It in no way can 7 shot an onos, i think you messed up testing the damage values. It would take over 13 shots to kill an onos with the railgun, let alone a carapace onos. Pretty sure a single onos could kill 2 dual railgun exos pretty easily. Not sure what damage values you are using.
My impression was that the mod pulled all of the stats directly from the railgun info that was last in game (on the public build). If the damage was changed to be significantly less, that'd fall under the category of severe nerf (which I did put a disclaimer up about).
The problem with the railgun exo is (like sniper rifles in most games), it's going to be either useless or overpowered - there's no inbetween. If it's actually as bad against onos to the degree you're stating, and it can't kill Fades in one volley, then there's zero reason to ever use it over a minigun exo.
Honestly, I can't really see what the railgun exo adds to the game in either scenario. Either it's a skill imbalanced weapon that top players bring to horribly abusive levels, or it's bad in the hands of top players and nothing more than a newb trap. Scenario A adds massive frustration when good players are in the game (and probably still reduces overall marine win rate because bad players will be worse with it), and Scenario B just flat out reduces marine win rate.
In general, sniper rifle/railgun style weapons have a formula to them:
If a sniper rifle is good enough that casual players can do well with it, it's guaranteed to be massively overpowered in the hands of top players.
If a sniper rifle is balanced for top level play, it'll be a useless newb trap for anyone who isn't a top player.
I dont think thats the case at all with weapons like that, look at the AWP from CS for example. And i doubt any high level players would take the exo in the end, i think all would still choose the jetpack.
The damage does need careful consideration to not be op/useless, but I dont expect high tier players to jump all over the dualrailgun.
Don't really care how many shots railgun takes to kill onos at this point tbh. I do care how onos/exo affects every other class underneath and their respective mobility designs. The finer balance numbers about whether it should take 7 shots or 10 shots or whatever isn't really a relatively concerning issue for me. Especially when there are so many variables you can tweak to achieve whatever.
Anyway, I read through all the progressive changes you've listed in this thread bigtracer and personally it isn't my cup of tea. Nor do i think you really understand what or why most of the time.
That said, keep it up. We're all constantly learning and 9 pages means you must be doing something right catering to the legit wants of some portion of the community. Heck, to have the motivation to actually make a mod instead of just whinging (something i do) says well about this endeavour.
It in no way can 7 shot an onos, i think you messed up testing the damage values. It would take over 13 shots to kill an onos with the railgun, let alone a carapace onos. Pretty sure a single onos could kill 2 dual railgun exos pretty easily. Not sure what damage values you are using.
I post the following having not done the math beforehand (since it's late) but the railgun data is already in the LUAs.
kClawRailgunTechResearchCost = 20
kDualRailgunTechResearchCost = 20
kClawRailgunTechResearchTime = 60
kDualRailgunTechResearchTime = 60
kClawRailgunExosuitCost = 50
kDualRailgunExosuitCost = 75
kRailgunRange = 400
kRailgunDamage = 50
kChargeTime = 2
// The Railgun will automatically shoot if it is charged for too long.
kChargeForceShootTime = 3
kRailgunChargeDamage = 100
kRailgunDamageType = kDamageType.Puncture
// Puncture - Extra vs. players
kPuncturePlayerDamageScalar = 1.25
kHealthPointsPerArmor = 2
Carapace Onos = 1300 + 1800 (900 x 2) = 3100 effective health
Dual Railgun damage if both are fully charged shots = 250 (200*1.25=250)
Number of fully charged railgun shots to kill an Onos = 13 (10 without carapace)
Dual railgun EXO time to kill Onos = 13 x 3 = ~39 seconds (2 seconds for a full charge plus a second to fire and start charging again.)
Onos time to kill any EXO = a bit over 6 seconds.
The railgun EXO will be less of a threat than the minigun EXO.
Feel free to crunch the numbers, but if this is right the only thing a railgun will be one-shotting is a skulk or a lerk. Even then it has to be charged shots to one-shot the lerk. So it's basically a glorified skulk killing machine.
I don't think this is going to be the killing machine people make it out to be.
I dont think thats the case at all with weapons like that, look at the AWP from CS for example. And i doubt any high level players would take the exo in the end, i think all would still choose the jetpack.
The damage does need careful consideration to not be op/useless, but I dont expect high tier players to jump all over the dualrailgun.
The AWP in CS is not balanced nor is it meant to be, due to the round independent money system.
