Really disappointed they decided to go with just putting the onos at 3 hives, I hope it's just a stpgap measure for the time being. What this does is it effectively kills the t.res onos strategy in most games (since aliens rarely get a third have in a timely matter, certainly not on maps like veil), rather than just making it less viable and in line with other potential strategies. What UWE is effectively doing is making the khammander strategic gameplay even more shallow than it already is, by cutting in the variety of strategies to be used, rather than increasing the number of such viable strategies.
I can't help but think this change was slapped on in the very last moment, it certainly wasn't in the balance mod, nor was it communicated to the community beforehand. (And if they really believed this was a proper solution, surely they would have done it 5 weeks ago) In addition, the combination of the 3 hive requirement on top of the armour nerf is overklill. Why do we even still need that armour nerf when you've effectively killed t.res onos drops?
| strongly urge Charlie to consider a maturity approach instead, have the onos egg at 2 mature hives and significantly increase maturation time (can still be sped up if khammander invests t.res into nutrient mist) That way the onos egg remains a viable strategy at 2 hives, but due to its increased timing it will be much more in line with other potential strategies AND be closer to the p.res onos timeframe in general thus pretty much solving the issue in a much more sensible way.
Secondly, the shift changes are terrible, I honestly can't believe they made it past the balance mod. It was clearly communicated by many players that these changes were overkill and ended up killing the early single hive shift strategy (which mind you was a good thing, since it was an alternative to fast second hive) UWE doesn't want games to resolve around quick second hives as much, yet they completely wreck the one strategy that was a viable alternative to it. YES mass shift forward egg spawning needed to be addressed, but 5 t.res on eggs AND a cooldown is definitely not the way to go about that since it also affects the viability of shift strategies at the start of the game. (Double res in nano, shift at second hive location instead of a second hive, shift closer to marine base, etc)
As far as I'm concerned, these changes go to show UWE is still not thinking their balance changes through. These fixes are incredibly narrow-minded, while fixing perceived issues (which are often merely symptoms of something larger), they also end up breaking a whole variety of viable strategies thus hurting the overall strategic gameplay of the alien side.
Some maps still heavily favour aliens, and many games are still going to be lost because marines lack the needed coordination or immediate commander, this means that while these changes will certainly affect the marine win rate, it won't magically bring it above 50% in one go. Nor should you care of it does, this incredibly narrow focus on win percentages only damages the balance effort in the long run, since you are not analysing in-depth but merely on the surface, and making changes based upon that which cause massive collateral damage.
Whoever's responsible for removing the North Point RT on mineshaft needs to be shot. Cave was the worst starting hive in NS history already, now it's actually at a point where you can basically only restart the round if you get it. I can't believe anyone with even the slightest understanding of the game would change THAT and do nothing about cavern...
<!--coloro:#FFC0CB--><span style="color:#FFC0CB"><!--/coloro-->Yeah, that's why nobody plays mineshaft. Worst map in the history of gaming, as far as balance goes.
<!--quoteo(post=2029867:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:18 PM:name=jakthereitirks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jakthereitirks @ Nov 20 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like they forgot to add the mineshaft changes to the patch notes. There is a secret room now near the marine side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't be a secret if they mentioned it. So shh... :P<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Seems like UWE's notion of fixing perceived problems with parts of a viable strategies exists exclusively out of just killing the entire strategy altogether. The onos issue was a timing one, by bringing it to the third hive they are essentially killing it as a strategy in a majority of games and on 4 TP maps, unless aliens have already pretty much won anyway. The shift forward egg spawn problem was one exclusively existent in the midgame and with these changes they also end up demolishing the whole early game shift egg placement alternative to the second hive, for fast pressure.
I for one am very happy that these changes are being rolled out. It may not be the ideal long term solution, but early onos was downright busted. There have been a few good suggestions for tweaks in this thread amidst all the raging. In particular, I think having a set of very slightly tweaked variables for Tournament mode makes absolute sense, you will never be able to reconcile the skill gap between the casuals and the pros.
I have more thoughts, but too tired to extrapolate. I'm glad some fixes are being attempted, playing marines was just getting downright miserable, and aliens laughably easy by comparison. I'm sure unnecessary changes can be reverted, the egg cost seems a likely candidate.
ThinGLord of wub and vlaaiJoin Date: 2003-04-11Member: 15400Members, Reinforced - Supporter
edited November 2012
I'm just an average pubber, but I feel the feedback from playtesters and competitive players needs to be given a lot more value than public statistics when it comes to balance.
