<!--quoteo(post=2064655:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:30 PM:name=petit_fromage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petit_fromage @ Jan 22 2013, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What 'technical' knowledge is needed in order to change one's crosshair?
HOW TO: Crosshair 1. Visit Natural Selection 2's Workshop 2. Search "crosshair" 3. Install desired crosshair by left clicking the green subscribe button.
At least that's the way I did it..
And even if I wasn't able to change the default crosshairs, I wouldn't think I'd be at a disadvantage. From my experience, changes to your UI are mostly out of preference and often a perceived improvement in skill from changing something whimsical like a crosshair, is often times placebo. I've played around with heavily modded configs and the default one on Quake Live. I never had a noticeable difference in my performance. I'd put more emphasis on key bindings and mouse sensitivity in terms of things that'll have an affect on somebody's gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have encountered people who dont know how to ctrl c and ctrl v...so anything thats not straight out of the box is beyond their technical skills.
If there is not a toggle or slider then technical knowledge is assumed (as it requires them to know of, find and then install). Sure its not that hard for people with a basic understanding of how programming works (ie that files could be replaced) but not everyone know that.
A dot x-hair allows you to see more unobstructed...that gives you an advantage over another player who's view is obstructed by the larger x-hair.
No one wants to kill off the mod community, but if we are not careful there wont be a community at all as new players wont know which mods they are meant to have installed to be on a level playing field.
This is not what we want to happen, what we want is to allow people to access and learn to play on vanilla servers. As they get better they may want to mod and can go and find servers that allow some/all mods. Seems that this allows people to have both worlds available...an untainted one for purest and new players....and a mod one for those who want to push the boundaries a bit more.
<!--quoteo(post=2064701:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:03 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 22 2013, 05:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064701"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->WoW is full of mods, and they've been nothing but beneficial in that game.
Well, most of them. Some are completely pointless.
The point I'm trying to make is that the playerbase tells new plays what mods are good, and which aren't through gameplay.
On WoW, you found out from your guild. In NS2, I suppose the equivalent would either be your clan or the servers on your favourites.
If you don't have a "Favourite" server, there's a good chance you probably don't care if JoeAwesome667 has a crosshair mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So someone without a clan or a groups of favourite servers does not care if others have advantages they dont? Actually they are the new players who would care the most and be put off the easiest as a result of playing against someone with any advantage (given they have enough of a disadvantage picking up how to play).
People expect to buy a game and be able to play against someone who is playing the same game code....not someone who has modified part of the code (all be it replace sprites/decals etc).
I would think that protecting your future player base was paramount to a games longevity....if we dont want this game to fizzle out then we need to ensure its as accessable as possible ot new players, with as few disadvantages as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2064696:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:00 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 22 2013, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have encountered people who dont know how to ctrl c and ctrl v...so anything thats not straight out of the box is beyond their technical skills.
If there is not a toggle or slider then technical knowledge is assumed (as it requires them to know of, find and then install). Sure its not that hard for people with a basic understanding of how programming works (ie that files could be replaced) but not everyone know that.
A dot x-hair allows you to see more unobstructed...that gives you an advantage over another player who's view is obstructed by the larger x-hair.
No one wants to kill off the mod community, but if we are not careful there wont be a community at all as new players wont know which mods they are meant to have installed to be on a level playing field.
This is not what we want to happen, what we want is to allow people to access and learn to play on vanilla servers. As they get better they may want to mod and can go and find servers that allow some/all mods. Seems that this allows people to have both worlds available...an untainted one for purest and new players....and a mod one for those who want to push the boundaries a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All it takes is three simple steps. I'm sure they can get someone to guide them along. If they still cannot do that, I'm not sure a game like this is for them because other concepts of this game would clearly be lost on them.
You assume that the smaller the crosshair is, the bigger the advantage. If this were the case, every person would be using a dot crosshair, because why would you use an inferior crosshair right?
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg</a> (Quake Live, don't mind the low polygon count, you can crank graphics way down. I play like that, easier on the eyes.) <a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg</a> (TF2)
Some people feel that large crosshairs help them focus more on the target (note links above). You on the other hand think whatever is smallest is best. I myself prefer a small crosshair because I like having a very simple and clean UI. Others like I've shown, prefer their own styles. What am I getting at?
