DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I can not possible imagine why the current changelist for the balance mod is any good. (unless I misread/misunderstood, in which case.. let me know)
* most people dislike waiting even longer in respawn queue. Let alone that marines do not need nerfs.
* Nanoshield costs res. its a good res to result for marines to use, especially on power nodes and marines. I can somewhat understand if they up cost or cooldown, but not duration. The rescost to result simply becomes not worth it.
Marines already have enought stuff which is not worth it. Lets not add even more to that list.
* more expensive armslab ups. Marines do not need more nerfs at this moment. If you want to slow marine power lateron, increase the higher upgrades on the armslab, instead of them all?
* Crags take res to build. I do not see a real reason to cap at 2 instead of 3. Radius decrease is easily countered by comms with placement, so I guess that could work well.
* having the aliens on a different spawn system, may make it harder to balance & learn but makes them more unique. Asymetrical has always been a strong part of NS, and I hate to see more of it go.
If you don't think that you can fix imbalances on marines and aliens at the same time, even in a game/time where aliens are winning 60%, I'm sorry to say but you shouldnt be balancing games.
My employer disagrees with you. Nevertheless, my point isn't that they can't fix imbalances on both teams at the same time, it's that they should focus on imbalances that will provide the best outcome from a balance perspecive.
Let's be clear here, if you have ever balanced a game you'll know that there is no such thing as a single patch which fixes everything and we all get to go home and the job is done. It never happens. Fixing balance issues is kinda like tipping over a vending machine - you need to rock it a few times before it will start to tip over.
If we play a game of make-believe here, let's imagine this patch we're bickering about didn't exist. Instead in its place is a patch that everyone agrees will likely bring the alien win rate to 75%. Now, let's also imagine that these balance changes are still necessary. Do you make these balance changes *NOW*, or do you say "OK, let's keep these balance changes on the back burner and release them when things are a bit more balanced."...?
So again, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any particular balance changes made. What I am saying is *if* such alien friendly balance changes need to be made, that they either be put off until balance improves, or they be coupled with other marine balance buffs that will negate the impact of the alien balance changes.
For example, the changes to nanoshield, while perhaps justifiable, don't necessarily have to be done NOW. There are no game breaking tactics marines are using that exploit nanoshield in such a way that it demands a nerf right this very second. That's the bottom line here.
I see the intention of this new spawn system.. But it still seems to me like an easy win once entering the hive? Maybe if the amount of eggs were more? Idk. Also wonder how well this scales, if at all, with higher player counts, as mentioned.
Definitely curious to try it out now though..
I think the deciding factor will be how it interacts with the egg spawning system. If the egg spawn rate is much higher than the respawn rate the hive will quickly wind up with a glut of eggs, making an egglock quite difficult. But if the egg spawn rate is lower than the respawn rate, all the marines have to do is kill aliens at rate higher than 1 per 7 secs and the aliens will egglock themselves.
Either way, as the aliens get more hives there will be more eggs left in each hive (as the per hive respawn rate goes from 1 every 7 seconds, to 1 every 14 seconds, then 1 every 21 seconds and so on).
The whole thing leaves me wondering what the cap on eggs per hive is.
If your thinking that the nanoshield changes alone would change the marine winrates even 1% your mistaken... Its like saying the welders massive attack cone is causing marine wins... Its a broken mechanic not a balance change. The spawn rate changes need to go hand in hand, changing just the alien spawn rates would completely unbalance the game in reverse if the marines remained untouched. Of course if the only balance changes your going to make would make aliens win more games, then its something that would be best to wait. None of these changes should cause aliens to win more games, it would be less. Your making up a argument about a case that doesnt even exist....
The change to alien spawning will require them to coordinate rushes. Right now you just respawn with everyone you just died with and continue holding W while you swarm back to wherever you died.
This should place more emphasis on good skulk play (hopefully fewer alien wins where all the aliens have lower than 1:1 KDR).
Egglock concerns are certainly warranted. But it puts alien base frailty about on par with power-nodes v bile-bomb. However, that situation is far from ideal and probably shouldn't be mirrored on the alien team. Testing should show more.