Basically, my concerns with upcoming official changes motivated me to start modding right away.
I'm pretty sure aliens don't need additional mobility from tunnels, neither marines need SkulkBuster for 75 res. Especially inside official economic reality.
Bablers might be something interesting. Anyway, I'll port into the mod whetever will be interesting to play.
Guys, what do you think about "Onos King" feature? It is a solution for alien tech explosion. And adds some new interesting aspects to alien gameplay.
Reworked onos system. Onos can only be created by Khammender with at least two hives. It costs 150 res. It has 4000 hp and 750(1000) armor. No stomp. If you let it come, it's too late for you to run.
It in no way can 7 shot an onos, i think you messed up testing the damage values. It would take over 13 shots to kill an onos with the railgun, let alone a carapace onos. Pretty sure a single onos could kill 2 dual railgun exos pretty easily. Not sure what damage values you are using.
I post the following having not done the math beforehand (since it's late) but the railgun data is already in the LUAs.
kClawRailgunTechResearchCost = 20
kDualRailgunTechResearchCost = 20
kClawRailgunTechResearchTime = 60
kDualRailgunTechResearchTime = 60
kClawRailgunExosuitCost = 50
kDualRailgunExosuitCost = 75
kRailgunRange = 400
kRailgunDamage = 50
kChargeTime = 2
// The Railgun will automatically shoot if it is charged for too long.
kChargeForceShootTime = 3
kRailgunChargeDamage = 100
kRailgunDamageType = kDamageType.Puncture
// Puncture - Extra vs. players
kPuncturePlayerDamageScalar = 1.25
kHealthPointsPerArmor = 2
Carapace Onos = 1300 + 1800 (900 x 2) = 3100 effective health
Dual Railgun damage if both are fully charged shots = 250 (200*1.25=250)
Number of fully charged railgun shots to kill an Onos = 13 (10 without carapace)
Dual railgun EXO time to kill Onos = 13 x 3 = ~39 seconds (2 seconds for a full charge plus a second to fire and start charging again.)
Onos time to kill any EXO = a bit over 6 seconds.
The railgun EXO will be less of a threat than the minigun EXO.
Feel free to crunch the numbers, but if this is right the only thing a railgun will be one-shotting is a skulk or a lerk. Even then it has to be charged shots to one-shot the lerk. So it's basically a glorified skulk killing machine.
I don't think this is going to be the killing machine people make it out to be.
The code was far from done. Anyway I first implemented it with these damage numbers that meant you got a base of 50 and and extra 100 damage per second charged with a max of 2 second charge = 250 damage per shot.
After testing this I found these numbers rather low. While you are able to one-shot kill some forms (and with duall both-shot) it's just plain useless against an onos. With the duall-mini you actually stand a chance against an onos but with the duall railgun you don't stand any chance (and that's because of the Armor). The problem is that if you upp the damage (making it more usefull against onos) you make it way to OP against other lifeforms. The only valid way to compensate this would be to decrease onos armor or by some other mean (puncture piercing armor?).
Anyway I upped the damage to max 500 (base 50 + 3sx150). This was the only way that the railgun had any sort of use in my opinion (and more for fun in the mod). I think the main reason why the dev's decided not to implement a dual railgun is because of the underpowered / overpowerd discussion. Now you get a single railgun exo with a melee attack. I think that it will be a 1 shot skulks kill (even with carpace) when fully charged but not a lerk kill. But again just speculation, some dev already stated that my implementation is no where near resembling theirs.
It's probably gonna be a lower res-more usefull if you have skill- exosuite.
I think you change to much things that doesn't need changing or that make it even worse.
Concentrate on the following: Achieve balance by only adding mechanics that are fun. Only change things for balance when they are more fun with this change.
This said, I have a personal opinion of how to create balance with fun mechanics. Probably most won't agree on them too.
For example:
- move cyst-placing to gorges
- remove building-speed-up from gorges
- decrease building time of harvesters
- increase costs of all alien-research (leap, bile, ... , crag, shift, ..., carapace, and so on)
- decrease cost and health of support buildings (crag, shift, shade)
- decouple all marine buildings from power-nodes
- decrease health and build time of power-nodes by a lot
- pre-place all power nodes in the map (so aliens can destroy them)
- add onos bone shield (old thread!) for higher skill floor
- decrease onos health / armor
What will the groups of points do:
- The first group makes early gorges mandatory and lessens the amount of skulks on the field (giving marines some space in early game). It also increases the "ways to fail" for aliens, because they need more teamplay and communication now (like marines). Cutting cysts can do real damage now if aliens don't react. And the boring task of healing up RTs/ hives is removed. Instead gorges can try to find hiding-spots for cysts now. (walls and ceilings are possible!)
