Purely from a game design standpoint I've never liked nanoshield on marines. It's just too obnoxious IMO. The marine comm already has medspam - invincibility on demand is going too far, regardless of its cost or cooldown. I would much prefer if it was purely for structures and balanced accordingly.
Nanoshield stops 50% incoming damage -> should also stop 50% of incoming heal -> Medpacks need to be spammed faster and cost more res to fully heal a nanoshielded marine. And maybe make Nanoshield depend on having an online Power Node in that room for whatever reason (nanites can't do their work good enough without having a link to the power grid).
Nanoshield stops 50% incoming damage -> should also stop 50% of incoming heal -> Medpacks need to be spammed faster and cost more res to fully heal a nanoshielded marine. And maybe make Nanoshield depend on having an online Power Node in that room for whatever reason (nanites can't do their work good enough without having a link to the power grid).
See, these are the kinds of things you can do to nanoshield to tweak it without nerfing it into the ground. Those are all great suggestions CrushaK, and they are also very intuitive.
As you noted, Nano Shield is *not* invincibility. It's 50% reduction on incoming damage. It's the aliens that have invincibility with vortex. That's way more powerful than nanoshield since the fade can reduce the damage from a marine to ZERO.
Personally I am fine with making medpacks only heal for 50% on a nanoshielded marine. I also think having an active power node is an interesting twist, but the problem with that is that not all rooms have power nodes to start. It would be a bit 'meh' to make marines need to build nodes in unused rooms just for that sake. (I'm not a fan of the power node mechanic at all.) What about if nanoshield doesn't work on marines standing on infestation? That's easier to predict, and makes nanoshield more a defensive tool than an offensive tool.
Right now nanoshield is the one thing that is keeping marine games alive when someone goes after a power node. If we have to have these "I win" buttons in the game, then nanoshield shouldn't be nerfed - at least not on structures.
Edit: Another possible consideration would be leaving nanoshield as is and reducing marine OUTgoing damage by 50% to match the reduction in incoming damage.
Leave Nano Shield as it is and have it be countered by Enzyme.
It would
a) encourage the use of drifters
b) give Enzyme a reason to exist
c) balance Nano Shield
Three birds with one stone.
In theory enzyme is already the counter. But in practice it doesn't show, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
Nano is a second tech point ability for marines, and it is easily countered by vortex. (Yes I know vortex is third hive, but aliens almost always have second hive up before second CC, if nano is an issue perhaps they should be pushing the third up) Aliens have their own 'nano' with heal wave. (yes crags are stationary, but this is an asymmetric game)
you have to be kidding me. is it too much to ask that you actually play the game before participating in theorycrafting discussions?
However, and my point still stands, this isn't doing public game balance any favours. Sooner or later we're gonna have to 'get around' to balancing the rest of NS2. Yuno, that game that 99% of players play on public servers? I'm hoping for sooner, because if it is much later there aren't gonna be that many people left playing.
Furthermore, marine win rates in competitive games are the same as in public games.
not only does this imply that there is not a separate "balance metric" by which competitive games are played as you seem to believe there is, your obsession with winrate makes you completely unable to comprehend this discussion at its basic level.
it has nothing to do with balance, it's removing BROKEN MECHANICS, nano is not a soft counter you CANNOT DIE IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN ARMORY TO ANYTHING EXCEPT AN ONOS, and you believe that belongs ??????
imagine the marine wall-walking, for example (West Skylights vent, Crevice rock climbing). regardless of how it affects marine winrate, that is something that needs to go, is that not obvious? not just from a balance perspective, cosmetically it's absurd.
by your logic, you would have vouched for keeping the 6 minute Onos in because the winrate was an even split at the time of release. you are wasting time until you understand this: winrate has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay merit of a feature. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to grasp. just look back to the beta where that thought process literally ruined the game for months at a time, and you want more of the same. great!
As you noted, Nano Shield is *not* invincibility. It's 50% reduction on incoming damage. It's the aliens that have invincibility with vortex. That's way more powerful than nanoshield since the fade can reduce the damage from a marine to ZERO.
, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
This is why I've been recommending requiring a Mac in line of sight to cast nano shield. Works for lore, we'd see it far less frequently, and could easily prevent/disable it by killing the weak Mac. Now there's way less need to nerf it into oblivion.
Guys, my glorious balance mod is almost complete. v0.1, I mean. Will be released tomorrow.
I reworked sentries. They don't require batteries anymore, deal slightly more damage, react faster and have fov360. 2 per room and higher price. Marines will be able to actually push aliens.