With the current numbers, aliens will always have a full room of eggs provided the marines don't disturb them. The only way to egglock is by killing all 9 eggs. If anything egglocking would be harder, except that hive defense in general is weaker due to the slower spawns.
There are no game breaking tactics marines are using that exploit nanoshield in such a way that it demands a nerf right this very second. That's the bottom line here.
The times I've seen a nano marine in competitive play take on an entire team beg to differ.
Aliens are supposed to wave spawn. I think they should leave wave spawn alone and balance around that, rather than change it to the marine queue style spawn in order to balance it.
Aliens are supposed to wave spawn. I think they should leave wave spawn alone and balance around that, rather than change it to the marine queue style spawn in order to balance it.
By who's rulebook does it say they are "supposed to".
Nanoshield on players is in general a ridiculous mechanic. It synergizes way, way too well with medpack spam, and overbuffs the side that's stronger at combat to begin with. Against competent shotgun marines, a fade has to work extremely hard (in conjunction with other aliens) to get kills without getting instantly crushed. Nanoshield turns a hard job into mission impossible when you have both a competent commander and a top level player (ie: what you get in comp).
The idea of the commander buffing a player is cool, but the chosen buff and the mechanics behind it are just terrible.
Nanoshield on players is in general a ridiculous mechanic. It synergizes way, way too well with medpack spam, and overbuffs the side that's stronger at combat to begin with. Against competent shotgun marines, a fade has to work extremely hard (in conjunction with other aliens) to get kills without getting instantly crushed. Nanoshield turns a hard job into mission impossible when you have both a competent commander and a top level player (ie: what you get in comp).
The idea of the commander buffing a player is cool, but the chosen buff and the mechanics behind it are just terrible.
Heaven forbid aliens will have to work for something for once
Nanoshield on players is in general a ridiculous mechanic. It synergizes way, way too well with medpack spam, and overbuffs the side that's stronger at combat to begin with. Against competent shotgun marines, a fade has to work extremely hard (in conjunction with other aliens) to get kills without getting instantly crushed. Nanoshield turns a hard job into mission impossible when you have both a competent commander and a top level player (ie: what you get in comp).
The idea of the commander buffing a player is cool, but the chosen buff and the mechanics behind it are just terrible.
Heaven forbid aliens will have to work for something for once
Swiping a Marine more than 6+ times (or even more potentially) would seem like an absurd amount of work no?
Why not come up with a decent counter for the nano-shield.
Bile bombs turns it off, or poison bite ignores nano shield entirely. Whatever you can come up with. Would be more interesting than simply nerfing it until it never gets used or making it structure-only.
"O Remove the alien spawn system." Sounds great. It was a cool idea but with the lowered egg regen and drastic increase of egg cost from shifts it doesn’t work anymore. It’s a little unfair when marines can build 7 ip’s around a single CS.
Okay, guys. I'm kind of tired to play current NS2 and I don't like coming changes. I'll balance NS2 myself. I've had a long meditation over all aspects of the game. It's going to be a good 'ol NS2.
I don't blame UWE. Balancing is complicated, especially, when you have several tasks to do and opposite opinions coming from both sides.
But my hands are free, I feel the game and read a lot of your ideas, guys. Most changes are already done. Just a day or two to finish it.
Why not come up with a decent counter for the nano-shield.
Bile bombs turns it off, or poison bite ignores nano shield entirely. Whatever you can come up with. Would be more interesting than simply nerfing it until it never gets used or making it structure-only.
I see what you're getting at, but I think that bringing in a counter like those examples won't work very well. Since the marine commander can just select anyone anywhere on the map and instantly give them nanoshield, it's almost impossible to counter it in time unless there just happens to be a gorge/lerk in that very room.
For instance, aliens have the enzyme ability. You could consider that to be the counter to nanoshield, only it's not, because it's limited by drifter travel time and micromanagement while the nanoshield is instant. It's useful though, just not something you can use reliably to counter the nanoshield, because of the difference in practicality.
