best to hide next to a resource nossel and wait for alien commander 2 drop the harvester, then pop out and switch axe it if this happens at 2 nozzles aliens suffer greatly
Wrong. Egg lock will NOT win you the game. Once you kill all eggs, does the game screen pop up "Marines win"...? No. Egg lock is not a game objective and it is not a winning game condition. If you egg lock a hive aliens just spawn at another IP err, "shift". (Don't want to call it an IP since it breaks the illusion of asymmetry.)
In any case, I never said marines would only have one IP, I generalized since the marines might have one comm chair or four. If they only have one, they don't have the luxury of building IPs all over the map like the aliens do.
Bottom line, the winning conditions for aliens to achieve are easier than the winning conditions for marines to achieve.
If they only have one tech point, the power didn't lose them the game.
When you take out a power node, does it say Aliens win? Killing the power is not the objective and doesn't win the game. We can do this all day.
Can aliens instantly transport the entire team to their base? Can they do good damage from range and shoot through walls? Notice how you didn't even try touching the fact that marines can turtle and aliens can't? Yeah, that alone makes your entire argument a joke. Only one side has an instant win button, but it is the other side that can actually hold out with only one tech point. What great logic!...
The only change that needs to be made is an alert for enemies attacking power. They could also try giving TP power nodes more health or armor.
In any case, I never said marines would only have one IP, I generalized since the marines might have one comm chair or four. If they only have one, they don't have the luxury of building IPs all over the map like the aliens do.
If they only have one tech point, the power didn't lose them the game. When you take out a power node, does it say Aliens win? Killing the power is not the objective and doesn't win the game.
You're playing semantic games here. If aliens take out the power in the marines' only base, and kill the remaining marines, the game is over. Whether or not a message pops up is immaterial since there is absolutely no way to change the outcome of the game. At that point the game is over, and if this was pointed out to developers they would likely alter the game to reflect that. Unless a skulk is going to somehow repair a power node so marines can start spawning. No? I didn't think so.
Can aliens instantly transport the entire team to their base? Can they do good damage from range and shoot through walls? Notice how you didn't even try touching the fact that marines can turtle and aliens can't? Yeah, that alone makes your entire argument a joke.
It does no such thing since those points are irrelevant. This isn't about various tech on each side, and it's not about asymmetry. It's about game winning conditions. You cannot have asymmetry in the game winning conditions. Each side should have an equal difficulty in beating the other team. Making the winning conditions easier for one team inherently imbalances the game.
Only one side has an instant win button, but it is the other side that can actually hold out with only one tech point.
Hold out to what end? If marines are turtling in base the game is over. In fact the 'turtle' aspect of marines has been a thorn in the side of the game, and it was one reason why concede was put into the game. It doesn't matter how long marines turtle - they still lose.
Neither side in a game should have an EZmode means to win the game if the other side does not have the same.
Except it's not just semantic games. I've seen shitloads of games where the power goes down but it does not end the game EVEN ON ONE BASE since the marines actually have to be killed. Sure, rushing the power node with two Onos will most likely end up with the power down if the comm isn't fast on the beacon trigger finger, but in the majority of the cases that is also a suicide mission for the oni. What's killing the marines and stopping them from repairing the power when two Onos are already down?
So killing power is a game winning condition, even though it doesn't win the game.
KIlling power is a game winning condition *if* you kill the remaining marines on the map. I said as much far upthread. While marines MUST kill hives to win, aliens do not have to kill the comm chair to win by default. If there are no marines alive and no power to the IPs then the game is over. Killing the comm chair is a formality. At this point there is no other outcome for the game.
I'm going to skip your other examples since you're missing the point I'm making. This isn't about the various strats you can use to win the game. There are probably a hundred ways to "win". However, there is only one way to WIN - IE have the game say your team wins and the round come to an end.
For marines: Must kill all hives, killing of alien team members not required
For aliens: Must kill all command chairs, killing of marine team members not required
*OR*
For aliens: Take out power node in marine base, then kill off remaining marines left alive
My point is that there is no similar secondary (and easier) winning condition for marines.
