<!--quoteo(post=2065021:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:25 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 22 2013, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think anyone who intentionally edits anything to give themselves an edge that vanilla players (Default installation users) do not have is cheating in spirit, if not 'according to the rules.'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about people with computers that aren't "stock". Macro enabled keyboards, high DPI mice, High-end GPUs, Very High speed internet connections, SSDs? This list can go on and on, each item adding something to the game experience that is above and beyond a "stock" PC; and can give you an advantage over another player.
Advantages in a game, or anything else for that matter, stem from knowledge. No one is born with knowledge. Everyone has to learn. So, once you learn about some feature that you can use to your advantage you cannot use it until everyone knows about it? Even if it is a stock feature?
Am I a cheater because I bind j1 to f1 because this is not part of the stock game?
Am I a cheater because I know the better hiding places for skulks to ambush from and a new player hasn't learned about them yet? Do I have to forgo shooting into corners and over doors in anticipation of there being a skulk there simply because a vanilla player might not know about it?
Knowledge is power. Using all the tools legitimately available to you is not cheating. If a new player does not know that they can evolve, does that mean no one can evolve? No, they need to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=2065039:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:41 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 22 2013, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Knowledge is power. Using all the tools legitimately available to you is not cheating. If a new player does not know that they can evolve, does that mean no one can evolve? No, they need to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When those tools reach outside of the game environment and the provided, relevant settings, to customizable and modifiable UI settings... Yes, it's cheating.
When it pertains to in-game, provided-as-engine knowledge regarding features and strategies? No, it's not.
Regarding hardware; I'll agree that some folks have an advantage due to hardware, this is a given. It's just one of those realities enforced by the nature of the beast. Some performance will be better than others.
As i said before, it's the spirit in which the modification is pursued. People download cheat-like alien vision and stuff off of the workshop from what I understand not because "It's pretty and I like it" or "Because i have knowledge"; it's because they seek a flat advantage over everyone else, and this attitude is not justified by "Other people can do it too." The same argument can be used with aimbots. "Not my fault they aren't using aimbots, they could if they were smart enough." That's a fool's errant argument on a pulpit of idealism, and doesn't hold true to any pragmatic extent.
Cheating is wrong. It is the attitude through which it is pursued that is the core of the problem; and even minor advantages like custom-installed crosshairs and customized vision modes are, typically, cheating. It's just not something the community wants to admit.
I think a very equitable solution is just to have UWE step in and state whether or not such 'mods' are in fact cheating by their definition (The truest possible) of their intended product, and then provide in-game setting support for things they find valid. e.g; crosshairs, gorge heart healspray, funny vision modes, etc.
Elsewise, you're giving a blanket cover-all to the 'IM NOT CHEATING EVERYONE CAN DOWNLOAD IT' folks, who are clearly just trying to justify their ill-minded attempts to cheat in a game of all things.
<!--quoteo(post=2065021:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:25 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 22 2013, 02:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
... Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating. ...
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
addressing the first point, personally, i run with absolutely bare minimum settings, and i think it actually improves my performance beyond a simple bump in frame-rate. i think bloom and infestation would actually distract me even if there were no performance hit. regardless, moot point, right now i'm running at some ungodly low resolution to bump my fps to a low 40 range.
the second point, i'm not going to argue, i've got a single white dot, and i consider the default crosshair a deliberate debuff to team marine.
A big part of the discussion that is missing here is how we identify a "cheat". A lot of people are giving specific examples, such as whether they believe crosshairs, model alterations, etc. to be instances of cheating.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Nature of Cheating <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> A common theme I believe these all reduce to is what each person believes contributes to the "skill" of the game. While the definition of what "skill checks" are in the game vary from person to person, it seems everyone agrees that anything that alters the default behavior of what they consider "skill" and how it interacts with these "skill check" game mechanics.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What is a "Cheat"? <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> For instance, some individuals in this thread have voiced that they believe alternate crosshairs are considered cheats, while other community members have noted that a vast majority of the player population disagrees. What is truly being argued over here is a players definition of skill and how that skill interacts with the crosshair. Someone who believes that alternate crosshairs are cheating most likely believe that the crosshair (even if it is incredibly inefficient at its task of assisting in aiming) and ability to cope/use this crosshair is a "skill check" in the game. People who alter their crosshairs and DONT believe it to be a cheat will probably agree with the seniment that the "skill check" is the action of having to aim, and that trying to cope with the crosshair isn't a "skill check" just poor design.
Model alterations can also be analyzed under this relationship to determine whether you, or someone else may consider it a cheat. For instance, a modification that alters the skulk model so instead of its current texture it has a red black evil looking texture will probably not be considered cheating, if it doesn't alter any of the relationships of a players skill and how it interacts with "skill checks" (E.G. skulk visibility in the dark, skulk size, skulk visibility in light, etc.). However a skulk model that makes skulks fluorescence regardless of lighting conditions may GREATLY alter skill and how it interacts with "skill checks", depending on what that player considered to be skill and "skill checks".
For a more inflammatory example lets analyze scripts. The hypothetical pistol script is just an input macro that automates the inputs for you. It is possible that the script does it FAR faster than possible for any human BUT is still COMPLETELY done without alteration to the games code. Someone who believes this script not to be a cheat will probably agree with the idea that clicking speed is not/should not be a "skill check" in the game. That the script is available to anyone so it doesn't alter the skill/"skill check" relationship because clicking speed is NOT a skill check mechanic in the game, just poor design, improper gun mechanics, etc. On the other side is someone who believes clicking speed IS a skill check in the game. A pistol script would greatly alter the relationship that occurs between skills needed to interact with this "skill check". So obviously they would view his as a "cheat"
I think more time should be spent discussing what mechanics/game behaviors we believe to be "skill checks" that are interacted with using player skills, and less time pointing fingers at who we believe to be cheating/what is a cheat. Definitions and opinions will still vary greatly as views of skill and what "skill checks" vary, but it is my belief discussion around the relationships of what each person views as an involved skill and "skill check" mechanics will be far more insightful for developers and each other.
In response to Colt, who also wrote some logical posts:
I think the community defines what is cheating and what is not cheating. Much like any group of people make their own rules/laws in some fashion, the NS2 community can also determine the rules that govern fair play.
