Cheating and hacking
Know pain
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157674Members
<div class="IPBDescription">And everything else</div>What is this community’s view’s on cheating and hacking? Do the aim bot, wall hack and speed hack apply or do the scripts and macros also apply. I’ve heard that many players have stated that macros and scripts are allowed in competitive Counter Strike and Half Life 1 mods, so does that mean if they are allowed in one game, they are allowed in every game?
My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.
My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.
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Just an opinion. Just saying.
The short answer is this:
They almost certainly weren't cheating. Cheats are not accepted here, to answer your other question directly.
I know right.
My view is that - at a competitive level, anything out side of core engine is 'cheating' or gaining an advantage - even to the crosshair level.
for pub play.. dont really care, then its more of a 'how much abuse before it ruins the games for others'
people with aimbot (which i've never witness) is similar to people with incredibly good aim... which is still killable by aliens teamwork anyway.
speedhack i'd imagine might ruin games...
pisto whip + aimbot might end up ruining games a bit too much
Just FYI... you can get "cheats" directly off the workshop..... which is pretty sad.
There's one that turns aliens a bright color, so you can see them in pitch black darkness and makes it far easier to track and kill. It also removes the weapon models and alien view models from the screen.... no more alien teeth to obscure your view when you bite.
Just FYI... you can get "cheats" directly off the workshop..... which is pretty sad.
There's one that turns aliens a bright color, so you can see them in pitch black darkness and makes it far easier to track and kill. It also removes the weapon models and alien view models from the screen.... no more alien teeth to obscure your view when you bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ehh.... wouldn't that mean that actual aimbots and whatnot are okay because there's nothing anyone can do to stop it?
As for that workshop mod, I think that was someone trying to white-hat a better consistency check.
Now it would be cool if we had first person spectate but I think we can expect that on October 31st 2013 or 2014.
The answer is that you can't. It isn't feasible. Even though these things give as big an advantage (probably bigger to be honest) as certain scripts and macros do, they simply cannot be controlled. All that you can do is prevent things from entering common use if they remove the core skill being tested in the game. For example, macros in WoW allowed players to automatically target certain things, however in WoW, a players ability to target something is not the core skill being tested, so they let it slide.
Why would anyone consistently cheat anyhow. It's just beyond me. Either you're so addicted to the praise of complete strangers it borders mental illness, or you're psychotic enough to completely ignore the fact you're cheating and thus happily keep at it.
I cheated once in Counter-Strike. In one round. Was like, okay, so I'm topping the scores now... ...what am I supposed to do next? ................. *uninstalling cheats*
Now it would be cool if we had first person spectate but I think we can expect that on October 31st 2013 or 2014.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
UWE is the only one that can stop scripts/macros. Aimbots, wall hacks, editting game files, etc is definitely cheating and should be frowned upon. Scripts/macros are also cheating, but unlike the others they are nearly impossible to stop because every high end keyboard or mouse can do them. When I think someone is using some kind of script, I blame UWE -- not that player.
What needs to happen:
When a problematic script/macro pops up (like, say, the pistol script) then UWE needs to kill the script by redesigning the mechanic. In this case, by bumping pistol refire rate up to something human, like 0.2s instead of 0.1s, and giving players automatic fire. Another option is to make the pistol like the old secondary, where it had a 0.4 or 0.5 refire rate, semi auto, and did much higher damage.
Did I ever show you this? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXLDuUXj8ww" target="_blank">Pistol Exploit</a>. I don't think the fire rate is really to blame cause when I did that the fire rate was effected by FPS quite a bit. Not sure if this ever got fixed actually.
That's done by modifying the Lua code right?
Since there is consistency checking by default on all .lua files, scripting is largely impossible. You could do a macro which sends Mkey1 presses repeatedly though, nothing stops against that. I wouldn't call external macros cheats in NS2 though as it provides a huge advantage, but in the same time a huge disadvantage. It's not like it aims for you.
Since there is consistency checking by default on all .lua files, scripting is largely impossible. You could do a macro which sends Mkey1 presses repeatedly though, nothing stops against that. I wouldn't call external macros cheats in NS2 though as it provides a huge advantage, but in the same time a huge disadvantage. It's not like it aims for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope that's done by my G19 keyboard or any keyboard that has macro capability. Essentially by making a macro that when a key is pressed it will fire x number of times with a delay between them. I have to test again and probably submit a report now that I think about it.
This was suggested almost verbatim in Google moderator, but was downvoted to oblivion for some reason.
