Either both go, or power nodes stay the same and infestation loss disables alien structures. inb4 asymmetry bs
What I would like to see is that broken cyst chains die from both of the unconnected ends instead of the one closest to the hive.
That would start the decay of the important structures (RTs) faster.
3-4 extra seconds? Well, problem solved then.
Guess you don't have a vested interest in this at all then.
Yeah, that's totally balanced and not OP. One person should be able to suicide repeatedly and turn a loss into a win.
Sorry for the sarcasm in this post... but. I mean you're making my points for me. I think you doth protest too much, writing a defense guide for a tactic you know is overly effective.
Your liberal use of sarcasm is unwarranted.
Did I ever say that the obs and 3-4 seconds of extra time is going to save your base? It's a basic strategy of RTS games to peel back the 'fog of war' as much as possible so you can see what's going on. In my opinion, based on the video posted, nobody could have seen the rush coming until the aliens were literally at the doorstep. I'm just pointing out that having an obs in the right spot buys extra time for people to phase back quickly, or for a beacon to occur.
Also, I DO have a vested interest in this and it is not what you think it is.
I like bile bomb the way it is, and at the same time I don't want to see marines continually lose just because they allowed a bile gorge to get so close to their base before being detected - which leads to whining, people quitting the game, calls for bile bomb nerf, ect. You're short sighted if you truly believe that all I want is to get my kicks out of biling marine bases into the stone age. All this talk about how to counter a bile rush is not just to stroke my ego, or anybody else's ego. I honestly want to show marines how to counter said rush.
That's not to say that I don't enjoy biling a marine base into the ground. I admit that I love it. But I also understand that it seems OP at times... a 10 res lifeform singlehandedly turning the tide of the game, it sounds very OP on paper. But after many hours of playing as a ninja bile gorge, I have also played many games where I simply can't do as I please to the marine base because of a variety of reasons - the top 3 being advance warning of the bile rush incoming, nanoshield, and marines responding to kill me before I can do any real damage.
*********
(EDITED for more clarity):
You CAN shut down bile bomb gorges, and my defense guide is just a suggestion on how to do it. It's not going to work all the time, and maybe there IS a solution to all of this beyond just l2p, but I'm still waiting to hear it. Explain to me why bile bomb is OP and why the points I mentioned in my guide do not solve the problem, and I will listen. Just do it in a calm, logical fashion and not just spew vitriol at me like an untutored lout.
(/EDIT)
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Whether this means that people need to get better at marine comming, or that UWE needs to buff/add marines a bit... I don't know.
And so....I don't want to see UWE nerf something as an easy way to up the marine win rate, and I also don't want marines to feel like they're completely helpless against what they perceive to be OP. That's basically why I feel so strongly about this issue revolving around bile bomb.
Part of an ideal solution is to point out a significant reason why bile rushes... why ANY rush... succeeds, and that is lack of advance warning. Aliens have drifters, pretty much the ideal kind of advance warning in NS2 - think Protoss Observers. Marines get to use stationary power-dependent 15 res obs with very little armor and a relatively short passive scan radius...and they can also spend 3 res on a scan anywhere on the map. Asymmetry aside, I feel that the marine method of advance warning is a bit lacking compared to drifters, but you work with what you have....
Also, I don't think it necessarily needs to be related to the powernode. It could be an alien structure that provides the bacterium necessary to keeping alien eggs and structures alive. Kill the bacterium structure and the nearby alien eggs and structures start to die.
The key is giving the aliens a critical weakness similar to the powernode as a way to introduce more strategic variety and balance the sides.
Then you give the thing so much health it's pointless to hit, or a small place-able that can very easily be killed by a shotgun jet-packer rush. Marines in general have a higher output of damage, which means weak points in alien defenses can fall apart quicker than weak points for marines. (yes, even the power node can go down slower than a cara upgrade.
First, bile bomb doesn't scale. That is why all it takes is one bile bomb to take out an entire sentry nest like it was butter. Same with MACs. Some people say MACs are a counter to bile bomb, but clearly they haven't seen how fast you can kill a MAC with bile bomb. The strength of bile bomb is fine if it only had to attack command chairs with 3000 health and 1500 armor. The problem is that for bile bomb to be effective against a command chair, it becomes overpowered versus lesser structures and marine units.
Second, bile bomb stacks. Not only does the gorge get to stack his OWN bile bombs, if he is with a buddy those bile bombs stack as well. You can have a dozen or more stacks of bile bomb ticking away on the target, doing massive amounts of damage.
Third, bile bomb is a DOT (Damage Over Time) attack. While DOTs are not inherently overpowered in principle, in this case - with lack of scaling and unlimited stacking - this turns a powerful attack into an overpowered attack. More importantly, this makes any reaction to such an attack moot. You and your gorge buddy can spam the power node with bile and the marines can kill you 10 times over and it won't stop the damage from being done. Unless a marine is actually camping the power node, the attack can NOT be stopped. The DOT effect can not be prematurely ended.
