<!--quoteo(post=2064378:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:07 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 21 2013, 12:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So what exactly is you point? I also could take a ######load of coke so my reaction and Valor go through the roof. I'd run in your mainhive screaming and massacre you with 500 APM. Would be doping and in this sens ekind of unfair even though you can really do nothing about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called picking and choosing your battles. Most people as it is see crosshair customization as a good thing to begin with. It also happens to be something that's impossible to detect under any circumstances. Which means that even if you did decide to ban something which most people see as positive, you would never have a way of enforcing that ban because it's something that's impossible to prove.
It's rare for it to come up, but one of the worst things an online game can do is ban an activity that's undetectable. Most forms of prohibited behavior are almost always detectable via one of two means (usually both) - player behavior and (potentially) anti-cheat software. Custom crosshairs fall into a category that would never be detectable by either, putting them into a permanent honor system style status.
And in response to your strawman: Stuff like physical doping in video games actually isn't illegal or against the rules in the vast majority of cases, simply because there is no means of enforcement. Writing a rule about people not taking adderall before a competition means jack and ###### if you don't have the physical means of enforcing that rule. Which is why organizations generally don't write rules and restrictions unless they feel they have some plausible means of enforcing them.
<!--quoteo(post=2064377:date=Jan 21 2013, 12:06 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 21 2013, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The point I'm getting at is that there's no way of telling the difference between:
1.) Player A who bound fire to left mouse button *and* movement on his scroll wheel
and
2.) Player B who's using a macro.
There's also no functional difference in gameplay effect from the two of them either. The base problem is that rapid click to fire is an awful mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. The pistol should either have a significantly slower refire rate, or it should have the option of hold down to fire - or both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving a mouse wheel can effect your accuracy of hiting a distant perched lerk compared to aiming and holding down a macro'ed button. In any case a good lerk won't stay at the same place to long to get nailed. Also the macro and wheel are situational at best for a situational weapon. When i kill a couple of skulks with a LMG while a third one bares down on me, I make every shot count with my pistol. I could macro my mouse wheel to mouse1, but I don't. I still have a high rate of fire by using only mouse1 thx to my paintball days.
Cross hairs that are in the game are there with a design intent behind them. They look the way they do for a reason. Modifying them to suit your personal taste is cheating.
Changing anything in the game except what's already included in the options menu.
Modifying anything about the game is cheating.
All you cheating modders should be banned.
I don't even know why anyone is talking about macros. I don't know anyone that uses one.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
The world of modifying isn't black and white... There is a general agreement in this here community, a line if you will, you have to cross before it is considered as cheating. Also the reason why crosshair mods are indeed accepted during scrims and clan matches, while all other materials (ie: the green neon player models you keep referring to) are checked.
And now please stop trying to troll or flamebait, or what ever it is you're trying to do. Repeating the same thing over and over again isn't going to make it any more valid...
<!--quoteo(post=2064462:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:38 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And now please stop trying to troll or flamebait, or what ever it is you're trying to do. Repeating the same thing over and over again isn't going to make it any more valid...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, no.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2064552:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:12 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 22 2013, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->cheating is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, but not all mods are cheating. This also has been discussed to hell and back during NS1. On these very same forums (thread :P)
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone has already spelled it out for you but you're choosing not to listen. This "cheating" or modifying the game for personal preference isn't black and white.
Your take on changing the color of the crosshair is absurd. There are tons of games that have this code built in to allow you to change the color to your liking. Are you saying that those games have built in cheats? Just because UWE didn't put this option in makes changing it a cheat?
Do you not realize that UWE encourages people to make mods to their game? In your eyes this would be cheating because it isn't in the games code.
What UWE should do is take out the statistics updated list of every player with there unique Steam ID and from there sort out the players with the most kills and least deaths. After UWE should find out what mods/scripts/settings those players have been using and figure out if any of those mods/scripts/ needs to be remove permanently from NS2. If this is not possible for UWE to do than all hope is lost.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Their is always a fine line between what is and isn't acceptable regarding game modifications. My personal philosophy is that if the modification allows you to do something that you weren't substantially able to do before, then its cheating. However, if its just improving on something that you already do well enough, its not cheating.