It's not that simple. You don't just "click really fast" to do it. It is done with a keyboard or mouse macro, or some other outside script program.
It makes aiming the pistol easier and allows you to unload it significantly faster than a normal fire rate. It has a very distinct sound that you don't get from clicking the pistol; no matter how fast you are, it's not hitting the 0.1s refire rate.
(clicking the mouse 10 times in 1 seconds is not the same as clicking 10 times 0.1s apart from each other)
My view is that if a program no matter how small or insignificant it affects you game play but adds a gain over the other players on the server it shouldn’t be allowed. If you’re a good enough player as is, then you shouldn’t be allowed to use something outside the game to make yourself better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything that is not available immediately in game. Ergo, scripting is fine, macros are borderline acceptable, aimbot/hacks bad.
PS: This thread sounds like a troll
It makes aiming the pistol easier and allows you to unload it significantly faster than a normal fire rate. It has a very distinct sound that you don't get from clicking the pistol; no matter how fast you are, it's not hitting the 0.1s refire rate.
(clicking the mouse 10 times in 1 seconds is not the same as clicking 10 times 0.1s apart from each other)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["cheating"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the pistol macro involved in this case is most definitely that." - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart
Unless there is a common definition, what are we discussing?
For example... the game doesn't lock down everyone's FPS to the lowest FPS in the match, so people who pay for a better PC will get better performance, and thus have an advantage in game. Is that an <i>unfair </i>advantage? Now, how about turning off infestation, shadows, atmospherics (all things I've done) to help with spotting/targeting aliens. Its in the game, everyone can do it, but some people say that's not how the game was intended to be played so its cheating. I say why play with your eyes closed, its an option to adjust the settings, so you SHOULD do it... your team needs you to play your best, if you don't, you're hurting the team.
How about adding mods to the game to add crosshairs, skins, alter textures? I'm more skeptical about this stuff... seems like you're going to some extremes to get an edge... but if the game doesn't filter this stuff, and it can... then it's fair game. If everyone can do it, then there's nothing unfair about it... you either do it or you don't, but the choice is yours.
Scripts, macros... again, you're taking it to a new level to get an edge, but a badly constructed script or macro can hurt you just as much as help you. I have my mousewheel rebound to M1, so I can fire my pistol quickly... but my mouse wheel doesn't register each "click" properly so I added a macro to double/triple the speed of the M1 clicks and throw in a few extra. Now my pistol fires almost as fast as the LMG when I use the mouse wheel... but anyone can do this, and I find that unless I'm picking off cysts or shooting into a hive, that the extra speed on the shots isn't helping me since I miss and waste lots of shots when I would rather just use the regular M1 in a fight.
What about a macro that just spits out stuff in chat. "Inc main" on macro1, "Main powernode" on Macro2. It makes communicating easier and faster than a normal human can type. Is that cheating?
Mouse that allows me to dynamically alter my sensitivity for precision shooting? Cheat?
Red dot on the monitor where my bullets go to get around no-crosshairs? Cheat?
The list goes on, but you get the idea. Most of you will look at the list above and cherry pick something that you think is ok, and lots of things that are not. The problem is that few of you will be in 100% agreement on what crosses that line.
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IMO, cheating is irrelevant outside of tournaments. Any tournament that doesn't have some sort of fair-play baseline that is enforceable isn't a real tournament anyway. Professional SC2 is played live on stage using stock equipment with minimal accommodation made to the players wishes. So when some pub-hero wants to talk smack about how noob I am and how he's the best there's ever been, I ignore them most of the time. Its a pub, who knows what BS they have installed on their PC or what lengths they will go to just to get a higher KDR. I couldn't care less.
I play the best I can, I work with my team to secure victory. I've won plenty of matches with negative KDR's vs. some against L33T 360 no-scope shotgun surgeons. If I'm losing to someone who seems to be cheating, I'm going to be pissed about it like anyone else but with no way in the world to prove they are cheating, why get fussed about it. Step up your game.
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TL/DR : Perception is reality. Someone several rungs higher than you on the skill ladder will always seem like they are cheating. Unless there is some enforceable "baseline" to the game, people will be able to secure small advantages. These can add up to a large advantage if they are actually good at the game. Fortunately, people who need to cheat are often bad at the game, and you can beat most cheats just by being really good and using your head. The ones you can't, you can't win no matter what so why get upset about it. Take comfort in the fact that they can't win, so they let the computer play the game for them. Find a new server if you can't pull out a win vs. them, there's really nothing else you can do.
"scripts can hurt you, so maybe they're not cheating?"
