Well, If mines are spammed a lot, higher trigger speed might be too much. I'll look more carefully at it.
The more complex answer as to why bile bomb has to be as powerful as it is, is that aliens straight up have less combat power than marines. They make up the difference in combat power via flanking and smart areas to engage in. The aliens don't have anything strong in their bag of tricks when it comes to flanking and/or surprise when attacking an enemy base. The alien team is in every way at a combat disadvantage all things being equal. Bile bomb is the one thing that lets an alien team do substantial damage to a base despite losing the battle. And when all things are equal, the alien team will lose when attacking an equally defended marine base. A nerfed bile bomb essentially means that aliens cannot do enough damage in a losing fight to break a turtle and win the game.
OnosRapeTrain got no brackes. Without blocked entrances with armories - last base marines get a ticket no matter what.
1.) If you're going regen Onos, your understanding of game mechanics is at a lower level than I even thought beforehand. It is an awful choice that has zero upside given the trade off.
2.) Regen Onos dies in 2-4 seconds of sustained fire from two exos. You could do the math to find the exact number, but your onos living in that situation is a case of stormtrooper marine aim and nothing more. Two exos have a truly obscene level of sustained damage. God only knows how one of the two exos managed to not hit something as big as an onos.
You want to see me as a retarded, low skilled person after every example I give, for some reason. That game was a joke, there were not enough crags/gorges, so I took Regen for higher harassment capabilities. When two exos appeared I thought "why the #### not" and attacked. It was surpising, that even with about 10 meters distance between us I managed to kill one.
Most of our disagreements come from me setting mod for a 3/5 skilled players and you implying game should be around 4.5/5 skilled players.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time.
I recall crunching the numbers for this, and the EXO should be able to kill an Onos many times over before his guns overheat.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time.
I recall crunching the numbers for this, and the EXO should be able to kill an Onos many times over before his guns overheat.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
I don't think I can recall a single time that I have killed an Onos in one volley of dual minigun fire.
Now I aint no quickdraw fanatic or nuthin, but I'd like to think I can hit the broad side of an Onos.
Similarly, I can't recall ever being killed in a single volley from an enemy Exo.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time.
I recall crunching the numbers for this, and the EXO should be able to kill an Onos many times over before his guns overheat.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
I don't think I can recall a single time that I have killed an Onos in one volley of dual minigun fire.
Now I aint no quickdraw fanatic or nuthin, but I'd like to think I can hit the broad side of an Onos.
Similarly, I can't recall ever being killed in a single volley from an enemy Exo.
Perhaps the spread caused you to miss a few rounds?
It's that or this "hitbox" issue because it has the damage capability.
If you crunch the numbers for firepower of the Onos it doesn't seem possible that the Onos can last attacking head-on against an EXO - yet he does.
Onos just has 2,5 times more health+armor(if take armor for 2 points of health) than Exo. Exo simply can't outdamage that in time.
I recall crunching the numbers for this, and the EXO should be able to kill an Onos many times over before his guns overheat.
He has 1300 health and 900 armor (with carapace). Since the minigun does 'heavy' damage, the Onos' armor will only absorb damage on a one-to-one basis. So that's 2200 'effective health' on the Onos.
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
The more I think about it, the more I think the reason why the EXO sucks versus the Onos is because the Onos just isn't getting hit because his model is over top of the EXO. I know the bullet spread is obscene, but even with that if the Onos is sitting on top of the EXO the bullet spread shouldn't be a factor.
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
I think people panic at the guns overheating. If you just grit your teeth and keep shooting till both guns block you normally have a dead onos in front of you. Although given the numbers @Savant posted onos do seem to die very slowly when in your face, this hitbox business may have something to it.
So, I've looked through code and did some test drives. Truth about exos.
