<!--quoteo(post=2064277:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:23 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 06:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everyone doesn't have to agree. There are clearly sizable difference in acceptance between changing your crosshair and changing your skulk models to neon green. Nearly everyone is ok with changing the default crosshairs -- or other UI elements which are designed to assist you (scan markers, waypoints, etc). I don't think I've seen anyone claim that neon green skulks were fair. Even though everyone will not agree on everything, there is still common ground to kill off some of these cheating techniques.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry for the double post, just wanted to address this directly :
FWIW, I consider anything from changed from outside the stock game settings to be a cheat. Your modded crosshairs are a cheat from my perspective. Your modded scan markers, waypoints and enhanced alien-vision are all cheats. You're cheating.
The reason you think that most people don't have a problem with them is because most of the opinions you value and listen to agree with you. The vast majority of NS2 players who don't come to the forums, don't spend hours reading into the way the game files can be changed to "fix" things you don't like... those people may not come here and vote with their posts, but if you announce in a server that you have changed the way the game looks to help you win is going to get you branded a cheater, since in common parlance its the very definition of cheating to alter the game from its original form.
I, personally, don't care what you do to your files. When you go play a tournament where you don't have modded crosshairs and easy-on-the-eyes alien vision, I assume you'll get your ass handed to you... and public humiliation is the best revenge ;)
If you can do it live, with a stock game... you're every bit the pro you say you are. Thats why I say tournaments are the only games that actually matter where cheating is concerned.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
Crosshair mods are generally accepted by clans though, and IMHO should be part of the game in any case. The default ones are pretty, but way too big...
<!--quoteo(post=2064296:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:59 PM:name=nitro-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nitro- @ Jan 21 2013, 06:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just FYI - Scripts and macro's were/are NOT allowed in competitive CS or DoD at all. I've played in pretty much all the high level competitive leagues for both, and any type of modification like that was suspendable. ESEA and CEVO both have a third party client that you run to ensure that there are no additional programs or macros running, and I think UWE should look to implement this in the future if the competitive game grows.
My opinion - scripts and macros are absolutely cheating. If it's a modification to the game and it provides you a significant advantage over someone of equal skill who is playing straight out of the box, then it shouldn't be allowed. Cheating in pubs is absolutely relevant as well - we all want this game to grow and it has a hard enough learning curve to new players. If you add cheaters into that equation that it becomes even more discouraging for someone trying to learn the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's why being good at the game without scripts/macro's is relevant at the competitive level... because at some point someone will be able to test your actual skills in a setting that matters and if you're relying on the computer taking over for you, you're going to fail hard. Its also why any Pro-clan worth a damn tries like hell to screen out people who've modded the game so that they don't lose when it matters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's a modification to the game and it provides you a <b>significant advantage</b> over someone of equal skill who is playing straight out of the box, then it shouldn't be allowed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Define significant advantage. Also, assuming equal skill at what? I may have equal skill at aiming, moving, tactics and every other metric that defines "skill" in your mind, but if I have nerve damage in my hand that makes it painful to tap-fire a weapon, should I be called a cheater for having a macro that allows me to fire the pistol by holding down M1? How about key-bindings... some players don't use QWERTY keyboards so the default layout for the UI is actually a limiting factor on them... but if they rebind to a QWERTY format are they getting an <i>unfair advantage</i> over other non-QWERTY users who don't?
<!--quoteo(post=2064306:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:15 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064306"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry for the double post, just wanted to address this directly :
FWIW, I consider anything from changed from outside the stock game settings to be a cheat. Your modded crosshairs are a cheat from my perspective. Your modded scan markers, waypoints and enhanced alien-vision are all cheats. You're cheating.
The reason you think that most people don't have a problem with them is because most of the opinions you value and listen to agree with you. The vast majority of NS2 players who don't come to the forums, don't spend hours reading into the way the game files can be changed to "fix" things you don't like... those people may not come here and vote with their posts, but if you announce in a server that you have changed the way the game looks to help you win is going to get you branded a cheater, since in common parlance its the very definition of cheating to alter the game from its original form.
I, personally, don't care what you do to your files. When you go play a tournament where you don't have modded crosshairs and easy-on-the-eyes alien vision, I assume you'll get your ass handed to you... and public humiliation is the best revenge ;)
If you can do it live, with a stock game... you're every bit the pro you say you are. Thats why I say tournaments are the only games that actually matter where cheating is concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're welcome to think that, but a vast majority of people would disagree with you.
