I think the best way for NS2 to define cheating or not is to implement easier ways to change it in game.
Changing crosshairs (for example) should be an in game option.
In NS1, I personally liked using the NS 2.0 crosshairs over the ones that came with NS3.0 (or was it 3.0, vs the ones in 3.2? I forgot).
Changing the crosshairs in NS1 just required a console command change.
Anyway, lets take StarCraft for example.
In StarCraft 1 (Brood War), changing your hotkeys was illegal.
The reason was because there was no way to change them in game, it wasn't supported. Players had to learn how to use weird hard to reach hot keys like "P" for Pylon.
So, changing hotkeys in SC1 was illegal because there was no way to do it without third party programs.
In both WC3 and SC2, changing hotkeys were legal because there were built in ways to change it.
For WC3, you had to edit a text file (which Blizzard provided and allowed you to do).
In SC2, changing hot keys can be done in game really easily.
There are several types of hot key lay outs in SC2 that are far superior to all the default ones SC2 comes with. "<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878" target="_blank">TheCore</a>" and "DarkGrid" (which came before TheCore has been a bit obsoleted now) are good examples .
Overall, the simplest way of defining cheats vs no cheats is for UWE to support popular (but not too game changing) mods like changing crosshairs (which was supported in NS1) while forbidding anything else.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To summarize, if anyone goes into 'try hard' mode, they will turn off all the fancy graphical options that a game offers if they in any way interfere with their ability to perform in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of this, this is sort of the case in SC2 as well. The default hotkeys are vastly inferior to the modded ones as TheCore (I mentioned) above. TheCore requires a really weird and unusual setup (you have to tilt your keyboard, and the hotkeys are all on the right side instead of the left side like what most games do).
However with competitive games, using things provided in game to provide an advantage is part of the "meta" or "skill" (as someone said earlier in a post).
Most pro players actually play the game on the lowest possible settings in SC2 (to reduce clutter and potential distractions). If you see someone streaming the game, you see them play on the lowest settings (usually).
(However graphical settings in SC2 don't give that much advantage due to the nature of RTS.)
Again this is for things that are supported and can be changed in game easily.
In SC2, changing hot keys is legal. And TheCore hotkey settings is vastly superior to all the default ones by miles.
As for graphical settings that hinder things? Things like first person view models are definitely intended and can't be removed in game. However, things that can be tone down easily like fog effects, etc that may hinder your ability to see enemies aren't intended to be things that affect gameplay and there just for the visuals.
It's up to the game developer to make sure things like fog, bloom, etc aren't too over the top so that one can play with the settings they like and not be as hindered by it.
It's really tough for an FPS (compared to an RTS, where toning down all the graphics doesn't make that much of a difference).
Anyway, overall though, I'd say anything in game is and should be allowed (like turning down all graphical settings, etc). (Again, it's up to UWE to make sure things like fog effects, etc aren't done too overboard that they vastly affect your playing field.)
<!--quoteo(post=2066162:date=Jan 25 2013, 02:44 AM:name=Gorginator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorginator @ Jan 25 2013, 02:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the best way for NS2 to define cheating or not is to implement easier ways to change it in game.
Changing crosshairs (for example) should be an in game option.
In NS1, I personally liked using the NS 2.0 crosshairs over the ones that came with NS3.0 (or was it 3.0, vs the ones in 3.2? I forgot).
Changing the crosshairs in NS1 just required a console command change.
Anyway, lets take StarCraft for example.
In StarCraft 1 (Brood War), changing your hotkeys was illegal.
The reason was because there was no way to change them in game, it wasn't supported. Players had to learn how to use weird hard to reach hot keys like "P" for Pylon.
So, changing hotkeys in SC1 was illegal because there was no way to do it without third party programs.
In both WC3 and SC2, changing hotkeys were legal because there were built in ways to change it.
For WC3, you had to edit a text file (which Blizzard provided and allowed you to do).
In SC2, changing hot keys can be done in game really easily.
There are several types of hot key lay outs in SC2 that are far superior to all the default ones SC2 comes with. "<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878" target="_blank">TheCore</a>" and "DarkGrid" (which came before TheCore has been a bit obsoleted now) are good examples .
Overall, the simplest way of defining cheats vs no cheats is for UWE to support popular (but not too game changing) mods like changing crosshairs (which was supported in NS1) while forbidding anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good post, but I'm going to nit-pick just a bit on the last part of it because it's important to the thread at hand.
Using Blizzard as an example... their stock maps are almost all rejected by tournaments that matter (no gold expansions for example). Blizzard has a core product that they have balanced around their customer base, not the comp/pro crowd. Tournament operators use modified (or unique) maps to clean up some of the blizzard designed mess, and those become standard for "pro" play. In public (ladder) matches, you better learn to use the blizzard maps though, because you're going to be seeing them exclusively.
The same goes for NS2, since this is what we're talking about. NS2 doesn't have a "pro" circuit out there to smooth out the rough edges. And the OP is targeted at the general community which encompass a majority of pub players using default installs of the game.
This goes back to what FrankerZ said (and, if I might be so humble, what I said in my first post in this thread, though less concise) about who authoritatively defines what is and is not considered legal with regard to the game at hand.