Do a test for yourself. Next time you play marines, grab a piece of paper and write down how the marine team lost. Just the final act. Was it concede, F4, recycle, power node ninja or did the aliens actually launch an assault that killed the command chair *BEFORE* killing the power node.
Do that for 10 or so games and let me know how many games marines lost by aliens killing their comm chair with the power still up.
Except it's not just semantic games. I've seen shitloads of games where the power goes down but it does not end the game EVEN ON ONE BASE since the marines actually have to be killed.
I know that, and I acknowledged that far upthread. But even still, if marines have one base and power goes down, they can't beacon and they can't spawn. So the likelihood that they can recover from this is slim.
My point was that taking out a power node and killing remaining marines is a far easier means to win the game than actually killing comm chairs while the power is on. Marines don't get that luxury with hives. They are forced to kill ACTIVE hives while the enemy respawns from that hive, other hives and/or shifts. There is no EZmode power node for marines to press. There is no action the marines can take that would win them the game by killing some small chamber and then hunting down the remaining aliens.
Marines don't need another condition. Aliens can't turtle. Marines can, even with this extra condition. It is why it is there. Aliens also can't instantly call back all of their players. You can't have something like a power node when they don't have close to the same defense oprions.
Marines don't need another condition. Aliens can't turtle. Marines can, even with this extra condition. It is why it is there. Aliens also can't instantly call back all of their players. You can't have something like a power node when they don't have close to the same defense oprions.
OK, let's say power nodes are needed to bust marine turtles - let's make it so that the power node in marine start cannot be attacked unless the marines have no other extractors or command chairs on the map. That prevents turtles and doesn't give aliens a free "I win" button to press. Fair?
Except it's not just semantic games. I've seen shitloads of games where the power goes down but it does not end the game EVEN ON ONE BASE since the marines actually have to be killed. Sure, rushing the power node with two Onos will most likely end up with the power down if the comm isn't fast on the beacon trigger finger, but in the majority of the cases that is also a suicide mission for the oni. What's killing the marines and stopping them from repairing the power when two Onos are already down?
You see, the issue with one base conditions is that the marines have given up hope and are all around base waiting to die. Ignoring early game, if the marines are on one base they'll probably be staying and spawning there continuously on Pugs, making the I-WIN button actually counter-productive because odds are aliens would have killed marines faster by just killing the living marines and camping the IPs (in certain Turtle situations).
However, the issue is currently when marines aren't turtling. The issues we're seeing is marines on 2-3 base and, because the marines have to be pushing and out of base to win, the base is empty or has at most 1 marine in it.
Also, I 100% disagree with the suicide run. Onos are tanks and they're fast. Odds are if they even hear the beacon they will get out and live if the Onos don't dawdle. This doesn't even bring up the fact marines can't just beacon back and win. If the power goes down, the marines at the base have to be MORE powerful than the current # of aliens at base and those within reinforcement range or else you'll still lose the base.
Its not just "the power is down we can get it back up," it's "the power is down, we have to kill all the aliens in the base, hold it and repair it for 10-20 seconds." If only 2 marines are alive in the base after the power goes out, the remaining aliens can still come in and kill them and then eat the base.
Wrong. Egg lock will NOT win you the game. Once you kill all eggs, does the game screen pop up "Marines win"...? No. Egg lock is not a game objective and it is not a winning game condition. If you egg lock a hive aliens just spawn at another IP err, "shift". (Don't want to call it an IP since it breaks the illusion of asymmetry.)
In any case, I never said marines would only have one IP, I generalized since the marines might have one comm chair or four. If they only have one, they don't have the luxury of building IPs all over the map like the aliens do.
Bottom line, the winning conditions for aliens to achieve are easier than the winning conditions for marines to achieve.
I'm going to avoid posting futher until after I've had a few games with the update (everyone will go gorge FTW) because A) they might fix it and with the high chance of so many bile rushes everyone will see way more attacks on the nodes.
Except it's not just semantic games. I've seen shitloads of games where the power goes down but it does not end the game EVEN ON ONE BASE since the marines actually have to be killed. Sure, rushing the power node with two Onos will most likely end up with the power down if the comm isn't fast on the beacon trigger finger, but in the majority of the cases that is also a suicide mission for the oni. What's killing the marines and stopping them from repairing the power when two Onos are already down?