Go into a server and say "I use custom crosshairs, do you think that is ok?" and I'm willing to bet a vast majority of pubs don't care. Try the same thing with "neon skulk model" and you'll get a much different answer.
The reason that I think most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements that are intended to assist the player is because most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements.
(Not to mention that the NS2 tournaments basically follow the same rules that I've laid out here. You can have custom crosshairs, but most everything else is consistency checked out.)
<!--quoteo(post=2064309:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:18 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crosshair mods are generally accepted by clans though, and IMHO should be part of the game in any case. The default ones are pretty, but way too big...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, subjective. Clans are not pubs, and whether or not you think they should be part of the game doesn't make them any more part of the stock retail game everyone else is playing, thus giving you an edge over all the poor pubbies that don't even know you CAN modify them to make them better. (or exist in the case of the Exo)
I think you guys can see where I'm going with this.
So long as everyone is going to define cheating as everything past the point that you, personally, consider it... we are not really discussing anything. There's no way to reach consensus on the topic because the topic is ill defined.
I'll check on this thread shortly... and if I don't think that I've made my point well enough, I'll just devils' advocate it to death by calling you all cheaters and demand you get banned for even looking at the LUA's. :)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
This is PC gaming though, not console gaming. Add to this that this is also an oldschool style shooter, we have always modded the games like this to suit our personal playstyles. This is a well know fact, and ignorance of being able to modify your crosshair is not an argument...
<!--quoteo(post=2064312:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:27 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064312"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're welcome to think that, but a vast majority of people would disagree with you.
Go into a server and say "I use custom crosshairs, do you think that is ok?" and I'm willing to bet a vast majority of pubs don't care. Try the same thing with "neon skulk model" and you'll get a much different answer.
The reason that I think most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements that are intended to assist the player is because most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements.
(Not to mention that the NS2 tournaments basically follow the same rules that I've laid out here. You can have custom crosshairs, but most everything else is consistency checked out.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, if I have custom crosshairs that turn valid targets neon green that's ok?
<!--quoteo(post=2064310:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:24 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And that's why being good at the game without scripts/macro's is relevant at the competitive level... because at some point someone will be able to test your actual skills in a setting that matters and if you're relying on the computer taking over for you, you're going to fail hard. Its also why any Pro-clan worth a damn tries like hell to screen out people who've modded the game so that they don't lose when it matters.
Define significant advantage. Also, assuming equal skill at what? I may have equal skill at aiming, moving, tactics and every other metric that defines "skill" in your mind, but if I have nerve damage in my hand that makes it painful to tap-fire a weapon, should I be called a cheater for having a macro that allows me to fire the pistol by holding down M1? How about key-bindings... some players don't use QWERTY keyboards so the default layout for the UI is actually a limiting factor on them... but if they rebind to a QWERTY format are they getting an <i>unfair advantage</i> over other non-QWERTY users who don't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep comparing completely different changes.
In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates -- 1 click for multiple bullets instead of 1 click for 1 bullet. This is also giving you an advantage in that you can fire much closer to the 0.1s refire rate than if you were clicking each time. And you're advantaged because it is easier to aim while holding m1 than it is to aim while rapidly pressing m1.
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
In short, yes, you are getting an unfair advantage by using a pistol script where as someone who changes their hotkeys is not getting an unfair advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2064315:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:32 PM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 21 2013, 07:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is PC gaming though, not console gaming. Add to this that this is also an oldschool style shooter, we have always modded the game to suit our personal playstyles. this is a well know fact, and ignorance of the fact that you can modify your crosshair is not an argument...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So modding how the game looks is ok then? Neon green skulks with 10 foot spikes coming off the them so I can spot them around corners is ok. I thought we were saying that was cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=2064316:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, if I have custom crosshairs that turn valid targets neon green that's ok?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, that would be cheating. You would be changing the mechanic of how crosshairs work. We do not have to consider this because custom crosshairs do not work like this. They can not check whether your target is valid or not. That would require LUA manipulation, which is consistency checked, or a true hack.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2064320:date=Jan 21 2013, 06:35 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So modding how the game looks is ok then? Neon green skulks with 10 foot spikes coming off the them so I can spot them around corners is ok. I thought we were saying that was cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a line to how far you're allowed to change the game before it becomes cheating. Crosshairs are way below that line and what you just referred to is the other extreme that will completely change how the game functions...