You will see what a person with low coding skills can do in two days.
, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
This is why I've been recommending requiring a Mac in line of sight to cast nano shield. Works for lore, we'd see it far less frequently, and could easily prevent/disable it by killing the weak Mac. Now there's way less need to nerf it into oblivion.
While it makes sense from a lore point of view.. a mac survives bilebomb just as much as a power node, as in it does not.
In most pugs they are so slow in reacting to a power node rush, nanoshield is the only hthing keeping us in the game at that point.
Furthermore, marine win rates in competitive games are the same as in public games.
not only does this imply that there is not a separate "balance metric" by which competitive games are played as you seem to believe there is, your obsession with winrate ... it has nothing to do with balance
The developers disagree with you.
it's removing BROKEN MECHANICS
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I don't share that point of view, and neither do many others in this thread.
nano is not a soft counter you CANNOT DIE IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN ARMORY TO ANYTHING EXCEPT AN ONOS, and you believe that belongs
Yes. If you are looking at an armory you are NOT firing. That's the tradeoff. This was part of Charlie's high level design document. Furthermore, not only does this have a COST (which is another tradeoff) it also has a limited duration and a cooldown. If the marine could heal from an armory *AND* do damage, then you have a point. That's not the case.
An Onos can't die if he's being healed by a few crags and healwave either - AND he can still do damage. You believe that belongs?
imagine the marine wall-walking, for example (West Skylights vent
The mapper confirmed that the panel in skylights is intended to allow marines to enter the vent.
Crevice rock climbing
I agree here, but this is more complicated. There are a number of places like this, and it's a game mechanic issue as well as a map issue. However, that's far off topic. It's an issue they are aware of, but mappers could work around it if they felt it was a big deal.
by your logic, you would have vouched for keeping the 6 minute Onos in because the winrate was an even split at the time of release.
Yes I would, *until* the change to the Onos could be made with another change that offsets that change. Point and counterpoint. No developer in his right mind would make a change that he KNOWS will unbalance the game 'just because' it needs it. It's like a house of cards. You don't pull out one without knowing how that will affect the rest.
winrate has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay merit of a feature.
Winrates matter. The developers have repeatedly said that winrates matter. While that may annoy you to no end, that won't change the developers position. This is one of the reasons they gather so many statistics so they can figure out where they can best tweak the game to address winrates.
You can't balance a game in a vacuum. You can't pick out one thing, say "I'm going to balance this" without taking into account the impact that change will have on everything else in the game and the overall game balance itself. This is why developers have people in my department go through their changes to find the game impacts they may not have considered. I don't care how 'justified' an individual change is, if that change takes balance in the WRONG DIRECTION then it doesn't pass QA and the change to the game does not get made. Period.
Nanoshield is not a broken mechanic. It's a mechanic that has a limited effect, it has a cost, and it has a cooldown. If it was a broken mechanic then the only way to fix it would be to remove it from the game.
Reducing the duration and increasing the cooldown *STILL* means that hypothetical marine will *STILL* not be able to be killed while facing an armory, except it will only last 4 seconds instead of 8. If the mechanic is broken then it needs to be removed, not changed in duration. Changing the duration doesn't change the mechanic one bit. So your example doesn't support your position one bit.
Either nanoshield is broken or it is not. If it is broken then it needs to be removed and completely reworked. I don't feel it is a broken mechanic, and it seems the developers don't either or they would have removed it already.
Im going to say that you actually have no clue what the developers thoughts are regarding these changes, and any forthcoming changes regarding balance. If you thought that these changes were proposed, coded and implemented by a dev, well I'm sorry to say but your wrong. The only thing a dev had to do with this changes was uploading them to steamworkshop. Now thats not to say that a dev doesnt agree or disagree with certain choices or mechanics, more that your just theorycrafting way to much by the choice of the change here. Fixing broken mechanics IMO takes priority over perfectly balancing the game, and considering nanoshields impact on the game currently it wont make a 1% difference in winrates.
Metal ManJoin Date: 2011-11-13Member: 132717Members
What if nano shield nullifies a single hit on a marine? It is preemptively cast and not spammable. May or may not be detectable by aliens and lasts 30 seconds to a minute. Things like parasite (a use for it!) and spores will deactivate it. And possibly make it an expensive upgrade to make it last 3 hits at level 3.
For structures it would work as before, lasting an entire duration and reducing damage. If upgradeable, duration increases.
Adjust costs and timers accordingly. May be easier said than done. And I'm not sure if exos would be considered marines or structures for its use. Probably marines.
Leave Nano Shield as it is and have it be countered by Enzyme.