Most new players and those that may not be utterly uber tend to stack on Marines, making it hard to join that team at all. Aliens can be confusing when you're just starting out. So this tends to leave little room on Marine teams for more experienced players, who will then have to join Aliens unless they feel like spending minutes waiting in RR for someone else to cave or leave. It's like this self fulfilling shindig.
The general majority of players need to do less ###### and more playing. And actually listen to some more experienced players instead of going '6 min onos GG' and proceed to having an ingame balance discussion instead of actually working together to take down either an onos or exo with backup.
But hey, balance is one of the toughest things to figure out. Right now though, I feel an automated team randomatron would do a whole lot more for public statistics than changes to mechanics. Having said that, I'm glad to see new things are being tried either way. And I've had a lot of fun during the past weeks.
<!--quoteo(post=2029890:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:53 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 20 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...this incredibly narrow focus on win percentages only damages the balance effort in the long run, since you are not analysing in-depth but merely on the surface, and making changes based upon that which cause massive collateral damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Earlier in the thread this was posted -
<!--quoteo(post=2029665:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:15 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 19 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is balanced via wide consultation, observation, statistic collection, anecdote, and theory. Anything you've heard to the contrary is untrue.
Many people accuse us of balancing only for competitive, or only for public, or only for win/loss ratio, or even of favouring a particular team. All of that is untrue. The reality is NS2 is an extremely complicated interconnected system. That system can be upset, or corrected, by even the tiniest rippling changes.
Charlie casts an extremely wide net when balancing it, and anything you might have heard to the contrary is incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Changes like the shift one are incredibly poorly thought out, and only go to show the balance process isn't (always) that cautious and wide as they make it out to be.
<!--quoteo(post=2029941:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:08 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 20 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029941"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changes like the shift one are incredibly poorly thought out, and only go to show the balance process isn't all that cautious and wide as they make it out to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your opinion vs Charlie's opinion does not equal poorly thought out balance changes. Only one of you works full time in developing this game. The patch was *just* released.
So you're saying the shift changes are fine then? Balance is hardly about opinions, I'm not arguing Charlie's opinion, I'm arguing that this change is downright terrible and completely wrecks shift as a viable early game investment . I don't think you will find many other NS2 player with 500+ hours who seriously agrees these shift changes are a proper solution.
I'm sure it'll get reverted or addressed one way or another, it's just kind of sad we have to deal with these kind of poorly thought out and excessive changes in the first place, the game's no longer a beta.
<!--quoteo(post=2029706:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:46 AM:name=minos_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (minos_ @ Nov 20 2012, 06:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure what res ######ing is, but it's hard to blame people. Why would you go fade, a lifeform that can die in two lucky shotgun hits, does only slightly more damage to marines than skulk (and less to buildings!) and costs 50 pres when you can save for just 25 more and get a lifeform that takes a whole team to down, kills everything but a3 in 2 hits, and absolutely wrecks structures?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This. The fade needs a major buff. It's a mystery to me how the devs or anyone having played the game for more than half an hour can't see that. Damage is fine, but health is absolutely ridiculous. Right now it's essentially a fat and immobile skulk which can never really take on more than 1-2 marines. I get you're a hit and runner and aren't supposed to wreck groups of marines, but as it is now, it's nothing but laughable and a waste of res in relation to how much it costs.
In other words, you don't NEED a fade to turn or finish a game and they're not fit for the job. This needs to change. Especially with the new Onos egg change.
<!--quoteo(post=2029927:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:47 PM:name=ThinG)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThinG @ Nov 20 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The general majority of players need to do less ###### and more playing. And actually listen to some more experienced players instead of going '6 min onos GG' and proceed to having an ingame balance discussion instead of actually working together to take down either an onos or exo with backup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. As long as we have marine commanders who have no clue about build order, res prioritising or map control, as long as there's marine commanders who never say a word and "secure" locations with sentries instead of PGs (or building sentries at all really), of course statistics will be messed up. New players (and sadly even some not so new ones) don't have a good sense of game mechanics or playing etiquette and shouldn't ever go comm until they do, because each time they do, they ruin the game for pretty much everyone else on the server.
New players don't hurt the team half as much if they listen and learn before acting, which too many people flat out refuse.
I actually think the onos and the shift changes were needed in the long run. Sure it might brake the balance for now but in the end it will make for a better gameplay.
Its a step in the right direction but there are still more followup changes needed, I'm pretty sure we will see alot of marine wins til next patch.