Forth, some people mention Nanoshield. Well didn't we have a big debate over Nanoshield since there is a potentiionally huge nerf coming? (In case people haven't heard, the *possible* change is that they are going to decrease the Nanoshield duration to 4 seconds and increase cooldown to 12 sec.) So, if this change does go live, it's another excuse that is busted. Nanoshield won't be of much use at all.
Lastly, the flaw in the logic regarding multiple observatories, is that it assumes the commander will be watching the map near marine start every single second. While your OBS layout is a good one, it's not going to give you the advance notice you think it will. The extra distance those OBS cover would be traversed in 1 second on the west side and 2 seconds on the east side. That extra 1 or 2 seconds doesn't make much of a difference.
Bottom line, there is no viable counter to this strat. Are there counters? Sure. The problem is that all involve actions that put the marine team at an inherent disadvantage. Sitting a couple marines at each tech point to guard against 'sneak attacks' on power nodes will only reduce their numbers on the front line and assure the marines won't have the manpower to overcome their opponents. Even sitting an EXO in base isn't a sure thing given how pathetic its armor is versus bile bomb. (An Onos can kill an EXO in ~7 seconds. A *single* Gorge can do it in ~10 seconds. You can imagine how fast it will be with two gorges.)
There is no viable counter to this. None. Any counter I've seen revolves around marines intentionally handicapping themselves by keeping marines on defence. The time it takes to be warned of an attack, to communicate the attack, and for the marines to respond (keeping in mind there is a 1-2 second delay when you use your mic for the other people to hear you) makes a reactive response to such an attack inferior.
I don't think marines need man power to overcome aliens though. A large arc push with a single Exo and 2-3 marines with welders can be incredibly effective. That leaves 4+ marines for guard duty/reinforcements for the assault. Part of being a marine is protecting extractors and the base.
How should the aliens respond in the video with out the Bile Bomb rush? They have two hives separated by a marine emplacement and are getting hit with Exo's there is no viable frontal assault. This is the asymmetric gameplay I came for. Marines are supposed to push the aliens and aliens are supposed to sneak behind and ambush. This flanking power play adds depth to the game.
They took a risk with a multi-hive assault and were hoping the aliens were going to play like marines, the group attacking pipe should have been covering warehouse and control. I think they were hoping to draw aliens away from sub by attacking pipe, but the aliens did the right thing and counter pushed both bases. That is how aliens are supposed to work.
To me an Onos and two gorges should be a serious threat anywhere they attack, especially an empty base. Just like if Aliens ignore an ARC train it is their fault when they loose their hive.
I should say I agree that Bile is a bit OP but I think it is a critical mechanic to how this game functions. At most I think a buff to power node armor maybe increase the time of the rush in the video from 8 to 10 seconds might help a little. Or even an upgradable power node for 5 res increase armor of node by 50% or something. I think it would have to be a non-permanent upgrade so that when power is lost and rebuilt you have to pay to upgrade it again but that could be a solution. Again while balance might need some tweaking all this talk of removing nodes and infestation would just make the game too vanilla for me.
Long range.
High DPS.
AOE.
pick 2.
That's exactly the problem with bile, bile in itself wouldn't be OP if the gorge cost 15-20 res, 15 res might hurt comp players but can be made up for with skulk play, increasing gorge cost once second hive is up would be a more viable option, nerfing bile would be too, fixing obs passive scan would go even further and putting the power node on 2 warnings instead of 1 at 40% or lower would just about fix it but in this particular patch suicide gorging simply works, nearly every other comp game that lasts past 15-20 minutes features a suicide gorge or two that will take out a proto/AA/obs/4-5 arcs/phase gates, 10 pres gorge wiping out 20+ tres worth of shit is more than cost effective.
LoL. if ALL of the above you MIGHT be able to save the base. #2, you lose guns (and/or welders) at the front which defeats the purpose of a large breakout to maybe salvage a win. #3 and #4 see #2. #5 won't help since the gorges will still take the power node down.
Using all the mitigation measures available and you still MIGHT be able save the base but you WILL lose your forward momentum.
I've seen that before and agree. on Refinery Gorge in vent can bile bomb the node in Conduit. A gorge also bileing from the conduit/turbine junction. The second a marine was even able to shoot them the gorges were able to run and hide. This was all before the 10min mark. That's not OP?
Except its not. I've seen on ENSL that be stopped by 2 gorges several times.
and I've seen 2 gorges die to 2 marines many more times. the eco can't push in on gorges? kill the gorges with marines.
NS2 used to have redundant 'powerpacks', like elodea mentioned previously,
that would provide power to buildings even if the powernode went out.