To have a decent counter for nanoshield, you'll need it to be as fast and easy to activate as nanoshield itself.
goodness gracious - a nano-shielded marine cannot die to a constantly swiping Fade if he is facing an armory. it's either overpowered and obnoxious or underpowered and underutilized, I don't personally see a middle ground with an ability like that. at best it simply wins an engagement for res, at worst it gives aliens an unfavorable trade. it needs to be changed fundamentally or else it's just another shiny feature that adds nothing to gameplay while subtracting a lot.
I would prefer structures only to give some consistent gameplay to the RTS aspect of the game and balance it around that, so that an advantage can be gained and maintained resource wise. the current system is merely clicking a button on a shotgun marine and making it so that no Fades are allowed to attack him. there's no brain aspect to maintaining the cooldown either as it's shared by players and structures, just no synergy with anything and it doesn't seem to fit NS2 gameplay at all.
edit: I guess it really wouldn't take much thought in the decisionmaking process of nanoshielding an RT that's being chewed on either, it really just goes to show what a boring mechanic it is in the first place.
Swiping a Marine more than 6+ times (or even more potentially) would seem like an absurd amount of work no?
a skulk would normally be there to support so not really
He can survive both. Easily.. not to mention instantly peace the skulk if he's decent with the sg.. and say the Marine has a partner?
This is all besides the point anyways. The ability is fundamentally an issue. Not just random situations that you can come up with from whatever experiences you've had.
The facts are that if the Marine Commander chooses to do so.. he can make the Marine invincible for a short period against nothing short of an Onos holding M1 on the Marine since the medpacks have a cooldown.
Why not come up with a decent counter for the nano-shield.
Bile bombs turns it off, or poison bite ignores nano shield entirely. Whatever you can come up with. Would be more interesting than simply nerfing it until it never gets used or making it structure-only.
I see what you're getting at, but I think that bringing in a counter like those examples won't work very well. Since the marine commander can just select anyone anywhere on the map and instantly give them nanoshield, it's almost impossible to counter it in time unless there just happens to be a gorge/lerk in that very room.
For instance, aliens have the enzyme ability. You could consider that to be the counter to nanoshield, only it's not, because it's limited by drifter travel time and micromanagement while the nanoshield is instant. It's useful though, just not something you can use reliably to counter the nanoshield, because of the difference in practicality.
To have a decent counter for nanoshield, you'll need it to be as fast and easy to activate as nanoshield itself.
You do have a point, but I feel that counters shouldn't be readily available at all times, because it would make the original ability moot. I'm imagining a Alien Khamm "Nope" button for the Nanoshield from your point of view.
In almost every other game with 'counters' are usually situational and not always readily available. Starcraft is a prime example of this, you have to actively scout and plan out your counter units in advance.
In this same vein, think the trick may be to "future-proof" important encounters with a Gorge/Lerk. Like you said, Nano-Shield can come at any time, which is admittedly lame. Right now there is no way to defend against it in encounters that matter. Gorge Bilebomb and Lerk poison is better than nothing, and odds are if those counters are present, the Alien team will be sure to include those units in extremely important situations. (Examples: A Gorge near hive to turn off Nanoshields on pushing marines, a Lerk following a group of skulks attacking a lone marine building a Phaste Gate). Nice thing about this counter is that it still won't make Nanoshield totally useless, only in some situations.
(Or we can follow the Enzyme idea and change it so that Nano-shield is given out by MACs).
We have to remember Nano-shield has two costs. Time (cooldown) and Res.
The problem scenario Locklear outlines isn't that hard to achieve, Marine Comm is buying a team or fade kill for a very small res cost. If nano-shield functioned the same but cost ~15 tres to use would it work?
I can also see tres being part of the issue. We all agree nano can be anywhere at anytime which is part of its imbalance, it can always be exactly where it needs to be instantly. Could marines buy a nano-shield at the armory and activate it themselves, alleviating the insta-deploy concern? This may also scale better against improved lifeforms.
Edit: I don't think hard comm deployed instant counters are a good idea. Then we're just playing comm-chicken. Structural counters that have to be pre-deployed are more viable (observatory vs cloaking, shade ink vs scan, new thing vs assist menu?)