In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates -- 1 click for multiple bullets instead of 1 click for 1 bullet. This is also giving you an advantage in that you can fire much closer to the 0.1s refire rate than if you were clicking each time. And you're advantaged because it is easier to aim while holding m1 than it is to aim while rapidly pressing m1.
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
In short, yes, you are getting an unfair advantage by using a pistol script where as someone who changes their hotkeys is not getting an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that my modification was getting me a ROF closer to the 0.1s refire rate. My example is one of restoring a basic "default" ability via macro in the same way that rebinding keys allows players with non-standard equipment to get back to a standard performance.
Again, define unfair. What ROF on a pistol is unfair? Anything more than one shot per mouse click? Fine, how about I rebind it to my numer-pad and that way I can just mash the number-pad with my forehead and get lots of discrete "clicks"... that's cool? LOL
Again, give me some defined baseline for cheating, you're not going to win a debate without something that looks like a goalpost.
<!--quoteo(post=2064313:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:28 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064313"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Again, subjective. Clans are not pubs, and whether or not you think they should be part of the game doesn't make them any more part of the stock retail game everyone else is playing, thus giving you an edge over all the poor pubbies that don't even know you CAN modify them to make them better. (or exist in the case of the Exo)
I think you guys can see where I'm going with this.
So long as everyone is going to define cheating as everything past the point that you, personally, consider it... we are not really discussing anything. There's no way to reach consensus on the topic because the topic is ill defined.
I'll check on this thread shortly... and if I don't think that I've made my point well enough, I'll just devils' advocate it to death by calling you all cheaters and demand you get banned for even looking at the LUA's. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is that cheating is subjective and therefore nobody should attempt to define it. You're posting about this as if it is black and white -- you either cheat or you don't cheat. You're also using commonly accepted changes (graphics options, crosshair changes) as justification for commonly unaccepted changes (pistol scripts). People determine what is acceptable and what is not within their culture. What we're doing here is further defining what is acceptable and what is not.
I'm contesting that crosshair modifications are an acceptable customization by general consensus (though clearly not unanimous). Scripts/macros, model edits, and other game-file changes are not accepted by general consensus.
The moral fiber of the internet gaming community is nonexistent, people will modify their games all they want and they will rationalize for themselves that is it fair pathetically because thats how they get their kicks at being better than people in video games.
<!--quoteo(post=2064323:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:39 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said that my modification was getting me a ROF closer to the 0.1s refire rate. My example is one of restoring a basic "default" ability via macro in the same way that rebinding keys allows players with non-standard equipment to get back to a standard performance.
Again, define unfair. What ROF on a pistol is unfair? Anything more than one shot per mouse click? Fine, how about I rebind it to my numer-pad and that way I can just mash the number-pad with my forehead and get lots of discrete "clicks"... that's cool? LOL
Again, give me some defined baseline for cheating, you're not going to win a debate without something that looks like a goalpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2064317:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've nailed my argument for pistols. Anything more than one shot per mouse click or key press is cheating. You are welcome to rebind primary fire to one of your number pad buttons. If you think mashing your number pad with your forehead will get lots of discrete clicks then go for it. That's not cheating because 1 press = 1 fire.
I know players who use their keyboard to fire and that is not cheating. That is akin to changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
<!--quoteo(post=2064327:date=Jan 21 2013, 07:47 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anything more than one shot per mouse click or key press is cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why
Pistol's were intended to be semiautomatic and the ROF is related to your user input. 1 click = 1 shot etc... A macro/script modifies this and therefore should be classified as cheating.
The same cannot be said for crosshair mods - the intent of the crosshair is not being changed. By changing your crosshair you are not changing the function of the crosshair or using it in a way that was not intended.
Once again, with neon alien mods, you are changing the intended function of alien skins. They were specifically skinned and colored in a way to make them hard to spot and track in relation to the environment - these mods alter that.
<!--quoteo(post=2064348:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:31 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 08:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're modifying the mechanic behind the pistol. It was deliberately made semi automatic instead of fully automatic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cross hairs are not purple. Exo's dont have cross hairs. Alien vision looks like it does for a reason. You're modifying the game away from intentional design as well. You're cheating.