The idea I thought of almost involves bringing this redundancy back, but on a much smaller scale. Instead of having a dedicated structure used to provide redundant power to many buildings, what if that redundancy could be bought as a building upgrade? For example, an armory will have the option to research an upgrade that will leave it powered on even if the local powernode goes out. This could cost tres and require time as needed to facilitate game balance and could be extended to any marine structure for different research times and costs.
It was immediately apparent to me that this sounds like a very OP idea, but countermeasures can be put in place (and to some degree already exist) to mitigate this. First, since structures require power to do *anything*, this research would not be available until the structure has power at some time before the research is finished. This prevents marines from building structures without first building powernodes. Second, this wouldn't have any effect on environmental effects. The marines still have the oh-shit moment from the lighting and it's still stressful because only some of the structures operate (if the commander even invested). Thirdly, buildings can't do anything else while upgrade and it sets the marines back in time and tres, if they choose to invest.
It does allow marines to invest in 'insurance' so that if they get powernode rushed, they aren't completely crippled. It does definitely add to marine turtle-ability, which is an issue. (Although, even with turtle-ability, you can't win with just that. At some point you have to un-turtle. It does allow the marines to produce a boring, drawn out round however) This doesn't particularly improve marine offense at all, but it does severely limit the powernode alpha-strike tactic that aliens sometimes rely on for last ditch desperate wins.
The two mechanics of this idea that I really like are; 1) the marine commander gets to choose what he feels is most vital to the team, spending resources on upgrades and offense, or investing in insurance (even though the structures to insure are pretty obvious most of the time), so there exists some level of decision making and management. 2) The aliens have no idea if the marines invested or not and if they did, what they invested in. This not only makes powernode blitzes less effective, but also reduces them to a gamble for the aliens. I would imagine obs/phase blitzes to be much more common from this. (for better or for worse)
So if anyone wants to, play with this idea for a while. I'm not advocating it, or saying it's a good idea, I'm simply asking the community 'What do you think this would accomplish, good or bad, if anything?' It does add in some power redundancy back to the game, it does increase the general tres demand for marines, and it does unfortunately add more work for the marine commander, of whom we all know already has too much.
NS2 used to have redundant 'powerpacks', like elodea mentioned previously,
that would provide power to buildings even if the powernode went out.
The idea I thought of almost involves bringing this redundancy back, but on a much smaller scale. Instead of having a dedicated structure used to provide redundant power to many buildings, what if that redundancy could be bought as a building upgrade? For example, an armory will have the option to research an upgrade that will leave it powered on even if the local powernode goes out. This could cost tres and require time as needed to facilitate game balance and could be extended to any marine structure for different research times and costs.
It was immediately apparent to me that this sounds like a very OP idea, but countermeasures can be put in place (and to some degree already exist) to mitigate this. First, since structures require power to do *anything*, this research would not be available until the structure has power at some time before the research is finished. This prevents marines from building structures without first building powernodes. Second, this wouldn't have any effect on environmental effects. The marines still have the oh-shit moment from the lighting and it's still stressful because only some of the structures operate (if the commander even invested). Thirdly, buildings can't do anything else while upgrade and it sets the marines back in time and tres, if they choose to invest.
It does allow marines to invest in 'insurance' so that if they get powernode rushed, they aren't completely crippled. It does definitely add to marine turtle-ability, which is an issue. (Although, even with turtle-ability, you can't win with just that. At some point you have to un-turtle. It does allow the marines to produce a boring, drawn out round however) This doesn't particularly improve marine offense at all, but it does severely limit the powernode alpha-strike tactic that aliens sometimes rely on for last ditch desperate wins.
The two mechanics of this idea that I really like are; 1) the marine commander gets to choose what he feels is most vital to the team, spending resources on upgrades and offense, or investing in insurance (even though the structures to insure are pretty obvious most of the time), so there exists some level of decision making and management. 2) The aliens have no idea if the marines invested or not and if they did, what they invested in. This not only makes powernode blitzes less effective, but also reduces them to a gamble for the aliens. I would imagine obs/phase blitzes to be much more common from this. (for better or for worse)
So if anyone wants to, play with this idea for a while. I'm not advocating it, or saying it's a good idea, I'm simply asking the community 'What do you think this would accomplish, good or bad, if anything?' It does add in some power redundancy back to the game, it does increase the general tres demand for marines, and it does unfortunately add more work for the marine commander, of whom we all know already has too much.
This is just the usual complaining about a loss when the team didn't do anything to prevent it. It seemed like a bad marine team anyway, based on the map.
It's the same people who complain that it's hard to stop a marine turtle, yet they don't use Drifter enzyme, spores/umbra, or hallucinations. There are plenty of tools available, but not many comm's use them.
Bile bomb is a problem, and I can assure you that the win ratio won't change until the developers address it. If not by nerfing bile bomb, then by providing some kind of method to prevent these attacks. Let's wait and see how balance swings with the update. Something tells me that marines aren't going to be winning more games after aliens get phase gates 'gorge tunnels'.
Oh ye of little faith, marines get railguns too. Lets wait and see