How about making Nanoshield gradually restore armor over time without granting any other form of damage reduction. This would allow the commander to fully resupply a Marine in enemy territory. The slow armor restoration would also provide some boost in combat effectiveness but not to the extent of current Nano. Also, it could be countered by Bile.
Why not come up with a decent counter for the nano-shield.
Bile bombs turns it off, or poison bite ignores nano shield entirely. Whatever you can come up with. Would be more interesting than simply nerfing it until it never gets used or making it structure-only.
By the gods.. lets NOT make bilebomb be its counter. At the moment many, including me, use nanoshield as the counter to bilebomb. Its the one thing keeping your power node alive in pugs for them to react.
There are no game breaking tactics marines are using that exploit nanoshield in such a way that it demands a nerf right this very second. That's the bottom line here.
The times I've seen a nano marine in competitive play take on an entire team beg to differ.
Nano is a second tech point ability for marines, and it is easily countered by vortex. (Yes I know vortex is third hive, but aliens almost always have second hive up before second CC, if nano is an issue perhaps they should be pushing the third up) Aliens have their own 'nano' with heal wave. (yes crags are stationary, but this is an asymmetric game)
You mention fades and shotgun marines, but shotguns are a counter to fades. If fades are having trouble killing shotgun marines then it is working as intended. Or are marines not supposed to have ANY counters to aliens? Nano is a SOFT counter, it does not make anyone invulnerable to anything. Furthermore, marine win rates in competitive games are the same as in public games. I hardly see this as 'game breaking'.
You and I both know that competitive commanders are far more likely to use nano in more effective methods, which is why you feel it is overpowered. However, here's the problem with addressing it *now*. Let's say that fixing nano positively alters alien/marine balance in competitive games. In this case you're effectively removing the ability from public games as it will never get used anymore since it is so weak. In other words you're taking a game ability and only making it relative to competitive games.
When I made the suggestion about having an 'advanced mode' in the game, competitive players railed against it saying it would split the community by nature of making 'two different games'. Well this change to nano may as well be the first step to making an advanced mode, since it is making nano an ability that is only of use to competitive players.
In principle I actually don't object to changes like this, but I would rather this kind of change only be made in competitive games so that people can still use current incarnation of nano on pubs. Otherwise, if nano has to be nerfed this hard, just remove it from the game. Seriously. It wouldn't be the first time an ability has been removed, so if it is that big a deal then just remove it. If this change is left in, then this will be the first step to creating a 'mode' where certain game abilities are only used in competitive games. Is that what you want? Since that's what you'll end up getting.
However, and my point still stands, this isn't doing public game balance any favours. Sooner or later we're gonna have to 'get around' to balancing the rest of NS2. Yuno, that game that 99% of players play on public servers? I'm hoping for sooner, because if it is much later there aren't gonna be that many people left playing.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
I see huge amounts of arguing over all this, but nowhere has anyone said they've ACTUALLY PLAYED IT.
Are any servers even running this? I couldn't find any, and before I give an uninformed ridiculous opinion that would likely be worthy of a flame, I would like to actually try it out.
Comments
* most people dislike waiting even longer in respawn queue. Let alone that marines do not need nerfs.
* Nanoshield costs res. its a good res to result for marines to use, especially on power nodes and marines. I can somewhat understand if they up cost or cooldown, but not duration. The rescost to result simply becomes not worth it.
Marines already have enought stuff which is not worth it. Lets not add even more to that list.
* more expensive armslab ups. Marines do not need more nerfs at this moment. If you want to slow marine power lateron, increase the higher upgrades on the armslab, instead of them all?
* Crags take res to build. I do not see a real reason to cap at 2 instead of 3. Radius decrease is easily countered by comms with placement, so I guess that could work well.
* having the aliens on a different spawn system, may make it harder to balance & learn but makes them more unique. Asymetrical has always been a strong part of NS, and I hate to see more of it go.