Smaller does not = better. Smaller crosshairs don't magically give you a passive +10% ability to aim. If it were the case, again, why wouldn't everyone use one?
<!--quoteo(post=2064720:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM:name=petit_fromage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petit_fromage @ Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All it takes is three simple steps. I'm sure they can get someone to guide them along. If they still cannot do that, I'm not sure a game like this is for them because other concepts of this game would clearly be lost on them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which for some people is more knowledge about the game than they posses. Sorry but modding a game takes some technical knowledge...even if it is just that it is possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2064720:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM:name=petit_fromage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petit_fromage @ Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You assume that the smaller the crosshair is, the bigger the advantage. If this were the case, every person would be using a dot crosshair, because why would you use an inferior crosshair right?
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg</a> (Quake Live, don't mind the low polygon count, you can crank graphics way down. I play like that, easier on the eyes.) <a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg</a> (TF2)
Some people feel that large crosshairs help them focus more on the target (note links above). You on the other hand think whatever is smallest is best. I myself prefer a small crosshair because I like having a very simple and clean UI. Others like I've shown, prefer their own styles. What am I getting at?
Smaller does not = better. Smaller crosshairs don't magically give you a passive +10% ability to aim. If it were the case, again, why wouldn't everyone use one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well by the time TF2 came about most of the x-hair sprites where locked down, I lost a green dot x-hair which I usd in DoD when that happened. I know I was not the only person who found this when playing on vanilla servers. The fact it obscured less on teh screen meant I could pin point people easier and not have them obscured by a semi transparent x-hair. Even it it just made me think I had an advantage it worked, as confidence and belief play a big part in any sport...e or otherwise.
There is an advantage as you are not obscuring so much of whats in your FOV...the reason the EXO has a bigger x-hair is to make it harder to see...the invasive HUD is part of the downside, being able to reduce any of this gives you an advantage. Be it 1% or 15% it is still advantages to be able to see more. Combine this with the hours of game craft we have and you start to see how it snowballs and add further advantage where it is least needed.
If we think it through the true vanilla option on rookie servers would make sense, after all it allows new players to learn in a vanilla setting...other can play with mods but there HAS to be a vanilla server setting that forces everything the same if there is to be a long term community. Otherwise we will simply scare new players off and never be able to replenish our ranks.
whatever a league decides to consider cheating shall be considered cheating, unless its completely impossible to enforce, then it might as well not be cheating.
if uwe wants to consider changing crosshair cheating cheating then they can try to enforce it into the game as best as they can or leave it to the server owners to come up witht their own anti cheat solution.
If a league wants to allow aimbotting, they can and then all of sudden aimbotting is not cheating anymore, unless uwe enforcement overules the league.
<!--quoteo(post=2064583:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:06 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 22 2013, 04:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The non existing crosshair for the Exo and the Onos are there as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. With a crosshair it is far to easy to aim with the Exo and inflict more damage on the aliens.
Oh, dat hypocritical attitude... You and Gorgeous continue to ignore the (multiple times voiced) fact, that <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Exo has no crosshair<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. And that adding a crosshair to the Exo is an unfair advantage. And with the same self suggestion you claim, that the "majority" is ok with custom crosshairs.
YOU are ok with custom crosshairs. But do not justify the use of such, because some self-defined "majority" is ok with it. It is nothing different between binding "Fire" to "mousewheel down" to get rid of an intentional disadvantage or getting an crosshair for the Exo. (also an intentional disadvantage)
Anyway... I agree with you, that this is a highly subjective topic. And I don't see a solution despite having the devs implement a technical solution to forbid exactly this changes. That they don't do it is either a sign of "not important enough to sacrifice the time for it" or "not a problem".
<!--quoteo(post=2064583:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:06 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 22 2013, 02:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Has this been verified? Sounds odd to me.
I remember a thread back in beta, where the anti-immersion people voiced, that this mouth cam is a pain in the onos while fighting against marines as skulk. The answer was, that it is in to increase the skill floor for the skulk. Sadly, I can't give you a link.
Btw. is your question related to you using a mod that makes the mouth transparent oder invisible?
