While I haven't tried the mod and so therefore cannot comment, I applaud the effort to balance. It's a shame the developers are putting more effort into additional graphics options than focusing strictly on balance. NS1 was a great game, and it wasn't because of graphics.
You realize the people working on engine level / graphic options have virtually zero to do with balance and gameplay mechanics. So even if max was working on making a seperate rendering engine based on voxels or whatever it would have zero impact on the developers ability to work on gameplay or balance.
I never said Max, I never said anyone specific. Go be angry somewhere else. Fact of the matter is, balance is obviously lower on the rung than adding additional graphics options which will be immediately disabled by anyone who really plays this beyond pub level, due to horrid optimization. If the preview and videos and teasers all showcased tweaks, balance measures, and not pretty shiny lights, maybe I'd be convinced it wasn't just an attempt to draw back the already declining player numbers. A month ago there were over a thousand servers on my browser. We're down to below 600.
Reworked onos system. Onos can only be created by Khammender with at least two hives. It costs 150 res. It has 4000 hp and 750(1000) armor. No stomp. If you let it come, it's too late for you to run.
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
2. Hallucinations got 4 times more HP. No onos hallucination.
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res.
4. Crags heal 33% slower.
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research.
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace.
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced.
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost.
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster.
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts.
I just had a great game on french public. Demonstrates ns2 in general. One of those games, where marines fight to win. At veil.
We have pushed the left flank till subsector, got PG there. And holded 4-5 points for some time. Aliens were taking down our RTs, but we defended them well. 10 minutes of constant rts assaults. The most annoying part. Then some people layed mines.
Crucial moment: they got tired of munching RTs and started individual onos-fades attacks. So they wasted their Tech Explosion advantage. 10-15 minutes later we got latest tech, and slaughtered them hive by hive with ARC-Exo-Marine train.
Another note - they placed a good barricade with crags and whips at Topo, but didn't have p.res to buy anything scary.
If they formed a Well Known Train, we would've lost, cause we didn't have enough firepower. I need to analyze this. I feel like something valuable is going to appear.
I just wanted to ask why you're making so many changes all at once? How will it be possible for you to tell what effect any one of those changes has?
In a scientific experiment, we make sure we collect sufficient data to be able to tell what effect each variable has on the outcome. Aren't you trying to change way too much each time you update this mod?
I just wanted to ask why you're making so many changes all at once? How will it be possible for you to tell what effect any one of those changes has?
In a scientific experiment, we make sure we collect sufficient data to be able to tell what effect each variable has on the outcome. Aren't you trying to change way too much each time you update this mod?
These are no patchnotes, these are full lists of changes. Well, they mostly follow the same line, so it's okay for now.
Your proclaiming all these problems as solved when you haven't even tested them yet. Add in a little modesty.
Where are you seeing ANYTHING remotely similar to a remark that says he has essentially "fixed balance and the developers can go home now"...?
I have yet to say anything specific on his balance suggestions, becuase frankly I haven't played his MOD.
Which is precisely why people shouldn't be QQing about it. It's one thing to actually play it and come back to say "I've played it, I don't like it, and here's why" - it's quite another to say "I haven't played it, but (insert scathing criticism here)."
Then, when I call out this behaviour the response is "well he isn't nice enough." Seriously? This thread is about a MOD. If you don't like the mod author, sort it out in PMs, those are the forum rules. Otherwise, let's stick to discussing the MOD.
Then I don't know why you replied to me then, since I have yet to 'QQ' about his balance. The main reason I haven't played his MOD is because I can't play NS2 where I'm currently at.
Never said he "isn't nice enough"..more strawman coming from you. If he wants people to download his MOD and support him he really needs to be a bit less obnoxious. In effect, I'm actually trying to help the guy out. I actually like mods like this, but I have hard time getting behind him and reading his posts...its like scratching a chalk board...sorry (EDIT: although his latest patch note is much better..glad I could help).
Which is precisely why people shouldn't be QQing about it. It's one thing to actually play it and come back to say "I've played it, I don't like it, and here's why" - it's quite another to say "I haven't played it, but (insert scathing criticism here)."
I have no interest in playing the guy's mod because he has made it abundantly clear he has absolutely no idea how this game works, and many others seem to feel the same way.