<u>Some examples:</u> - <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - Custom Crosshairs:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> I am perfectly capable of aiming with the default crosshairs, but many of them bug me to no end so I choose to use the custom dot crosshairs. Using them only improves, rather than creates, my ability to aim. - <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - FOV Slider:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Using the FOV slider to increase what I can see. I've found that I'm better if I reduce my resolution to less than my native one (1600v900 instead of 1920x108), but increase my FOV to match my area of view to match my 1920x1080 resolution. Since I'm not seeing anything more than I would on my native resolution, I'm not gaining an advantage (except with regards to increased performance). - <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Pistol Script:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> While I can fire the pistol fairly fast, there is no way I'd be able to do so as fast as the pistol script would allow me. Using it would give me an ability I've previously not had. - <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Brightly Textured Skulks:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Tracking skulks can be a pain, which makes painting them something like neon green so much easier. Just as I find alien vision to greatly increase my ability to locate and track marines, brightly textured skulks would do so for aliens.
The biggest problem with my approach is that its very individualized. I don't find the custom crosshairs to substantially improve my aim, but someone else might, making it a "cheat" in their eyes.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hang on.. i thought this thread was about the community view of what is considered cheating or not
There is no definition, we're trying to come up with it.
So using the 2 most frequently brought up examples in this thread... pistol script vs customized crosshairs, if the community believes that customized cross hair is ok and pistol script is not, then what do you think the definition should be?
As far as crosshairs go I would say something that removes the mouth model from skulks or gorges or something that shows you the boundaries for damage from skulk bite would be a bit far.
<!--quoteo(post=2063066:date=Jan 18 2013, 11:06 PM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 18 2013, 11:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What is this community’s view’s on cheating and hacking? Do the aim bot, wall hack and speed hack apply or do the scripts and macros also apply. I’ve heard that many players have stated that macros and scripts are allowed in competitive Counter Strike and Half Life 1 mods, so does that mean if they are allowed in one game, they are allowed in every game?
My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your view, for competitive play.
I partially agree for pub play. For pub play, everyone wont be on a top end rig. Some players need to use low resolution textures, increase brightness, low number of objects, etc.
I'm on the fence with model changing (Pub play). One side, it's fun! Other side, it can make targets more distinguishable, making thing unbalanced. I like it when pub servers have their own set of model swaps; like in Counter-strike.
Good topic. Good to know players aren't looking for green player models and bland maps for competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=2063085:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:03 AM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Jan 19 2013, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i saw a guy 50-1 the other day, everytime i would walk at him in straight line he would one shot with his shotgun perfect aimbot 360 noscope<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you use celerity?
<!--quoteo(post=2063663:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:22 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 20 2013, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank God NS2 is about so much more than aim and K/D, that there's much less incentive to aimbot than in your regular mainstream shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno about this. I know a single player with a wallhack, minimap player tracker, and aimbot could destroy a game in NS1; as alien (skulk) or marine. Hacks dramatically increase performance. For skulks, that's 75 for every bite, always on target. Perfect leap bites. Never being surprised, making it easy to control entire areas alone. For marines, just leave the auto target on and get ammo spammed. It can get ridiculous; hack stock marine > three-hive onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2064576:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:55 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 21 2013, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as crosshairs go I would say something that removes the mouth model from skulks or gorges or something that shows you the boundaries for damage from skulk bite would be a bit far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Removing the mouth is extremely far. It was abused in NS1 and makes it a lot easier to track your target.
<!--quoteo(post=2063103:date=Jan 19 2013, 02:25 AM:name=Res)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Res @ Jan 19 2013, 02:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063103"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It also removes the weapon models and alien view models from the screen.... no more alien teeth to obscure your view when you bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What's wrong with this exactly?
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.
<!--quoteo(post=2064556:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:20 AM:name=MiniH0wie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiniH0wie @ Jan 22 2013, 02:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone has already spelled it out for you but you're choosing not to listen. This "cheating" or modifying the game for personal preference isn't black and white.
Your take on changing the color of the crosshair is absurd. There are tons of games that have this code built in to allow you to change the color to your liking. Are you saying that those games have built in cheats? Just because UWE didn't put this option in makes changing it a cheat?
Do you not realize that UWE encourages people to make mods to their game? In your eyes this would be cheating because it isn't in the games code.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, then I agree with everyone else on earth that cheating is bad. /thread right?