You see, the issue with one base conditions is that the marines have given up hope and are all around base waiting to die. Ignoring early game, if the marines are on one base they'll probably be staying and spawning there continuously on Pugs, making the I-WIN button actually counter-productive because odds are aliens would have killed marines faster by just killing the living marines and camping the IPs (in certain Turtle situations).
However, the issue is currently when marines aren't turtling. The issues we're seeing is marines on 2-3 base and, because the marines have to be pushing and out of base to win, the base is empty or has at most 1 marine in it.
Also, I 100% disagree with the suicide run. Onos are tanks and they're fast. Odds are if they even hear the beacon they will get out and live if the Onos don't dawdle. This doesn't even bring up the fact marines can't just beacon back and win. If the power goes down, the marines at the base have to be MORE powerful than the current # of aliens at base and those within reinforcement range or else you'll still lose the base.
Its not just "the power is down we can get it back up," it's "the power is down, we have to kill all the aliens in the base, hold it and repair it for 10-20 seconds." If only 2 marines are alive in the base after the power goes out, the remaining aliens can still come in and kill them and then eat the base.
When there are 5 or more marines focusing down an Onos it goes down like paper, which often ends up being the case when the game turns into one base turtling. All I'm saying is that the power node isn't a simple win button that the alien team can pull of every time by sending an onos or two at it. If we're talking about the regular pub server with 16 or more players two oni is rarely enough, the entire alien team has to get their ass in there and make that push happen.
And yeah, if the Onos want to save their asses they obviously get the hell out of there when the beacon starts ringing, but that also means the power will not go down in that situation.
The marine com failed to see the onos coming. He had more than 30 seconds to drop a scan. From the point the onos wrecked nano to the point he entered control. Even if the onos would not have walked to control. The com should have scanned to warn the marines in pipe / sub that an onos is coming.
The marines managed to get down sub access and injured pipe. If he would have some backup IPs in Cargo, the game wouldn't be over. In fact they could have rushed pipe before a new hive would be ready in control or sub.
All in all, this is a bad example against power nodes. The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control even without the power node mechanic. And thats because of multiple mistakes the marine commander did.
That said, I think power nodes that work solely as light switches instead of giving power to buildings would work better. They would need to have way less health and be repaired way faster. But than we have a battlefield modifier. And not a I-Win-Button.
I think you guys are expecting almost godly abilities out of the Marine commander. Maybe if they had spectator mode view... but they don't. The comm attention span is heavily taxed already. You are blaming him for not noticing an attack for 8s while he his team was attacking two separate hives. Scans cost Tres and are temporary. Obs are expensive and stationary (compared to drifters). The alien team is built to sneak and yet you expect the comm to know all their positions at every time. I don't think that's reasonable. I don't think there is anything like that requirement on the Alien commander side.
Backup IPs in Cargo would have been a good idea, but would not have saved them since the Aliens hit Cargo power too.
A beacon would have saved the marine main base, but if they were pushing Exos it would have lost them the game since they would have lost Cargo and all their Exos. A beacon is not really a valid option when you are pushing marine hardware. You are almost forced to have static defense. They didn't so I think the only way out of this for the Marine team is an immediate allout rush on pipe and try to race it down.
On the contrary, I think this is a perfect example. It basically hows how Alien bases are generally more durable than Marine bases and it shows how small teams of aliens can be effective in quickly wrecking/disabling Marine bases, while the reverse isn't true. It also highlights how Aliens can trump Marine assaults that they can't defend by rushing power.
Marines can still expand when alien are camped around their base. Aliens can't do the same.
Aliens also can't turtle. When they make it so aliens can turtle, your argument will start making sense...
Marines will find it very difficult to even get out of base when aliens are camped outside. Aliens can expand if marine are camping, but they have to drop a hive.
I'm not so sure about aliens that can't turtle. It's just that there's not much reason for them to do so. I suppose ARCs... but they can always bile them as necessary. I think aliens could play defensive if they had to... but it's more effective to just rush power and win the game.