Let's be clear here, if you have ever balanced a game you'll know that there is no such thing as a single patch which fixes everything and we all get to go home and the job is done. It never happens. Fixing balance issues is kinda like tipping over a vending machine - you need to rock it a few times before it will start to tip over.
If we play a game of make-believe here, let's imagine this patch we're bickering about didn't exist. Instead in its place is a patch that everyone agrees will likely bring the alien win rate to 75%. Now, let's also imagine that these balance changes are still necessary. Do you make these balance changes *NOW*, or do you say "OK, let's keep these balance changes on the back burner and release them when things are a bit more balanced."...?
So again, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any particular balance changes made. What I am saying is *if* such alien friendly balance changes need to be made, that they either be put off until balance improves, or they be coupled with other marine balance buffs that will negate the impact of the alien balance changes.
For example, the changes to nanoshield, while perhaps justifiable, don't necessarily have to be done NOW. There are no game breaking tactics marines are using that exploit nanoshield in such a way that it demands a nerf right this very second. That's the bottom line here.
I think the deciding factor will be how it interacts with the egg spawning system. If the egg spawn rate is much higher than the respawn rate the hive will quickly wind up with a glut of eggs, making an egglock quite difficult. But if the egg spawn rate is lower than the respawn rate, all the marines have to do is kill aliens at rate higher than 1 per 7 secs and the aliens will egglock themselves.
Either way, as the aliens get more hives there will be more eggs left in each hive (as the per hive respawn rate goes from 1 every 7 seconds, to 1 every 14 seconds, then 1 every 21 seconds and so on).
The whole thing leaves me wondering what the cap on eggs per hive is.
Meh, poor show of character on my part.
This should place more emphasis on good skulk play (hopefully fewer alien wins where all the aliens have lower than 1:1 KDR).
Egglock concerns are certainly warranted. But it puts alien base frailty about on par with power-nodes v bile-bomb. However, that situation is far from ideal and probably shouldn't be mirrored on the alien team. Testing should show more.
The times I've seen a nano marine in competitive play take on an entire team beg to differ.
By who's rulebook does it say they are "supposed to".
?
The idea of the commander buffing a player is cool, but the chosen buff and the mechanics behind it are just terrible.
Heaven forbid aliens will have to work for something for once
Swiping a Marine more than 6+ times (or even more potentially) would seem like an absurd amount of work no?
Bile bombs turns it off, or poison bite ignores nano shield entirely. Whatever you can come up with. Would be more interesting than simply nerfing it until it never gets used or making it structure-only.
a skulk would normally be there to support so not really
I don't blame UWE. Balancing is complicated, especially, when you have several tasks to do and opposite opinions coming from both sides.
But my hands are free, I feel the game and read a lot of your ideas, guys. Most changes are already done. Just a day or two to finish it.
I see what you're getting at, but I think that bringing in a counter like those examples won't work very well. Since the marine commander can just select anyone anywhere on the map and instantly give them nanoshield, it's almost impossible to counter it in time unless there just happens to be a gorge/lerk in that very room.
For instance, aliens have the enzyme ability. You could consider that to be the counter to nanoshield, only it's not, because it's limited by drifter travel time and micromanagement while the nanoshield is instant. It's useful though, just not something you can use reliably to counter the nanoshield, because of the difference in practicality.
To have a decent counter for nanoshield, you'll need it to be as fast and easy to activate as nanoshield itself.
I would prefer structures only to give some consistent gameplay to the RTS aspect of the game and balance it around that, so that an advantage can be gained and maintained resource wise. the current system is merely clicking a button on a shotgun marine and making it so that no Fades are allowed to attack him. there's no brain aspect to maintaining the cooldown either as it's shared by players and structures, just no synergy with anything and it doesn't seem to fit NS2 gameplay at all.
edit: I guess it really wouldn't take much thought in the decisionmaking process of nanoshielding an RT that's being chewed on either, it really just goes to show what a boring mechanic it is in the first place.
He can survive both. Easily.. not to mention instantly peace the skulk if he's decent with the sg.. and say the Marine has a partner?
This is all besides the point anyways. The ability is fundamentally an issue. Not just random situations that you can come up with from whatever experiences you've had.