<!--quoteo(post=2065105:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:14 PM:name=Premonition)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Premonition @ Jan 22 2013, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a more inflammatory example lets analyze scripts. The hypothetical pistol script is just an input macro that automates the inputs for you. It is possible that the script does it FAR faster than possible for any human BUT is still COMPLETELY done without alteration to the games code. Someone who believes this script not to be a cheat will probably agree with the idea that clicking speed is not/should not be a "skill check" in the game. That the script is available to anyone so it doesn't alter the skill/"skill check" relationship because clicking speed is NOT a skill check mechanic in the game, just poor design, improper gun mechanics, etc. On the other side is someone who believes clicking speed IS a skill check in the game. A pistol script would greatly alter the relationship that occurs between skills needed to interact with this "skill check". So obviously they would view his as a "cheat"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'd say scripts that increase the firing rate aren't a cheat, they are an exploit of a design or programming oversight. it is an exploit that should be corrected by enforcing a maximum rof.
this was a thing in wolfET, was really bad when people got akimbos and the rof was probably twice that of the automatic weapons. but yeah, it's an easy fix, tf2 gets it right.
about palette swaps, i'm ok with palette-swaps in q3 or tf2... not so much in a game where hiding is actually a component of gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=2065124:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:41 PM:name=amoral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (amoral @ Jan 22 2013, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd say scripts that increase the firing rate aren't a cheat, they are an exploit of a design or programming oversight. it is an exploit that should be corrected by enforcing a maximum rof.
this was a thing in wolfET, was really bad when people got akimbos and the rof was probably twice that of the automatic weapons. but yeah, it's an easy fix, tf2 gets it right.
about palette swaps, i'm ok with palette-swaps in q3 or tf2... not so much in a game where hiding is actually a component of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is a perfectly valid opinion. So what we should be discussing is what we think the fire delay on the pistol should be. Increasing it to something a bit closer to average clicking speed would reduce the usefulness of scripts if you believe them to be a cheat, AND correct the exploit of design/programming oversight for those of your opinion.
So if we WERE to increase the pistol fire delay, what possible cases of skill and skill checks that exist here could be altered? One scenario I can think of is where you are using a pistol and just unloading into a static object. I'm in the camp that believes that clicking speed IS a skill check, so what needs to be looked at is the trade off between reducing the skill ceiling for pistol fire and correcting the environment in which a exploitative script can exist.
So the general consensus has become what a cheat is and is not will be debated on forums while the actual enforcement will be on the servers themselves and by the admins of those servers.
My view still stays at the moment you begin to change the code, modify the game or add anything other than vanilla play is crossing the line in some way. Simply saying that some players have better graphics or play style from hardware isn’t a base for cheating, since if we all had the money we could do it ourselves.
While it will remain a pain to identify players cheating or hacking it could be made easier with a first person spectate?
<!--quoteo(post=2064701:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:03 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 21 2013, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WoW is full of mods, and they've been nothing but beneficial in that game.
Well, most of them. Some are completely pointless.
The point I'm trying to make is that the playerbase tells new plays what mods are good, and which aren't through gameplay.
On WoW, you found out from your guild. In NS2, I suppose the equivalent would either be your clan or the servers on your favourites.
If you don't have a "Favourite" server, there's a good chance you probably don't care if JoeAwesome667 has a crosshair mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is wrong. Many WoW mods (or addons) have been banned. One addon was AVR, which allowed players to draw in the in-game world. The game was changed to stop it. Simple fishing scripts get players banned, because it gives them an edge.
Many WoW mods make the game too easy and end up being used as permanent crutches. It got so bad, practically every raid group (clan) has a requirement for raid addons.
In PvP (player vs player), competitive level, players have specialized macros to give them an edge. Pub players usually don't know about this, adding a barrier for pub players. The PvP part of WoW has been exploited on many levels; macros, hacks, addons, ranking.
You really shouldn't use WoW as an example.
Also, the playerbase doesn't tell everything, especially if it gives an advantage in competition.
<!--quoteo(post=2064846:date=Jan 22 2013, 06:48 AM:name=lumina)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lumina @ Jan 22 2013, 06:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Competitive CS didn't allow scripts or macros for anything other than buying equipment before the round started. At least that is how it was when I played back in the CAL days. That is a bad example unless you just want ready room scripts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The only scripts allowed for RtCW/ET in CAL were class changing/spawn location swap scripts.
An example that would go with NS2: A script to evolve to a fade with Adrenaline and Carapace.
Basically, something that bypasses the menu, but does something you can do in the game anyways.
The only people who defend pistol scripting are ######ting scripters, it has nothing to do with click speed and everything to do with track aim, if you can hit 1 shot without a script you can hit 2-4 shots with a script, if you can hit 2 pistol shots without a script you can hit 4-8 with a script, the two aren't even remotely comparable or a "LERN 2 CLIK MOUS" issue since the sound alone is obvious as ######.
At the best you're doubling your damage for half the effort and at worse you're quadrupling it and simply making flick kills normal people who aren't called rapha cooller or fatal1ty could not make, the pistol has a higher damage because it is semi automatic, 1 click 1 shot, if you script it to make it automatic, 1 click 2-4 shots it's no longer balanced is it.
<!--quoteo(post=2065078:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:18 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 22 2013, 04:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When those tools reach outside of the game environment and the provided, relevant settings, to customizable and modifiable UI settings... Yes, it's cheating.
When it pertains to in-game, provided-as-engine knowledge regarding features and strategies? No, it's not.
Regarding hardware; I'll agree that some folks have an advantage due to hardware, this is a given. It's just one of those realities enforced by the nature of the beast. Some performance will be better than others.
As i said before, it's the spirit in which the modification is pursued. People download cheat-like alien vision and stuff off of the workshop from what I understand not because "It's pretty and I like it" or "Because i have knowledge"; it's because they seek a flat advantage over everyone else, and this attitude is not justified by "Other people can do it too." The same argument can be used with aimbots. "Not my fault they aren't using aimbots, they could if they were smart enough." That's a fool's errant argument on a pulpit of idealism, and doesn't hold true to any pragmatic extent.
Cheating is wrong. It is the attitude through which it is pursued that is the core of the problem; and even minor advantages like custom-installed crosshairs and customized vision modes are, typically, cheating. It's just not something the community wants to admit.
I think a very equitable solution is just to have UWE step in and state whether or not such 'mods' are in fact cheating by their definition (The truest possible) of their intended product, and then provide in-game setting support for things they find valid. e.g; crosshairs, gorge heart healspray, funny vision modes, etc.