Just to put a bow on this : Blizzard might say that a map as it's found on ladder is fine, but if IPL says it is not, you won't see it on IPL but you'll still have to play it on ladder. The only thing that matters is if you're playing in the IPL or on ladder. No one has to worry that someone out there has a custom version of that map that departs from the core blizzard design when playing on ladder... and if you're playing in the IPL you will be stuck with what the IPL gives you regardless of what blizzard thinks about it unless Blizzard goes to some extreme to block it's inclusion in the basic game set.
The problem is nobody can unilaterally draw a line in the sand for PC games and say THIS is the stock settings.
I could argue that the devs have put the everything low options into the games, thus they must have intended for those settings to be within the stock "fair" settings.
You could then easily extend this argument to the steam workshop. The dev's have allowed the game engine to be easily modded by the steam workshop, thus every mod used in the steam workshop is also intended to be within the stock settings.
Using this line of logic the only "cheating" would come from 3rd party programs, hardware - macro keyboards etc.
PC games depend on institutions such as the NSL to draw a line in the sand for this purpse and they have done so, and as the only major institution within the NS2 environment, it makes sense for the community accept their definitions of what is fair.
<!--quoteo(post=2066171:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:32 AM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 25 2013, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is nobody can unilaterally draw a line in the sand for PC games and say THIS is the stock settings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly true, but close enough. I mean, we could just say that what ever installs on your computer at first start up equals "stock" settings... but that's just unrealistic and completely unenforceable (and still doesn't account for variables like hardware).
The idea is that someone has to define legal boundaries for the game before we can even have a discussion about what is cheating. In the absence of an official UWE ruling (perhaps enforced to some degree through the code of the game) on any given subject, we can only apply our own personal filters to determine where we stand with regard to what the community might consider cheating on any given subject.
For the pub-community, all we have right now are the hard-coded limitations imposed on us via the NS2 game and what is allowed via mods. Just beyond that we have what is possible via scripting and third party software with regard to how it interacts with the hard coded "rules" of the game.
For comps there's always going to be the dev enforced "rules" for a base-line followed by the tournament specific rules.
There will always be some basic "common sense rules" that apply though. Aim-bots and wall hacks will always be considered unequivocal cheats because of the impact they have on the broadest subsection of the community. Even games like Darklight, which embrace the horror by just going ahead and including wall-hacks into the basic features of the game won't accept someone using the built-in wall hack beyond it's designed limitations without calling it a cheat. But in the end these are still matters of debate as to the actual impact they have on regular play given the inclusion of a wall hack in the core mechanics.
It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that the majority of players in any given game would consider an aim-bot a clear cheat. But that's an uninteresting extreme of the discussion at hand. The really interesting discussion kicks in where people start disagreeing about what constitutes a departure from "legal" rules. After all, we are not talking about "house rules" which can be what ever all parties are aware of and agree to in advance... but rather what differentiates the ignorant from the informed about what is allowable in any given "pub" game beyond the basic install that defines the default game as designed by UWE.
I think this whole discussion is absurd. "Cheating" is when you modify the game files or have a program running that gives you an advantage over other players. NS2 is a game that encourages modification, but there is such a fine line between modification and cheating that nobody will ever agree on where that line sits.
So the only line that can possibly be drawn is "modified" or "vanilla" . The servers should be broken down into those two groups. You can join a "vanilla" server that enforces all game files are standard, or join a "mods allowed" server that lets you have pink fking skulks and pistol scripts to fire 10 shots in .01 seconds..
Personally I prefer the pure vanilla form of gaming. All players on equal grounds, no advantages but the ones you were born with. And I wish there were servers I could join where that was enforced on all players, so that when I'm hiding in a perfect spot as a skulk, I will go unseen as I should , rather than getting picked off by some ###### who has a mod that makes me glow bright pink..
<!--quoteo(post=2066193:date=Jan 25 2013, 12:09 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Jan 25 2013, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->hm so how does one decide what cross hair one would like to use?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As in yourself personally? Just download a few and try `em out. For myself, I just use the standard one, does me fine.
Cheating: Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.
One thing you need to define to find out what would class as cheating is the classification of an advantage, and how much is acceptable. I find this is most easily broken down into what makes a placebo advantage, over an actual advantage.
Placebo advantages would include such things as; crosshair customization, UI changes such as changing the colour of the HP bar (but not anything that changes the default to an extreme, such as removing the skulk jaws, or adding a crosshair for the exo.) and minor custom skins, such that they do not change in any way the advantages provided with them, for example the capacity for a skulk to hide in the darkness.
The changes that gain an actual advantage, against the balance and spirit of the game (another debatable quality) are ones such as; A change to the UI, that gains you extra screen room, or a help to aiming where you normally do not gain one. The changing of a skin to provide an advantage, such as removing the ability for an alien to hide due to fluorescent skin, or modified sounds so that normally quiet ones, are now loud (Similar to changing the spy's uncloaking noise in TF2). Adding in third party modifications that enable a program to do thinking for you, such as Aim-botting. Changing the Textures of walls, items and the such, so that you can view more than the norm. Making a macro to enable something that would otherwise be unobtainable by normal human standards, such as firing a weapon several times faster than the standard.
This brings into question what defines the limit for modifications. All of these things are changes to the core game, and so are defined by some as cheating. As I said, the difference in between what I find to be cheating, and what I do not, is whether it only applies a placebo effect, or an actual advantage. While the placebo effect does in many cases increase the capacity of an individual to score better, shoot more accurately and die less often, it is not an advantage that goes against the spirit of playing fairly, as this is also attainable by having a fun time, being relaxed rather than stressed, and other traits of the brain.