The decreased building-time of harvesters will compensate for being gorge-dependent and gets rid of this very extreme relation of: "Marines killing harvesters early game cripples aliens. Marines that don't doing that are losing."
- The cheaper alien tech-tree needs to be adjusted so they need the same map control like marines.
- power node system stays in the game as "light-switches" fast to destroy fast to repair. But they are no longer Win-Buttons.
- Onos train can now be countered with skill and tactics. The problematic rule of "you need at least 3 or 4 marines to kill an onos" that is a real problem when 3 onos arrive, is gone. The onos now needs to think how to engage into an battle.
Yeah listen to Necro, the cysts and powernodes suggestion are pretty good, and make your mod fun before anything. I don't want to play a mod that just tweaks a bit the numbers. Some other stuff:
I think you change to much things that doesn't need changing or that make it even worse.
Concentrate on the following: Achieve balance by only adding mechanics that are fun. Only change things for balance when they are more fun with this change.
This said, I have a personal opinion of how to create balance with fun mechanics. Probably most won't agree on them too.
For example:
- move cyst-placing to gorges
- remove building-speed-up from gorges
- decrease building time of harvesters
- increase costs of all alien-research (leap, bile, ... , crag, shift, ..., carapace, and so on)
- decrease cost and health of support buildings (crag, shift, shade)
- decouple all marine buildings from power-nodes
- decrease health and build time of power-nodes by a lot
- pre-place all power nodes in the map (so aliens can destroy them)
- add onos bone shield (old thread!) for higher skill floor
- decrease onos health / armor
What will the groups of points do:
- The first group makes early gorges mandatory and lessens the amount of skulks on the field (giving marines some space in early game). It also increases the "ways to fail" for aliens, because they need more teamplay and communication now (like marines). Cutting cysts can do real damage now if aliens don't react. And the boring task of healing up RTs/ hives is removed. Instead gorges can try to find hiding-spots for cysts now. (walls and ceilings are possible!)
The decreased building-time of harvesters will compensate for being gorge-dependent and gets rid of this very extreme relation of: "Marines killing harvesters early game cripples aliens. Marines that don't doing that are losing."
- The cheaper alien tech-tree needs to be adjusted so they need the same map control like marines.
- power node system stays in the game as "light-switches" fast to destroy fast to repair. But they are no longer Win-Buttons.
- Onos train can now be countered with skill and tactics. The problematic rule of "you need at least 3 or 4 marines to kill an onos" that is a real problem when 3 onos arrive, is gone. The onos now needs to think how to engage into an battle.
Most issues you mentioned are already fixed in my mod. Not all of them the way you propose, but they are corrected. I'm interested in your suggestions, but I can't agree with some of them.
Patch 2.05
-Exos armor back to original.
-Crags heal slighlty more, but in general 35% slower. Regen, more crags and gorgies are still there, use them.
-Whack's catch range got 3 times reduced. Whips throw'em back at you, but not from an entire room. Several whips can protect territory from grenades, but not the ridiculous way as before.
-Added mod info on loading screens.
I want to add one more thing soon, but if you wanted to give mod a try, now is the time. It's in a very good shape now.
Yeah so let's complain about something that has nothing to do with what you're actually complaining about.
That's productive.
They have a small team. The complaint I hear most from new players isn't the abysmal performance, it's "Why is X allowed to happen when Y does this, that isn't fair"
Most of the concerns new players have, are about balance. If you put off new players constantly, it has an effect on your bottom line, and therefore your ability to develop. Logically it is in the games best interest to address the top issues first. Balance is a constantly, and hotly debated topic. Pretty graphics are good, and making the game run better is even greater. Unfortunately, even if the game looks great, and plays great, if it isn't fun for the average player, it will not be a success.
I do not feel balance is being ignored, but I do not see frequent commentary on it from the team. From the friends I have that playtest, the major highlights coming are nerfs to marines. Yet again this weekend I did damage control when I heard some people berating a rookie, and he said "This game sucks, nothing makes sense, and It was a waste of money"
Uh, this time I had some classic NS2 games. Aliens controlling 2/3 of the map by minute 5. All extractors are going down at the same time. Marines struggle to get Phase and shotguns. Then comes Fade explosion and it ends.