<!--quoteo(post=2064788:date=Jan 22 2013, 10:12 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 22 2013, 10:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064788"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Has this been verified? Sounds odd to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Was raised as one of the issues that skulks faced in 1on1 combat, that the bite temporarily obscures your view, the fact that the skulks eyes are in the back of its throat and not ontop of its head (like the model is drawn) was raised. The feedback on it seemed to be that it served a balance purpose (those who tried to remove jaws found tracking easier as it was harder for the marine to move out of view. I am sure it was mentioned in one of the Q&A's.
The only reason i ever die is because others must have <b>better</b> custom crosshairs than me, so i root for removing the option to customize crosshairs.
Everybody in this thread knows how to customize their crosshair, still we are speaking about a group of ppl we dont really know exists that we assume is unable to figure out how to customize their crosshair with the easy system of steam workshop or manually.
We assume its too hard for them to figure out steam workshop on their own as well as to ask ingame, use forums, google in general. We also assume those ppl wont stick with ns2, because they will get slaughtered by ppl with better crosshairs - you are just unable to play ns2 on higher levels or improve at ns2 without custom crosshairs.
Yeah i agree UWE must take action now - ns2 is all about crosshairs! Its not enough to give us the choice to allow or deny the use serverside, as well as using an easy platform to manage such modifications. I think they should make a big fat warning sign whenever somebody starts ns2 for the first time - Beware of the custom crosshairs, you will get owned! And a 3hour long tutorial video on how to customize your crosshairs.
<!--quoteo(post=2064583:date=Jan 22 2013, 03:06 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 22 2013, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However this isn't a symmetrical game like Quake, this is an asymmetrical game where a ranged team is facing off vs a melee team.
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then do I have another treat for you! When exiting the com chair the rifle muzzle flash is gone, which I doubt is intended.
<!--quoteo(post=2064786:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:08 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 22 2013, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The non existing crosshair for the Exo and the Onos are there as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. With a crosshair it is far to easy to aim with the Exo and inflict more damage on the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Can you really not tell the difference? A static dot could be "modded" to your monitor with a felt tip pen. But not even with all the Tipp-Ex in the world would you be able to remove a view obstructing element. I never thought I would see such a lowbrow discussion here, what some of you think or don't think about so called cheating is absolutely astoundingly stupid.
I am saying that its totally irrelevant for pub play. It will be the last reason why ppl win or lose in pub games.
Where it matters the community takes it in their own hands and can figure out what is the best action. (which we did from random pug to tournament match)
PS: Im fine if ppl want that uwe removes the custom option from their pub servers, or trying to get private pub servers to disable them as well - but ppl should stop speaking globally for ns2. Also ppl are overestimating the advantage of crosshairs alone (which is basically the only thing that is globally allowed to modify) A good player will own the majority of random pub ppl even if you gave them a crosshair thats 2times the size of the standard one.
<!--quoteo(post=2064805:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:45 PM:name=lwf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lwf @ Jan 22 2013, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can you really not tell the difference? A static dot could be "modded" to your monitor with a felt tip pen. But not even with all the Tipp-Ex in the world would you be able to remove a view obstructing element. I never thought I would see such a lowbrow discussion here, what some of you think or don't think about so called cheating is absolutely astoundingly stupid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again: Neon skulks are as easy to implement as crosshairs. You can't make your decision of "what is cheating" by the ease of getting them.
<!--quoteo(post=2064807:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:48 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 22 2013, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am saying that its totally irrelevant for pub play. It will be the last reason why ppl win or lose in pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And while I agree, that such differences aren't that important in pub-gaming, I think they aren't irrelevant either. As others have stated, they can damage the community by giving already more experienced players the additional edge over new players. And scare them away even faster than the steep learning curve of NS2 does already.
Maybe we should put our effort into finding ways to make it more fair for less experienced players by making them play ppl on their level, instead of trying to remove something that you sooner or later will find out how to modify to your best liking, given that while nice looking a lot of the ns2 crosshairs are one of the worst i have ever see in games. You can believe that there are balance reasons behind certain crosshairs all you want - i am 100% sure, that they always had in mind to allow crosshair customization one way or the other. And workshop seems to be the best way given that even if uwe provided a certain set of xhairs to choose from they cant make everyone happy. With the freedom of workshop everybody can in theory get exactly what they want. (either by luck because there will be a lot bigger pool of xhairs to choose from, or by making their own/ or asking for somebody to do it for them)
I made 6 crosshairs for steam workshop, and most of them were requests by friends.