Except it's not just semantic games. I've seen shitloads of games where the power goes down but it does not end the game EVEN ON ONE BASE since the marines actually have to be killed. Sure, rushing the power node with two Onos will most likely end up with the power down if the comm isn't fast on the beacon trigger finger, but in the majority of the cases that is also a suicide mission for the oni. What's killing the marines and stopping them from repairing the power when two Onos are already down?
You see, the issue with one base conditions is that the marines have given up hope and are all around base waiting to die. Ignoring early game, if the marines are on one base they'll probably be staying and spawning there continuously on Pugs, making the I-WIN button actually counter-productive because odds are aliens would have killed marines faster by just killing the living marines and camping the IPs (in certain Turtle situations).
However, the issue is currently when marines aren't turtling. The issues we're seeing is marines on 2-3 base and, because the marines have to be pushing and out of base to win, the base is empty or has at most 1 marine in it.
Also, I 100% disagree with the suicide run. Onos are tanks and they're fast. Odds are if they even hear the beacon they will get out and live if the Onos don't dawdle. This doesn't even bring up the fact marines can't just beacon back and win. If the power goes down, the marines at the base have to be MORE powerful than the current # of aliens at base and those within reinforcement range or else you'll still lose the base.
Its not just "the power is down we can get it back up," it's "the power is down, we have to kill all the aliens in the base, hold it and repair it for 10-20 seconds." If only 2 marines are alive in the base after the power goes out, the remaining aliens can still come in and kill them and then eat the base.
When there are 5 or more marines focusing down an Onos it goes down like paper, which often ends up being the case when the game turns into one base turtling. All I'm saying is that the power node isn't a simple win button that the alien team can pull of every time by sending an onos or two at it. If we're talking about the regular pub server with 16 or more players two oni is rarely enough, the entire alien team has to get their ass in there and make that push happen.
And yeah, if the Onos want to save their asses they obviously get the hell out of there when the beacon starts ringing, but that also means the power will not go down in that situation.
I think I addressed your first paragraph with my first paragraph previously. The I-WIN button is funny enoughnot that useful in last base turtles (which was what it was made for) simply because there ARE marines, their entire team in fact, just sitting in base waiting to die. What most of us were talking about was when the entire marine team ISN'T in base.
In cases where the marine team is pushing, the marines have to have a major presence (3-4 marines) in base against a supported power node push or else that power node WILL stay down.
Someone who I can't find posted an idea that marine and alien teams should have different numbers, which I think, was a very good idea. It works at every level (e.g.: 2M vs. 1A com) and would go a long way towards offsetting imbalances, I believe.
95 alien pres for a devastating rush. Seems like a lot to me.
Ninja phase gate = 15 team res. Get a shotgunner or 2 in there, assuming you have at least 4-5 rushers? Bye bye hive.
Tricky arc rush... 45-60 res + res of pinging.
Seems like aliens got the short straw.
I can't tell if you're being serious here. In reality this could have been a 2 gorge rush and had been just as effective. The Onos makes it all but assured if the Marines don't beacon.
Again, phase gates take time to build. The power nodes take time to build. It's significantly longer than the 2s it took for the Aliens to run across the room and the 8s it took for them to kill power. 4-5 marines is almost double ( >= double for a 2 gorge rush) the required player commitment to the attack. And I'm still not sure they take down the hive in 8s. Maybe with high enough weapon level.
ARCs are force multipliers for siege, true. But hugely slow, hugely expensive, require protection, and 3-4 of them still won't take down a hive in 8s.
cyst chain cutting is friggin annoying and can be devastating if done properly and early. pre-second hive drop.
I think you're right about this. But it's not the "OH SHIT!" moment that main base power under attack is. I think it SHOULD be.
The decentralized nature of cysts makes it tricky though. I'd like to at least see buildings disabled if the cyst chain is cut. No more res from disconnected harvesters. No more shade or crags working without a connected cyst chain. I'd also like to see no eggs without cysts nearby.
Egg lock. Simple. You only putting IPs at one tech point is your own supidity.
I try to put my 2nd ip down at the 2nd chair. Redundancy is smart but are you really advocating for marines having to duplicate their entire base in order to attack?
I've found that egg lock to be harder to achieve than killing power or IPs. I've never been able to do it by myself because they keep coming back and I eventually run out of ammo. You can't just kill something and stop it, unless that something is the hive. That decentralized nature makes it more resilient than marine portals or power making Alien bases harder to take out.