<!--quoteo(post=2029650:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:06 AM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Nov 20 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A "Tournament mode" won't really solve anything though. It will just increase the gap between public players and competitive players even further.
What I would like to see is that the 6v6 matchups are the standard gametype. Where you search for a game, much like in Mobas. Make the current form of public servers a mod, or whatever. Adding from-menu availability to spectate "top" games.
There is a lot of useful things to gather from dota2, lol and starcraft. It is also a way to avoid having to balance for 6v6 and games with up to 30 players.
The majority of the playerbase would probably disagree with me, haters gonna hate etc.
<3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually a very hard thing to implement. With the spectating option right now, when YOU have to be in the live game server. This however will be possible when 'HLTV' like spectator will be implemented into the game. That way, if you would have automatic HLTV attachment to ALL the servers - than you will be able to make that 'top list' etc with almost unlimited spectators. Since HLTV was a server based, I would expect in NS2 it will be the same, so any server running the NS2 server would be able to include or exclude that HLTV.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On the onos note</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - it's a good temporary fix, but it hurts too much. I didn't play the new build yet, however if the alien player can't evolve into Onos using his own resources with two hives - that's the problem.
So I would finalize that fix with: TRes onos - egg drop with 3 hives. PRes - evolve with 2 hives. It's still takes some time to get 75 res for a player and it will promote the idea of defending Alien RTs and killing alien RTs, since the 3rd hive is not the only option of getting the onos.
Onos will still require some final adjustments on hp/carapace/dmg/rate of fire/range. Also, hitting through the sealing, floor and walls has to be fixed as well. I guess vents will be fixed to appropriate level if the onos attack range is reduced. However allowing him to hit through the sealing and floor.. meh...
i've played a few build 230 games and my impression is that the game feels a lot more dynamic and fun without the 2-hive threat of insta-onos. the alien team seemed considerably weaker than 229, but honestly i think if the alien commander adjusts to drop lerk/fade eggs instead of always relying on crutch onos egg then players will be able to save pres for onos - provided they have a decent number of harvesters.
i noticed that marines can now get jetpacks up a lot easier, without that fast onos. this could be a big balance factor in the new metagame, although i believe it's too early to say broken or not - but the alien commander certainly NEEDS to drop those lerk/fade eggs because a 3rd hive is often out of the question and might never see an onos unless players can afford to stockpile those pres and buy one.
<!--quoteo(post=2029636:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:57 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 19 2012, 11:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it can. Public games represent 99% of games played. Why would you balance the game around the '1%' ?
I've already offered my opinion on your suggestion <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124858&view=findpost&p=2029413" target="_blank">here</a>. I'm all for competitive players balancing the gameplay for a TOURNAMENT MODE. Add a tournament mode to the game, and you can put in all the balance changes necessary to make it a great competitive game. Meanwhile, those changes won't impact the public servers - which can 'pub' along without expecting players to play like pros in order for the game to be balanced for them.
We can make both sides happy, but we'll never make either side happy trying to balance the game for both competitive players and pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2029963:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:32 PM:name=bHack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bHack @ Nov 20 2012, 12:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029963"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's actually a very hard thing to implement. With the spectating option right now, when YOU have to be in the live game server. This however will be possible when 'HLTV' like spectator will be implemented into the game. That way, if you would have automatic HLTV attachment to ALL the servers - than you will be able to make that 'top list' etc with almost unlimited spectators. Since HLTV was a server based, I would expect in NS2 it will be the same, so any server running the NS2 server would be able to include or exclude that HLTV.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On the onos note</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - it's a good temporary fix, but it hurts too much. I didn't play the new build yet, however if the alien player can't evolve into Onos using his own resources with two hives - that's the problem.
So I would finalize that fix with: TRes onos - egg drop with 3 hives. PRes - evolve with 2 hives. It's still takes some time to get 75 res for a player and it will promote the idea of defending Alien RTs and killing alien RTs, since the 3rd hive is not the only option of getting the onos.
Onos will still require some final adjustments on hp/carapace/dmg/rate of fire/range. Also, hitting through the sealing, floor and walls has to be fixed as well. I guess vents will be fixed to appropriate level if the onos attack range is reduced. However allowing him to hit through the sealing and floor.. meh...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since when do you even need 2 hives to get a pres onos?
@alien commanders - give your team lerk/fade eggs... they will most definitely need them.