Oh wait... my entire contribution to the thread is predicated on the notion that cheating isn't defined in NS2 except by the people already in the habit of modifying the game from its basic design. So, on behalf of all the players out there playing the stock game, I'm here to point out that you are all cheating.
Unless you give me a definition of cheating that everyone agrees with, how are we supposed to answer the OP in an intelligent and reasoned way? Answer : we don't.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2064579:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:59 AM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 22 2013, 01:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's wrong with this exactly?
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> However this isn't a symmetrical game like Quake, this is an asymmetrical game where a ranged team is facing off vs a melee team.
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.
<!--quoteo(post=2064579:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:59 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 21 2013, 05:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064579"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What's wrong with this exactly?
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the reason why I stopped playing it. The "best" players staying on top through setting exploits. Bunny hoping and fun weapons are the only thing that kept that game alive. It's so bad, it's partly accepted in competitive play. I would hate for NS2 to become that.
<!--quoteo(post=2063066:date=Jan 19 2013, 08:06 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 19 2013, 08:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063066"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for emphasis : Mods are cheats under this definition. Its either a virgin install/game or its not.
<!--quoteo(post=2064583:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However this isn't a symmetrical game like Quake, this is an asymmetrical game where a ranged team is facing off vs a melee team.
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The same statement could be applied to the weapons in Quake 3. They obscure your view, and the muzzle flash temporarily blinds you.
I realise it's not a totally fair comparison, because of the asymmetry of the game, but my question still stands.
Why is this bad? From a purely competitive standpoint, that is.
Wouldn't the best player/team win if everyone was doing this anyways?
<!--quoteo(post=2064584:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM:name=Ciro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ciro @ Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Part of the reason why I stopped playing it. The "best" players staying on top through setting exploits. Bunny hoping and fun weapons are the only thing that kept that game alive. It's so bad, it's partly accepted in competitive play. I would hate for NS2 to become that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunny hopping was/is an exploit.
Bunny hopping was only possible due to a bug in the Half-Life engine.
<!--quoteo(post=2064585:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:11 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quoted for emphasis : Mods are cheats under this definition. Its either a virgin install/game or its not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm of the opinion that if the mod is purely cosmetic/superficial in nature, it's not cheating.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
Those files are enforced by consistency checking though, so in terms of competitive matches this is a none-issue. I'd also like to see those files checked for transparancy exploits. And the reasons I mentioned would only serve to make marines too powerful up close and aliens also too powerful in general with their heavy damage bites. Screwing the balancing that goes into none spam timed biting and marine positioning
<!--quoteo(post=2064589:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:18 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Those files are enforced by consistency checking though, so in terms of competitive matches this is a none-issue. I'd also like to see those files checked for transparancy exploits. And the reasons I mentioned would only serve to make marines too powerful up close and aliens also too powerful in general with their heavy damage bites. Screwing the balancing that goes into none spam timed biting and marine positioning<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Eh.
Considering the "cooldown" between bites, having no teeth wouldn't make it spammier. You'd just be able to see what's going on, instead of having your vision obscured by the inside of a mouth.
I think it'd end up increasing the pace of the game, which is fine for competition. Faster paced = More skill required.(generally)
<!--quoteo(post=2064592:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:28 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 06:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, I'm not pulling those things out of my magic hat. It is based on the 10+ years development and balancing that has gone into NS(2)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm talking from a competitive player's point of view.
I used to play in CAL-I in 2002.
Anything that can be done to give you an "edge" via in game commands is done. This ends up with EVERYONE doing the same things, and leagues setting limits on what things you can change and to what degree.
Competitive play is not even in the same ballpark as a pub game.
I could see removing guns and teeth being detrimental to pub games, because it's probably only one guy doing it. In a league/competitive game where this is the norm(theorhetically), nobody would have an unfair advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2064569:date=Jan 22 2013, 11:48 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 22 2013, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Their is always a fine line between what is and isn't acceptable regarding game modifications. My personal philosophy is that if the modification allows you to do something that you weren't substantially able to do before, then its cheating. However, if its just improving on something that you already do well enough, its not cheating.