It would
a) encourage the use of drifters
b) give Enzyme a reason to exist
c) balance Nano Shield
Three birds with one stone.
In theory enzyme is already the counter. But in practice it doesn't show, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
errr... Doesn't enzyme work AoE? I've never had a problem getting my enzyme working how I assume it was intended...
What I don't get is why we're discussing these new changes in a thread about the old balance mod. It's very confusing.
Leave Nano Shield as it is and have it be countered by Enzyme.
It would
a) encourage the use of drifters
b) give Enzyme a reason to exist
c) balance Nano Shield
Three birds with one stone.
In theory enzyme is already the counter. But in practice it doesn't show, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
errr... Doesn't enzyme work AoE? I've never had a problem getting my enzyme working how I assume it was intended...
What I don't get is why we're discussing these new changes in a thread about the old balance mod. It's very confusing.
You misunderstand. I wasn't implying enzyme isn't working like it should. I was just pointing out that it only takes a fraction of a second to provide a marine with nanoshield while it takes some drifter micromanagement and a travel time delay to provide an alien with enzyme. Which is why enzyme is not a very effective counter to nanoshield.
What if nano shield nullifies a single hit on a marine? It is preemptively cast and not spammable. May or may not be detectable by aliens and lasts 30 seconds to a minute. Things like parasite (a use for it!) and spores will deactivate it. And possibly make it an expensive upgrade to make it last 3 hits at level 3.
For structures it would work as before, lasting an entire duration and reducing damage. If upgradeable, duration increases.
Adjust costs and timers accordingly. May be easier said than done. And I'm not sure if exos would be considered marines or structures for its use. Probably marines.
What if Nano lasted 15 sec and absorbed 100% damage from 1 hit every 3 seconds? this way it would be useful but against 2 skulks, it would no longer negate one of them.
I like the part of this thread where Savant systematically argues with players 20x better than while simultaneously not comprehending the base concepts they are describing. Jesus.
Nanoshield is useless on terrible marines, and disgustingly overpowered on good marines. It's a bad mechanic in its current form, and arguing in support of it because of marine win rates (when changing it wouldn't have any effect on win rates whatsoever) is just absurd. As much fun as I have getting a nanoshield and then proceeding to mow through 8-9 skulks in the span of 15 seconds in pubs, I'm pretty sure the fact I'm able to do that on any level is broken as crap.
why is the drifter not in the area you are attacking its there for scouting
You're missing the point. The khammander can't continuously move drifters around for every single alien in every single room it enters. While the commander can instantly put nanoshield on any marine anywhere on the map.
Comments
As you noted, Nano Shield is *not* invincibility. It's 50% reduction on incoming damage. It's the aliens that have invincibility with vortex. That's way more powerful than nanoshield since the fade can reduce the damage from a marine to ZERO.
Personally I am fine with making medpacks only heal for 50% on a nanoshielded marine. I also think having an active power node is an interesting twist, but the problem with that is that not all rooms have power nodes to start. It would be a bit 'meh' to make marines need to build nodes in unused rooms just for that sake. (I'm not a fan of the power node mechanic at all.) What about if nanoshield doesn't work on marines standing on infestation? That's easier to predict, and makes nanoshield more a defensive tool than an offensive tool.
Right now nanoshield is the one thing that is keeping marine games alive when someone goes after a power node. If we have to have these "I win" buttons in the game, then nanoshield shouldn't be nerfed - at least not on structures.
Edit: Another possible consideration would be leaving nanoshield as is and reducing marine OUTgoing damage by 50% to match the reduction in incoming damage.
In theory enzyme is already the counter. But in practice it doesn't show, because it's less easy to put enzyme on an alien than it is to put a nanoshield on a marine.
not only does this imply that there is not a separate "balance metric" by which competitive games are played as you seem to believe there is, your obsession with winrate makes you completely unable to comprehend this discussion at its basic level.
it has nothing to do with balance, it's removing BROKEN MECHANICS, nano is not a soft counter you CANNOT DIE IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT AN ARMORY TO ANYTHING EXCEPT AN ONOS, and you believe that belongs ??????
imagine the marine wall-walking, for example (West Skylights vent, Crevice rock climbing). regardless of how it affects marine winrate, that is something that needs to go, is that not obvious? not just from a balance perspective, cosmetically it's absurd.
by your logic, you would have vouched for keeping the 6 minute Onos in because the winrate was an even split at the time of release. you are wasting time until you understand this: winrate has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay merit of a feature. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to grasp. just look back to the beta where that thought process literally ruined the game for months at a time, and you want more of the same. great!