<!--quoteo(post=2064352:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:38 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cross hairs are not purple. Exo's dont have cross hairs. Alien vision looks like it does for a reason. You're modifying the game away from intentional design as well. You're cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you on this topic for the most part but your metaphor is terrible. Crosshairs can be any color while still functioning at the same level, but if we look at the pistol macro, well, why isn't there one just in game if it's okay?
<!--quoteo(post=2064352:date=Jan 21 2013, 02:38 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cross hairs are not purple. Alien vision looks like it does for a reason. You're modifying the game away from intentional design as well. You're cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not changing the mechanic of the crosshair. Nor is my cosmetic change against the spirit or intent of what the designers intended for the crosshair. I've never mentioned alien vision and am unsure why you keep mentioning it. Alien vision isn't a crosshair and customization of it can be cheating because you can edit shaders to do unfair things.
You're wrong, and I appreciate the fact that you know that.
<!--quoteo(post=2064352:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:38 PM:name=Troubleshooter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Troubleshooter @ Jan 21 2013, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064352"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cross hairs are not purple. Exo's dont have cross hairs. Alien vision looks like it does for a reason. You're modifying the game away from intentional design as well. You're cheating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You aren't though with regards to crosshairs. The purpose of the crosshair is to enable you to aim. How is changing it from one reticle to another affecting the intended design? Using a purple crosshair or a big crosshair or a small crosshair have no affect on the purpose of the crosshair.
I went 40-7 in a game yesterday and nobody accused me of hacking. There was a time when I was 13-1, started dying when higher life forms started appearing.
I guess if you are called a hacker, there must be a reason for it.
(btw, not showing off, first time ive had such a favorable score in a shooter, dont know what happened, if I wasnt the one playing, id say I was hacking)
<!--quoteo(post=2064359:date=Jan 21 2013, 08:45 PM:name=nitro-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nitro- @ Jan 21 2013, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You aren't though with regards to crosshairs. The purpose of the crosshair is to enable you to aim. How is changing it from one reticle to another affecting the intended design? Using a purple crosshair or a big crosshair or a small crosshair have no affect on the purpose of the crosshair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depsends. For the Exos, they dont have crosshairs and I think that's for a reason. So having a modded Crosshair on Exos is well beyond just changing the color of the normal Crosshair. As for the purple crosshair: It's not cheating, BUT you have it for the reason, that you (think that you) perform better with it than without. So it IS some kind of modification which gives you an advantage. IT's not as bad as turning up you Gamma in GPU drivers but still ... call it what you want... it's an advantage.
The problem with the Pistol is bad design period. A weapon should never be designed so that people have to look for ways of using it besides normal left clicking.
Also, there's no way of differentiating between a macro script, and someone who simply bound fire to moving the mouse wheel. Something that can be done on the hardware level to fire the pistol at its max fire rate. Something which also really can't be argued as cheating either.
I think a pistol macro is pushing what should be allowed.
Though I use to bound mousewheel to pistol in ns1. You get a higher rate of fire, though u couldn't hold it as still as a macro. I do have jump macro'ed to my mouse, but that is more for the lack of double binding.
On a side note, anyone whining about crosshair customization is an idiot. Because even if you had the misfortune of playing in a game/gaming community where people were actually stupid enough to make crosshair customization illegal, you'd always have the option of just applying a temporary red dot to your monitor that would serve <b>the same exact purpose</b>.
<!--quoteo(post=2064370:date=Jan 21 2013, 11:59 AM:name=Solarity)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solarity @ Jan 21 2013, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think a pistol macro is pushing what should be allowed.
Though I use to bound mousewheel to pistol in ns1. You get a higher rate of fire, though u couldn't hold it as still as a macro. I do have jump macro'ed to my mouse, but that is more for the lack of double binding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point I'm getting at is that there's no way of telling the difference between:
1.) Player A who bound fire to left mouse button *and* movement on his scroll wheel
and
2.) Player B who's using a macro.
There's also no functional difference in gameplay effect from the two of them either. The base problem is that rapid click to fire is an awful mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. The pistol should either have a significantly slower refire rate, or it should have the option of hold down to fire - or both.