Changing things so that you have a definable advantage, are what I consider cheating.
tl;dr Changing the crosshair does not affect how you play. Changing models to bright pink affects how you play.
<!--quoteo(post=2066200:date=Jan 25 2013, 02:30 PM:name=RockyMarc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RockyMarc @ Jan 25 2013, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As in yourself personally? Just download a few and try `em out. For myself, I just use the standard one, does me fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ditto, the aliens dont have a x-hair (with 1 or two exceptions (ie parasite) and exo's have a stupidly big one that obscures your vision. This is part of the games design, using x-hairs other than default is going to give you an advantage (otherwise why do you use it (honestly)?).
The way I look at it this is like the BF series, the x-hairs are part of what makes up part of the handicap of the weapon. UWE did not make the EXO x-hair large by accident (as they would have corrected it by now if that was the case), its clearly mean to be a negative of the upgrade.
Skulks have teeth in the way (which is a weapon model) again by design its meant to obscure vision and make it harder to track marines.
What this means is that there are different levels of cheating, accepted cheating and condemned cheating. To a purest vanilla is vanilla no changes to anything thats not a built in control slider/drop down. Then you get into the "accepted cheating" which is mods to weapons skins, models and hud/x-hairs (game dependant (ie tanks in BF3)). Lastly the "condemned cheating" aimbots, white walls, wallhacks, ESP, wobble-bots etc which there is no disputing is cheating.
What we need to do is make the rookie servers forced Vanilla for the purests, then you can have normal servers that can chose to allow x-hairs and hud changes. This way everyone can play the way they want, those new to the game are told to play on rookie (green) servers where they will find the most consitant game experience. Once they feel they are no longer a rookie or want to mod their game they can go play on other servers. As long as UWE keep at least 1 rookie server up out of their official servers this should give the new players a better experience and not have them playing against someone who has neon skulks.
<!--quoteo(post=2065021:date=Jan 22 2013, 12:25 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 22 2013, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I think to argue that having advantages over others that are not included in the game interface and utilizing them to obtain a definitive 'edge', is pretty much the base definition of cheating itself. It's a matter of greys; some 'cheating' is justifiable under "The defaults are bad" or "I like the pretty gorge healing hearts"; some are never justifiable, such as aim assisting, seeing through walls.... etc.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I play with a gaming headset, this gives me an advantage over people who are playing with speakers(Non-surround sound).
<!--quoteo(post=2066229:date=Jan 24 2013, 10:39 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 24 2013, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I play with a gaming headset, this gives me an advantage over people who are playing with speakers(Non-surround sound).
Am I a cheater?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The answer is no, having a better hardware is no kind of cheat or hack what so ever. However, if one was to use their better hardware to enable scripts and macros for in-game advantages then yes.
If someone complains that other players are using cheats and hacks because they are using the games recommended hardware settings but they themselves are only using the games minimal hardware settings then whose fault is that?
Many times players that are using scripts and macros are easier to spot than players might think. One way is to look at how a player is moving or if they are an average player but when they go a certain life form or team they become an unstoppable tank. If a player goes fade with a score of 150-2 (combat) but can’t kill anything with any other life form then it might raise an eyebrow or two.
<!--quoteo(post=2066355:date=Jan 25 2013, 06:44 AM:name=Know pain)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Know pain @ Jan 25 2013, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The answer is no, having a better hardware is no kind of cheat or hack what so ever. However, if one was to use their better hardware to enable scripts and macros for in-game advantages then yes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was a rhetorical question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone complains that other players are using cheats and hacks because they are using the games recommended hardware settings but they themselves are only using the games minimal hardware settings then whose fault is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No one is at fault in that scenario, but the person complaining is an idiot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many times players that are using scripts and macros are easier to spot than players might think. One way is to look at how a player is moving or if they are an average player but when they go a certain life form or team they become an unstoppable tank. If a player goes fade with a score of 150-2 (combat) but can’t kill anything with any other life form then it might raise an eyebrow or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm an awful skulk, I can't lerk, and I die all the time as a gorge.
Give me a fade(With, or without blink), and I kick ass. By your definition, I'm a cheater.
Anything outside a basic script is borderline, ultrabright models and whitewalls and all that garbage do not magically change a scrub into someone good, it will give them an edge, but seriously, who cares. Play on an administrated server, why get angry when someone is cheating, they're doing it to troll you, and you are falling for it by stroking your rageboner.
If someone cheats, tell the admin, no admin? leave the server. Why deal with it to begin with?
<!--quoteo(post=2066157:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find fascinating is the ability of people to justify their personal departures from that paradigm as "minor" without grasping the concept that ANY departure from the paradigm constitutes a <b>departure </b>(ie. cheating). The magnitude isn't relevant at all... its the infraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll reply with a quote from you: <!--quoteo(post=2066157:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow... just, wow.
I mean, ... no... just wow!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, instead of a silly dismissing reply, I'll elaborate, concisely, too, cuz I can:
You're thinking extremely black and white. You see NO difference whatsoever between cheating and having an edge. Using your logic you will be able to draw ANYTHING into the category of cheating, starting from the shape of the chair you're sitting on.
There are some basic rules you're stepping over. Without them, we might as well raise our hands and go "LALALALAA LALALALA". Because words, like cheating, just become meaningless.