Scripts are okay until they get taken to the unfair level.
I don't mind people using scripts to buy weapons in CS but I do mind if they make one to do a 180 and center view their crosshair or to switch weapons to bypass reloading times.
I've seen games ruined because of scripting being taken to disgusting levels (The Specialists mod for HL1 is a great example).
<!--quoteo(post=2064809:date=Jan 22 2013, 08:55 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 22 2013, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And while I agree, that such differences aren't that important in pub-gaming, I think they aren't irrelevant either. As others have stated, they can damage the community by giving already more experienced players the additional edge over new players. And scare them away even faster than the steep learning curve of NS2 does already.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just wanna comment on this bit.
if you're talking crosshairs, there's no "additional edge" whatsoever. the default crosshairs were (sorry devs) literally made to be removed. they were so bad that i found myself playing with r_gui 0 and aiming so much better without them.
mods like neon skulks give "additional edge" for sure, but if you think about it, ns2 requires much more team play than other games, so "additional edge" sort of becomes "slight advantage" when we're talking about 1 pubstar making use of mods like that in a 8v8 game. my point is that it isn't really as dramatic as you make it out to be, but i also agree it's not entirely irrelevant as well.
just my opinion here, but i think part of the "additional edge" you're talking about is really due to the high skill ceiling compared to other games, rather than what abusive/exploitative mods people are using, which is why it sounded exaggerated to me.
<!--quoteo(post=2064706:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:15 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 21 2013, 11:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So someone without a clan or a groups of favourite servers does not care if others have advantages they dont?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ignorance is bliss.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually they are the new players who would care the most and be put off the easiest as a result of playing against someone with any advantage (given they have enough of a disadvantage picking up how to play).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If they are that green, they won't even know mods exist. Your point = moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People expect to buy a game and be able to play against someone who is playing the same game code....not someone who has modified part of the code (all be it replace sprites/decals etc).
I would think that protecting your future player base was paramount to a games longevity....if we dont want this game to fizzle out then we need to ensure its as accessable as possible ot new players, with as few disadvantages as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THE END IS NIGH! REPENT! REPENT!
Competitive CS didn't allow scripts or macros for anything other than buying equipment before the round started. At least that is how it was when I played back in the CAL days. That is a bad example unless you just want ready room scripts.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2064786:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:08 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 22 2013, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The non existing crosshair for the Exo and the Onos are there as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. With a crosshair it is far to easy to aim with the Exo and inflict more damage on the aliens.
Oh, dat hypocritical attitude... You and Gorgeous continue to ignore the (multiple times voiced) fact, that <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Exo has no crosshair<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. And that adding a crosshair to the Exo is an unfair advantage. And with the same self suggestion you claim, that the "majority" is ok with custom crosshairs.
YOU are ok with custom crosshairs. But do not justify the use of such, because some self-defined "majority" is ok with it. It is nothing different between binding "Fire" to "mousewheel down" to get rid of an intentional disadvantage or getting an crosshair for the Exo. (also an intentional disadvantage)
Anyway... I agree with you, that this is a highly subjective topic. And I don't see a solution despite having the devs implement a technical solution to forbid exactly this changes. That they don't do it is either a sign of "not important enough to sacrifice the time for it" or "not a problem".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where did I say anything about adding a crosshair to bite cam or the EXO... In fact my crosshair mods don't have one on there because by default, it is not on there either... And comparing it to a pistol macro that change how the pistol works in terms of going beyond a rate of fire of what is humanly possible, how is that even on the same level :D
Anything that makes it significantly easier to SEE or HEAR (as well as aimbots) is cheating in my opinion. Things like scripting are ok with me, you still need the reaction times and accuracy to use the pistol properly, scripting doesn't make it hit skulks on it's own.
EDIT: I should add that I think UI changes are fine (eg. crosshair and the motion tracking circle replacements, I guess HUD's too if they're out there).