<!--quoteo(post=2064371:date=Jan 21 2013, 09:00 PM:name=JAMESEARLJONOS)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JAMESEARLJONOS @ Jan 21 2013, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On a side note, anyone whining about crosshair customization is an idiot. Because even if you had the misfortune of playing in a game/gaming community where people were actually stupid enough to make crosshair customization illegal, you'd always have the option of just applying a temporary red dot to your monitor that would serve <b>the same exact purpose</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what exactly is you point? I also could take a ######load of coke so my reaction and Valor go through the roof. I'd run in your mainhive screaming and massacre you with 500 APM. Would be doping and in this sens ekind of unfair even though you can really do nothing about it.
Comments
Sorry for the double post, just wanted to address this directly :
FWIW, I consider anything from changed from outside the stock game settings to be a cheat. Your modded crosshairs are a cheat from my perspective. Your modded scan markers, waypoints and enhanced alien-vision are all cheats. You're cheating.
The reason you think that most people don't have a problem with them is because most of the opinions you value and listen to agree with you. The vast majority of NS2 players who don't come to the forums, don't spend hours reading into the way the game files can be changed to "fix" things you don't like... those people may not come here and vote with their posts, but if you announce in a server that you have changed the way the game looks to help you win is going to get you branded a cheater, since in common parlance its the very definition of cheating to alter the game from its original form.
I, personally, don't care what you do to your files. When you go play a tournament where you don't have modded crosshairs and easy-on-the-eyes alien vision, I assume you'll get your ass handed to you... and public humiliation is the best revenge ;)
If you can do it live, with a stock game... you're every bit the pro you say you are. Thats why I say tournaments are the only games that actually matter where cheating is concerned.
My opinion - scripts and macros are absolutely cheating. If it's a modification to the game and it provides you a significant advantage over someone of equal skill who is playing straight out of the box, then it shouldn't be allowed. Cheating in pubs is absolutely relevant as well - we all want this game to grow and it has a hard enough learning curve to new players. If you add cheaters into that equation that it becomes even more discouraging for someone trying to learn the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's why being good at the game without scripts/macro's is relevant at the competitive level... because at some point someone will be able to test your actual skills in a setting that matters and if you're relying on the computer taking over for you, you're going to fail hard. Its also why any Pro-clan worth a damn tries like hell to screen out people who've modded the game so that they don't lose when it matters.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it's a modification to the game and it provides you a <b>significant advantage</b> over someone of equal skill who is playing straight out of the box, then it shouldn't be allowed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Define significant advantage. Also, assuming equal skill at what? I may have equal skill at aiming, moving, tactics and every other metric that defines "skill" in your mind, but if I have nerve damage in my hand that makes it painful to tap-fire a weapon, should I be called a cheater for having a macro that allows me to fire the pistol by holding down M1? How about key-bindings... some players don't use QWERTY keyboards so the default layout for the UI is actually a limiting factor on them... but if they rebind to a QWERTY format are they getting an <i>unfair advantage</i> over other non-QWERTY users who don't?
FWIW, I consider anything from changed from outside the stock game settings to be a cheat. Your modded crosshairs are a cheat from my perspective. Your modded scan markers, waypoints and enhanced alien-vision are all cheats. You're cheating.
The reason you think that most people don't have a problem with them is because most of the opinions you value and listen to agree with you. The vast majority of NS2 players who don't come to the forums, don't spend hours reading into the way the game files can be changed to "fix" things you don't like... those people may not come here and vote with their posts, but if you announce in a server that you have changed the way the game looks to help you win is going to get you branded a cheater, since in common parlance its the very definition of cheating to alter the game from its original form.
I, personally, don't care what you do to your files. When you go play a tournament where you don't have modded crosshairs and easy-on-the-eyes alien vision, I assume you'll get your ass handed to you... and public humiliation is the best revenge ;)
If you can do it live, with a stock game... you're every bit the pro you say you are. Thats why I say tournaments are the only games that actually matter where cheating is concerned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're welcome to think that, but a vast majority of people would disagree with you.
Go into a server and say "I use custom crosshairs, do you think that is ok?" and I'm willing to bet a vast majority of pubs don't care. Try the same thing with "neon skulk model" and you'll get a much different answer.
The reason that I think most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements that are intended to assist the player is because most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements.
(Not to mention that the NS2 tournaments basically follow the same rules that I've laid out here. You can have custom crosshairs, but most everything else is consistency checked out.)
Again, subjective. Clans are not pubs, and whether or not you think they should be part of the game doesn't make them any more part of the stock retail game everyone else is playing, thus giving you an edge over all the poor pubbies that don't even know you CAN modify them to make them better. (or exist in the case of the Exo)
I think you guys can see where I'm going with this.