Exos don't shoot bullets like rifles do. They're implement via special function. And those 250 bullets, that we though are fired away every clip are barely used. The truth is:
1 unupgraded minigun deals 1150 damage to the target no matter what, treating both armor and hp alike(well, that's Heavy Damage and it works right). In case of every bullet hits. Including staying inside of an Onos's hallucination.
Carapace Onos has 2300 points. 2 unupgraded miniguns deal 2200. Ironic, isn't it?
But, minigun got a pretty big spread. So, you can do the rest of math.
The one thing I didn't think throughout my entire first evening of playing these last night was that the balance was off. Honestly. It's like a whole new game. You should give it a try if you haven't already, it might change your mind about the current state of the game!
The one thing I didn't think throughout my entire first evening of playing these last night was that the balance was off. Honestly. It's like a whole new game. You should give it a try if you haven't already, it might change your mind about the current state of the game!
The EXO minigun does 25 damage per bullet. That means the EXO needs to connect with 88 bullets to kill an Onos. The minigun has a clip size of *250 bullets for each gun*. So the EXO should be able to kill an Onos more than 5 times over before the guns overheat. Yet how many times have you seen an Onos attacking an EXO head on and not dying?
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
Agreed, the times I see the Onos die are usually when the Onos has been hit at range. Only rarely do I see an Onos die when he is 'on top' of the EXO.
However, the Onos is the only one (to my knowledge) that has a collision box that is smaller than the model. Now since it wouldn't be logical to make the Onos hitbox any smaller than the model, it stands to reason that if you press an Onos into an EXO so that the Onos model overlaps it, one or both weapons would be *inside* the Onos model when firing. So I'd love to know if bullets shot from inside the Onos actually cause any damage.
However, the Onos is the only one (to my knowledge) that has a collision box that is smaller than the model. Now since it wouldn't be logical to make the Onos hitbox any smaller than the model, it stands to reason that if you press an Onos into an EXO so that the Onos model overlaps it, one or both weapons would be *inside* the Onos model when firing. So I'd love to know if bullets shot from inside the Onos actually cause any damage.
I tried that on Hallucinations. They don't have collision at all. I was shooting from inside of them and all hits where registered.
I forgot that hit-reg got a lot better and shooties are biting hard now. And another thing.
That resulted into 12 additional features and changes in already made once.
Erryone gonna like it, cause it's so actual now. Only left to limit armories. I'll try to upload within 2 hours.
I tried that on Hallucinations. They don't have collision at all. I was shooting from inside of them and all hits where registered.
Well I don't know what to say then, although it might be better if you can recruit a friend to go Onos on an explore mode server and try versus an EXO with the Onos right on top and overlapping your model. Otherwise it defies logic that the EXO has the firepower to kill an Onos 5 times over yet has great difficulty doing so when the Onos is closer rather than further away.
I dont know where you got that random number for the exo's *clip size*, but I dont think that is anywhere near accurate. For a single minigun to fire 250 rounds in the 5 seconds it takes to overheat, it would need to fire more than twice as fast as the rifle.
Savant, look just a little above. I explained Exo's firepower. It deals as much as it has to.
forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2081277/#Comment_2081277
I dont know where you got that random number for the exo's *clip size*, but I dont think that is anywhere near accurate. For a single minigun to fire 250 rounds in the 5 seconds it takes to overheat, it would need to fire more than twice as fast as the rifle.
According to my findings, it fires around 46 bullets per full overheat.
Theres NO AMMO for miniguns... why would it even have a clip size, much less why would it even matter if it doesnt have ammo? Most likely that variable is just leftover from before when they were debating different paths for the minigun, like a bunch of other variables in the balance files.
So, I've looked through code and did some test drives. Truth about exos.
Exos don't shoot bullets like rifles do. They're implement via special function. And those 250 bullets, that we though are fired away every clip are barely used. The truth is:
1 unupgraded minigun deals 1150 damage to the target no matter what, treating both armor and hp alike(well, that's Heavy Damage and it works right). In case of every bullet hits. Including staying inside of an Onos's hallucination.