Elsewise, you're giving a blanket cover-all to the 'IM NOT CHEATING EVERYONE CAN DOWNLOAD IT' folks, who are clearly just trying to justify their ill-minded attempts to cheat in a game of all things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You conveniently overlooked the word "legitimately" in the sentence you quoted. Downloading and installing aimbots in not legitimate.
Glad to see the thread salvaged from its earlier state to something constructive.
I think the best post in the thread went completely un-noticed by everyone in here defending their particular <i>brand</i> of cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=2064771:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:15 PM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Jan 22 2013, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->whatever a league decides to consider cheating shall be considered cheating, unless its completely impossible to enforce, then it might as well not be cheating.
if uwe wants to consider changing crosshair cheating cheating then they can try to enforce it into the game as best as they can or leave it to the server owners to come up witht their own anti cheat solution.
If a league wants to allow aimbotting, they can and then all of sudden aimbotting is not cheating anymore, unless uwe enforcement overules the league.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE controls what the game can do to a certain extent, and leagues (I just called the tournaments) determine what is allowed beyond that. Pubs are stuck with what ever the server-owner and UWE combine to create.
There were some other great posts too, too many to quote or acknowledge all at once without becoming a massive distraction. But what I think we've learned here is :
1. No one cheats. 2. Everyone cheats.
It all depends on who's cheat you're talking about I guess ;)
FWIW, people do seem hung up on the possibility that "scripts" might allow the pistol to become a rail-gun. For the sake of discussion, there are peripherals out there with an auto-fire mode built into them. The earliest one I can remember was a controller for the Atari 2600 that just kept "clicking" for you if you held down the red button. It's not a script, its built into the hardware. Since we don't consider some video cards being better, rendering faster, giving an edge over all the low FPS players a cheat, why wouldn't a mouse or game controller that does auto-fire be any different. More to the point, if UWE wants to limit the ROF of the pistol, they can.
The point of bringing this discussion back to the pistol script is that it is, so far, the only thing outside of aim-bots that people are unwilling to universally condemn as a clear cheat.
The only attempt at defining why its a cheat seems to be the limits of human ability to "click" which is simply a rapid-repetitive motion which is more about muscle control. I find it extremely disingenuous to call an auto-fire mouse, a script that does the same thing, or anything in-between "cheating" while rebinding M1 to a scroll-wheel to likewise execute "clicks" faster than "humanly possible" ok.
WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO WE MAKE THESE DISTINCTIONS?!?!
I'm more fascinated by the way people arrive at their personal boundaries of what is considered a cheat than anything else in this thread. So much hand-wringing about cross hairs, rightfully pointed out as somewhat ridiculous, only magnifies the point... those of you defending <b>your </b>cheat-mods while accusing others of cheating with <b>their </b>cheat-mods have some massive problems with cognitive dissonance...
In the end, only a virgin install on stock hardware can eliminate personal advantages purchased with anything other than "skill". Since no one wants to play that way, ... dunno, but the spinning people are doing is pretty entertaining regardless.
Don't know about aimbots, but at least with default consistency check you can do a wallhack, bright textures and see through darkness, umbra, spores, easily detect mines, blinked fade and etc. <a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.
I haven't any custom crosshairs or scripts or mods of any kind installed. Do I get a multiplier on my points in game? Or at least a badge?
I do 'see the point' of changing these things, but to be brutally honest, I can't be bothered. I seem to do just fine as it is. If crosshairs weren't a problem, why aren't there a bunch that you can choose from in the game menu (aside from that simply not having been implemented yet?). If they were in the menus, I'd probably have gone through to pick one I like better, but quite honestly, I just can't be bothered to go to the workshop in the hope that it will boost my K:D ratio. That usually doesn't need any help (although some games...).
I kind of think it's sad that people do, but I'm not trying to stop you doing it, just voicing my personal opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2065519:date=Jan 23 2013, 12:37 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 23 2013, 12:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065519"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Glad to see the thread salvaged from its earlier state to something constructive.
I think the best post in the thread went completely un-noticed by everyone in here defending their particular <i>brand</i> of cheating.
UWE controls what the game can do to a certain extent, and leagues (I just called the tournaments) determine what is allowed beyond that. Pubs are stuck with what ever the server-owner and UWE combine to create.
There were some other great posts too, too many to quote or acknowledge all at once without becoming a massive distraction. But what I think we've learned here is :
1. No one cheats. 2. Everyone cheats.
It all depends on who's cheat you're talking about I guess ;)
FWIW, people do seem hung up on the possibility that "scripts" might allow the pistol to become a rail-gun. For the sake of discussion, there are peripherals out there with an auto-fire mode built into them. The earliest one I can remember was a controller for the Atari 2600 that just kept "clicking" for you if you held down the red button. It's not a script, its built into the hardware. Since we don't consider some video cards being better, rendering faster, giving an edge over all the low FPS players a cheat, why wouldn't a mouse or game controller that does auto-fire be any different. More to the point, if UWE wants to limit the ROF of the pistol, they can.
The point of bringing this discussion back to the pistol script is that it is, so far, the only thing outside of aim-bots that people are unwilling to universally condemn as a clear cheat.
The only attempt at defining why its a cheat seems to be the limits of human ability to "click" which is simply a rapid-repetitive motion which is more about muscle control. I find it extremely disingenuous to call an auto-fire mouse, a script that does the same thing, or anything in-between "cheating" while rebinding M1 to a scroll-wheel to likewise execute "clicks" faster than "humanly possible" ok.
WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO WE MAKE THESE DISTINCTIONS?!?!
I'm more fascinated by the way people arrive at their personal boundaries of what is considered a cheat than anything else in this thread. So much hand-wringing about cross hairs, rightfully pointed out as somewhat ridiculous, only magnifies the point... those of you defending <b>your </b>cheat-mods while accusing others of cheating with <b>their </b>cheat-mods have some massive problems with cognitive dissonance...
In the end, only a virgin install on stock hardware can eliminate personal advantages purchased with anything other than "skill". Since no one wants to play that way, ... dunno, but the spinning people are doing is pretty entertaining regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this post: king of cognitive dissonance discusses the ridiculousness of nuanced discussion by adopting an all-or-nothing fallacy to proclaim victory over the cheaters.