Changing crosshairs BARELY, BARELY enters the category of "having an edge", from "vanilla". It is not EVEN NEAR "cheating". There's no opinioning or hairsplitting to be done. The whole notion is just plain stupid.
End of. Look how prettily concise. Please strive for the same courtesy.
i would just like to make it clear that i will be aimbotting, wallhacking, and speedhacking in ns2 because my computer sucks so i will be balancing out the unfair advantage players w/ better pcs have
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2066613:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:35 PM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 25 2013, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't remember the guys name that made those little comics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Retales
<!--quoteo(post=2066444:date=Jan 25 2013, 09:06 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 25 2013, 09:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll reply with a quote from you:
Nah, instead of a silly dismissing reply, I'll elaborate, concisely, too, cuz I can:
You're thinking extremely black and white. You see NO difference whatsoever between cheating and having an edge. Using your logic you will be able to draw ANYTHING into the category of cheating, starting from the shape of the chair you're sitting on.
There are some basic rules you're stepping over. Without them, we might as well raise our hands and go "LALALALAA LALALALA". Because words, like cheating, just become meaningless.
Changing crosshairs BARELY, BARELY enters the category of "having an edge", from "vanilla". It is not EVEN NEAR "cheating". There's no opinioning or hairsplitting to be done. The whole notion is just plain stupid.
End of. Look how prettily concise. Please strive for the same courtesy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Add in the fact that UWE <i>intended</i> for this game to be moddable(There's a menu option called "Mods"), which pretty much shuts down his and everyone else's arguments against mods.
<!--quoteo(post=2066627:date=Jan 25 2013, 01:48 PM:name=Frothybeverage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frothybeverage @ Jan 25 2013, 01:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add in the fact that UWE <i>intended</i> for this game to be moddable(There's a menu option called "Mods"), which pretty much shuts down his and everyone else's arguments against mods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except that mods run the gambit from custom crosshairs (Fairly harmless) to invisible walls, detailed omniscient maps, and phosphorescent dynamic models.
You're clearly not interested in an actual discourse (As per your initial post, which was a facetious rhetorical statement rather than anything legitimate), but I'd like you to at least consider the intent of my original posts on the subject; the matter is a matter of greys, not black-and-white, as per your own definitions of UWE's involvement (or lack thereof) in supporting mods, but vaguely disapproving of 'cheating'.
As I said before; it is the *spirit* In which the modification is pursued... not so much the modification itself. There is a post a couple pages back that elaborates effectively on the whole subject;
<!--quoteo(post=2066157:date=Jan 24 2013, 06:40 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 24 2013, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find fascinating is the ability of people to justify their personal departures from that paradigm as "minor" without grasping the concept that ANY departure from the paradigm constitutes a <b>departure </b>(ie. cheating). The magnitude isn't relevant at all... its the infraction. All the hand wringing and spinning doesn't change where you stand once you take it upon yourself to depart from the intended design of the game for your personal preference. Where the hair splitting begins is where your personal comfort factor ends... everyone is, subjectively, going to arrive at a different point of departure on this given the open design of NS2, specifically.
The authoritative tone taken by admitted cheaters on how their particular cheats <i>don't count</i> is side-splittingly hilarious in its intellectual dishonesty.
Maybe someone here could read this and maybe sit and think about it for 5 minutes before bothering to post again. Well said sir!
Wont help though, I think some folks around here are a bit hung up on the idea that they <u>are </u>cheating... it doesn't mesh with their self image I guess. It just can't be true, right? It's only [insert my cheat here] and <i>everyone </i>[citation needed] says it's cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even saying crosshairs should be banned or frowned upon. I'm saying that it is the pursuit of things that others do not have for your gain (In a settings-type-environment, the hardware argument is an unavoidable reality of the computing world, so let's not mince rhetorical concepts) and to obtain an edge, is the spirit of cheating. It can begin harmlessly enough, custom crosshairs and gorge hearts, but eventually the mindset opens itself to aim-assist, half-visible walls, and everything else under the pretentious argument that "UWE SUPPORTS MODS" and "Everyone else could do it, too".
Ultimately, those who decide what "Cheating" is are those who run the community. Server administrators, the game company, tournament operators and sponsors. These are the only voices that hold the authority to enforce a policy. My argument runs more along the lines of attempting to convey to people that you should play with a purist view, because it grants merit to your victories and skill, whereas utilizing 'edge granting' mods and 'borderline cheating' does nothing but strip away that accomplishment, because everyone including yourself is aware that you've got a definitive edge, and it isn't actually superior ability or game-wisdom you're demonstrating.
Much love. Will gladly reply to non-facetious, non-directly-flamey-trolly-kiddos.
<!--quoteo(post=2066722:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My argument runs more along the lines of attempting to convey to people that...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jesus H. Christ, am I the only who thinks succinct speech is a virtue...
<!--quoteo(post=2066722:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you should play with a purist view, because it grants merit to your victories and skill, whereas utilizing 'edge granting' mods and 'borderline cheating' does nothing but strip away that accomplishment, because everyone including yourself is aware that you've got a definitive edge, and it isn't actually superior ability or game-wisdom you're demonstrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you agree with Troubleshooter - there's no such thing as an edge, everything but vanilla is cheating?
That.
Doesn't.
Work.
Why? Because there will ALWAYS be someone with an edge. There will always be things someone benefits from, and because of that, you must YIELD to their existence and deal with them. You can't say they're cheating because you can't find the one whose NOT "cheating".