So why are you QQing in the thread then? You haven't played it, you have no intention of playing it, so why complain about it? Do you get a kick out of bashing people?
Yes, it's "just a mod" and the guy is putting in work, but just because something is a commendable effort in theory doesn't mean you have to applaud it.
I've been commending the effort, or perhaps you missed that in my posts above. This game needs mods to grow, and it's fine if you don't like it, but this goes way too far. It's a mod, if you don't like it, don't play it. There is no need to verbally harass the mod author over it - regardless of the content. If he had flying Onos, who cares? Don't like it? Don't play it. Easy.
I don't need to play it to judge it
How about you make your OWN balance mod before you start judging other's mods. It's easy to judge when you don't have the skill or ability to do the same. By all means, let's see your balance mod, and let's see what people think about it.
The effort put forth in this mod is amazing. Personally, I'm quite unhappy with the state of NS2 balance in both public and competitive games.
It amazes me that people are willing to tackle this issue on their own without complaining to UWE. Good luck to you sir! I hope people see the value in this effort, and its possible outcomes.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
It never ceases to amaze me how people cannot give feedback without some unnecessary personal attack or some condescending remarks, as if the feedback they had to give would hold less weight or impact if they didn't at least tell the creator how much of an idiot they are. ugh
That being said..
Your notes need to be more specific and detailed.. they are very vague.
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage. (i'd reduce range slightly and remove individual stacking, then lessen the overall damage by 10%)
2. Hallucinations got 4 times more HP. No onos hallucination. (cool)
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res. (dislike wording like "adjust" .. be specific. You either increase or decrease.)
4. Crags heal 33% slower. (this may be a bit much. reducing the stacking ability and increasing the cost slightly would accomplish the same thing without the frustration of a slow heal)
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research. (you better adjust the effectiveness of these if they are to be hive 2!)
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace. (specifics, again please.. "more base armor" is vague)
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced. (reduction in cost is redundant given that u removed the time and cost of AA)
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost. (so you increased by 5 tres, yes? again, specifics for clarity please)
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res. (360 degrees? radius distance? what specific damage difference??)
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use. (this only enables turtling as we've seen for many months in beta)
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely. (i like this actually.. but reduce the phase gate delay time to 0.1 or 0.2 to compensate )
6. Mines trigger faster. (meh.. aliens can see them anyways with alien vision)
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration. (nice.)
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35% (not sure this was needed..)
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown. (might as well remove it. :-/ )
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts. ( you triple buffed it here.. you may want to restore the cost, as it will mess not just with viability but timing.. which is very important.)
Should look into whips knocking back grenades being a hard counter to GLs, impacting marine hive sieges, as well as alien build times and respawn times being a possible cause for early game alien dominance.
Goodluck
The effort put forth in this mod is amazing. Personally, I'm quite unhappy with the state of NS2 balance in both public and competitive games.
It amazes me that people are willing to tackle this issue on their own without complaining to UWE. Good luck to you sir! I hope people see the value in this effort, and its possible outcomes.
I shall try this for myself.
Glad to hear it! Welcome to the party!
willing to tackle this issue on their own without complaining to UWE
4. Crags heal 33% slower. (this may be a bit much. reducing the stacking ability and increasing the cost slightly would accomplish the same thing without the frustration of a slow heal)
I'll look into it.
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace. (specifics, again please.. "more base armor" is vague)
Gorgie - 120 base armor, Fade - 75.
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced. (reduction in cost is redundant given that u removed the time and cost of AA)
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost.
I added part of it's cost to Prototype Lab. Shotgun, flames and nades all cost 20 res now.
Jetpacks cost 5 more res to research and 5 more to buy.
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res. (360 degrees? radius distance? what specific damage difference??)
360, distance from original, damage from 5 to 8. 1 turret cannot defend RT by itself, but can provide additional defense marines need for rt. In combination with mines should be good.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use. (this only enables turtling as we've seen for many months in beta)
Let's see how it turns out under new circumstances.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely. (i like this actually.. but reduce the phase gate delay time to 0.1 or 0.2 to compensate )
I'll look into it. As a comensation Marines got badass turrets.
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown. (might as well remove it. :-/ )
Why? I think it has a variety of situation to be used in.