<!--quoteo(post=2065907:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:53 PM:name=Uzver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzver @ Jan 24 2013, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about aimbots, but at least with default consistency check you can do a wallhack, bright textures and see through darkness, umbra, spores, easily detect mines, blinked fade and etc. <a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2065907:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:53 AM:name=Uzver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzver @ Jan 24 2013, 08:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't know about aimbots, but at least with default consistency check you can do a wallhack, bright textures and see through darkness, umbra, spores, easily detect mines, blinked fade and etc. <a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. We've been petitioning UWE for month(s) to improve consistency checking to shut this ###### down. In the mean time, the only way to stop this cheating is by running tempest's extended consistency checks on your server
Custom crosshairs do not qualify as a cheat because that would imply that a level of difficulty or "a skill check" is derived from the shape of your crosshair, which is an utterly ridiculous notion. Hey lets make a difficulty level that gives you a sh*tty crosshair 'cause that'd be a great mechanic... -doesn't happen. The reason crosshairs aren't the "optimal dot" by default is because it looks boring.
<!--quoteo(post=2065953:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:51 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 24 2013, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In this post: king of cognitive dissonance discusses the ridiculousness of nuanced discussion by adopting an all-or-nothing fallacy to proclaim victory over the cheaters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are you so defensive? You're taking this all way too personally. I'm particularity bemused at the notion that I've somehow proclaimed "victory" over anyone at all... O.o
Also, I think you don't understand half the words you typed. But rather than derail the thread, I'll just invite you to google definitions and let my post stand as is. Have a beer and relax bro...
<!--quoteo(post=2065976:date=Jan 24 2013, 06:34 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 24 2013, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Custom crosshairs do not qualify as a cheat because that would imply that a level of difficulty or "a skill check" is derived from the shape of your crosshair, which is an utterly ridiculous notion. Hey lets make a difficulty level that gives you a sh*tty crosshair 'cause that'd be a great mechanic... -doesn't happen. The reason crosshairs aren't the "optimal dot" by default is because it looks boring.
<!--quoteo(post=2065981:date=Jan 24 2013, 07:52 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 24 2013, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065981"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for your opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's as much an opinion as law against murder is. I'd rather call it common sense but... Thanks for your opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2065911:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:09 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 24 2013, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't any custom crosshairs or scripts or mods of any kind installed. Do I get a multiplier on my points in game? Or at least a badge?
I do 'see the point' of changing these things, but to be brutally honest, I can't be bothered. I seem to do just fine as it is. If crosshairs weren't a problem, why aren't there a bunch that you can choose from in the game menu (aside from that simply not having been implemented yet?). If they were in the menus, I'd probably have gone through to pick one I like better, but quite honestly, I just can't be bothered to go to the workshop in the hope that it will boost my K:D ratio. That usually doesn't need any help (although some games...).
I kind of think it's sad that people do, but I'm not trying to stop you doing it, just voicing my personal opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> In most games there are a bunch of crosshairs to choose from. And yes, you already guessed it - they simply haven't been implemented in NS2 yet, because there's a GAZILLION things more important in the to-do-list, in case you haven't noticed from the forum frontpage. Besides, why use dev time on something so ridiculously simple when you can rely on the community? You just take paint and draw lines chrissake...
Some people prefer dot crosshairs. Some people prefer x crosshairs. Some people (like me) prefer the default big crosshair.
So out from the above people, whose crosshair is cheating? Answer: NOBODYS. They're all in the center of the screen! The point where your bullets hit doesn't change!
<!--quoteo(post=2065991:date=Jan 24 2013, 08:31 PM:name=DC_Darkling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DC_Darkling @ Jan 24 2013, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ensl does alow custom crosshairs. if the league does, I wont bother going against it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like to hear some tourny disallowing custom crosshairs.
I haven't even seen a convo about the topic, ever. (till now.)
But for the sake of lols, a crosshair that COULD possibly give you an advantage: maybe one with a line below the actual crosshair, that would show the flying arc of a grenade launcher over a set distance. Lol. Someone should totally make that tbh. Would look awesome and possibly even be useful. GL's don't require much arcing, but still. :3 <img src="http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z4AoyycLlJI/0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<!--quoteo(post=2065021:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:25 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 22 2013, 03:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to chime in with my opinion here (Not addressing others' points or arguments).
I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
I think anyone who intentionally edits anything to give themselves an edge that vanilla players (Default installation users) do not have is cheating in spirit, if not 'according to the rules.'
The flat of it is that cheating is a mentality; you seek to give yourself an edge that people who are playing with you do not have. If this is the pursuit, you are attempting to 'cheat'. Some cheating is mild. Some is not. Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating. Is it some kind of terrible, awful, game-ruining cheating? No. Aimbots are. Wallhacks are. Obviously. Common sense applies.
But I think to argue that having advantages over others that are not included in the game interface and utilizing them to obtain a definitive 'edge', is pretty much the base definition of cheating itself. It's a matter of greys; some 'cheating' is justifiable under "The defaults are bad" or "I like the pretty gorge healing hearts"; some are never justifiable, such as aim assisting, seeing through walls.... etc.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You heard it here folks, if you don't like playing in a soupy mess of fog, you're a cheater!
I can't believe people are still making posts about custom crosshairs being a cheat. We dealt with this ###### years ago and the lines of cheating are determined by the community and have been <b>well</b> defined.
Colts post is silly, he's using the phrase "having an edge" but then turns the edge into cheating with some perverse logic. Having an edge, is having an edge. An edge is a space between vanilla and cheating. It's neither of the aforementioned, it's an edge. Don't let your logic run too wild. :P
Jokes on you guys, nobody cares about your opinion except to try to tell you why its wrong and everyone is just gonna keep on doing there on thing.
Use your common sense, pink skulks are obviously unfair. If its up in the air then use whatever mods you want and dont qq if your too busy being a pariah to spend 20 seconds getting a custom crosshair.
<!--quoteo(post=2066002:date=Jan 24 2013, 11:10 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Jan 24 2013, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You heard it here folks, if you don't like playing in a soupy mess of fog, you're a cheater!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems more like, if you turn down the settings, so there is no fog (making it easier to distinguish targets), then your giving yourself an edge over players who are playing with fog on.
Quake 3 on a high-end rig. You can play with everything on (shadows, finer details, etc) and targets can now hide in shadows or around detail doorways. You can play with everything off (no shadows, square doors, models that match their hitboxs, etc) and targets can't hide in shadows or around doorways.