Or maybe you think you can? Okay, how about, you tell me the kind of crosshair that isn't cheating? "The vanilla one" -you say? I disagree. You can turn off the crosshair, thus removing the obtrusive crosshair entirely, giving you an edge. There's 2 to choose from, which is the cheating one? No crosshair or crosshair? Both are vanilla.
You don't even know what kind of a crosshair gives you an edge. You're still going to take out the pitchfork and burn someone, though.
EDIT: I've realized I was being trolled and therefore deleted the content of this response. Not worth my time to discuss with those whose intent is not discussion, but outright, redundant hostility and self-justification.
<!--quoteo(post=2066751:date=Jan 25 2013, 05:48 PM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 25 2013, 05:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: I've realized I was being trolled and therefore deleted the content of this response. Not worth my time to discuss with those whose intent is not discussion, but outright, redundant hostility and self-justification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Im glad that colt and whats-his-###### aren't the people that decide what cheating is. My custom crosshair would have me hanging from a rope by now.
<!--quoteo(post=2066751:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:48 AM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 26 2013, 01:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->EDIT: I've realized I was being trolled and therefore deleted the content of this response. Not worth my time to discuss with those whose intent is not discussion, but outright, redundant hostility and self-justification.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's plenty of question marks in my reply, take your pick before calling out self-justification. As for the "hostility", feel free to contact a moderator, although seeing as they're posting in this thread, we're probably flying well under the radar...
Worth your time? <!--quoteo(post=2066738:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jesus H. Christ, am I the only who thinks succinct speech is a virtue...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Start there, and you can afford finishing conversations.
Comments
Changing crosshairs (for example) should be an in game option.
In NS1, I personally liked using the NS 2.0 crosshairs over the ones that came with NS3.0 (or was it 3.0, vs the ones in 3.2? I forgot).
Changing the crosshairs in NS1 just required a console command change.
Anyway, lets take StarCraft for example.
In StarCraft 1 (Brood War), changing your hotkeys was illegal.
The reason was because there was no way to change them in game, it wasn't supported. Players had to learn how to use weird hard to reach hot keys like "P" for Pylon.
So, changing hotkeys in SC1 was illegal because there was no way to do it without third party programs.
In both WC3 and SC2, changing hotkeys were legal because there were built in ways to change it.
For WC3, you had to edit a text file (which Blizzard provided and allowed you to do).
In SC2, changing hot keys can be done in game really easily.
There are several types of hot key lay outs in SC2 that are far superior to all the default ones SC2 comes with. "<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878" target="_blank">TheCore</a>" and "DarkGrid" (which came before TheCore has been a bit obsoleted now) are good examples .
Overall, the simplest way of defining cheats vs no cheats is for UWE to support popular (but not too game changing) mods like changing crosshairs (which was supported in NS1) while forbidding anything else.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To summarize, if anyone goes into 'try hard' mode, they will turn off all the fancy graphical options that a game offers if they in any way interfere with their ability to perform in game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of this, this is sort of the case in SC2 as well. The default hotkeys are vastly inferior to the modded ones as TheCore (I mentioned) above. TheCore requires a really weird and unusual setup (you have to tilt your keyboard, and the hotkeys are all on the right side instead of the left side like what most games do).
However with competitive games, using things provided in game to provide an advantage is part of the "meta" or "skill" (as someone said earlier in a post).
Most pro players actually play the game on the lowest possible settings in SC2 (to reduce clutter and potential distractions). If you see someone streaming the game, you see them play on the lowest settings (usually).
(However graphical settings in SC2 don't give that much advantage due to the nature of RTS.)
Again this is for things that are supported and can be changed in game easily.
In SC2, changing hot keys is legal. And TheCore hotkey settings is vastly superior to all the default ones by miles.
As for graphical settings that hinder things? Things like first person view models are definitely intended and can't be removed in game. However, things that can be tone down easily like fog effects, etc that may hinder your ability to see enemies aren't intended to be things that affect gameplay and there just for the visuals.
It's up to the game developer to make sure things like fog, bloom, etc aren't too over the top so that one can play with the settings they like and not be as hindered by it.
It's really tough for an FPS (compared to an RTS, where toning down all the graphics doesn't make that much of a difference).
Anyway, overall though, I'd say anything in game is and should be allowed (like turning down all graphical settings, etc). (Again, it's up to UWE to make sure things like fog effects, etc aren't done too overboard that they vastly affect your playing field.)
Changing crosshairs (for example) should be an in game option.
In NS1, I personally liked using the NS 2.0 crosshairs over the ones that came with NS3.0 (or was it 3.0, vs the ones in 3.2? I forgot).
Changing the crosshairs in NS1 just required a console command change.
Anyway, lets take StarCraft for example.
In StarCraft 1 (Brood War), changing your hotkeys was illegal.
The reason was because there was no way to change them in game, it wasn't supported. Players had to learn how to use weird hard to reach hot keys like "P" for Pylon.
So, changing hotkeys in SC1 was illegal because there was no way to do it without third party programs.
In both WC3 and SC2, changing hotkeys were legal because there were built in ways to change it.
For WC3, you had to edit a text file (which Blizzard provided and allowed you to do).
In SC2, changing hot keys can be done in game really easily.