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts. ( you triple buffed it here.. you may want to restore the cost, as it will mess not just with viability but timing.. which is very important.)
Exos armor and timings are still to be adjusted.
Should look into whips knocking back grenades being a hard counter to GLs, impacting marine hive sieges
Don't you peep at my to do list
But yoy didn't say anything about important feature - Onos King.
Thank you for detailed questions and interest. Now I found several new issues to deal with.
To save us both the trouble of arguing any further: Yes I do. When it's well deserved. I'll stop "QQing" when the guy stops acting like he is the saviour of NS2. Like I said, I don't really care about the content of the mod and would normally ignore this thread, but heralding it as the game's revelation is almost personally affronting.
It's easy to judge when you don't have the skill or ability to do the same. By all means, let's see your balance mod, and let's see what people think about it.
Really? I mean, REALLY? I can't believe you're dropping this incredibly stupid default defense argument at me. By this logic, most things in the world could never be criticised by anyone. Don't like a book? Shut up or write a better one. Don't like the newest Hollywood action blockbuster? Too bad, better make your own.
Here's the thing: Anyone capable of understanding something is completely justified to criticise it. If you disagree with this, you might want to search for another planet to live on, as this one clearly isn't for you.
To save us both the trouble of arguing any further: Yes I do. When it's well deserved. I'll stop "QQing" when the guy stops acting like he is the saviour of NS2. Like I said, I don't really care about the content of the mod and would normally ignore this thread, but heralding it as the game's revelation is almost personally affronting.
Thread was opened a week ago. I had like 70 hours of work, btw. It could've sound overconfident, but I want to play better ns2. And it has issues. And we all together making ns2 better here. A lot of people gave valuable info. And it's getting better. So many happened during just a sinlge week.
Like I said, I don't really care about the content of the mod and would normally ignore this thread, but heralding it as the game's revelation is almost personally affronting.
I don't see a reason for you to be affronted. Better tell me what bothers you the most about ns2.
It never ceases to amaze me how people cannot give feedback without some unnecessary personal attack or some condescending remarks, as if the feedback they had to give would hold less weight or impact if they didn't at least tell the creator how much of an idiot they are. ugh
That being said..
Your notes need to be more specific and detailed.. they are very vague.
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage. (i'd reduce range slightly and remove individual stacking, then lessen the overall damage by 10%)
2. Hallucinations got 4 times more HP. No onos hallucination. (cool)
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res. (dislike wording like "adjust" .. be specific. You either increase or decrease.)
4. Crags heal 33% slower. (this may be a bit much. reducing the stacking ability and increasing the cost slightly would accomplish the same thing without the frustration of a slow heal)
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research. (you better adjust the effectiveness of these if they are to be hive 2!)
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace. (specifics, again please.. "more base armor" is vague)
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced. (reduction in cost is redundant given that u removed the time and cost of AA)
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost. (so you increased by 5 tres, yes? again, specifics for clarity please)
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res. (360 degrees? radius distance? what specific damage difference??)
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use. (this only enables turtling as we've seen for many months in beta)
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely. (i like this actually.. but reduce the phase gate delay time to 0.1 or 0.2 to compensate )
6. Mines trigger faster. (meh.. aliens can see them anyways with alien vision)
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration. (nice.)
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35% (not sure this was needed..)
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown. (might as well remove it. :-/ )
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts. ( you triple buffed it here.. you may want to restore the cost, as it will mess not just with viability but timing.. which is very important.)
Should look into whips knocking back grenades being a hard counter to GLs, impacting marine hive sieges, as well as alien build times and respawn times being a possible cause for early game alien dominance.
Goodluck
How can you expect people to conduct discourse any differently, especially when you yourself freely call people idiots?
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
edited February 2013
I know no one wants to hear this, but Gorgeous has a lot of big new features that are going to impact the metagame and we simply cannot play enough internal games to figure out where the metagame will go exactly until more people get their hands on it. We do our best and there's plenty of lively discussion going on internally but at the end of the day we won't be able to see the overall balance trend without more data post-release.
Oh, and I have to say I kinda disagree with the assumption of the thread topic. I enjoy NS2.
Like I said, I don't really care about the content of the mod and would normally ignore this thread, but heralding it as the game's revelation is almost personally affronting.