Someone who I can't find posted an idea that marine and alien teams should have different numbers, which I think, was a very good idea. It works at every level (e.g.: 2M vs. 1A com) and would go a long way towards offsetting imbalances, I believe.
That was actually me. You can find the thread, and the developer post saying it was an interesting idea over here.
It really is partly L2comm here, and power node mechanics being biased towards aliens.
#2) What was the comm doing when the rush was detected? He had plenty of time to call in a beacon, or at the very least nanoshield the power node.
Beacon -> possibly lose momentum on killing Pipeline, but get the chance to kill an expensive onos that the losing aliens could not afford to lose.
No beacon -> Nanoshield the power node to buy time. Finish off Pipeline if the attack is well under way (ARCs, exos, etc.) to drop aliens down to 1 hive and do a base swap. Recycle everything in control and move it all down to the other tech point, and take Pipeline. Push out and kill the last hive.
The fact that nothing happened at all probably means that he never saw the rush coming (didn't see it appear on the map in time, or didn't see it at all), and never anticipated a rush on Control. The loss of Control was totally the comm's fault here.
1) power node -> ninja PG -> 4 or 5 marines with at least W2 LMGs. Cost: 15 res. Hive dies in seconds under focused fire. I pulled this off a few weeks ago, ninja-ed a PG near Pipeline.
2) 10 res for a beacon. Or 15 res for a 2nd obs to see the rush coming and buy yourself time to decide what to do. 5 res for a nanoshield for an extra 4 - 5 seconds.
3) AYFKM, this is a troll question and should deserve a troll answer, but I'll bite. It is slightly unbalanced for the power node mechanics, or at least the health/armor of the power node, but a surprise rush against an inattentive comm is a legit tactic. A 10 res beacon would have put that onos into the ground, much less the two gorges.
I agree that the Marine commander had a few options had he realized in 8s that his power was being hit while coordinating a 2 hive attack... but as I said earlier and someone else said better I think you are expecting godlike abilities from the Marine commander and that the Alien commander does not have that level of attention span draw.
Marines are pushing Exos... if they beacon they lose the Exos and probably the game. Since they didn't have static defense (and hard to do that vs an Onos) I think the best and only option would be to race the Aliens to see who could kill the tech points faster. Giving up control may have been a calculated decision, but nano would have delayed them. He was probably just distracted... and UNDERSTANDABLY so. Again, you make the aliens great at sneaking and then expect the Marine commander to know where they all are at all times. I think this is asking too much.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here... but Ninja phase gates require time to build. They require power that requires time to build. The build time alone is more than it takes for aliens to kill power. And unless you have a huge amount of marines through that gate, you will not focus the hive down in 8s.
Beacon is not a good option while pushing hardware. If the marines do it I think they lose anyway, but delay the loss a few mins. It might not even kill the Onos... that's not guaranteed at all.
Question #3 wasn't "trolling". It may be leading... but what I wanted was people to quantitatively weigh the cost of attacks with similar effects, and the cost of defending them. Then based on those numbers decide on whether they thought it was balanced.
Obviously I don't think it is, but I want to know what other people think.
This shows that 3 aliens need to cooperate (with little help from Khomm) while the entire marine force has to cooperate with intensive help from the Commander. There was no way marines could try to break out and have a chance to win unless they pushed like they did. anyone left in base could not stop the onos and gorges. They would ignore and take the power out.
Some suggested a ninja pg... good luck.
some suggested should have beaconed... now the push is stopped (regardless of if the power goes out) the aliens accomplished their goal.
The marine com failed to see the onos coming. He had more than 30 seconds to drop a scan. From the point the onos wrecked nano to the point he entered control. Even if the onos would not have walked to control. The com should have scanned to warn the marines in pipe / sub that an onos is coming.
The marines managed to get down sub access and injured pipe. If he would have some backup IPs in Cargo, the game wouldn't be over. In fact they could have rushed pipe before a new hive would be ready in control or sub.
All in all, this is a bad example against power nodes. The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control even without the power node mechanic. And thats because of multiple mistakes the marine commander did.