Carapace Onos has 2300 points. 2 unupgraded miniguns deal 2200. Ironic, isn't it?
But, minigun got a pretty big spread. So, you can do the rest of math.
umm, 1150 + 1150 is 2300. also, are we sure that ibis attack doesn't stutter firing?
That being said, I commend your efforts to try and provide a better balanced game, it's good to keep the discussion going at least.
No, no, no, don't judge yet! Judge in several hours, after I apply latest changes. I understand very well what you meant. I saw it clearly last game. We, aliens, just turtled marine's assault and came back with multi-onos roflstomp.
So, I've looked through code and did some test drives. Truth about exos.
Exos don't shoot bullets like rifles do. They're implement via special function. And those 250 bullets, that we though are fired away every clip are barely used. The truth is:
1 unupgraded minigun deals 1150 damage to the target no matter what, treating both armor and hp alike(well, that's Heavy Damage and it works right). In case of every bullet hits. Including staying inside of an Onos's hallucination.
Carapace Onos has 2300 points. 2 unupgraded miniguns deal 2200. Ironic, isn't it?
But, minigun got a pretty big spread. So, you can do the rest of math.
umm, 1150 + 1150 is 2300. also, are we sure that ibis attack doesn't stutter firing?
Oh lord, right. 2300. I think it doesn't disturb Exos firing. On practice dual Exo rarely can hadle an Onos. Because you start firing from some distance at least 1 buller misses and it's over. Onos dashes at you, does double sprint damage and finishes Exo off before it can start firing again.
And to be even more correct, it's almost unreal to see a single onos against a single exo. It's a team game after all.
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
2. Hallucinations got 3 times more HP.
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res.
4. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. Research time is increased. Costs adjusted.
6. Khammander can't drop Onos eggs.
7. Gorge, Fade and Onos altered to have more base armor. Amount of armor with Carapace is the same.
8. Fade altered to have significantly more survivability and less mobility with Shadow step.
-Marines-
1. Tech Tree became less expensive, more posibilities for staring builds and general strategy.
2. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced.
3. Sentry altered to be an offensive tool. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Damage is the same, has a blind zone of 90 degrees.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster.
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts.
Summary:
1. Macroeconomy balance problem fixed via costs, tech tree adjustments and additional assault capabilities of Marines.
2. Combat balance fixed.
3. And what turned out to be my first priority - a ####load of new possible strategies. Now we can play NS2 on MAX.
That's Natural Selection 2 we all are going to enjoy.
Summary:
1. Macroeconomy balance problem fixed via costs, tech tree adjustments and additional assault capabilities of Marines.
2. Combat balance fixed.
3. And what turned out to be my first priority - a ####load of new possible strategies. Now we can play NS2 on MAX.
That's Natural Selection 2 we all are going to enjoy.
BigTracer, this is exactly what rubs people the wrong way about your "balance" mod. Your proclaiming all these problems as solved when you haven't even tested them yet.
Add in a little modesty. Try it could work. Put it your patch notes.
Summary:
1. Macroeconomy balance problem fixed via costs, tech tree adjustments and additional assault capabilities of Marines.
2. Combat balance fixed.
3. And what turned out to be my first priority - a ####load of new possible strategies. Now we can play NS2 on MAX.
That's Natural Selection 2 we all are going to enjoy.
BigTracer, this is exactly what rubs people the wrong way about your "balance" mod. Your proclaiming all these problems as solved when you haven't even tested them yet.
Add in a little modesty. Try it could work. Put it your patch notes.
I have tried them out in Explore mode. And I have a lot of meditation over them. This is the full list of changes from build 239.
If I had a lack of confidence, people would just ignore this mod alltogether. This is not my first mod, so I can figure out a lot of things just in my imagination.
That's Natural Selection 2 we all are going to enjoy.