Everything off is meant for lower-end rigs, not for giving an edge.
<!--quoteo(post=2066145:date=Jan 25 2013, 01:44 AM:name=Ciro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ciro @ Jan 25 2013, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything off is meant for lower-end rigs, not for giving an edge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Doesn't matter, its the practical effect that does... in the end, people with a desire to have every possible advantage will eventually reach the point of lowest possible restriction to gain the highest possible performance with their present skill set.
That doesn't mean that their skill set won't improve, but it does mean that the game attributes will default to the best possible performance and aesthetic qualities that result in the best possible envionement for a particular player to perform in. (within the rules, as defined by the server owner of tourny operator)
To summarize, if anyone goes into 'try hard' mode, they will turn off all the fancy graphical options that a game offers if they in any way interfere with their ability to perform in game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mestaritonttu+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's as much an opinion as law against murder is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow... just, wow.
I mean, ... no... just wow!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-Shaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't believe people are still making posts about custom crosshairs being a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because <b>you </b> (and some others) don't <i>consider </i>it a cheat. Thats kinda the whole point... some people will, and if the majority do (or if UWE decides to enforce its design choices), what then, do you admit you've been cheating? Most people consider the parameters that come with the game to be the "intended" set of parameters that everyone will use in a "fair" game... if you modify your set independent of the core set, you've fundamentally altered the way the game is played<i> from your perspective</i>.
What I find fascinating is the ability of people to justify their personal departures from that paradigm as "minor" without grasping the concept that ANY departure from the paradigm constitutes a <b>departure </b>(ie. cheating). The magnitude isn't relevant at all... its the infraction. All the hand wringing and spinning doesn't change where you stand once you take it upon yourself to depart from the intended design of the game for your personal preference. Where the hair splitting begins is where your personal comfort factor ends... everyone is, subjectively, going to arrive at a different point of departure on this given the open design of NS2, specifically.
The authoritative tone taken by admitted cheaters on how their particular cheats <i>don't count</i> is side-splittingly hilarious in its intellectual dishonesty.
<!--QuoteBegin-statikg+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jokes on you guys, nobody cares about your opinion except to try to tell you why its wrong and everyone is just gonna keep on doing there on thing.
Use your common sense, pink skulks are obviously unfair. If its up in the air then use whatever mods you want and dont qq if your too busy being a pariah to spend 20 seconds getting a custom crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe someone here could read this and maybe sit and think about it for 5 minutes before bothering to post again. Well said sir!
Wont help though, I think some folks around here are a bit hung up on the idea that they <u>are </u>cheating... it doesn't mesh with their self image I guess. It just can't be true, right? It's only [insert my cheat here] and <i>everyone </i>[citation needed] says it's cool.
Comments
What about people with computers that aren't "stock". Macro enabled keyboards, high DPI mice, High-end GPUs, Very High speed internet connections, SSDs? This list can go on and on, each item adding something to the game experience that is above and beyond a "stock" PC; and can give you an advantage over another player.
Advantages in a game, or anything else for that matter, stem from knowledge. No one is born with knowledge. Everyone has to learn. So, once you learn about some feature that you can use to your advantage you cannot use it until everyone knows about it? Even if it is a stock feature?
Am I a cheater because I bind j1 to f1 because this is not part of the stock game?
Am I a cheater because I know the better hiding places for skulks to ambush from and a new player hasn't learned about them yet? Do I have to forgo shooting into corners and over doors in anticipation of there being a skulk there simply because a vanilla player might not know about it?
Knowledge is power. Using all the tools legitimately available to you is not cheating. If a new player does not know that they can evolve, does that mean no one can evolve? No, they need to learn.
When those tools reach outside of the game environment and the provided, relevant settings, to customizable and modifiable UI settings... Yes, it's cheating.
When it pertains to in-game, provided-as-engine knowledge regarding features and strategies? No, it's not.
Regarding hardware; I'll agree that some folks have an advantage due to hardware, this is a given. It's just one of those realities enforced by the nature of the beast. Some performance will be better than others.
As i said before, it's the spirit in which the modification is pursued. People download cheat-like alien vision and stuff off of the workshop from what I understand not because "It's pretty and I like it" or "Because i have knowledge"; it's because they seek a flat advantage over everyone else, and this attitude is not justified by "Other people can do it too." The same argument can be used with aimbots. "Not my fault they aren't using aimbots, they could if they were smart enough." That's a fool's errant argument on a pulpit of idealism, and doesn't hold true to any pragmatic extent.
Cheating is wrong. It is the attitude through which it is pursued that is the core of the problem; and even minor advantages like custom-installed crosshairs and customized vision modes are, typically, cheating. It's just not something the community wants to admit.
I think a very equitable solution is just to have UWE step in and state whether or not such 'mods' are in fact cheating by their definition (The truest possible) of their intended product, and then provide in-game setting support for things they find valid. e.g; crosshairs, gorge heart healspray, funny vision modes, etc.
Elsewise, you're giving a blanket cover-all to the 'IM NOT CHEATING EVERYONE CAN DOWNLOAD IT' folks, who are clearly just trying to justify their ill-minded attempts to cheat in a game of all things.
I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
...
Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating.
...
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
addressing the first point, personally, i run with absolutely bare minimum settings, and i think it actually improves my performance beyond a simple bump in frame-rate. i think bloom and infestation would actually distract me even if there were no performance hit. regardless, moot point, right now i'm running at some ungodly low resolution to bump my fps to a low 40 range.
the second point, i'm not going to argue, i've got a single white dot, and i consider the default crosshair a deliberate debuff to team marine.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Nature of Cheating
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
A common theme I believe these all reduce to is what each person believes contributes to the "skill" of the game. While the definition of what "skill checks" are in the game vary from person to person, it seems everyone agrees that anything that alters the default behavior of what they consider "skill" and how it interacts with these "skill check" game mechanics.
<b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What is a "Cheat"?
<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
For instance, some individuals in this thread have voiced that they believe alternate crosshairs are considered cheats, while other community members have noted that a vast majority of the player population disagrees. What is truly being argued over here is a players definition of skill and how that skill interacts with the crosshair. Someone who believes that alternate crosshairs are cheating most likely believe that the crosshair (even if it is incredibly inefficient at its task of assisting in aiming) and ability to cope/use this crosshair is a "skill check" in the game. People who alter their crosshairs and DONT believe it to be a cheat will probably agree with the seniment that the "skill check" is the action of having to aim, and that trying to cope with the crosshair isn't a "skill check" just poor design.