<!--quoteo(post=2064847:date=Jan 22 2013, 04:49 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 22 2013, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064847"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did I say anything about adding a crosshair to bite cam or the EXO... In fact my crosshair mods don't have one on there because by default, it is not on there either... And comparing it to a pistol macro that change how the pistol works in terms of going beyond a rate of fire of what is humanly possible, how is that even on the same level :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh... so we are talking about 2 different things the whole time? The crosshairs I found on the workshop, all had one for exo and onos. And with them you get the same overall result: More DPS.
So, if adding a crosshair to exo is cheating because it helps you aim, is removing the crosshair from the LMG cheating because it lets you see more than you normally would? -_-
I'm going to chime in with my opinion here (Not addressing others' points or arguments).
I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
I think anyone who intentionally edits anything to give themselves an edge that vanilla players (Default installation users) do not have is cheating in spirit, if not 'according to the rules.'
The flat of it is that cheating is a mentality; you seek to give yourself an edge that people who are playing with you do not have. If this is the pursuit, you are attempting to 'cheat'. Some cheating is mild. Some is not. Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating. Is it some kind of terrible, awful, game-ruining cheating? No. Aimbots are. Wallhacks are. Obviously. Common sense applies.
But I think to argue that having advantages over others that are not included in the game interface and utilizing them to obtain a definitive 'edge', is pretty much the base definition of cheating itself. It's a matter of greys; some 'cheating' is justifiable under "The defaults are bad" or "I like the pretty gorge healing hearts"; some are never justifiable, such as aim assisting, seeing through walls.... etc.
Comments
HOW TO: Crosshair
1. Visit Natural Selection 2's Workshop
2. Search "crosshair"
3. Install desired crosshair by left clicking the green subscribe button.
At least that's the way I did it..
And even if I wasn't able to change the default crosshairs, I wouldn't think I'd be at a disadvantage. From my experience, changes to your UI are mostly out of preference and often a perceived improvement in skill from changing something whimsical like a crosshair, is often times placebo. I've played around with heavily modded configs and the default one on Quake Live. I never had a noticeable difference in my performance. I'd put more emphasis on key bindings and mouse sensitivity in terms of things that'll have an affect on somebody's gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have encountered people who dont know how to ctrl c and ctrl v...so anything thats not straight out of the box is beyond their technical skills.
If there is not a toggle or slider then technical knowledge is assumed (as it requires them to know of, find and then install).
Sure its not that hard for people with a basic understanding of how programming works (ie that files could be replaced) but not everyone know that.
A dot x-hair allows you to see more unobstructed...that gives you an advantage over another player who's view is obstructed by the larger x-hair.
No one wants to kill off the mod community, but if we are not careful there wont be a community at all as new players wont know which mods they are meant to have installed to be on a level playing field.
This is not what we want to happen, what we want is to allow people to access and learn to play on vanilla servers.
As they get better they may want to mod and can go and find servers that allow some/all mods.
Seems that this allows people to have both worlds available...an untainted one for purest and new players....and a mod one for those who want to push the boundaries a bit more.
What about this one? is this cheating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The heck would not use a x-hair!
Unless you prefer blu-tac on the screen.
Well, most of them.
Some are completely pointless.
The point I'm trying to make is that the playerbase tells new plays what mods are good, and which aren't through gameplay.
On WoW, you found out from your guild.
In NS2, I suppose the equivalent would either be your clan or the servers on your favourites.
If you don't have a "Favourite" server, there's a good chance you probably don't care if JoeAwesome667 has a crosshair mod.
Well, most of them.
Some are completely pointless.
The point I'm trying to make is that the playerbase tells new plays what mods are good, and which aren't through gameplay.
On WoW, you found out from your guild.
In NS2, I suppose the equivalent would either be your clan or the servers on your favourites.
If you don't have a "Favourite" server, there's a good chance you probably don't care if JoeAwesome667 has a crosshair mod.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So someone without a clan or a groups of favourite servers does not care if others have advantages they dont?
Actually they are the new players who would care the most and be put off the easiest as a result of playing against someone with any advantage (given they have enough of a disadvantage picking up how to play).
People expect to buy a game and be able to play against someone who is playing the same game code....not someone who has modified part of the code (all be it replace sprites/decals etc).