BigTracer, this is exactly what rubs people the wrong way about your "balance" mod. Your proclaiming all these problems as solved when you haven't even tested them yet. Add in a little modesty. Try it could work. Put it your patch notes.
Where are you seeing ANYTHING remotely similar to a remark that says he has essentially "fixed balance and the developers can go home now"...?
Honestly, I have never seen so many people whine about a mod they have never played before.
News flash. It's a balance MOD. That means it is one person's view about how they want to see the game played. It doesn't mean anything more than that. If he thinks he has the answers, good for him. Let's try it out and see if that's true or not.
Either play it or don't play it. People would be better to vote with their disconnect buttons instead of all the QQ in here. If he had flying Onos, does it matter? It's a MOD. It's not going to magically become UWE's next patch.
Comments
Well, If mines are spammed a lot, higher trigger speed might be too much. I'll look more carefully at it.
OnosRapeTrain got no brackes. Without blocked entrances with armories - last base marines get a ticket no matter what.
You want to see me as a retarded, low skilled person after every example I give, for some reason. That game was a joke, there were not enough crags/gorges, so I took Regen for higher harassment capabilities. When two exos appeared I thought "why the #### not" and attacked. It was surpising, that even with about 10 meters distance between us I managed to kill one.
Most of our disagreements come from me setting mod for a 3/5 skilled players and you implying game should be around 4.5/5 skilled players.
I've never had this issue as a dual exo. I think it only happens to people who either miss.. or perhaps the hitbox issue that you spoke of. But I can't think of a time I haven't peaced an Onos coming straight at me with a dual minigun exo.
I don't think I can recall a single time that I have killed an Onos in one volley of dual minigun fire.
Now I aint no quickdraw fanatic or nuthin, but I'd like to think I can hit the broad side of an Onos.
Similarly, I can't recall ever being killed in a single volley from an enemy Exo.
Perhaps the spread caused you to miss a few rounds?
It's that or this "hitbox" issue because it has the damage capability.
I think people panic at the guns overheating. If you just grit your teeth and keep shooting till both guns block you normally have a dead onos in front of you. Although given the numbers @Savant posted onos do seem to die very slowly when in your face, this hitbox business may have something to it.
So, I've looked through code and did some test drives. Truth about exos.
Exos don't shoot bullets like rifles do. They're implement via special function. And those 250 bullets, that we though are fired away every clip are barely used. The truth is:
1 unupgraded minigun deals 1150 damage to the target no matter what, treating both armor and hp alike(well, that's Heavy Damage and it works right). In case of every bullet hits. Including staying inside of an Onos's hallucination.
Carapace Onos has 2300 points. 2 unupgraded miniguns deal 2200. Ironic, isn't it?
But, minigun got a pretty big spread. So, you can do the rest of math.
The one thing I didn't think throughout my entire first evening of playing these last night was that the balance was off. Honestly. It's like a whole new game. You should give it a try if you haven't already, it might change your mind about the current state of the game!
Roo
Thank you, I gotta look into it!
However, the Onos is the only one (to my knowledge) that has a collision box that is smaller than the model. Now since it wouldn't be logical to make the Onos hitbox any smaller than the model, it stands to reason that if you press an Onos into an EXO so that the Onos model overlaps it, one or both weapons would be *inside* the Onos model when firing. So I'd love to know if bullets shot from inside the Onos actually cause any damage.
I tried that on Hallucinations. They don't have collision at all. I was shooting from inside of them and all hits where registered.
I forgot that hit-reg got a lot better and shooties are biting hard now. And another thing.
That resulted into 12 additional features and changes in already made once.
Erryone gonna like it, cause it's so actual now. Only left to limit armories. I'll try to upload within 2 hours.
forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2081277/#Comment_2081277
According to my findings, it fires around 46 bullets per full overheat.
So no, it's not a "random number" at all.
For a player - nothing. If you could fire from both guns for over 12.5 sec, you would run out of ammo.