Model alterations can also be analyzed under this relationship to determine whether you, or someone else may consider it a cheat. For instance, a modification that alters the skulk model so instead of its current texture it has a red black evil looking texture will probably not be considered cheating, if it doesn't alter any of the relationships of a players skill and how it interacts with "skill checks" (E.G. skulk visibility in the dark, skulk size, skulk visibility in light, etc.). However a skulk model that makes skulks fluorescence regardless of lighting conditions may GREATLY alter skill and how it interacts with "skill checks", depending on what that player considered to be skill and "skill checks".
For a more inflammatory example lets analyze scripts. The hypothetical pistol script is just an input macro that automates the inputs for you. It is possible that the script does it FAR faster than possible for any human BUT is still COMPLETELY done without alteration to the games code. Someone who believes this script not to be a cheat will probably agree with the idea that clicking speed is not/should not be a "skill check" in the game. That the script is available to anyone so it doesn't alter the skill/"skill check" relationship because clicking speed is NOT a skill check mechanic in the game, just poor design, improper gun mechanics, etc. On the other side is someone who believes clicking speed IS a skill check in the game. A pistol script would greatly alter the relationship that occurs between skills needed to interact with this "skill check". So obviously they would view his as a "cheat"
I think more time should be spent discussing what mechanics/game behaviors we believe to be "skill checks" that are interacted with using player skills, and less time pointing fingers at who we believe to be cheating/what is a cheat. Definitions and opinions will still vary greatly as views of skill and what "skill checks" vary, but it is my belief discussion around the relationships of what each person views as an involved skill and "skill check" mechanics will be far more insightful for developers and each other.
That's a great post.
In response to Colt, who also wrote some logical posts:
I think the community defines what is cheating and what is not cheating. Much like any group of people make their own rules/laws in some fashion, the NS2 community can also determine the rules that govern fair play.
i'd say scripts that increase the firing rate aren't a cheat, they are an exploit of a design or programming oversight. it is an exploit that should be corrected by enforcing a maximum rof.
this was a thing in wolfET, was really bad when people got akimbos and the rof was probably twice that of the automatic weapons. but yeah, it's an easy fix, tf2 gets it right.
about palette swaps, i'm ok with palette-swaps in q3 or tf2... not so much in a game where hiding is actually a component of gameplay.
this was a thing in wolfET, was really bad when people got akimbos and the rof was probably twice that of the automatic weapons. but yeah, it's an easy fix, tf2 gets it right.
about palette swaps, i'm ok with palette-swaps in q3 or tf2... not so much in a game where hiding is actually a component of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And this is a perfectly valid opinion. So what we should be discussing is what we think the fire delay on the pistol should be. Increasing it to something a bit closer to average clicking speed would reduce the usefulness of scripts if you believe them to be a cheat, AND correct the exploit of design/programming oversight for those of your opinion.
So if we WERE to increase the pistol fire delay, what possible cases of skill and skill checks that exist here could be altered? One scenario I can think of is where you are using a pistol and just unloading into a static object. I'm in the camp that believes that clicking speed IS a skill check, so what needs to be looked at is the trade off between reducing the skill ceiling for pistol fire and correcting the environment in which a exploitative script can exist.
My view still stays at the moment you begin to change the code, modify the game or add anything other than vanilla play is crossing the line in some way. Simply saying that some players have better graphics or play style from hardware isn’t a base for cheating, since if we all had the money we could do it ourselves.
While it will remain a pain to identify players cheating or hacking it could be made easier with a first person spectate?
Well, most of them.
Some are completely pointless.
The point I'm trying to make is that the playerbase tells new plays what mods are good, and which aren't through gameplay.
On WoW, you found out from your guild.
In NS2, I suppose the equivalent would either be your clan or the servers on your favourites.
If you don't have a "Favourite" server, there's a good chance you probably don't care if JoeAwesome667 has a crosshair mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is wrong. Many WoW mods (or addons) have been banned. One addon was AVR, which allowed players to draw in the in-game world. The game was changed to stop it. Simple fishing scripts get players banned, because it gives them an edge.
Many WoW mods make the game too easy and end up being used as permanent crutches. It got so bad, practically every raid group (clan) has a requirement for raid addons.
In PvP (player vs player), competitive level, players have specialized macros to give them an edge. Pub players usually don't know about this, adding a barrier for pub players. The PvP part of WoW has been exploited on many levels; macros, hacks, addons, ranking.
You really shouldn't use WoW as an example.
Also, the playerbase doesn't tell everything, especially if it gives an advantage in competition.
The only scripts allowed for RtCW/ET in CAL were class changing/spawn location swap scripts.
An example that would go with NS2:
A script to evolve to a fade with Adrenaline and Carapace.
Basically, something that bypasses the menu, but does something you can do in the game anyways.
At the best you're doubling your damage for half the effort and at worse you're quadrupling it and simply making flick kills normal people who aren't called rapha cooller or fatal1ty could not make, the pistol has a higher damage because it is semi automatic, 1 click 1 shot, if you script it to make it automatic, 1 click 2-4 shots it's no longer balanced is it.
In NS1, they ended up changing the firing rate because of people scripting it.
When it pertains to in-game, provided-as-engine knowledge regarding features and strategies? No, it's not.
Regarding hardware; I'll agree that some folks have an advantage due to hardware, this is a given. It's just one of those realities enforced by the nature of the beast. Some performance will be better than others.
As i said before, it's the spirit in which the modification is pursued. People download cheat-like alien vision and stuff off of the workshop from what I understand not because "It's pretty and I like it" or "Because i have knowledge"; it's because they seek a flat advantage over everyone else, and this attitude is not justified by "Other people can do it too." The same argument can be used with aimbots. "Not my fault they aren't using aimbots, they could if they were smart enough." That's a fool's errant argument on a pulpit of idealism, and doesn't hold true to any pragmatic extent.
Cheating is wrong. It is the attitude through which it is pursued that is the core of the problem; and even minor advantages like custom-installed crosshairs and customized vision modes are, typically, cheating. It's just not something the community wants to admit.
I think a very equitable solution is just to have UWE step in and state whether or not such 'mods' are in fact cheating by their definition (The truest possible) of their intended product, and then provide in-game setting support for things they find valid. e.g; crosshairs, gorge heart healspray, funny vision modes, etc.