I would think that protecting your future player base was paramount to a games longevity....if we dont want this game to fizzle out then we need to ensure its as accessable as possible ot new players, with as few disadvantages as possible.
If there is not a toggle or slider then technical knowledge is assumed (as it requires them to know of, find and then install).
Sure its not that hard for people with a basic understanding of how programming works (ie that files could be replaced) but not everyone know that.
A dot x-hair allows you to see more unobstructed...that gives you an advantage over another player who's view is obstructed by the larger x-hair.
No one wants to kill off the mod community, but if we are not careful there wont be a community at all as new players wont know which mods they are meant to have installed to be on a level playing field.
This is not what we want to happen, what we want is to allow people to access and learn to play on vanilla servers.
As they get better they may want to mod and can go and find servers that allow some/all mods.
Seems that this allows people to have both worlds available...an untainted one for purest and new players....and a mod one for those who want to push the boundaries a bit more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All it takes is three simple steps. I'm sure they can get someone to guide them along. If they still cannot do that, I'm not sure a game like this is for them because other concepts of this game would clearly be lost on them.
You assume that the smaller the crosshair is, the bigger the advantage. If this were the case, every person would be using a dot crosshair, because why would you use an inferior crosshair right?
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg</a> (Quake Live, don't mind the low polygon count, you can crank graphics way down. I play like that, easier on the eyes.)
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg</a> (TF2)
Some people feel that large crosshairs help them focus more on the target (note links above). You on the other hand think whatever is smallest is best. I myself prefer a small crosshair because I like having a very simple and clean UI. Others like I've shown, prefer their own styles. What am I getting at?
Smaller does not = better. Smaller crosshairs don't magically give you a passive +10% ability to aim. If it were the case, again, why wouldn't everyone use one?
Define 'cute' ... bloomed fluro pink? 'Cute', but cheating ....
Which for some people is more knowledge about the game than they posses. Sorry but modding a game takes some technical knowledge...even if it is just that it is possible.
<!--quoteo(post=2064720:date=Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM:name=petit_fromage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (petit_fromage @ Jan 22 2013, 05:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You assume that the smaller the crosshair is, the bigger the advantage. If this were the case, every person would be using a dot crosshair, because why would you use an inferior crosshair right?
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2ptb045.jpg</a> (Quake Live, don't mind the low polygon count, you can crank graphics way down. I play like that, easier on the eyes.)
<a href="http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg" target="_blank">http://oi46.tinypic.com/2s1nqck.jpg</a> (TF2)
Some people feel that large crosshairs help them focus more on the target (note links above). You on the other hand think whatever is smallest is best. I myself prefer a small crosshair because I like having a very simple and clean UI. Others like I've shown, prefer their own styles. What am I getting at?
Smaller does not = better. Smaller crosshairs don't magically give you a passive +10% ability to aim. If it were the case, again, why wouldn't everyone use one?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well by the time TF2 came about most of the x-hair sprites where locked down, I lost a green dot x-hair which I usd in DoD when that happened.
I know I was not the only person who found this when playing on vanilla servers.
The fact it obscured less on teh screen meant I could pin point people easier and not have them obscured by a semi transparent x-hair.
Even it it just made me think I had an advantage it worked, as confidence and belief play a big part in any sport...e or otherwise.
There is an advantage as you are not obscuring so much of whats in your FOV...the reason the EXO has a bigger x-hair is to make it harder to see...the invasive HUD is part of the downside, being able to reduce any of this gives you an advantage.
Be it 1% or 15% it is still advantages to be able to see more. Combine this with the hours of game craft we have and you start to see how it snowballs and add further advantage where it is least needed.
If we think it through the true vanilla option on rookie servers would make sense, after all it allows new players to learn in a vanilla setting...other can play with mods but there HAS to be a vanilla server setting that forces everything the same if there is to be a long term community.
Otherwise we will simply scare new players off and never be able to replenish our ranks.
if uwe wants to consider changing crosshair cheating cheating then they can try to enforce it into the game as best as they can or leave it to the server owners to come up witht their own anti cheat solution.
If a league wants to allow aimbotting, they can and then all of sudden aimbotting is not cheating anymore, unless uwe enforcement overules the league.