You cannot possibly be serious.
I reworked sentries. They don't require batteries anymore, deal slightly more damage, react faster and have fov360. 2 per room and higher price. Marines will be able to actually push aliens.
You will see what a person with low coding skills can do in two days.
While it makes sense from a lore point of view.. a mac survives bilebomb just as much as a power node, as in it does not.
In most pugs they are so slow in reacting to a power node rush, nanoshield is the only hthing keeping us in the game at that point.
b) drifters dont last long either once enzyme is used.
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I don't share that point of view, and neither do many others in this thread.
Yes. If you are looking at an armory you are NOT firing. That's the tradeoff. This was part of Charlie's high level design document. Furthermore, not only does this have a COST (which is another tradeoff) it also has a limited duration and a cooldown. If the marine could heal from an armory *AND* do damage, then you have a point. That's not the case.
An Onos can't die if he's being healed by a few crags and healwave either - AND he can still do damage. You believe that belongs?
The mapper confirmed that the panel in skylights is intended to allow marines to enter the vent.
I agree here, but this is more complicated. There are a number of places like this, and it's a game mechanic issue as well as a map issue. However, that's far off topic. It's an issue they are aware of, but mappers could work around it if they felt it was a big deal.
Yes I would, *until* the change to the Onos could be made with another change that offsets that change. Point and counterpoint. No developer in his right mind would make a change that he KNOWS will unbalance the game 'just because' it needs it. It's like a house of cards. You don't pull out one without knowing how that will affect the rest.
Winrates matter. The developers have repeatedly said that winrates matter. While that may annoy you to no end, that won't change the developers position. This is one of the reasons they gather so many statistics so they can figure out where they can best tweak the game to address winrates.
You can't balance a game in a vacuum. You can't pick out one thing, say "I'm going to balance this" without taking into account the impact that change will have on everything else in the game and the overall game balance itself. This is why developers have people in my department go through their changes to find the game impacts they may not have considered. I don't care how 'justified' an individual change is, if that change takes balance in the WRONG DIRECTION then it doesn't pass QA and the change to the game does not get made. Period.
Nanoshield is not a broken mechanic. It's a mechanic that has a limited effect, it has a cost, and it has a cooldown. If it was a broken mechanic then the only way to fix it would be to remove it from the game.
Reducing the duration and increasing the cooldown *STILL* means that hypothetical marine will *STILL* not be able to be killed while facing an armory, except it will only last 4 seconds instead of 8. If the mechanic is broken then it needs to be removed, not changed in duration. Changing the duration doesn't change the mechanic one bit. So your example doesn't support your position one bit.
Either nanoshield is broken or it is not. If it is broken then it needs to be removed and completely reworked. I don't feel it is a broken mechanic, and it seems the developers don't either or they would have removed it already.
Additional mobility for mobile aliens and aim-depending railguns against mobile aliens? Weak enough that it takes 4 dual charges to kill an ohnoes.
It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's a flying turd!
For structures it would work as before, lasting an entire duration and reducing damage. If upgradeable, duration increases.
Adjust costs and timers accordingly. May be easier said than done. And I'm not sure if exos would be considered marines or structures for its use. Probably marines.
errr... Doesn't enzyme work AoE? I've never had a problem getting my enzyme working how I assume it was intended...
What I don't get is why we're discussing these new changes in a thread about the old balance mod. It's very confusing.
You misunderstand. I wasn't implying enzyme isn't working like it should. I was just pointing out that it only takes a fraction of a second to provide a marine with nanoshield while it takes some drifter micromanagement and a travel time delay to provide an alien with enzyme. Which is why enzyme is not a very effective counter to nanoshield.
What if Nano lasted 15 sec and absorbed 100% damage from 1 hit every 3 seconds? this way it would be useful but against 2 skulks, it would no longer negate one of them.
Heal a hole in his stomack first and you won't need to pull his cheeks.
AHAHAHAH.
It's not the only one feature. You're gonna enjoy it.
Nanoshield is useless on terrible marines, and disgustingly overpowered on good marines. It's a bad mechanic in its current form, and arguing in support of it because of marine win rates (when changing it wouldn't have any effect on win rates whatsoever) is just absurd. As much fun as I have getting a nanoshield and then proceeding to mow through 8-9 skulks in the span of 15 seconds in pubs, I'm pretty sure the fact I'm able to do that on any level is broken as crap.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=127813673
You're missing the point. The khammander can't continuously move drifters around for every single alien in every single room it enters. While the commander can instantly put nanoshield on any marine anywhere on the map.