There are several types of hot key lay outs in SC2 that are far superior to all the default ones SC2 comes with. "<a href="http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341878" target="_blank">TheCore</a>" and "DarkGrid" (which came before TheCore has been a bit obsoleted now) are good examples .
Overall, the simplest way of defining cheats vs no cheats is for UWE to support popular (but not too game changing) mods like changing crosshairs (which was supported in NS1) while forbidding anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good post, but I'm going to nit-pick just a bit on the last part of it because it's important to the thread at hand.
Using Blizzard as an example... their stock maps are almost all rejected by tournaments that matter (no gold expansions for example). Blizzard has a core product that they have balanced around their customer base, not the comp/pro crowd. Tournament operators use modified (or unique) maps to clean up some of the blizzard designed mess, and those become standard for "pro" play. In public (ladder) matches, you better learn to use the blizzard maps though, because you're going to be seeing them exclusively.
The same goes for NS2, since this is what we're talking about. NS2 doesn't have a "pro" circuit out there to smooth out the rough edges. And the OP is targeted at the general community which encompass a majority of pub players using default installs of the game.
This goes back to what FrankerZ said (and, if I might be so humble, what I said in my first post in this thread, though less concise) about who authoritatively defines what is and is not considered legal with regard to the game at hand.
Just to put a bow on this : Blizzard might say that a map as it's found on ladder is fine, but if IPL says it is not, you won't see it on IPL but you'll still have to play it on ladder. The only thing that matters is if you're playing in the IPL or on ladder. No one has to worry that someone out there has a custom version of that map that departs from the core blizzard design when playing on ladder... and if you're playing in the IPL you will be stuck with what the IPL gives you regardless of what blizzard thinks about it unless Blizzard goes to some extreme to block it's inclusion in the basic game set.
I could argue that the devs have put the everything low options into the games, thus they must have intended for those settings to be within the stock "fair" settings.
You could then easily extend this argument to the steam workshop. The dev's have allowed the game engine to be easily modded by the steam workshop, thus every mod used in the steam workshop is also intended to be within the stock settings.
Using this line of logic the only "cheating" would come from 3rd party programs, hardware - macro keyboards etc.
PC games depend on institutions such as the NSL to draw a line in the sand for this purpse and they have done so, and as the only major institution within the NS2 environment, it makes sense for the community accept their definitions of what is fair.
Not exactly true, but close enough. I mean, we could just say that what ever installs on your computer at first start up equals "stock" settings... but that's just unrealistic and completely unenforceable (and still doesn't account for variables like hardware).
The idea is that someone has to define legal boundaries for the game before we can even have a discussion about what is cheating. In the absence of an official UWE ruling (perhaps enforced to some degree through the code of the game) on any given subject, we can only apply our own personal filters to determine where we stand with regard to what the community might consider cheating on any given subject.
For the pub-community, all we have right now are the hard-coded limitations imposed on us via the NS2 game and what is allowed via mods. Just beyond that we have what is possible via scripting and third party software with regard to how it interacts with the hard coded "rules" of the game.
For comps there's always going to be the dev enforced "rules" for a base-line followed by the tournament specific rules.
There will always be some basic "common sense rules" that apply though. Aim-bots and wall hacks will always be considered unequivocal cheats because of the impact they have on the broadest subsection of the community. Even games like Darklight, which embrace the horror by just going ahead and including wall-hacks into the basic features of the game won't accept someone using the built-in wall hack beyond it's designed limitations without calling it a cheat. But in the end these are still matters of debate as to the actual impact they have on regular play given the inclusion of a wall hack in the core mechanics.
It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that the majority of players in any given game would consider an aim-bot a clear cheat. But that's an uninteresting extreme of the discussion at hand. The really interesting discussion kicks in where people start disagreeing about what constitutes a departure from "legal" rules. After all, we are not talking about "house rules" which can be what ever all parties are aware of and agree to in advance... but rather what differentiates the ignorant from the informed about what is allowable in any given "pub" game beyond the basic install that defines the default game as designed by UWE.
So the only line that can possibly be drawn is "modified" or "vanilla" . The servers should be broken down into those two groups. You can join a "vanilla" server that enforces all game files are standard, or join a "mods allowed" server that lets you have pink fking skulks and pistol scripts to fire 10 shots in .01 seconds..
Personally I prefer the pure vanilla form of gaming. All players on equal grounds, no advantages but the ones you were born with. And I wish there were servers I could join where that was enforced on all players, so that when I'm hiding in a perfect spot as a skulk, I will go unseen as I should , rather than getting picked off by some ###### who has a mod that makes me glow bright pink..
As in yourself personally? Just download a few and try `em out. For myself, I just use the standard one, does me fine.
One thing you need to define to find out what would class as cheating is the classification of an advantage, and how much is acceptable.
I find this is most easily broken down into what makes a placebo advantage, over an actual advantage.
Placebo advantages would include such things as; crosshair customization, UI changes such as changing the colour of the HP bar (but not anything that changes the default to an extreme, such as removing the skulk jaws, or adding a crosshair for the exo.) and minor custom skins, such that they do not change in any way the advantages provided with them, for example the capacity for a skulk to hide in the darkness.