The non existing crosshair for the Exo and the Onos are there as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. With a crosshair it is far to easy to aim with the Exo and inflict more damage on the aliens.
Oh, dat hypocritical attitude... You and Gorgeous continue to ignore the (multiple times voiced) fact, that <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Exo has no crosshair<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. And that adding a crosshair to the Exo is an unfair advantage. And with the same self suggestion you claim, that the "majority" is ok with custom crosshairs.
YOU are ok with custom crosshairs. But do not justify the use of such, because some self-defined "majority" is ok with it. It is nothing different between binding "Fire" to "mousewheel down" to get rid of an intentional disadvantage or getting an crosshair for the Exo. (also an intentional disadvantage)
Anyway... I agree with you, that this is a highly subjective topic. And I don't see a solution despite having the devs implement a technical solution to forbid exactly this changes. That they don't do it is either a sign of "not important enough to sacrifice the time for it" or "not a problem".
Has this been verified? Sounds odd to me.
Btw. is your question related to you using a mod that makes the mouth transparent oder invisible?
Was raised as one of the issues that skulks faced in 1on1 combat, that the bite temporarily obscures your view, the fact that the skulks eyes are in the back of its throat and not ontop of its head (like the model is drawn) was raised.
The feedback on it seemed to be that it served a balance purpose (those who tried to remove jaws found tracking easier as it was harder for the marine to move out of view.
I am sure it was mentioned in one of the Q&A's.
Everybody in this thread knows how to customize their crosshair, still we are speaking about a group of ppl we dont really know exists that we assume is unable to figure out how to customize their crosshair with the easy system of steam workshop or manually.
We assume its too hard for them to figure out steam workshop on their own as well as to ask ingame, use forums, google in general.
We also assume those ppl wont stick with ns2, because they will get slaughtered by ppl with better crosshairs - you are just unable to play ns2 on higher levels or improve at ns2 without custom crosshairs.
Yeah i agree UWE must take action now - ns2 is all about crosshairs! Its not enough to give us the choice to allow or deny the use serverside, as well as using an easy platform to manage such modifications. I think they should make a big fat warning sign whenever somebody starts ns2 for the first time - Beware of the custom crosshairs, you will get owned! And a 3hour long tutorial video on how to customize your crosshairs.
Or are you trying to say, that crosshairs are ok, because they are easy accessible via the workshop? Like the neon skulks...
The mouthcam for the Lerk and the Skulk are added as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. Without it it is far to easy to track and inflict the heavy damage on the marines.
On the marine side, the muzzle flash and the weapon model are both implemented as such to obscure attacks from up close and personal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then do I have another treat for you! When exiting the com chair the rifle muzzle flash is gone, which I doubt is intended.
<!--quoteo(post=2064786:date=Jan 22 2013, 01:08 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 22 2013, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The non existing crosshair for the Exo and the Onos are there as a balancing thing, not just for the looks. With a crosshair it is far to easy to aim with the Exo and inflict more damage on the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can you really not tell the difference? A static dot could be "modded" to your monitor with a felt tip pen. But not even with all the Tipp-Ex in the world would you be able to remove a view obstructing element. I never thought I would see such a lowbrow discussion here, what some of you think or don't think about so called cheating is absolutely astoundingly stupid.
Where it matters the community takes it in their own hands and can figure out what is the best action. (which we did from random pug to tournament match)
PS: Im fine if ppl want that uwe removes the custom option from their pub servers, or trying to get private pub servers to disable them as well - but ppl should stop speaking globally for ns2. Also ppl are overestimating the advantage of crosshairs alone (which is basically the only thing that is globally allowed to modify) A good player will own the majority of random pub ppl even if you gave them a crosshair thats 2times the size of the standard one.
Again: Neon skulks are as easy to implement as crosshairs. You can't make your decision of "what is cheating" by the ease of getting them.
<!--quoteo(post=2064807:date=Jan 22 2013, 02:48 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 22 2013, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064807"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am saying that its totally irrelevant for pub play. It will be the last reason why ppl win or lose in pub games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And while I agree, that such differences aren't that important in pub-gaming, I think they aren't irrelevant either. As others have stated, they can damage the community by giving already more experienced players the additional edge over new players. And scare them away even faster than the steep learning curve of NS2 does already.