Funny how you seem to be the only one coming to that conclusion. Or have I missed the hordes of posts from other community members who are aghast at the 'audacity' that someone is making a 'balance mod'. Like I said, personal attacks and "bashing people" is contrary to forum policy.
By all means, let's see your balance mod, and let's see what people think about it.
I can't believe you're dropping this incredibly stupid default defense argument at me. By this logic, most things in the world could never be criticised by anyone.
That's not it at all. My point is that you seem to think that *you* have 'all the answers' based on how you are judging the mod author. So like the old saying goes, "put up or shut up". If you think you can do a better job, then let's see it. Otherwise, if you're not going to actually give constructive feedback in a non-insulting manner, why are you here? This mod does not affect the base game in the slightest, so it does not affect your ability to enjoy the game.
If you want to have the last word, go for it. Otherwise, I don't see much point in going back and forth further.
I know no one wants to hear this, but Gorgeous has a lot of big new features that are going to impact the metagame and we simply cannot play enough internal games to figure out where the metagame will go exactly until more people get their hands on it. We do our best and there's plenty of lively discussion going on internally but at the end of the day we won't be able to see the overall balance trend without more data post-release.
Oh, and I have to say I kinda disagree with the assumption of the thread topic. I enjoy NS2.
Note: What I'm saying is not related to this thread at all, but specifically in response to this post.
Disclaimer: My gameplay knowledge comes from the public steam workshop mod that was released. While the numbers on the final railgun exo might be different, I sincerely doubt that the net effect or ease of hitting things is any different, thus what is written below is likely accurate.
I expect Gorgeous is going to be a total shitshow when it comes to the late game. The railgun exo is a completely broken concept that pretty much punches aliens in the balls if there are high skilled marines. It's an awful mechanic because it's based on the idea of "OH IT REWARDS SKILL SHOTS" without accounting for the fact that there's no counter once you have someone who can actually hit those shots.
I mean, as the railgun exo is now, you might as well remove the Fade from the game once you hit Marine late game. The ability to one shot Fades from long range makes their evasion mechanics moot. A good player can and will hit you consistently mid shadowstep with the railgun exo the way it is now. Beyond that, the overall power of it is such that you can probably legitimately just rush railgun exos and straight up win if you have people who are good. The Gorge buffs don't really matter when you essentially have an unlimited range super shotgun at your disposal.
Just a poorly designed gameplay element in general. Like any other game that's designed a sniper rifle style weapon in recent memory, the weapon ends up being grossly overpowered because the design fails to account for people who don't routinely miss shots.
I thought the rail gun did large amounts of 'light' type damage. Basically that means it is a counter to lower life forms, but does poorly against onos.
I also read somewhere that it takes 3 fully charged rail gun shots to kill a fade.
at this point it is all rumor and speculation, but my understanding id that onos counter railguns, but rail guns counter gorges, skulks and lerks, and are about the same effectiveness vs fades as a shotgun marine.
I thought the rail gun did large amounts of 'light' type damage. Basically that means it is a counter to lower life forms, but does poorly against onos.
I also read somewhere that it takes 3 fully charged rail gun shots to kill a fade.
at this point it is all rumor and speculation, but my understanding id that onos counter railguns, but rail guns counter gorges, skulks and lerks, and are about the same effectiveness vs fades as a shotgun marine.
What would the point of that even be? Onos already counters literally everything the Marines have. What Marines really need is anti-Onos gear.
It's an awful mechanic because it's based on the idea of "OH IT REWARDS SKILL SHOTS" without accounting for the fact that there's no counter once you have someone who can actually hit those shots.
Aliens only have about a billion and five abilities that affect Marine visibility and reduces their ability to aim.
I think the minigun has higher dps than the railgun (looking at damage values in balance.lua), and since every single alien class is primarily melee or short range, it will continue to be better than the railgun in the end. The minigun exo is already overpowered but most dont even realize it or acknowledge it... the railgun will most likely be less so than the minigun. In the end most people dont understand why the exo/onos are the way they are, what needs to be done to correct those issues, or why there are alien units that needs buffs or marine items that need nerfs despite the current winrates and balance. If your going to rebalance the game, you need to start at the bottom.