<u>Some examples:</u> - <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - Custom Crosshairs:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> I am perfectly capable of aiming with the default crosshairs, but many of them bug me to no end so I choose to use the custom dot crosshairs. Using them only improves, rather than creates, my ability to aim. - <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - FOV Slider:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Using the FOV slider to increase what I can see. I've found that I'm better if I reduce my resolution to less than my native one (1600v900 instead of 1920x108), but increase my FOV to match my area of view to match my 1920x1080 resolution. Since I'm not seeing anything more than I would on my native resolution, I'm not gaining an advantage (except with regards to increased performance). - <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Pistol Script:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> While I can fire the pistol fairly fast, there is no way I'd be able to do so as fast as the pistol script would allow me. Using it would give me an ability I've previously not had. - <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Brightly Textured Skulks:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Tracking skulks can be a pain, which makes painting them something like neon green so much easier. Just as I find alien vision to greatly increase my ability to locate and track marines, brightly textured skulks would do so for aliens.
The biggest problem with my approach is that its very individualized. I don't find the custom crosshairs to substantially improve my aim, but someone else might, making it a "cheat" in their eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with everything except the x-hair part, if UWE put in an option to change the x-hair (valve did similar when they locked the vanilla servers from custom mods) then I would agree.
But whilst it requires a technical knowledge that is not built into the game I see it as cheating. Simply because some but not everyone can do this.
Modding is a necessary part of any engine, but should not take precedence over players ability to enjoy the game the way UWE intended it to be played.
This is not about whether comps want to run with different rules but whether or not people should be able to find a game where the other players dont have unfair advantage. Currently we dont have true vanilla servers, will they be more or less popular we can all theorise but unless we provide them its all meaningless arguing.
Offer 3 types of servers, True Vanilla, x-hair friendly and comp/mod friendly. That way we let the people decide which type of servers they actually want.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
But that is just the thing as it would give Skulks and Lerks an unfair advantage, making it too easy to track your bites and not needing to properly time them... Not to mention marines as well when up close and personal (the alien's domain). This has been tested and deemed imbalanced at any skill level...
Again this isn't a symmetrical game, where both teams are ranged and if you change a game element like this, it doesn't really matter because if every does it is has the same impact on any player. But in NS(2) it has a big impact on how the marines and the aliens play and how they engage combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2064596:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:32 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 21 2013, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could see removing guns and teeth being detrimental to pub games, because it's probably only one guy doing it. In a league/competitive game where this is the norm(theorhetically), nobody would have an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the sick part, command line exploits become the norm in competitive play. Then it filters down to the pub level adding an additional barrier for new players, especially players would like to eventually play on the competitive level.
New players have to learn the game, get good, and use all the currently unaddressed exploits.
<!--quoteo(post=2064608:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:18 PM:name=Ciro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ciro @ Jan 21 2013, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's the sick part, command line exploits become the norm in competitive play. Then it filters down to the pub level adding an additional barrier for new players, especially players would like to eventually play on the competitive level.
New players have to learn the game, get good, and use all the currently unaddressed exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you can do something with console commands, with the cvar sv_cheats set to "0", it's not an exploit.
<!--quoteo(post=2064598:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:44 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 21 2013, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agree with everything except the x-hair part, if UWE put in an option to change the x-hair (valve did similar when they locked the vanilla servers from custom mods) then I would agree.
But whilst it requires a technical knowledge that is not built into the game I see it as cheating. Simply because some but not everyone can do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What 'technical' knowledge is needed in order to change one's crosshair?
HOW TO: Crosshair 1. Visit Natural Selection 2's Workshop 2. Search "crosshair" 3. Install desired crosshair by left clicking the green subscribe button.
At least that's the way I did it..
And even if I wasn't able to change the default crosshairs, I wouldn't think I'd be at a disadvantage. From my experience, changes to your UI are mostly out of preference and often a perceived improvement in skill from changing something whimsical like a crosshair, is often times placebo. I've played around with heavily modded configs and the default one on Quake Live. I never had a noticeable difference in my performance. I'd put more emphasis on key bindings and mouse sensitivity in terms of things that'll have an affect on somebody's gameplay.