And an opposite one. Marines holding the line at 2 CC. Saving up for ARC-Exo train and wiping aliens hive by hive. And jets+shotguns everywhere. Classics.
To acknowledge you should of been whining about balance instead of adding engine features? Or just some typical non-sequitur?
Actually nevermind, I don't really care
You do care, or you wouldn't post. No reason to get upset with me. We may have different perspectives but we both want the game to do well.
I care, as well. I care that NS does well. I just don't think adding go-faster flames on the side is going to help per se. I get there are updates to balance coming soon as well, but there really should be a handful of public balance test servers. I like that there is a balance mod that flayra has, but not enough people know of it.
All right, so latest feature list looks like this and I'm going to play it tomorrow. It's time to finally enjoy it and stop playing with code
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Reworked onos system. Onos can only be created by Khammender with at least two hives. It costs 150 res. It has 4000 hp and 750(1000) armor. No stomp. If you let it come, it's too late for you to run.
2. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
3. Hallucinations x4 HP.
4. Evolution Structures cost 10 res, Evolutions cost 15 res. Shift Hatch costs 3 res.
5. Crags heal 33% slower.
6. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research.
7. Carapace nerfed. Skulk 10(20) armor, Gorge 120(150), Fade 75(100).
8. Nerfed whip's grenade Whack ability.
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory removed. Weapons moved to basic Armory. Limit: 2 per room max. Flamethrower and Grenadelauncher: 20 res each.
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost.
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, 8 damage, 7 res.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius, 7 res. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster, slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
7. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%.
8. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
9. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. Exos can crush cysts now.
What is bad about NS2 is only one viable strategy for both teams.
1. Rush PG, fend off skulks, save up, ARC+Exo train.
2. Harass, take down PG, Fade Explosion/Onos train.
Sentries, mines, flames, nades, xeno, umbra, vortex, hallucinations, shift, veil are being so rare you could only find out the exist on wiki.
What is bad about NS2 is only one viable strategy for both teams.
1. Rush PG, fend off skulks, save up, ARC+Exo train.
2. Harass, take down PG, Fade Explosion/Onos train.
Sentries, mines, flames, nades, xeno, umbra, vortex, hallucinations, shift, veil are being so rare you could only find out the exist on wiki.
To be fair, most of the things you listed aren't used purely due to random-player stupidity. Mines are insanely good early game in tandem with PGs, Umbra is amazing for game ending, shift is anything but rare, and flame throwers used correctly go holocaust mode on cyst chains
What is bad about NS2 is only one viable strategy for both teams.
1. Rush PG, fend off skulks, save up, ARC+Exo train.
2. Harass, take down PG, Fade Explosion/Onos train.
Sentries, mines, flames, nades, xeno, umbra, vortex, hallucinations, shift, veil are being so rare you could only find out the exist on wiki.
To be fair, most of the things you listed aren't used purely due to random-player stupidity. Mines are insanely good early game in tandem with PGs, Umbra is amazing for game ending, shift is anything but rare, and flame throwers used correctly go holocaust mode on cyst chains
They are. But I have seen umbra in game only once. When economy model is as it is in ns2, you can't spend a single res. point out of most efficient way or you lose.
It's just a miracle how a single good gorge can paralyze marines' expanding. Part of the issues comes from lack of cooperation/knowledge of effective playing. But the other part, like Onosplosion comes from balance issues. With mod we can have fixed at least half of them.
4000 hp onos in the name of balance. Now you're just trolling.
You don't get the whole economic/strategic impact behind this decision. Btw, 2 dual exos w3 obliterate it before heating up.
There won't be onos trains. The scariest part of alien tech explosion is delayed. Alien comm should choose between investing in his team or saving up for onos with perspective never to reach it.
And, you need to remember, that marines now have cheaper tech tree and can attack more agressively, cause they have turrets to at least hold RT attacks of aliens.
Now aliens should fight to get that onos and do a smart cooperated attack to win. They can't just turtle to get mass onos like before. And people will have to use other lifeforms effectively to win. It means skill requirement for aliens also got higher.