So long as everyone is going to define cheating as everything past the point that you, personally, consider it... we are not really discussing anything. There's no way to reach consensus on the topic because the topic is ill defined.
I'll check on this thread shortly... and if I don't think that I've made my point well enough, I'll just devils' advocate it to death by calling you all cheaters and demand you get banned for even looking at the LUA's. :)
Go into a server and say "I use custom crosshairs, do you think that is ok?" and I'm willing to bet a vast majority of pubs don't care. Try the same thing with "neon skulk model" and you'll get a much different answer.
The reason that I think most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements that are intended to assist the player is because most people don't have a problem with these custom UI elements.
(Not to mention that the NS2 tournaments basically follow the same rules that I've laid out here. You can have custom crosshairs, but most everything else is consistency checked out.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, if I have custom crosshairs that turn valid targets neon green that's ok?
Define significant advantage. Also, assuming equal skill at what? I may have equal skill at aiming, moving, tactics and every other metric that defines "skill" in your mind, but if I have nerve damage in my hand that makes it painful to tap-fire a weapon, should I be called a cheater for having a macro that allows me to fire the pistol by holding down M1? How about key-bindings... some players don't use QWERTY keyboards so the default layout for the UI is actually a limiting factor on them... but if they rebind to a QWERTY format are they getting an <i>unfair advantage</i> over other non-QWERTY users who don't?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You keep comparing completely different changes.
In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates -- 1 click for multiple bullets instead of 1 click for 1 bullet. This is also giving you an advantage in that you can fire much closer to the 0.1s refire rate than if you were clicking each time. And you're advantaged because it is easier to aim while holding m1 than it is to aim while rapidly pressing m1.
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
In short, yes, you are getting an unfair advantage by using a pistol script where as someone who changes their hotkeys is not getting an unfair advantage.
So modding how the game looks is ok then? Neon green skulks with 10 foot spikes coming off the them so I can spot them around corners is ok. I thought we were saying that was cheating.
No, that would be cheating. You would be changing the mechanic of how crosshairs work. We do not have to consider this because custom crosshairs do not work like this. They can not check whether your target is valid or not. That would require LUA manipulation, which is consistency checked, or a true hack.
There is a line to how far you're allowed to change the game before it becomes cheating. Crosshairs are way below that line and what you just referred to is the other extreme that will completely change how the game functions...
In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates -- 1 click for multiple bullets instead of 1 click for 1 bullet. This is also giving you an advantage in that you can fire much closer to the 0.1s refire rate than if you were clicking each time. And you're advantaged because it is easier to aim while holding m1 than it is to aim while rapidly pressing m1.
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
In short, yes, you are getting an unfair advantage by using a pistol script where as someone who changes their hotkeys is not getting an unfair advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that my modification was getting me a ROF closer to the 0.1s refire rate. My example is one of restoring a basic "default" ability via macro in the same way that rebinding keys allows players with non-standard equipment to get back to a standard performance.
Again, define unfair. What ROF on a pistol is unfair? Anything more than one shot per mouse click? Fine, how about I rebind it to my numer-pad and that way I can just mash the number-pad with my forehead and get lots of discrete "clicks"... that's cool? LOL
Again, give me some defined baseline for cheating, you're not going to win a debate without something that looks like a goalpost.
I think you guys can see where I'm going with this.
So long as everyone is going to define cheating as everything past the point that you, personally, consider it... we are not really discussing anything. There's no way to reach consensus on the topic because the topic is ill defined.
I'll check on this thread shortly... and if I don't think that I've made my point well enough, I'll just devils' advocate it to death by calling you all cheaters and demand you get banned for even looking at the LUA's. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your point is that cheating is subjective and therefore nobody should attempt to define it. You're posting about this as if it is black and white -- you either cheat or you don't cheat. You're also using commonly accepted changes (graphics options, crosshair changes) as justification for commonly unaccepted changes (pistol scripts). People determine what is acceptable and what is not within their culture. What we're doing here is further defining what is acceptable and what is not.
I'm contesting that crosshair modifications are an acceptable customization by general consensus (though clearly not unanimous). Scripts/macros, model edits, and other game-file changes are not accepted by general consensus.