Comments
I also could take a ######load of coke so my reaction and Valor go through the roof. I'd run in your mainhive screaming and massacre you with 500 APM. Would be doping and in this sens ekind of unfair even though you can really do nothing about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called picking and choosing your battles. Most people as it is see crosshair customization as a good thing to begin with. It also happens to be something that's impossible to detect under any circumstances. Which means that even if you did decide to ban something which most people see as positive, you would never have a way of enforcing that ban because it's something that's impossible to prove.
It's rare for it to come up, but one of the worst things an online game can do is ban an activity that's undetectable. Most forms of prohibited behavior are almost always detectable via one of two means (usually both) - player behavior and (potentially) anti-cheat software. Custom crosshairs fall into a category that would never be detectable by either, putting them into a permanent honor system style status.
And in response to your strawman: Stuff like physical doping in video games actually isn't illegal or against the rules in the vast majority of cases, simply because there is no means of enforcement. Writing a rule about people not taking adderall before a competition means jack and ###### if you don't have the physical means of enforcing that rule. Which is why organizations generally don't write rules and restrictions unless they feel they have some plausible means of enforcing them.
1.) Player A who bound fire to left mouse button *and* movement on his scroll wheel
and
2.) Player B who's using a macro.
There's also no functional difference in gameplay effect from the two of them either. The base problem is that rapid click to fire is an awful mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. The pistol should either have a significantly slower refire rate, or it should have the option of hold down to fire - or both.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving a mouse wheel can effect your accuracy of hiting a distant perched lerk compared to aiming and holding down a macro'ed button. In any case a good lerk won't stay at the same place to long to get nailed. Also the macro and wheel are situational at best for a situational weapon. When i kill a couple of skulks with a LMG while a third one bares down on me, I make every shot count with my pistol. I could macro my mouse wheel to mouse1, but I don't. I still have a high rate of fire by using only mouse1 thx to my paintball days.
Changing anything in the game except what's already included in the options menu.
Modifying anything about the game is cheating.
All you cheating modders should be banned.
I don't even know why anyone is talking about macros. I don't know anyone that uses one.
And now please stop trying to troll or flamebait, or what ever it is you're trying to do. Repeating the same thing over and over again isn't going to make it any more valid...
Sorry, no.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.
True, but not all mods are cheating. This also has been discussed to hell and back during NS1. On these very same forums (thread :P)
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone has already spelled it out for you but you're choosing not to listen. This "cheating" or modifying the game for personal preference isn't black and white.
Your take on changing the color of the crosshair is absurd. There are tons of games that have this code built in to allow you to change the color to your liking. Are you saying that those games have built in cheats?
Just because UWE didn't put this option in makes changing it a cheat?
Do you not realize that UWE encourages people to make mods to their game? In your eyes this would be cheating because it isn't in the games code.
<u>Some examples:</u>
- <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - Custom Crosshairs:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> I am perfectly capable of aiming with the default crosshairs, but many of them bug me to no end so I choose to use the custom dot crosshairs. Using them only improves, rather than creates, my ability to aim.
- <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - FOV Slider:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Using the FOV slider to increase what I can see. I've found that I'm better if I reduce my resolution to less than my native one (1600v900 instead of 1920x108), but increase my FOV to match my area of view to match my 1920x1080 resolution. Since I'm not seeing anything more than I would on my native resolution, I'm not gaining an advantage (except with regards to increased performance).
- <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Pistol Script:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> While I can fire the pistol fairly fast, there is no way I'd be able to do so as fast as the pistol script would allow me. Using it would give me an ability I've previously not had.
- <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Brightly Textured Skulks:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Tracking skulks can be a pain, which makes painting them something like neon green so much easier. Just as I find alien vision to greatly increase my ability to locate and track marines, brightly textured skulks would do so for aliens.
The biggest problem with my approach is that its very individualized. I don't find the custom crosshairs to substantially improve my aim, but someone else might, making it a "cheat" in their eyes.
I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that the thought that we should stamp out cheating is pretty much a <i>given</i>.
First, however, you have to have a definition. Spell it out for me. Define it or this thread is just another waste of time pointing out the obvious.. cheating is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hang on.. i thought this thread was about the community view of what is considered cheating or not
There is no definition, we're trying to come up with it.
So using the 2 most frequently brought up examples in this thread... pistol script vs customized crosshairs, if the community believes that customized cross hair is ok and pistol script is not, then what do you think the definition should be?