"I miss with my pistol script, so it might not be cheating."
Not all modifications are created equal. Changing in game options isn't the same as running a third party script. Having good FPS/hardware isn't the same as running an aimbot. I feel like you know this, but you beat around the bush and explicitly ignore it to prove your point -- that everyone won't agree.
Everyone doesn't have to agree. There are clearly sizable difference in acceptance between changing your crosshair and changing your skulk models to neon green. Nearly everyone is ok with changing the default crosshairs -- or other UI elements which are designed to assist you (scan markers, waypoints, etc). I don't think I've seen anyone claim that neon green skulks were fair. Even though everyone will not agree on everything, there is still common ground to kill off some of these cheating techniques.
I'm also not sure why you think cheating is irrelevant outside of tournaments. It's pretty easy to grasp why an aimbot or wallhack can ruin public games. Model edits, scripts/macros, and HUD customization are all watered down extensions of this. It's up to the public to reach a general consensus (though probably not unanimous) and address the problems caused by these tactics.
I'm saying that the question of what is a cheat is subjective.
For example, I categorically deny that running a macro is a cheat. You can disagree all you want, that's your opinion, that adds no weight to either of our points of view.
I would argue that an aim bot is the definition of a cheat, but there will undoubtedly be someone out there that says that their aimbot is just just the logical extension of my macro.
Just some background on where I come from on this point. I played Counterstrike and TFC when they were THE competitive games to play outside of Quake. Back then, you had two kinds of exploits being used that stood out.
In TFC, conc jumping allowed medics and scouts to essentially teleport around the map. Good players could execute them on the fly, but most people used scripts. The scripts limited how and when they could use them, which made them predicable, and that made them bad. (in the land of the blind, the one eye'd man is king) The problem from a certain point of view was that it made it impossible to play the game "normally" because once this got out, it completely changed the way the game was played. The meta was dominated by it. This leads to aimbots...
In CS, the first aim-bots started showing up and making games hard to play. Again, not unplayable, just difficult because some dude was playing far and away better than everyone else in the match. However, we were already used to this kind of thing from the better players in the community, and so there just wasn't any use in complaining about it... some players were also doing the "red dot of death" thing too, but without anyway to prove it, why worry.
When the aim-bots started showing up in TFC, that was a different story. Now you had snipers able to pick off even the good/un-scripted players at will, negating scripts and skill alike. There are degrees of impact for a particular exploit on a game environment. The size of the community and the pay-off to cheating will determine who "cheats" and to what degree.
More recently, I come from the BF3 community where the constant (I mean, every damn game) whine from baddies about hax has gotten absolutely comical. The game has built in wall-hacks and people wonder how you can pick them off as they round a corner... its stupid. Still, there are legitimate cheaters in the game. Anyone not obviously dominating a server with some auto-kill hack or a damage modifier that gives them away (getting one-shot by a gun that can-not one shot you for example) or who selectively turns on an aim-bot to snipe a jet pilot out of the sky isn't actually having any greater impact on the game than the average good player. So, if a baddie needs some aim-assist to stay competitive, it's actually making the game more fun for me to play because its not a total noob-stomp every time I join in a server to play.
Yes, obvious cheats do piss me off. I've uploaded vids of them when they are being blatant about it and ruining a game. Beyond that, if you can't prove they are not that good, then what is the point of worrying about it.
TL/DR : Try-hards will use every advantage they can to get an edge. Where do you define cheating? Yes, the community can define some kind of red-line that allows exploits up to that limit, but to what end? NS2 doesn't even have a ranking system, what is the point of worrying about this, there's nothing to be gained from cheating, and without a way to detect it, there's no point in worrying about who's doing what. Just play the game and if you're not making progress try a new server or join a clan (safety in numbers).
In the end, if it doesn't break the game, its not so massive an injury to the integrity of a match (that means zero) that it needs to be crushed mercilessly. Far more damage is done to the community via hacuastions than from the actual hackers.
Ultimately, anyone seeking "cred" based on their "skillz" has to show me what they can do in a live match with stock equipment. Everything else is just laughable e-peen stroking. SC2 pro leagues are a perfect example of this.
My opinion - scripts and macros are absolutely cheating. If it's a modification to the game and it provides you a significant advantage over someone of equal skill who is playing straight out of the box, then it shouldn't be allowed. Cheating in pubs is absolutely relevant as well - we all want this game to grow and it has a hard enough learning curve to new players. If you add cheaters into that equation that it becomes even more discouraging for someone trying to learn the game.