Elsewise, you're giving a blanket cover-all to the 'IM NOT CHEATING EVERYONE CAN DOWNLOAD IT' folks, who are clearly just trying to justify their ill-minded attempts to cheat in a game of all things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You conveniently overlooked the word "legitimately" in the sentence you quoted. Downloading and installing aimbots in not legitimate.
I think the best post in the thread went completely un-noticed by everyone in here defending their particular <i>brand</i> of cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=2064771:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:15 PM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Jan 22 2013, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064771"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->whatever a league decides to consider cheating shall be considered cheating, unless its completely impossible to enforce, then it might as well not be cheating.
if uwe wants to consider changing crosshair cheating cheating then they can try to enforce it into the game as best as they can or leave it to the server owners to come up witht their own anti cheat solution.
If a league wants to allow aimbotting, they can and then all of sudden aimbotting is not cheating anymore, unless uwe enforcement overules the league.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE controls what the game can do to a certain extent, and leagues (I just called the tournaments) determine what is allowed beyond that. Pubs are stuck with what ever the server-owner and UWE combine to create.
There were some other great posts too, too many to quote or acknowledge all at once without becoming a massive distraction. But what I think we've learned here is :
1. No one cheats.
2. Everyone cheats.
It all depends on who's cheat you're talking about I guess ;)
FWIW, people do seem hung up on the possibility that "scripts" might allow the pistol to become a rail-gun. For the sake of discussion, there are peripherals out there with an auto-fire mode built into them. The earliest one I can remember was a controller for the Atari 2600 that just kept "clicking" for you if you held down the red button. It's not a script, its built into the hardware. Since we don't consider some video cards being better, rendering faster, giving an edge over all the low FPS players a cheat, why wouldn't a mouse or game controller that does auto-fire be any different. More to the point, if UWE wants to limit the ROF of the pistol, they can.
The point of bringing this discussion back to the pistol script is that it is, so far, the only thing outside of aim-bots that people are unwilling to universally condemn as a clear cheat.
The only attempt at defining why its a cheat seems to be the limits of human ability to "click" which is simply a rapid-repetitive motion which is more about muscle control. I find it extremely disingenuous to call an auto-fire mouse, a script that does the same thing, or anything in-between "cheating" while rebinding M1 to a scroll-wheel to likewise execute "clicks" faster than "humanly possible" ok.
WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO WE MAKE THESE DISTINCTIONS?!?!
I'm more fascinated by the way people arrive at their personal boundaries of what is considered a cheat than anything else in this thread. So much hand-wringing about cross hairs, rightfully pointed out as somewhat ridiculous, only magnifies the point... those of you defending <b>your </b>cheat-mods while accusing others of cheating with <b>their </b>cheat-mods have some massive problems with cognitive dissonance...
In the end, only a virgin install on stock hardware can eliminate personal advantages purchased with anything other than "skill". Since no one wants to play that way, ... dunno, but the spinning people are doing is pretty entertaining regardless.
<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.
I do 'see the point' of changing these things, but to be brutally honest, I can't be bothered. I seem to do just fine as it is. If crosshairs weren't a problem, why aren't there a bunch that you can choose from in the game menu (aside from that simply not having been implemented yet?). If they were in the menus, I'd probably have gone through to pick one I like better, but quite honestly, I just can't be bothered to go to the workshop in the hope that it will boost my K:D ratio. That usually doesn't need any help (although some games...).
I kind of think it's sad that people do, but I'm not trying to stop you doing it, just voicing my personal opinion.
I think the best post in the thread went completely un-noticed by everyone in here defending their particular <i>brand</i> of cheating.
UWE controls what the game can do to a certain extent, and leagues (I just called the tournaments) determine what is allowed beyond that. Pubs are stuck with what ever the server-owner and UWE combine to create.
There were some other great posts too, too many to quote or acknowledge all at once without becoming a massive distraction. But what I think we've learned here is :
1. No one cheats.
2. Everyone cheats.
It all depends on who's cheat you're talking about I guess ;)
FWIW, people do seem hung up on the possibility that "scripts" might allow the pistol to become a rail-gun. For the sake of discussion, there are peripherals out there with an auto-fire mode built into them. The earliest one I can remember was a controller for the Atari 2600 that just kept "clicking" for you if you held down the red button. It's not a script, its built into the hardware. Since we don't consider some video cards being better, rendering faster, giving an edge over all the low FPS players a cheat, why wouldn't a mouse or game controller that does auto-fire be any different. More to the point, if UWE wants to limit the ROF of the pistol, they can.
The point of bringing this discussion back to the pistol script is that it is, so far, the only thing outside of aim-bots that people are unwilling to universally condemn as a clear cheat.
The only attempt at defining why its a cheat seems to be the limits of human ability to "click" which is simply a rapid-repetitive motion which is more about muscle control. I find it extremely disingenuous to call an auto-fire mouse, a script that does the same thing, or anything in-between "cheating" while rebinding M1 to a scroll-wheel to likewise execute "clicks" faster than "humanly possible" ok.
WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO WE MAKE THESE DISTINCTIONS?!?!
I'm more fascinated by the way people arrive at their personal boundaries of what is considered a cheat than anything else in this thread. So much hand-wringing about cross hairs, rightfully pointed out as somewhat ridiculous, only magnifies the point... those of you defending <b>your </b>cheat-mods while accusing others of cheating with <b>their </b>cheat-mods have some massive problems with cognitive dissonance...
In the end, only a virgin install on stock hardware can eliminate personal advantages purchased with anything other than "skill". Since no one wants to play that way, ... dunno, but the spinning people are doing is pretty entertaining regardless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In this post: king of cognitive dissonance discusses the ridiculousness of nuanced discussion by adopting an all-or-nothing fallacy to proclaim victory over the cheaters.
<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats actually quite cool for obsing a game!
<a href="https://www.dropbox.com/sh/788p303gd48kaqt/IJKat251aV" target="_blank">proofs</a>
Also you will don't get a ban from VAC - it just a mod that passes a default consistency check.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. We've been petitioning UWE for month(s) to improve consistency checking to shut this ###### down. In the mean time, the only way to stop this cheating is by running tempest's extended consistency checks on your server
Link:
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse?searchtext=extended+consistency+check&childpublishedfileid=0§ion=items&appid=4920&browsesort=trend" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse?...rowsesort=trend</a>
That is all.