Again, define unfair. What ROF on a pistol is unfair? Anything more than one shot per mouse click? Fine, how about I rebind it to my numer-pad and that way I can just mash the number-pad with my forehead and get lots of discrete "clicks"... that's cool? LOL
Again, give me some defined baseline for cheating, you're not going to win a debate without something that looks like a goalpost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2064317:date=Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jan 21 2013, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2064317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In one (macros that rapid fire the pistol) you are functionally changing the way that the game operates
In your other example (changing hotkeys) you are not functionally changing anything. It's like changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You've nailed my argument for pistols. Anything more than one shot per mouse click or key press is cheating. You are welcome to rebind primary fire to one of your number pad buttons. If you think mashing your number pad with your forehead will get lots of discrete clicks then go for it. That's not cheating because 1 press = 1 fire.
I know players who use their keyboard to fire and that is not cheating. That is akin to changing WASD to ESDF or arrows.
Why
You're modifying the mechanic behind the pistol. It was deliberately made semi automatic instead of fully automatic.
Because it's not possible without the use of a script/macro...
Pistol's were intended to be semiautomatic and the ROF is related to your user input. 1 click = 1 shot etc... A macro/script modifies this and therefore should be classified as cheating.
The same cannot be said for crosshair mods - the intent of the crosshair is not being changed. By changing your crosshair you are not changing the function of the crosshair or using it in a way that was not intended.
Once again, with neon alien mods, you are changing the intended function of alien skins. They were specifically skinned and colored in a way to make them hard to spot and track in relation to the environment - these mods alter that.
Cross hairs are not purple. Exo's dont have cross hairs. Alien vision looks like it does for a reason. You're modifying the game away from intentional design as well. You're cheating.
I agree with you on this topic for the most part but your metaphor is terrible. Crosshairs can be any color while still functioning at the same level, but if we look at the pistol macro, well, why isn't there one just in game if it's okay?
I am not changing the mechanic of the crosshair. Nor is my cosmetic change against the spirit or intent of what the designers intended for the crosshair. I've never mentioned alien vision and am unsure why you keep mentioning it. Alien vision isn't a crosshair and customization of it can be cheating because you can edit shaders to do unfair things.
You're wrong, and I appreciate the fact that you know that.
You aren't though with regards to crosshairs. The purpose of the crosshair is to enable you to aim. How is changing it from one reticle to another affecting the intended design? Using a purple crosshair or a big crosshair or a small crosshair have no affect on the purpose of the crosshair.
There was a time when I was 13-1, started dying when higher life forms started appearing.
I guess if you are called a hacker, there must be a reason for it.
(btw, not showing off, first time ive had such a favorable score in a shooter, dont know what happened, if I wasnt the one playing, id say I was hacking)
Depsends. For the Exos, they dont have crosshairs and I think that's for a reason. So having a modded Crosshair on Exos is well beyond just changing the color of the normal Crosshair.
As for the purple crosshair: It's not cheating, BUT you have it for the reason, that you (think that you) perform better with it than without. So it IS some kind of modification which gives you an advantage. IT's not as bad as turning up you Gamma in GPU drivers but still ... call it what you want... it's an advantage.
Also, there's no way of differentiating between a macro script, and someone who simply bound fire to moving the mouse wheel. Something that can be done on the hardware level to fire the pistol at its max fire rate. Something which also really can't be argued as cheating either.
Though I use to bound mousewheel to pistol in ns1. You get a higher rate of fire, though u couldn't hold it as still as a macro. I do have jump macro'ed to my mouse, but that is more for the lack of double binding.
Though I use to bound mousewheel to pistol in ns1. You get a higher rate of fire, though u couldn't hold it as still as a macro. I do have jump macro'ed to my mouse, but that is more for the lack of double binding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point I'm getting at is that there's no way of telling the difference between:
1.) Player A who bound fire to left mouse button *and* movement on his scroll wheel
and
2.) Player B who's using a macro.
There's also no functional difference in gameplay effect from the two of them either. The base problem is that rapid click to fire is an awful mechanic that shouldn't be in the game. The pistol should either have a significantly slower refire rate, or it should have the option of hold down to fire - or both.
So what exactly is you point?
I also could take a ######load of coke so my reaction and Valor go through the roof. I'd run in your mainhive screaming and massacre you with 500 APM. Would be doping and in this sens ekind of unfair even though you can really do nothing about it.