Theorycrafting will never lead to balance. If you continue to make drastic changes that greatly effect the meta-game without there being hundreds and hundreds of games played to test these changes, you are not going to end up with a balanced mod. I will still play a mod with a super-onos because its funny, but since your goal is to make a mod that does a better job balancing than UWE, you might not want to make more changes than UWE is making with less testing than UWE has available.
Theorycrafting will never lead to balance. If you continue to make drastic changes that greatly effect the meta-game without there being hundreds and hundreds of games played to test these changes, you are not going to end up with a balanced mod. I will still play a mod with a super-onos because its funny, but since your goal is to make a mod that does a better job balancing than UWE, you might not want to make more changes than UWE is making with less testing than UWE has available.
Onoses got nerfed by this solution. Today I had a game, where we were holding at last CC and got crushed by (!)6 Onoses at once. Six. That's a big choo-choo.
Onos King is weak in comparisson to this. Onos King can be crushed by 2 dual exos in no time. And it has a good effect on alien economy system.
You didn't read my post. I'll make it simpler: you are implementing too many changes with not enough testing. Your theory crafting is not a replacement for testing.
You didn't read my post. I'll make it simpler: you are implementing too many changes with not enough testing. Your theory crafting is not a replacement for testing.
I wish I could. But I have as many resources as I have.
Onoses got nerfed by this solution. Today I had a game, where we were holding at last CC and got crushed by (!)6 Onoses at once. Six. That's a big choo-choo.
Onos King is weak in comparisson to this. Onos King can be crushed by 2 dual exos in no time. And it has a good effect on alien economy system.
What's the problem with being crushed by onos at your last base? By that stage you should be expecting a big push that will finish the game, seeing as aliens would have controlled the entire map.
Onoses got nerfed by this solution. Today I had a game, where we were holding at last CC and got crushed by (!)6 Onoses at once. Six. That's a big choo-choo.
Onos King is weak in comparisson to this. Onos King can be crushed by 2 dual exos in no time. And it has a good effect on alien economy system.
What's the problem with being crushed by onos at your last base? By that stage you should be expecting a big push that will finish the game, seeing as aliens would have controlled the entire map.
You're right. Crushing last base is just what should happen. But as soon as aliens get 2-3 onoses, marines lose their every base one by one, very fast.
Onos is stronger than Exo. But that's not the main issue here. Main one is onos can be build with a lot less requirements and research. That ends up with onoses coming earlier than exos for like 10 minutes.
I'm going to revert onos back to original, but add it power scale with number of Hives.
Comments
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124290991&searchtext=
My impression was that the mod pulled all of the stats directly from the railgun info that was last in game (on the public build). If the damage was changed to be significantly less, that'd fall under the category of severe nerf (which I did put a disclaimer up about).
The problem with the railgun exo is (like sniper rifles in most games), it's going to be either useless or overpowered - there's no inbetween. If it's actually as bad against onos to the degree you're stating, and it can't kill Fades in one volley, then there's zero reason to ever use it over a minigun exo.
Honestly, I can't really see what the railgun exo adds to the game in either scenario. Either it's a skill imbalanced weapon that top players bring to horribly abusive levels, or it's bad in the hands of top players and nothing more than a newb trap. Scenario A adds massive frustration when good players are in the game (and probably still reduces overall marine win rate because bad players will be worse with it), and Scenario B just flat out reduces marine win rate.
In general, sniper rifle/railgun style weapons have a formula to them:
If a sniper rifle is good enough that casual players can do well with it, it's guaranteed to be massively overpowered in the hands of top players.
If a sniper rifle is balanced for top level play, it'll be a useless newb trap for anyone who isn't a top player.
The damage does need careful consideration to not be op/useless, but I dont expect high tier players to jump all over the dualrailgun.
Anyway, I read through all the progressive changes you've listed in this thread bigtracer and personally it isn't my cup of tea. Nor do i think you really understand what or why most of the time.
That said, keep it up. We're all constantly learning and 9 pages means you must be doing something right catering to the legit wants of some portion of the community. Heck, to have the motivation to actually make a mod instead of just whinging (something i do) says well about this endeavour.
Dual Railgun damage if both are fully charged shots = 250 (200*1.25=250)
Number of fully charged railgun shots to kill an Onos = 13 (10 without carapace)
Dual railgun EXO time to kill Onos = 13 x 3 = ~39 seconds (2 seconds for a full charge plus a second to fire and start charging again.)
Onos time to kill any EXO = a bit over 6 seconds.