I think the minigun has higher dps than the railgun (looking at damage values in balance.lua), and since every single alien class is primarily melee or short range, it will continue to be better than the railgun in the end. The minigun exo is already overpowered but most dont even realize it or acknowledge it... the railgun will most likely be less so than the minigun. In the end most people dont understand why the exo/onos are the way they are, what needs to be done to correct those issues, or why there are alien units that needs buffs or marine items that need nerfs despite the current winrates and balance. If your going to rebalance the game, you need to start at the bottom.
I did some testing on it with what was leaked with another player who was competent last night. Unless it's severely nerfed from the leak, it's pretty definitively better than the minigun exo in the hands of someone who can aim. It's slightly better against onos, and way better against fades.
As a solo railgun exo, it kills an onos in 3 volleys (3 double shot volleys + 150ish of random marine damage). While DPS wise it works out to being extremely similar to the minigun exo, the burst damage ends up making it considerably better. If you have two railgun exos charging up before an onos shows up, the onos is going to be forced to instantly retreat. All in all, unless the final version is severely nerfed, the railgun is actually slightly better against onos in real scenarios.
I agree that the current minigun exo is crazy strong, and people don't realize it because they have awful aim. So talking about how the railgun exo poops on skulks/fades/gorges is sort of irrelevant since the minigun does the same thing to a similar degree of effectiveness. The real problem is the net effect on fades, because fades can semi-reliably get in/out for harassment on minigun exos as they are now. Fades will not be able to do that vs railgun exos due to the nature of burst damage vs high sustained damage.
I know no one wants to hear this, but Gorgeous has a lot of big new features that are going to impact the metagame and we simply cannot play enough internal games to figure out where the metagame will go exactly until more people get their hands on it. We do our best and there's plenty of lively discussion going on internally but at the end of the day we won't be able to see the overall balance trend without more data post-release.
Oh, and I have to say I kinda disagree with the assumption of the thread topic. I enjoy NS2.
Note: What I'm saying is not related to this thread at all, but specifically in response to this post.
Disclaimer: My gameplay knowledge comes from the public steam workshop mod that was released. While the numbers on the final railgun exo might be different, I sincerely doubt that the net effect or ease of hitting things is any different, thus what is written below is likely accurate.
I expect Gorgeous is going to be a total shitshow when it comes to the late game. The railgun exo is a completely broken concept that pretty much punches aliens in the balls if there are high skilled marines. It's an awful mechanic because it's based on the idea of "OH IT REWARDS SKILL SHOTS" without accounting for the fact that there's no counter once you have someone who can actually hit those shots.
I mean, as the railgun exo is now, you might as well remove the Fade from the game once you hit Marine late game. The ability to one shot Fades from long range makes their evasion mechanics moot. A good player can and will hit you consistently mid shadowstep with the railgun exo the way it is now. Beyond that, the overall power of it is such that you can probably legitimately just rush railgun exos and straight up win if you have people who are good. The Gorge buffs don't really matter when you essentially have an unlimited range super shotgun at your disposal.
Just a poorly designed gameplay element in general. Like any other game that's designed a sniper rifle style weapon in recent memory, the weapon ends up being grossly overpowered because the design fails to account for people who don't routinely miss shots.
That theory pops up internally, as do counter-theories. Usually, as soon as we see an actual example in a test game a counter-example appears the next day if not the very next game. The point remains: without additional data it's just not very helpful to speculate. I wish I could clarify some of the details but I'm pretty sure that until the patch notes are finalized we can't say anything. :<
It in no way can 7 shot an onos, i think you messed up testing the damage values. It would take over 13 shots to kill an onos with the railgun, let alone a carapace onos. Pretty sure a single onos could kill 2 dual railgun exos pretty easily. Not sure what damage values you are using.
Comments
You realize the people working on engine level / graphic options have virtually zero to do with balance and gameplay mechanics. So even if max was working on making a seperate rendering engine based on voxels or whatever it would have zero impact on the developers ability to work on gameplay or balance.
That's productive.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=127813673
Phase 2: "Onos King"
Current version: 2.0
Reworked onos system. Onos can only be created by Khammender with at least two hives. It costs 150 res. It has 4000 hp and 750(1000) armor. No stomp. If you let it come, it's too late for you to run.
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
2. Hallucinations got 4 times more HP. No onos hallucination.
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res.
4. Crags heal 33% slower.
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research.
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace.