The changes that gain an actual advantage, against the balance and spirit of the game (another debatable quality) are ones such as; A change to the UI, that gains you extra screen room, or a help to aiming where you normally do not gain one. The changing of a skin to provide an advantage, such as removing the ability for an alien to hide due to fluorescent skin, or modified sounds so that normally quiet ones, are now loud (Similar to changing the spy's uncloaking noise in TF2). Adding in third party modifications that enable a program to do thinking for you, such as Aim-botting. Changing the Textures of walls, items and the such, so that you can view more than the norm. Making a macro to enable something that would otherwise be unobtainable by normal human standards, such as firing a weapon several times faster than the standard.
This brings into question what defines the limit for modifications. All of these things are changes to the core game, and so are defined by some as cheating. As I said, the difference in between what I find to be cheating, and what I do not, is whether it only applies a placebo effect, or an actual advantage. While the placebo effect does in many cases increase the capacity of an individual to score better, shoot more accurately and die less often, it is not an advantage that goes against the spirit of playing fairly, as this is also attainable by having a fun time, being relaxed rather than stressed, and other traits of the brain.
Changing things so that you have a definable advantage, are what I consider cheating.
tl;dr
Changing the crosshair does not affect how you play.
Changing models to bright pink affects how you play.
Ditto, the aliens dont have a x-hair (with 1 or two exceptions (ie parasite) and exo's have a stupidly big one that obscures your vision.
This is part of the games design, using x-hairs other than default is going to give you an advantage (otherwise why do you use it (honestly)?).
The way I look at it this is like the BF series, the x-hairs are part of what makes up part of the handicap of the weapon.
UWE did not make the EXO x-hair large by accident (as they would have corrected it by now if that was the case), its clearly mean to be a negative of the upgrade.
Skulks have teeth in the way (which is a weapon model) again by design its meant to obscure vision and make it harder to track marines.
What this means is that there are different levels of cheating, accepted cheating and condemned cheating. To a purest vanilla is vanilla no changes to anything thats not a built in control slider/drop down.
Then you get into the "accepted cheating" which is mods to weapons skins, models and hud/x-hairs (game dependant (ie tanks in BF3)).
Lastly the "condemned cheating" aimbots, white walls, wallhacks, ESP, wobble-bots etc which there is no disputing is cheating.
What we need to do is make the rookie servers forced Vanilla for the purests, then you can have normal servers that can chose to allow x-hairs and hud changes.
This way everyone can play the way they want, those new to the game are told to play on rookie (green) servers where they will find the most consitant game experience.
Once they feel they are no longer a rookie or want to mod their game they can go play on other servers.
As long as UWE keep at least 1 rookie server up out of their official servers this should give the new players a better experience and not have them playing against someone who has neon skulks.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I play with a gaming headset, this gives me an advantage over people who are playing with speakers(Non-surround sound).
Am I a cheater?
Am I a cheater?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The answer is no, having a better hardware is no kind of cheat or hack what so ever. However, if one was to use their better hardware to enable scripts and macros for in-game advantages then yes.
If someone complains that other players are using cheats and hacks because they are using the games recommended hardware settings but they themselves are only using the games minimal hardware settings then whose fault is that?
Many times players that are using scripts and macros are easier to spot than players might think. One way is to look at how a player is moving or if they are an average player but when they go a certain life form or team they become an unstoppable tank. If a player goes fade with a score of 150-2 (combat) but can’t kill anything with any other life form then it might raise an eyebrow or two.
It was a rhetorical question.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If someone complains that other players are using cheats and hacks because they are using the games recommended hardware settings but they themselves are only using the games minimal hardware settings then whose fault is that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one is at fault in that scenario, but the person complaining is an idiot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Many times players that are using scripts and macros are easier to spot than players might think. One way is to look at how a player is moving or if they are an average player but when they go a certain life form or team they become an unstoppable tank. If a player goes fade with a score of 150-2 (combat) but can’t kill anything with any other life form then it might raise an eyebrow or two.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm an awful skulk, I can't lerk, and I die all the time as a gorge.
Give me a fade(With, or without blink), and I kick ass.
By your definition, I'm a cheater.
Anything outside a basic script is borderline, ultrabright models and whitewalls and all that garbage do not magically change a scrub into someone good, it will give them an edge, but seriously, who cares. Play on an administrated server, why get angry when someone is cheating, they're doing it to troll you, and you are falling for it by stroking your rageboner.
If someone cheats, tell the admin, no admin? leave the server. Why deal with it to begin with?
I'll reply with a quote from you:
<!--quoteo(post=2066157:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 25 2013, 03:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wow... just, wow.
I mean, ... no... just wow!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah, instead of a silly dismissing reply, I'll elaborate, concisely, too, cuz I can:
You're thinking extremely black and white. You see NO difference whatsoever between cheating and having an edge. Using your logic you will be able to draw ANYTHING into the category of cheating, starting from the shape of the chair you're sitting on.
There are some basic rules you're stepping over. Without them, we might as well raise our hands and go "LALALALAA LALALALA". Because words, like cheating, just become meaningless.
Changing crosshairs BARELY, BARELY enters the category of "having an edge", from "vanilla". It is not EVEN NEAR "cheating". There's no opinioning or hairsplitting to be done. The whole notion is just plain stupid.
End of. Look how prettily concise. Please strive for the same courtesy.
i just want to have f
I can't remember the guys name that made those little comics.
Retales
what happened to him
<a href="http://www.readyroom.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/nanitesandbacterium0_20061205_-252682701.jpg" target="_blank">Space Orks</a> happened
I thought we were supposed to be keeping the 3rd team on the DL!