Why are you so defensive? You're taking this all way too personally. I'm particularity bemused at the notion that I've somehow proclaimed "victory" over anyone at all... O.o
Also, I think you don't understand half the words you typed. But rather than derail the thread, I'll just invite you to google definitions and let my post stand as is. Have a beer and relax bro...
That is all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for your opinion.
It's as much an opinion as law against murder is. I'd rather call it common sense but... Thanks for your opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2065911:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:09 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 24 2013, 04:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't any custom crosshairs or scripts or mods of any kind installed. Do I get a multiplier on my points in game? Or at least a badge?
I do 'see the point' of changing these things, but to be brutally honest, I can't be bothered. I seem to do just fine as it is. If crosshairs weren't a problem, why aren't there a bunch that you can choose from in the game menu (aside from that simply not having been implemented yet?). If they were in the menus, I'd probably have gone through to pick one I like better, but quite honestly, I just can't be bothered to go to the workshop in the hope that it will boost my K:D ratio. That usually doesn't need any help (although some games...).
I kind of think it's sad that people do, but I'm not trying to stop you doing it, just voicing my personal opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In most games there are a bunch of crosshairs to choose from. And yes, you already guessed it - they simply haven't been implemented in NS2 yet, because there's a GAZILLION things more important in the to-do-list, in case you haven't noticed from the forum frontpage. Besides, why use dev time on something so ridiculously simple when you can rely on the community? You just take paint and draw lines chrissake...
Some people prefer dot crosshairs.
Some people prefer x crosshairs.
Some people (like me) prefer the default big crosshair.
So out from the above people, whose crosshair is cheating? Answer: NOBODYS. They're all in the center of the screen! The point where your bullets hit doesn't change!
if the league does, I wont bother going against it.
if the league does, I wont bother going against it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to hear some tourny disallowing custom crosshairs.
I haven't even seen a convo about the topic, ever. (till now.)
But for the sake of lols, a crosshair that COULD possibly give you an advantage: maybe one with a line below the actual crosshair, that would show the flying arc of a grenade launcher over a set distance. Lol. Someone should totally make that tbh. Would look awesome and possibly even be useful. GL's don't require much arcing, but still. :3
<img src="http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z4AoyycLlJI/0.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
I think anyone who intentionally edits anything to give themselves an edge that vanilla players (Default installation users) do not have is cheating in spirit, if not 'according to the rules.'
The flat of it is that cheating is a mentality; you seek to give yourself an edge that people who are playing with you do not have. If this is the pursuit, you are attempting to 'cheat'. Some cheating is mild. Some is not. Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating. Is it some kind of terrible, awful, game-ruining cheating? No. Aimbots are. Wallhacks are. Obviously. Common sense applies.
But I think to argue that having advantages over others that are not included in the game interface and utilizing them to obtain a definitive 'edge', is pretty much the base definition of cheating itself. It's a matter of greys; some 'cheating' is justifiable under "The defaults are bad" or "I like the pretty gorge healing hearts"; some are never justifiable, such as aim assisting, seeing through walls.... etc.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You heard it here folks, if you don't like playing in a soupy mess of fog, you're a cheater!
I can't believe people are still making posts about custom crosshairs being a cheat. We dealt with this ###### years ago and the lines of cheating are determined by the community and have been <b>well</b> defined.
Use your common sense, pink skulks are obviously unfair. If its up in the air then use whatever mods you want and dont qq if your too busy being a pariah to spend 20 seconds getting a custom crosshair.
It seems more like, if you turn down the settings, so there is no fog (making it easier to distinguish targets), then your giving yourself an edge over players who are playing with fog on.
Quake 3 on a high-end rig. You can play with everything on (shadows, finer details, etc) and targets can now hide in shadows or around detail doorways. You can play with everything off (no shadows, square doors, models that match their hitboxs, etc) and targets can't hide in shadows or around doorways.
Everything off is meant for lower-end rigs, not for giving an edge.
Doesn't matter, its the practical effect that does... in the end, people with a desire to have every possible advantage will eventually reach the point of lowest possible restriction to gain the highest possible performance with their present skill set.
That doesn't mean that their skill set won't improve, but it does mean that the game attributes will default to the best possible performance and aesthetic qualities that result in the best possible envionement for a particular player to perform in. (within the rules, as defined by the server owner of tourny operator)
To summarize, if anyone goes into 'try hard' mode, they will turn off all the fancy graphical options that a game offers if they in any way interfere with their ability to perform in game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mestaritonttu+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's as much an opinion as law against murder is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... just, wow.
I mean, ... no... just wow!!!
<!--QuoteBegin-Shaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can't believe people are still making posts about custom crosshairs being a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because <b>you </b> (and some others) don't <i>consider </i>it a cheat. Thats kinda the whole point... some people will, and if the majority do (or if UWE decides to enforce its design choices), what then, do you admit you've been cheating? Most people consider the parameters that come with the game to be the "intended" set of parameters that everyone will use in a "fair" game... if you modify your set independent of the core set, you've fundamentally altered the way the game is played<i> from your perspective</i>.
What I find fascinating is the ability of people to justify their personal departures from that paradigm as "minor" without grasping the concept that ANY departure from the paradigm constitutes a <b>departure </b>(ie. cheating). The magnitude isn't relevant at all... its the infraction. All the hand wringing and spinning doesn't change where you stand once you take it upon yourself to depart from the intended design of the game for your personal preference. Where the hair splitting begins is where your personal comfort factor ends... everyone is, subjectively, going to arrive at a different point of departure on this given the open design of NS2, specifically.
The authoritative tone taken by admitted cheaters on how their particular cheats <i>don't count</i> is side-splittingly hilarious in its intellectual dishonesty.
<!--QuoteBegin-statikg+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jokes on you guys, nobody cares about your opinion except to try to tell you why its wrong and everyone is just gonna keep on doing there on thing.
Use your common sense, pink skulks are obviously unfair. If its up in the air then use whatever mods you want and dont qq if your too busy being a pariah to spend 20 seconds getting a custom crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Maybe someone here could read this and maybe sit and think about it for 5 minutes before bothering to post again. Well said sir!
Wont help though, I think some folks around here are a bit hung up on the idea that they <u>are </u>cheating... it doesn't mesh with their self image I guess. It just can't be true, right? It's only [insert my cheat here] and <i>everyone </i>[citation needed] says it's cool.