My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with your view, for competitive play.
I partially agree for pub play. For pub play, everyone wont be on a top end rig. Some players need to use low resolution textures, increase brightness, low number of objects, etc.
I'm on the fence with model changing (Pub play). One side, it's fun! Other side, it can make targets more distinguishable, making thing unbalanced. I like it when pub servers have their own set of model swaps; like in Counter-strike.
Good topic. Good to know players aren't looking for green player models and bland maps for competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=2063085:date=Jan 19 2013, 01:03 AM:name=FrankerZ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FrankerZ @ Jan 19 2013, 01:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063085"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i saw a guy 50-1 the other day, everytime i would walk at him in straight line he would one shot with his shotgun perfect aimbot 360 noscope<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you use celerity?
<!--quoteo(post=2063663:date=Jan 20 2013, 05:22 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 20 2013, 05:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2063663"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank God NS2 is about so much more than aim and K/D, that there's much less incentive to aimbot than in your regular mainstream shooter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dunno about this. I know a single player with a wallhack, minimap player tracker, and aimbot could destroy a game in NS1; as alien (skulk) or marine. Hacks dramatically increase performance. For skulks, that's 75 for every bite, always on target. Perfect leap bites. Never being surprised, making it easy to control entire areas alone. For marines, just leave the auto target on and get ammo spammed. It can get ridiculous; hack stock marine > three-hive onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2064576:date=Jan 21 2013, 05:55 PM:name=Davil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Davil @ Jan 21 2013, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064576"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as crosshairs go I would say something that removes the mouth model from skulks or gorges or something that shows you the boundaries for damage from skulk bite would be a bit far.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Removing the mouth is extremely far. It was abused in NS1 and makes it a lot easier to track your target.
What's wrong with this exactly?
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.
Your take on changing the color of the crosshair is absurd. There are tons of games that have this code built in to allow you to change the color to your liking. Are you saying that those games have built in cheats?
Just because UWE didn't put this option in makes changing it a cheat?
Do you not realize that UWE encourages people to make mods to their game? In your eyes this would be cheating because it isn't in the games code.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, then I agree with everyone else on earth that cheating is bad. /thread right?
Oh wait... my entire contribution to the thread is predicated on the notion that cheating isn't defined in NS2 except by the people already in the habit of modifying the game from its basic design. So, on behalf of all the players out there playing the stock game, I'm here to point out that you are all cheating.
Unless you give me a definition of cheating that everyone agrees with, how are we supposed to answer the OP in an intelligent and reasoned way? Answer : we don't.
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However this isn't a symmetrical game like Quake, this is an asymmetrical game where a ranged team is facing off vs a melee team.
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.
Using cg_drawgun 0 was pretty much required for competitive play on all the Quake 3 engine games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the reason why I stopped playing it. The "best" players staying on top through setting exploits. Bunny hoping and fun weapons are the only thing that kept that game alive. It's so bad, it's partly accepted in competitive play. I would hate for NS2 to become that.
Quoted for emphasis : Mods are cheats under this definition. Its either a virgin install/game or its not.
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same statement could be applied to the weapons in Quake 3.
They obscure your view, and the muzzle flash temporarily blinds you.
I realise it's not a totally fair comparison, because of the asymmetry of the game, but my question still stands.
Why is this bad?
From a purely competitive standpoint, that is.
Wouldn't the best player/team win if everyone was doing this anyways?
<!--quoteo(post=2064584:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM:name=Ciro)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ciro @ Jan 21 2013, 06:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Part of the reason why I stopped playing it. The "best" players staying on top through setting exploits. Bunny hoping and fun weapons are the only thing that kept that game alive. It's so bad, it's partly accepted in competitive play. I would hate for NS2 to become that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunny hopping was/is an exploit.
Bunny hopping was only possible due to a bug in the Half-Life engine.
I'm of the opinion that if the mod is purely cosmetic/superficial in nature, it's not cheating.
Alternate crosshairs?
Okay.
Cute gorge eyes?
Sure.
White/Hot Pink/Lime Green Skulks/Gorges/Fades/Lerks/Onii?
Cheating.
Alternate models with giant spiky things that poke around corners?
Cheating.
Edit:
Either way, this thread is kinda pointless.