Nah, instead of a silly dismissing reply, I'll elaborate, concisely, too, cuz I can:
You're thinking extremely black and white. You see NO difference whatsoever between cheating and having an edge. Using your logic you will be able to draw ANYTHING into the category of cheating, starting from the shape of the chair you're sitting on.
There are some basic rules you're stepping over. Without them, we might as well raise our hands and go "LALALALAA LALALALA". Because words, like cheating, just become meaningless.
Changing crosshairs BARELY, BARELY enters the category of "having an edge", from "vanilla". It is not EVEN NEAR "cheating". There's no opinioning or hairsplitting to be done. The whole notion is just plain stupid.
End of. Look how prettily concise. Please strive for the same courtesy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Add in the fact that UWE <i>intended</i> for this game to be moddable(There's a menu option called "Mods"), which pretty much shuts down his and everyone else's arguments against mods.
Except that mods run the gambit from custom crosshairs (Fairly harmless) to invisible walls, detailed omniscient maps, and phosphorescent dynamic models.
You're clearly not interested in an actual discourse (As per your initial post, which was a facetious rhetorical statement rather than anything legitimate), but I'd like you to at least consider the intent of my original posts on the subject; the matter is a matter of greys, not black-and-white, as per your own definitions of UWE's involvement (or lack thereof) in supporting mods, but vaguely disapproving of 'cheating'.
As I said before; it is the *spirit* In which the modification is pursued... not so much the modification itself. There is a post a couple pages back that elaborates effectively on the whole subject;
<!--quoteo(post=2066157:date=Jan 24 2013, 06:40 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 24 2013, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I find fascinating is the ability of people to justify their personal departures from that paradigm as "minor" without grasping the concept that ANY departure from the paradigm constitutes a <b>departure </b>(ie. cheating). The magnitude isn't relevant at all... its the infraction. All the hand wringing and spinning doesn't change where you stand once you take it upon yourself to depart from the intended design of the game for your personal preference. Where the hair splitting begins is where your personal comfort factor ends... everyone is, subjectively, going to arrive at a different point of departure on this given the open design of NS2, specifically.
The authoritative tone taken by admitted cheaters on how their particular cheats <i>don't count</i> is side-splittingly hilarious in its intellectual dishonesty.
Maybe someone here could read this and maybe sit and think about it for 5 minutes before bothering to post again. Well said sir!
Wont help though, I think some folks around here are a bit hung up on the idea that they <u>are </u>cheating... it doesn't mesh with their self image I guess. It just can't be true, right? It's only [insert my cheat here] and <i>everyone </i>[citation needed] says it's cool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even saying crosshairs should be banned or frowned upon. I'm saying that it is the pursuit of things that others do not have for your gain (In a settings-type-environment, the hardware argument is an unavoidable reality of the computing world, so let's not mince rhetorical concepts) and to obtain an edge, is the spirit of cheating. It can begin harmlessly enough, custom crosshairs and gorge hearts, but eventually the mindset opens itself to aim-assist, half-visible walls, and everything else under the pretentious argument that "UWE SUPPORTS MODS" and "Everyone else could do it, too".
Ultimately, those who decide what "Cheating" is are those who run the community. Server administrators, the game company, tournament operators and sponsors. These are the only voices that hold the authority to enforce a policy. My argument runs more along the lines of attempting to convey to people that you should play with a purist view, because it grants merit to your victories and skill, whereas utilizing 'edge granting' mods and 'borderline cheating' does nothing but strip away that accomplishment, because everyone including yourself is aware that you've got a definitive edge, and it isn't actually superior ability or game-wisdom you're demonstrating.
Much love. Will gladly reply to non-facetious, non-directly-flamey-trolly-kiddos.
-Colt
Jesus H. Christ, am I the only who thinks succinct speech is a virtue...
<!--quoteo(post=2066722:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM:name=ColtColt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ColtColt @ Jan 26 2013, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066722"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you should play with a purist view, because it grants merit to your victories and skill, whereas utilizing 'edge granting' mods and 'borderline cheating' does nothing but strip away that accomplishment, because everyone including yourself is aware that you've got a definitive edge, and it isn't actually superior ability or game-wisdom you're demonstrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically you agree with Troubleshooter - there's no such thing as an edge, everything but vanilla is cheating?
That.
Doesn't.
Work.
Why? Because there will ALWAYS be someone with an edge. There will always be things someone benefits from, and because of that, you must YIELD to their existence and deal with them. You can't say they're cheating because you can't find the one whose NOT "cheating".
Or maybe you think you can? Okay, how about, you tell me the kind of crosshair that isn't cheating? "The vanilla one" -you say? I disagree. You can turn off the crosshair, thus removing the obtrusive crosshair entirely, giving you an edge. There's 2 to choose from, which is the cheating one? No crosshair or crosshair? Both are vanilla.
You don't even know what kind of a crosshair gives you an edge. You're still going to take out the pitchfork and burn someone, though.
Im glad that colt and whats-his-###### aren't the people that decide what cheating is. My custom crosshair would have me hanging from a rope by now.
There's plenty of question marks in my reply, take your pick before calling out self-justification. As for the "hostility", feel free to contact a moderator, although seeing as they're posting in this thread, we're probably flying well under the radar...
Worth your time?
<!--quoteo(post=2066738:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jesus H. Christ, am I the only who thinks succinct speech is a virtue...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Start there, and you can afford finishing conversations.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->LOCKED<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->