Testing latets changes now, before uploading. A lot of them.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4zzrh027jfQ__Xe61tQC3U3Y94O4oSs-G079_J85xY/edit is a summary of the discussion that took place in that thread and I honestly don't see how any of these changes address the issues highlighted.
That being said, I commend your efforts to try and provide a better balanced game, it's good to keep the discussion going at least.
umm, 1150 + 1150 is 2300. also, are we sure that ibis attack doesn't stutter firing?
No, no, no, don't judge yet! Judge in several hours, after I apply latest changes. I understand very well what you meant. I saw it clearly last game. We, aliens, just turtled marine's assault and came back with multi-onos roflstomp.
Oh lord, right. 2300. I think it doesn't disturb Exos firing. On practice dual Exo rarely can hadle an Onos. Because you start firing from some distance at least 1 buller misses and it's over. Onos dashes at you, does double sprint damage and finishes Exo off before it can start firing again.
And to be even more correct, it's almost unreal to see a single onos against a single exo. It's a team game after all.
Current version: 1.5
Features:
-Aliens-
1. Bilebomb: -20% damage.
2. Hallucinations got 3 times more HP.
3. Adjusted costs of Chambers to 10 res and Evolutions to 15. Shift Hatch reduced to 3 res.
4. Crags only heal up to 65% of your constitution.
5. Xenocide, Umbra and Vortex are available at Second Hive. Research time is increased. Costs adjusted.
6. Khammander can't drop Onos eggs.
7. Gorge, Fade and Onos altered to have more base armor. Amount of armor with Carapace is the same.
8. Fade altered to have significantly more survivability and less mobility with Shadow step.
-Marines-
1. Tech Tree became less expensive, more posibilities for staring builds and general strategy.
2. Advanced Armory got removed, functionality passed to basic Armory. 2 per room max, to prevent turtling. Costs sligtly reduced.
3. Sentry altered to be an offensive tool. 1 per room, doesn't require power, can be built on infestation, reacts faster. Damage is the same, has a blind zone of 90 degrees.
4. Batteries work as small reserve power sources for structures. 1 per room, small radius. Don't need Robotics to use.
5. Phase Gates are limited to 3 per map. Use them wisely.
6. Mines trigger faster.
7. Slightly higher jetpack acceleration.
8. ARCs HP reduced to 1500, damage reduced by 35%
9. Nanoshield: 35% dmg reduction and 60 sec cooldown.
10. Claw Exo cost reduced to 35 res. All exos get slighlty more armor and can crush cysts.
Summary:
1. Macroeconomy balance problem fixed via costs, tech tree adjustments and additional assault capabilities of Marines.
2. Combat balance fixed.
3. And what turned out to be my first priority - a ####load of new possible strategies. Now we can play NS2 on MAX.
That's Natural Selection 2 we all are going to enjoy.
BigTracer, this is exactly what rubs people the wrong way about your "balance" mod. Your proclaiming all these problems as solved when you haven't even tested them yet.
Add in a little modesty. Try it could work. Put it your patch notes.
I have tried them out in Explore mode. And I have a lot of meditation over them. This is the full list of changes from build 239.
If I had a lack of confidence, people would just ignore this mod alltogether. This is not my first mod, so I can figure out a lot of things just in my imagination.
I can tell without doubt, now it's a lot of fun.
Ohh I see...
Don't confuse a good dose of modesty with a lack of confidence.
Honestly, I have never seen so many people whine about a mod they have never played before.
News flash. It's a balance MOD. That means it is one person's view about how they want to see the game played. It doesn't mean anything more than that. If he thinks he has the answers, good for him. Let's try it out and see if that's true or not.
Either play it or don't play it. People would be better to vote with their disconnect buttons instead of all the QQ in here. If he had flying Onos, does it matter? It's a MOD. It's not going to magically become UWE's next patch.
People need to relax. Seriously.