The railgun EXO will be less of a threat than the minigun EXO.
Feel free to crunch the numbers, but if this is right the only thing a railgun will be one-shotting is a skulk or a lerk. Even then it has to be charged shots to one-shot the lerk. So it's basically a glorified skulk killing machine.
I don't think this is going to be the killing machine people make it out to be.
The AWP in CS is not balanced nor is it meant to be, due to the round independent money system.
I'm pretty sure aliens don't need additional mobility from tunnels, neither marines need SkulkBuster for 75 res. Especially inside official economic reality.
Bablers might be something interesting. Anyway, I'll port into the mod whetever will be interesting to play.
Guys, what do you think about "Onos King" feature? It is a solution for alien tech explosion. And adds some new interesting aspects to alien gameplay.
I created the railgun mod on steam (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=124290991&searchtext=).
The code was far from done. Anyway I first implemented it with these damage numbers that meant you got a base of 50 and and extra 100 damage per second charged with a max of 2 second charge = 250 damage per shot.
After testing this I found these numbers rather low. While you are able to one-shot kill some forms (and with duall both-shot) it's just plain useless against an onos. With the duall-mini you actually stand a chance against an onos but with the duall railgun you don't stand any chance (and that's because of the Armor). The problem is that if you upp the damage (making it more usefull against onos) you make it way to OP against other lifeforms. The only valid way to compensate this would be to decrease onos armor or by some other mean (puncture piercing armor?).
Anyway I upped the damage to max 500 (base 50 + 3sx150). This was the only way that the railgun had any sort of use in my opinion (and more for fun in the mod). I think the main reason why the dev's decided not to implement a dual railgun is because of the underpowered / overpowerd discussion. Now you get a single railgun exo with a melee attack. I think that it will be a 1 shot skulks kill (even with carpace) when fully charged but not a lerk kill. But again just speculation, some dev already stated that my implementation is no where near resembling theirs.
It's probably gonna be a lower res-more usefull if you have skill- exosuite.
I cant wait to check out how they implemented it.
Concentrate on the following: Achieve balance by only adding mechanics that are fun. Only change things for balance when they are more fun with this change.
This said, I have a personal opinion of how to create balance with fun mechanics. Probably most won't agree on them too.
For example:
- move cyst-placing to gorges
- remove building-speed-up from gorges
- decrease building time of harvesters
- increase costs of all alien-research (leap, bile, ... , crag, shift, ..., carapace, and so on)
- decrease cost and health of support buildings (crag, shift, shade)
- decouple all marine buildings from power-nodes
- decrease health and build time of power-nodes by a lot
- pre-place all power nodes in the map (so aliens can destroy them)
- add onos bone shield (old thread!) for higher skill floor
- decrease onos health / armor
What will the groups of points do:
- The first group makes early gorges mandatory and lessens the amount of skulks on the field (giving marines some space in early game). It also increases the "ways to fail" for aliens, because they need more teamplay and communication now (like marines). Cutting cysts can do real damage now if aliens don't react. And the boring task of healing up RTs/ hives is removed. Instead gorges can try to find hiding-spots for cysts now. (walls and ceilings are possible!)
The decreased building-time of harvesters will compensate for being gorge-dependent and gets rid of this very extreme relation of: "Marines killing harvesters early game cripples aliens. Marines that don't doing that are losing."
- The cheaper alien tech-tree needs to be adjusted so they need the same map control like marines.
- power node system stays in the game as "light-switches" fast to destroy fast to repair. But they are no longer Win-Buttons.
- Onos train can now be countered with skill and tactics. The problematic rule of "you need at least 3 or 4 marines to kill an onos" that is a real problem when 3 onos arrive, is gone. The onos now needs to think how to engage into an battle.
- Remove armor healing from the armory to promote teamplay and less boring "let's go back to the armory to heal".
- Allow relocations for marines: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/118878/relocations/p1
Most issues you mentioned are already fixed in my mod. Not all of them the way you propose, but they are corrected. I'm interested in your suggestions, but I can't agree with some of them.
-Exos armor back to original.
-Crags heal slighlty more, but in general 35% slower. Regen, more crags and gorgies are still there, use them.
-Whack's catch range got 3 times reduced. Whips throw'em back at you, but not from an entire room. Several whips can protect territory from grenades, but not the ridiculous way as before.
-Added mod info on loading screens.
I want to add one more thing soon, but if you wanted to give mod a try, now is the time. It's in a very good shape now.