That said, I think power nodes that work solely as light switches instead of giving power to buildings would work better. They would need to have way less health and be repaired way faster. But than we have a battlefield modifier. And not a I-Win-Button.
That entire list is hindsight bias.
Comm failed to see the onos coming... yeah because of the high work load to support the push. (The often-touted asymmetrical play)
Back up IPs in cargo... won't make up for the loss of tech. By that logic the comm should make two of everything for redundancy
The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control, yes, but not in 8 seconds like it did. Can those units destroy all the buildings in 8 seconds?
That was actually me. You can find the thread, and the developer post saying it was an interesting idea over here.
I think by law I have to agree with only 50% of your posts. If your idea (different volumes in teams, not the alien PN) was implemented, would it be better for defending power nodes? You could spare more for patrol duties, and keep pushing.
I've found that egg lock to be harder to achieve than killing power or IPs. I've never been able to do it by myself because they keep coming back and I eventually run out of ammo. You can't just kill something and stop it, unless that something is the hive. That decentralized nature makes it more resilient than marine portals or power making Alien bases harder to take out.
Ran outta ammo? Assuming you called for it, com was busy or no res and being by yourself (as is implied) is not the best...
Try with a group, or go right to their expensive upgrades
That entire list is hindsight bias.
Comm failed to see the onos coming... yeah because of the high work load to support the push. (The often-touted asymmetrical play)
Back up IPs in cargo... won't make up for the loss of tech. By that logic the comm should make two of everything for redundancy
The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control, yes, but not in 8 seconds like it did. Can those units destroy all the buildings in 8 seconds?
I always try to have a spare arms lab, not only if your res is good you get the upgrades up twice as fast, but also that backup lab... Mostly, I get the impression too much is needed of marine.com, which IMO is not helped by the bloody stupid MAC's
Should work go into fixing the job of the Marine com himself?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
The biggest issue for me is that aliens don't have a counter-part to the powernode. While assymetry is a valuable goal, I just don't think it works in this situation. If you either had an alien structure or required that the alien comm "infest" the powernode to spawn eggs in a room, I think that would be a sufficient counter-part. Take out the structure or deinfest the powernode, and eggs can no longer spawn at that hive.
The biggest issue for me is that aliens don't have a counter-part to the powernode. While assymetry is a valuable goal, I just don't think it works in this situation. If you either had an alien structure or required that the alien comm "infest" the powernode to spawn eggs in a room, I think that would be a sufficient counter-part. Take out the structure or deinfest the powernode, and eggs can no longer spawn at that hive.
called the shift, and it costs res. shift in give room, then eggs, then give. Whitlock is a bitch
Comments
If they only have one tech point, the power didn't lose them the game.
When you take out a power node, does it say Aliens win? Killing the power is not the objective and doesn't win the game. We can do this all day.
Can aliens instantly transport the entire team to their base? Can they do good damage from range and shoot through walls? Notice how you didn't even try touching the fact that marines can turtle and aliens can't? Yeah, that alone makes your entire argument a joke. Only one side has an instant win button, but it is the other side that can actually hold out with only one tech point. What great logic!...
The only change that needs to be made is an alert for enemies attacking power. They could also try giving TP power nodes more health or armor.
Neither side in a game should have an EZmode means to win the game if the other side does not have the same.
Killing the hive with arcs is not a game winning condition even though it wins the game.
Putting a phase next to a hive isn't a game winning condition even though it wins tons of games.
Cutting off cyst chains so aliens can't expand isn't a game winjing condition even though it wins many games
Ans again, if you only have one base and give up the power, without any players to help, it wasn't the power that lost you the game...
I'm going to skip your other examples since you're missing the point I'm making. This isn't about the various strats you can use to win the game. There are probably a hundred ways to "win". However, there is only one way to WIN - IE have the game say your team wins and the round come to an end.
For marines: Must kill all hives, killing of alien team members not required
For aliens: Must kill all command chairs, killing of marine team members not required
*OR*
For aliens: Take out power node in marine base, then kill off remaining marines left alive
My point is that there is no similar secondary (and easier) winning condition for marines.
Do a test for yourself. Next time you play marines, grab a piece of paper and write down how the marine team lost. Just the final act. Was it concede, F4, recycle, power node ninja or did the aliens actually launch an assault that killed the command chair *BEFORE* killing the power node.