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced.
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost.
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster.
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts.
We have pushed the left flank till subsector, got PG there. And holded 4-5 points for some time. Aliens were taking down our RTs, but we defended them well. 10 minutes of constant rts assaults. The most annoying part. Then some people layed mines.
Crucial moment: they got tired of munching RTs and started individual onos-fades attacks. So they wasted their Tech Explosion advantage. 10-15 minutes later we got latest tech, and slaughtered them hive by hive with ARC-Exo-Marine train.
Another note - they placed a good barricade with crags and whips at Topo, but didn't have p.res to buy anything scary.
If they formed a Well Known Train, we would've lost, cause we didn't have enough firepower. I need to analyze this. I feel like something valuable is going to appear.
In a scientific experiment, we make sure we collect sufficient data to be able to tell what effect each variable has on the outcome. Aren't you trying to change way too much each time you update this mod?
These are no patchnotes, these are full lists of changes. Well, they mostly follow the same line, so it's okay for now.
Then I don't know why you replied to me then, since I have yet to 'QQ' about his balance. The main reason I haven't played his MOD is because I can't play NS2 where I'm currently at.
Never said he "isn't nice enough"..more strawman coming from you. If he wants people to download his MOD and support him he really needs to be a bit less obnoxious. In effect, I'm actually trying to help the guy out. I actually like mods like this, but I have hard time getting behind him and reading his posts...its like scratching a chalk board...sorry (EDIT: although his latest patch note is much better..glad I could help).
And I'm glad you came along to leave a feedback. This is an efficient way of creating something decent in short time.
It amazes me that people are willing to tackle this issue on their own without complaining to UWE. Good luck to you sir! I hope people see the value in this effort, and its possible outcomes.
I shall try this for myself.
That being said..
Your notes need to be more specific and detailed.. they are very vague.
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage. (i'd reduce range slightly and remove individual stacking, then lessen the overall damage by 10%)
2. Hallucinations got 4 times more HP. No onos hallucination. (cool)
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res. (dislike wording like "adjust" .. be specific. You either increase or decrease.)
4. Crags heal 33% slower. (this may be a bit much. reducing the stacking ability and increasing the cost slightly would accomplish the same thing without the frustration of a slow heal)
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. All abilities cost 30 res to research. (you better adjust the effectiveness of these if they are to be hive 2!)
6. Carapace nerfed. Gorge, Fade and Onos have more base armor and armor level with carapace is old. Skulks have 20 armor with carapace. (specifics, again please.. "more base armor" is vague)
-Marines-
1. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced. (reduction in cost is redundant given that u removed the time and cost of AA)
2. Prototype Lab costs 50 res, jetpack tech and jetpacks +5 res cost. (so you increased by 5 tres, yes? again, specifics for clarity please)
3. Sentry. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Higher damage, 7 res. (360 degrees? radius distance? what specific damage difference??)
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use. (this only enables turtling as we've seen for many months in beta)
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely. (i like this actually.. but reduce the phase gate delay time to 0.1 or 0.2 to compensate )
6. Mines trigger faster. (meh.. aliens can see them anyways with alien vision)
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration. (nice.)
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35% (not sure this was needed..)
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown. (might as well remove it. :-/ )
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts. ( you triple buffed it here.. you may want to restore the cost, as it will mess not just with viability but timing.. which is very important.)
Should look into whips knocking back grenades being a hard counter to GLs, impacting marine hive sieges, as well as alien build times and respawn times being a possible cause for early game alien dominance.
Goodluck
Glad to hear it! Welcome to the party!
I did complain. But no one cares
Community helps a lot and I have spare time. This amount would took at least a month otherwise. Thank you! I hope you enjoy it!
Well, I'm glad you are so interested in details.
I'll look into it.
Gorgie - 120 base armor, Fade - 75.
I added part of it's cost to Prototype Lab. Shotgun, flames and nades all cost 20 res now.
Jetpacks cost 5 more res to research and 5 more to buy.
360, distance from original, damage from 5 to 8. 1 turret cannot defend RT by itself, but can provide additional defense marines need for rt. In combination with mines should be good.
Let's see how it turns out under new circumstances.
I'll look into it. As a comensation Marines got badass turrets.
Why? I think it has a variety of situation to be used in.