I made 6 crosshairs for steam workshop, and most of them were requests by friends.
I don't mind people using scripts to buy weapons in CS but I do mind if they make one to do a 180 and center view their crosshair or to switch weapons to bypass reloading times.
I've seen games ruined because of scripting being taken to disgusting levels (The Specialists mod for HL1 is a great example).
just wanna comment on this bit.
if you're talking crosshairs, there's no "additional edge" whatsoever. the default crosshairs were (sorry devs) literally made to be removed. they were so bad that i found myself playing with r_gui 0 and aiming so much better without them.
mods like neon skulks give "additional edge" for sure, but if you think about it, ns2 requires much more team play than other games, so "additional edge" sort of becomes "slight advantage" when we're talking about 1 pubstar making use of mods like that in a 8v8 game. my point is that it isn't really as dramatic as you make it out to be, but i also agree it's not entirely irrelevant as well.
just my opinion here, but i think part of the "additional edge" you're talking about is really due to the high skill ceiling compared to other games, rather than what abusive/exploitative mods people are using, which is why it sounded exaggerated to me.
"Any sufficiently advanced [FPS Skill] is indistinguishable from [Cheating]."
With apologies to Arthur C. Clarke.
Ignorance is bliss.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually they are the new players who would care the most and be put off the easiest as a result of playing against someone with any advantage (given they have enough of a disadvantage picking up how to play).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they are that green, they won't even know mods exist.
Your point = moot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People expect to buy a game and be able to play against someone who is playing the same game code....not someone who has modified part of the code (all be it replace sprites/decals etc).
I would think that protecting your future player base was paramount to a games longevity....if we dont want this game to fizzle out then we need to ensure its as accessable as possible ot new players, with as few disadvantages as possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THE END IS NIGH!
REPENT!
REPENT!
Oh, dat hypocritical attitude... You and Gorgeous continue to ignore the (multiple times voiced) fact, that <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->the Exo has no crosshair<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. And that adding a crosshair to the Exo is an unfair advantage. And with the same self suggestion you claim, that the "majority" is ok with custom crosshairs.
YOU are ok with custom crosshairs. But do not justify the use of such, because some self-defined "majority" is ok with it. It is nothing different between binding "Fire" to "mousewheel down" to get rid of an intentional disadvantage or getting an crosshair for the Exo. (also an intentional disadvantage)
Anyway... I agree with you, that this is a highly subjective topic. And I don't see a solution despite having the devs implement a technical solution to forbid exactly this changes. That they don't do it is either a sign of "not important enough to sacrifice the time for it" or "not a problem".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did I say anything about adding a crosshair to bite cam or the EXO... In fact my crosshair mods don't have one on there because by default, it is not on there either... And comparing it to a pistol macro that change how the pistol works in terms of going beyond a rate of fire of what is humanly possible, how is that even on the same level :D
EDIT: I should add that I think UI changes are fine (eg. crosshair and the motion tracking circle replacements, I guess HUD's too if they're out there).
Oh... so we are talking about 2 different things the whole time? The crosshairs I found on the workshop, all had one for exo and onos. And with them you get the same overall result: More DPS.
I play with Vanilla settings on the highest graphics settings. Full bloom, default crosshairs, zero mods or changes to any configs.
I think anyone who intentionally edits anything to give themselves an edge that vanilla players (Default installation users) do not have is cheating in spirit, if not 'according to the rules.'
The flat of it is that cheating is a mentality; you seek to give yourself an edge that people who are playing with you do not have. If this is the pursuit, you are attempting to 'cheat'. Some cheating is mild. Some is not. Crosshair editing? Not so bad. I still view it, logically, as cheating. Is it some kind of terrible, awful, game-ruining cheating? No. Aimbots are. Wallhacks are. Obviously. Common sense applies.
But I think to argue that having advantages over others that are not included in the game interface and utilizing them to obtain a definitive 'edge', is pretty much the base definition of cheating itself. It's a matter of greys; some 'cheating' is justifiable under "The defaults are bad" or "I like the pretty gorge healing hearts"; some are never justifiable, such as aim assisting, seeing through walls.... etc.
-Colt