Do that for 10 or so games and let me know how many games marines lost by aliens killing their comm chair with the power still up.
I know that, and I acknowledged that far upthread. But even still, if marines have one base and power goes down, they can't beacon and they can't spawn. So the likelihood that they can recover from this is slim.
My point was that taking out a power node and killing remaining marines is a far easier means to win the game than actually killing comm chairs while the power is on. Marines don't get that luxury with hives. They are forced to kill ACTIVE hives while the enemy respawns from that hive, other hives and/or shifts. There is no EZmode power node for marines to press. There is no action the marines can take that would win them the game by killing some small chamber and then hunting down the remaining aliens.
You see, the issue with one base conditions is that the marines have given up hope and are all around base waiting to die. Ignoring early game, if the marines are on one base they'll probably be staying and spawning there continuously on Pugs, making the I-WIN button actually counter-productive because odds are aliens would have killed marines faster by just killing the living marines and camping the IPs (in certain Turtle situations).
However, the issue is currently when marines aren't turtling. The issues we're seeing is marines on 2-3 base and, because the marines have to be pushing and out of base to win, the base is empty or has at most 1 marine in it.
Also, I 100% disagree with the suicide run. Onos are tanks and they're fast. Odds are if they even hear the beacon they will get out and live if the Onos don't dawdle. This doesn't even bring up the fact marines can't just beacon back and win. If the power goes down, the marines at the base have to be MORE powerful than the current # of aliens at base and those within reinforcement range or else you'll still lose the base.
Its not just "the power is down we can get it back up," it's "the power is down, we have to kill all the aliens in the base, hold it and repair it for 10-20 seconds." If only 2 marines are alive in the base after the power goes out, the remaining aliens can still come in and kill them and then eat the base.
I'm going to avoid posting futher until after I've had a few games with the update (everyone will go gorge FTW) because A) they might fix it and
When there are 5 or more marines focusing down an Onos it goes down like paper, which often ends up being the case when the game turns into one base turtling. All I'm saying is that the power node isn't a simple win button that the alien team can pull of every time by sending an onos or two at it. If we're talking about the regular pub server with 16 or more players two oni is rarely enough, the entire alien team has to get their ass in there and make that push happen.
And yeah, if the Onos want to save their asses they obviously get the hell out of there when the beacon starts ringing, but that also means the power will not go down in that situation.
I think you guys are expecting almost godly abilities out of the Marine commander. Maybe if they had spectator mode view... but they don't. The comm attention span is heavily taxed already. You are blaming him for not noticing an attack for 8s while he his team was attacking two separate hives. Scans cost Tres and are temporary. Obs are expensive and stationary (compared to drifters). The alien team is built to sneak and yet you expect the comm to know all their positions at every time. I don't think that's reasonable. I don't think there is anything like that requirement on the Alien commander side.
Backup IPs in Cargo would have been a good idea, but would not have saved them since the Aliens hit Cargo power too.
A beacon would have saved the marine main base, but if they were pushing Exos it would have lost them the game since they would have lost Cargo and all their Exos. A beacon is not really a valid option when you are pushing marine hardware. You are almost forced to have static defense. They didn't so I think the only way out of this for the Marine team is an immediate allout rush on pipe and try to race it down.
On the contrary, I think this is a perfect example. It basically hows how Alien bases are generally more durable than Marine bases and it shows how small teams of aliens can be effective in quickly wrecking/disabling Marine bases, while the reverse isn't true. It also highlights how Aliens can trump Marine assaults that they can't defend by rushing power.
Marines will find it very difficult to even get out of base when aliens are camped outside. Aliens can expand if marine are camping, but they have to drop a hive.
I'm not so sure about aliens that can't turtle. It's just that there's not much reason for them to do so. I suppose ARCs... but they can always bile them as necessary. I think aliens could play defensive if they had to... but it's more effective to just rush power and win the game.
I think I addressed your first paragraph with my first paragraph previously. The I-WIN button is funny enoughnot that useful in last base turtles (which was what it was made for) simply because there ARE marines, their entire team in fact, just sitting in base waiting to die. What most of us were talking about was when the entire marine team ISN'T in base.