The facts are that if the Marine Commander chooses to do so.. he can make the Marine invincible for a short period against nothing short of an Onos holding M1 on the Marine since the medpacks have a cooldown.
You do have a point, but I feel that counters shouldn't be readily available at all times, because it would make the original ability moot. I'm imagining a Alien Khamm "Nope" button for the Nanoshield from your point of view.
In almost every other game with 'counters' are usually situational and not always readily available. Starcraft is a prime example of this, you have to actively scout and plan out your counter units in advance.
In this same vein, think the trick may be to "future-proof" important encounters with a Gorge/Lerk. Like you said, Nano-Shield can come at any time, which is admittedly lame. Right now there is no way to defend against it in encounters that matter. Gorge Bilebomb and Lerk poison is better than nothing, and odds are if those counters are present, the Alien team will be sure to include those units in extremely important situations. (Examples: A Gorge near hive to turn off Nanoshields on pushing marines, a Lerk following a group of skulks attacking a lone marine building a Phaste Gate). Nice thing about this counter is that it still won't make Nanoshield totally useless, only in some situations.
(Or we can follow the Enzyme idea and change it so that Nano-shield is given out by MACs).
The problem scenario Locklear outlines isn't that hard to achieve, Marine Comm is buying a team or fade kill for a very small res cost. If nano-shield functioned the same but cost ~15 tres to use would it work?
I can also see tres being part of the issue. We all agree nano can be anywhere at anytime which is part of its imbalance, it can always be exactly where it needs to be instantly. Could marines buy a nano-shield at the armory and activate it themselves, alleviating the insta-deploy concern? This may also scale better against improved lifeforms.
Edit: I don't think hard comm deployed instant counters are a good idea. Then we're just playing comm-chicken. Structural counters that have to be pre-deployed are more viable (observatory vs cloaking, shade ink vs scan, new thing vs assist menu?)
It would
a) encourage the use of drifters
b) give Enzyme a reason to exist
c) balance Nano Shield
Three birds with one stone.
By the gods.. lets NOT make bilebomb be its counter. At the moment many, including me, use nanoshield as the counter to bilebomb. Its the one thing keeping your power node alive in pugs for them to react.
Increased attack speed for a few seconds isn't enough incentive?
You mention fades and shotgun marines, but shotguns are a counter to fades. If fades are having trouble killing shotgun marines then it is working as intended. Or are marines not supposed to have ANY counters to aliens? Nano is a SOFT counter, it does not make anyone invulnerable to anything. Furthermore, marine win rates in competitive games are the same as in public games. I hardly see this as 'game breaking'.
You and I both know that competitive commanders are far more likely to use nano in more effective methods, which is why you feel it is overpowered. However, here's the problem with addressing it *now*. Let's say that fixing nano positively alters alien/marine balance in competitive games. In this case you're effectively removing the ability from public games as it will never get used anymore since it is so weak. In other words you're taking a game ability and only making it relative to competitive games.
When I made the suggestion about having an 'advanced mode' in the game, competitive players railed against it saying it would split the community by nature of making 'two different games'. Well this change to nano may as well be the first step to making an advanced mode, since it is making nano an ability that is only of use to competitive players.
In principle I actually don't object to changes like this, but I would rather this kind of change only be made in competitive games so that people can still use current incarnation of nano on pubs. Otherwise, if nano has to be nerfed this hard, just remove it from the game. Seriously. It wouldn't be the first time an ability has been removed, so if it is that big a deal then just remove it. If this change is left in, then this will be the first step to creating a 'mode' where certain game abilities are only used in competitive games. Is that what you want? Since that's what you'll end up getting.
However, and my point still stands, this isn't doing public game balance any favours. Sooner or later we're gonna have to 'get around' to balancing the rest of NS2. Yuno, that game that 99% of players play on public servers? I'm hoping for sooner, because if it is much later there aren't gonna be that many people left playing.
Are any servers even running this? I couldn't find any, and before I give an uninformed ridiculous opinion that would likely be worthy of a flame, I would like to actually try it out.