Exos armor and timings are still to be adjusted.
Don't you peep at my to do list
But yoy didn't say anything about important feature - Onos King.
Thank you for detailed questions and interest. Now I found several new issues to deal with.
Really? I mean, REALLY? I can't believe you're dropping this incredibly stupid default defense argument at me. By this logic, most things in the world could never be criticised by anyone. Don't like a book? Shut up or write a better one. Don't like the newest Hollywood action blockbuster? Too bad, better make your own.
Here's the thing: Anyone capable of understanding something is completely justified to criticise it. If you disagree with this, you might want to search for another planet to live on, as this one clearly isn't for you.
Thread was opened a week ago. I had like 70 hours of work, btw. It could've sound overconfident, but I want to play better ns2. And it has issues. And we all together making ns2 better here. A lot of people gave valuable info. And it's getting better. So many happened during just a sinlge week.
I don't see a reason for you to be affronted. Better tell me what bothers you the most about ns2.
How can you expect people to conduct discourse any differently, especially when you yourself freely call people idiots?
Oh, and I have to say I kinda disagree with the assumption of the thread topic. I enjoy NS2.
If you want to have the last word, go for it. Otherwise, I don't see much point in going back and forth further.
Note: What I'm saying is not related to this thread at all, but specifically in response to this post.
Disclaimer: My gameplay knowledge comes from the public steam workshop mod that was released. While the numbers on the final railgun exo might be different, I sincerely doubt that the net effect or ease of hitting things is any different, thus what is written below is likely accurate.
I expect Gorgeous is going to be a total shitshow when it comes to the late game. The railgun exo is a completely broken concept that pretty much punches aliens in the balls if there are high skilled marines. It's an awful mechanic because it's based on the idea of "OH IT REWARDS SKILL SHOTS" without accounting for the fact that there's no counter once you have someone who can actually hit those shots.
I mean, as the railgun exo is now, you might as well remove the Fade from the game once you hit Marine late game. The ability to one shot Fades from long range makes their evasion mechanics moot. A good player can and will hit you consistently mid shadowstep with the railgun exo the way it is now. Beyond that, the overall power of it is such that you can probably legitimately just rush railgun exos and straight up win if you have people who are good. The Gorge buffs don't really matter when you essentially have an unlimited range super shotgun at your disposal.
Just a poorly designed gameplay element in general. Like any other game that's designed a sniper rifle style weapon in recent memory, the weapon ends up being grossly overpowered because the design fails to account for people who don't routinely miss shots.
I also read somewhere that it takes 3 fully charged rail gun shots to kill a fade.
at this point it is all rumor and speculation, but my understanding id that onos counter railguns, but rail guns counter gorges, skulks and lerks, and are about the same effectiveness vs fades as a shotgun marine.
What would the point of that even be? Onos already counters literally everything the Marines have. What Marines really need is anti-Onos gear.
Aliens only have about a billion and five abilities that affect Marine visibility and reduces their ability to aim.
I did some testing on it with what was leaked with another player who was competent last night. Unless it's severely nerfed from the leak, it's pretty definitively better than the minigun exo in the hands of someone who can aim. It's slightly better against onos, and way better against fades.
As a solo railgun exo, it kills an onos in 3 volleys (3 double shot volleys + 150ish of random marine damage). While DPS wise it works out to being extremely similar to the minigun exo, the burst damage ends up making it considerably better. If you have two railgun exos charging up before an onos shows up, the onos is going to be forced to instantly retreat. All in all, unless the final version is severely nerfed, the railgun is actually slightly better against onos in real scenarios.
I agree that the current minigun exo is crazy strong, and people don't realize it because they have awful aim. So talking about how the railgun exo poops on skulks/fades/gorges is sort of irrelevant since the minigun does the same thing to a similar degree of effectiveness. The real problem is the net effect on fades, because fades can semi-reliably get in/out for harassment on minigun exos as they are now. Fades will not be able to do that vs railgun exos due to the nature of burst damage vs high sustained damage.
That theory pops up internally, as do counter-theories. Usually, as soon as we see an actual example in a test game a counter-example appears the next day if not the very next game. The point remains: without additional data it's just not very helpful to speculate. I wish I could clarify some of the details but I'm pretty sure that until the patch notes are finalized we can't say anything. :<