In cases where the marine team is pushing, the marines have to have a major presence (3-4 marines) in base against a supported power node push or else that power node WILL stay down.
I can't tell if you're being serious here. In reality this could have been a 2 gorge rush and had been just as effective. The Onos makes it all but assured if the Marines don't beacon.
Again, phase gates take time to build. The power nodes take time to build. It's significantly longer than the 2s it took for the Aliens to run across the room and the 8s it took for them to kill power. 4-5 marines is almost double ( >= double for a 2 gorge rush) the required player commitment to the attack. And I'm still not sure they take down the hive in 8s. Maybe with high enough weapon level.
ARCs are force multipliers for siege, true. But hugely slow, hugely expensive, require protection, and 3-4 of them still won't take down a hive in 8s.
I think you're right about this. But it's not the "OH SHIT!" moment that main base power under attack is. I think it SHOULD be.
The decentralized nature of cysts makes it tricky though. I'd like to at least see buildings disabled if the cyst chain is cut. No more res from disconnected harvesters. No more shade or crags working without a connected cyst chain. I'd also like to see no eggs without cysts nearby.
I try to put my 2nd ip down at the 2nd chair. Redundancy is smart but are you really advocating for marines having to duplicate their entire base in order to attack?
I've found that egg lock to be harder to achieve than killing power or IPs. I've never been able to do it by myself because they keep coming back and I eventually run out of ammo. You can't just kill something and stop it, unless that something is the hive. That decentralized nature makes it more resilient than marine portals or power making Alien bases harder to take out.
Yeah, I think that would fix this particular issue.
I agree that the Marine commander had a few options had he realized in 8s that his power was being hit while coordinating a 2 hive attack... but as I said earlier and someone else said better I think you are expecting godlike abilities from the Marine commander and that the Alien commander does not have that level of attention span draw.
Marines are pushing Exos... if they beacon they lose the Exos and probably the game. Since they didn't have static defense (and hard to do that vs an Onos) I think the best and only option would be to race the Aliens to see who could kill the tech points faster. Giving up control may have been a calculated decision, but nano would have delayed them. He was probably just distracted... and UNDERSTANDABLY so. Again, you make the aliens great at sneaking and then expect the Marine commander to know where they all are at all times. I think this is asking too much.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here... but Ninja phase gates require time to build. They require power that requires time to build. The build time alone is more than it takes for aliens to kill power. And unless you have a huge amount of marines through that gate, you will not focus the hive down in 8s.
Beacon is not a good option while pushing hardware. If the marines do it I think they lose anyway, but delay the loss a few mins. It might not even kill the Onos... that's not guaranteed at all.
Question #3 wasn't "trolling". It may be leading... but what I wanted was people to quantitatively weigh the cost of attacks with similar effects, and the cost of defending them. Then based on those numbers decide on whether they thought it was balanced.
Obviously I don't think it is, but I want to know what other people think.
Some suggested a ninja pg... good luck.
some suggested should have beaconed... now the push is stopped (regardless of if the power goes out) the aliens accomplished their goal.
That entire list is hindsight bias.
Comm failed to see the onos coming... yeah because of the high work load to support the push. (The often-touted asymmetrical play)
Back up IPs in cargo... won't make up for the loss of tech. By that logic the comm should make two of everything for redundancy
The onos-gorge-rush would have devastated control, yes, but not in 8 seconds like it did. Can those units destroy all the buildings in 8 seconds?
I think by law I have to agree with only 50% of your posts. If your idea (different volumes in teams, not the alien PN) was implemented, would it be better for defending power nodes? You could spare more for patrol duties, and keep pushing.
Ran outta ammo? Assuming you called for it, com was busy or no res and being by yourself (as is implied) is not the best...
Try with a group, or go right to their expensive upgrades
I always try to have a spare arms lab, not only if your res is good you get the upgrades up twice as fast, but also that backup lab... Mostly, I get the impression too much is needed of marine.com, which IMO is not helped by the bloody stupid MAC's
Should work go into fixing the job of the Marine com himself?
called the shift, and it costs res. shift in give room, then eggs, then give. Whitlock is a bitch