They have a small team. The complaint I hear most from new players isn't the abysmal performance, it's "Why is X allowed to happen when Y does this, that isn't fair"
Most of the concerns new players have, are about balance. If you put off new players constantly, it has an effect on your bottom line, and therefore your ability to develop. Logically it is in the games best interest to address the top issues first. Balance is a constantly, and hotly debated topic. Pretty graphics are good, and making the game run better is even greater. Unfortunately, even if the game looks great, and plays great, if it isn't fun for the average player, it will not be a success.
I do not feel balance is being ignored, but I do not see frequent commentary on it from the team. From the friends I have that playtest, the major highlights coming are nerfs to marines. Yet again this weekend I did damage control when I heard some people berating a rookie, and he said "This game sucks, nothing makes sense, and It was a waste of money"
To acknowledge you should of been whining about balance instead of adding engine features? Or just some typical non-sequitur?
Actually nevermind, I don't really care
And an opposite one. Marines holding the line at 2 CC. Saving up for ARC-Exo train and wiping aliens hive by hive. And jets+shotguns everywhere. Classics.
You do care, or you wouldn't post. No reason to get upset with me. We may have different perspectives but we both want the game to do well.
I care, as well. I care that NS does well. I just don't think adding go-faster flames on the side is going to help per se. I get there are updates to balance coming soon as well, but there really should be a handful of public balance test servers. I like that there is a balance mod that flayra has, but not enough people know of it.
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Reworked onos system. Onos can only be created by Khammender with at least two hives. It costs 150 res. It has 4000 hp and 750(1000) armor. No stomp. If you let it come, it's too late for you to run.
2. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
3. Hallucinations x4 HP.
4. Evolution Structures cost 10 res, Evolutions cost 15 res. Shift Hatch costs 3 res.
5. Crags heal 33% slower.
6. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research.
7. Carapace nerfed. Skulk 10(20) armor, Gorge 120(150), Fade 75(100).
8. Nerfed whip's grenade Whack ability.
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory removed. Weapons moved to basic Armory. Limit: 2 per room max. Flamethrower and Grenadelauncher: 20 res each.
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost.
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, 8 damage, 7 res.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius, 7 res. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster, slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
7. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%.
8. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
9. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. Exos can crush cysts now.
1. Rush PG, fend off skulks, save up, ARC+Exo train.
2. Harass, take down PG, Fade Explosion/Onos train.
Sentries, mines, flames, nades, xeno, umbra, vortex, hallucinations, shift, veil are being so rare you could only find out the exist on wiki.
To be fair, most of the things you listed aren't used purely due to random-player stupidity. Mines are insanely good early game in tandem with PGs, Umbra is amazing for game ending, shift is anything but rare, and flame throwers used correctly go holocaust mode on cyst chains
They are. But I have seen umbra in game only once. When economy model is as it is in ns2, you can't spend a single res. point out of most efficient way or you lose.
You don't get the whole economic/strategic impact behind this decision. Btw, 2 dual exos w3 obliterate it before heating up.
There won't be onos trains. The scariest part of alien tech explosion is delayed. Alien comm should choose between investing in his team or saving up for onos with perspective never to reach it.
Now aliens should fight to get that onos and do a smart cooperated attack to win. They can't just turtle to get mass onos like before. And people will have to use other lifeforms effectively to win. It means skill requirement for aliens also got higher.
The whole Meta changes with "Onos King".
Onoses got nerfed by this solution. Today I had a game, where we were holding at last CC and got crushed by (!)6 Onoses at once. Six. That's a big choo-choo.
Onos King is weak in comparisson to this. Onos King can be crushed by 2 dual exos in no time. And it has a good effect on alien economy system.
I wish I could. But I have as many resources as I have.
I'm gonna try to make original multi-onos scale with number of hives instead.
Nah, let's try out Onos King first.
What's the problem with being crushed by onos at your last base? By that stage you should be expecting a big push that will finish the game, seeing as aliens would have controlled the entire map.
You're right. Crushing last base is just what should happen. But as soon as aliens get 2-3 onoses, marines lose their every base one by one, very fast.
Onos is stronger than Exo. But that's not the main issue here. Main one is onos can be build with a lot less requirements and research. That ends up with onoses coming earlier than exos for like 10 minutes.
I'm going to revert onos back to original, but add it power scale with number of Hives.