Play on unmodded servers, problem solved.
Eh.
Considering the "cooldown" between bites, having no teeth wouldn't make it spammier.
You'd just be able to see what's going on, instead of having your vision obscured by the inside of a mouth.
I think it'd end up increasing the pace of the game, which is fine for competition.
Faster paced = More skill required.(generally)
I'm talking from a competitive player's point of view.
I used to play in CAL-I in 2002.
Anything that can be done to give you an "edge" via in game commands is done.
This ends up with EVERYONE doing the same things, and leagues setting limits on what things you can change and to what degree.
Competitive play is not even in the same ballpark as a pub game.
I could see removing guns and teeth being detrimental to pub games, because it's probably only one guy doing it.
In a league/competitive game where this is the norm(theorhetically), nobody would have an unfair advantage.
<u>Some examples:</u>
- <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - Custom Crosshairs:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> I am perfectly capable of aiming with the default crosshairs, but many of them bug me to no end so I choose to use the custom dot crosshairs. Using them only improves, rather than creates, my ability to aim.
- <b><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->Not Cheating - FOV Slider:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Using the FOV slider to increase what I can see. I've found that I'm better if I reduce my resolution to less than my native one (1600v900 instead of 1920x108), but increase my FOV to match my area of view to match my 1920x1080 resolution. Since I'm not seeing anything more than I would on my native resolution, I'm not gaining an advantage (except with regards to increased performance).
- <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Pistol Script:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> While I can fire the pistol fairly fast, there is no way I'd be able to do so as fast as the pistol script would allow me. Using it would give me an ability I've previously not had.
- <b><!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->Cheating - Brightly Textured Skulks:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></b> Tracking skulks can be a pain, which makes painting them something like neon green so much easier. Just as I find alien vision to greatly increase my ability to locate and track marines, brightly textured skulks would do so for aliens.
The biggest problem with my approach is that its very individualized. I don't find the custom crosshairs to substantially improve my aim, but someone else might, making it a "cheat" in their eyes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agree with everything except the x-hair part, if UWE put in an option to change the x-hair (valve did similar when they locked the vanilla servers from custom mods) then I would agree.
But whilst it requires a technical knowledge that is not built into the game I see it as cheating. Simply because some but not everyone can do this.
Modding is a necessary part of any engine, but should not take precedence over players ability to enjoy the game the way UWE intended it to be played.
This is not about whether comps want to run with different rules but whether or not people should be able to find a game where the other players dont have unfair advantage.
Currently we dont have true vanilla servers, will they be more or less popular we can all theorise but unless we provide them its all meaningless arguing.
Offer 3 types of servers, True Vanilla, x-hair friendly and comp/mod friendly.
That way we let the people decide which type of servers they actually want.
Again this isn't a symmetrical game, where both teams are ranged and if you change a game element like this, it doesn't really matter because if every does it is has the same impact on any player. But in NS(2) it has a big impact on how the marines and the aliens play and how they engage combat.
In a league/competitive game where this is the norm(theorhetically), nobody would have an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's the sick part, command line exploits become the norm in competitive play. Then it filters down to the pub level adding an additional barrier for new players, especially players would like to eventually play on the competitive level.
New players have to learn the game, get good, and use all the currently unaddressed exploits.
New players have to learn the game, get good, and use all the currently unaddressed exploits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can do something with console commands, with the cvar sv_cheats set to "0", it's not an exploit.
But whilst it requires a technical knowledge that is not built into the game I see it as cheating. Simply because some but not everyone can do this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What 'technical' knowledge is needed in order to change one's crosshair?
HOW TO: Crosshair
1. Visit Natural Selection 2's Workshop
2. Search "crosshair"
3. Install desired crosshair by left clicking the green subscribe button.
At least that's the way I did it..
And even if I wasn't able to change the default crosshairs, I wouldn't think I'd be at a disadvantage. From my experience, changes to your UI are mostly out of preference and often a perceived improvement in skill from changing something whimsical like a crosshair, is often times placebo. I've played around with heavily modded configs and the default one on Quake Live. I never had a noticeable difference in my performance. I'd put more emphasis on key bindings and mouse sensitivity in terms of things that'll have an affect on somebody's gameplay.
What about this one? is this cheating?