First, we make hives take longer to build to delay the onos egg drop. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive build time increased from 150 seconds to 180 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since that may not be enough, let's make it weaker. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced Onos armor by 100 (-8%, effectiveness vs. Exos and heavy weapons impacted less because armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, guys, I have a genius idea, let's move it to 3 hives without reverting any of the previous changes, that will appease the masses! <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most importantly, let's not test this change at all.
I hope the ones change was made to show how weak the rest of the aliens are late game. Because that is what we will see. The leek is support damage, fade is hit and run, and skulk prays it can take out exo and jp marines with macs swarming around repairing everything. Sorry, but if you are fighting to keep your 2nd hive, you don't have res to go onos unless you just ignored your res. I never went onos because I die needlessly without heals, so I lerk to support skulks and onos. Lerks can't take out exo, and fade get slaughtered if they try. So that leaves skulk, and they will die in the process, but that's ok since they are free.... Except for spawn time, and upgrade time, and hope you spawn close.... Oh yes, Ty for shift nerf. It was needless and compounded what I just described. 2 hive aliens lose to 2 chair marines in good games. That was post 229. 229 made them have to flank us because we could hold out better due to crag buff. That's it.
<!--quoteo(post=2029997:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:06 PM:name=Genomaxter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genomaxter @ Nov 20 2012, 01:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029997"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hope the ones change was made to show how weak the rest of the aliens are late game. Because that is what we will see. The leek is support damage, fade is hit and run, and skulk prays it can take out exo and jp marines with macs swarming around repairing everything. Sorry, but if you are fighting to keep your 2nd hive, you don't have res to go onos unless you just ignored your res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lerk is not meant to be support damage... the reason it's taken a support niche is because if your commander is spending every tres penny on onos then your lerk becomes PRICELESS, therefore you can't afford to take risks and when you die the marines will be elated.
if your commander can afford to drop the occasional lerk egg, then you can afford to be a bit more aggressive and we'll see the pretty side of lerk. the same is true for fade.
onos is a crutch, and even if it turns out to be overkill - i would still prefer tweaking to lerk and fade rather than a stupid over-reliance on onos again.
edit: lolz at your edit where you refer to aliens as 'us'... i smell fanboy :D
The one thing I hope everyone remembers is how responsive the devs are to changes and how they see those changes impact the player base. If things swing too far after a change then it will get tweaked. As the player base evolves I expect the game to evolve with it. Happened in NS1 and is already happening in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=2029947:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:16 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Nov 20 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying the shift changes are fine then? Balance is hardly about opinions, I'm not arguing Charlie's opinion, I'm arguing that this change is downright terrible and completely wrecks shift as a viable early game investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Claims balance is hardly about opinions, proceeds to state his opinion.
Of course I'm an alien fan. Been playing this game since it released 10 years ago. I play whatever side has less players. And that tends to be aliens. And I have more fun as aliens than marines. And I don't use tres for lifeforms. Any time I go a higher lifeform, it my own. And calling an onos a crutch should also make the same true for exo. Sorry, but they are both the same role. And last I check, exo don't have as high a tech cost to get compared to onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2030000:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:15 PM:name=Morose)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Morose @ Nov 20 2012, 03:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030000"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one thing I hope everyone remembers is how responsive the devs are to changes and how they see those changes impact the player base. If things swing too far after a change then it will get tweaked. As the player base evolves I expect the game to evolve with it. Happened in NS1 and is already happening in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The game is not in beta anymore and it's unacceptable to affect competitive play every week with "swings" in balance. Especially as it gets zero balance testing.
<!--quoteo(post=2030007:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:28 PM:name=Genomaxter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Genomaxter @ Nov 20 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course I'm an alien fan. Been playing this game since it released 10 years ago. I play whatever side has less players. And that tends to be aliens. And I have more fun as aliens than marines. And I don't use tres for lifeforms. Any time I go a higher lifeform, it my own. And calling an onos a crutch should also make the same true for exo. Sorry, but they are both the same role. And last I check, exo don't have as high a tech cost to get compared to onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
err... marine commander can't ever drop a dual minigun exo - you know, the exo that costs 75 pres, ergo the parallel to onos.
also, it's a shame that you don't use tres lifeforms... because it could prevent your team from winning.
Comments
I can't help but think this change was slapped on in the very last moment, it certainly wasn't in the balance mod, nor was it communicated to the community beforehand. (And if they really believed this was a proper solution, surely they would have done it 5 weeks ago) In addition, the combination of the 3 hive requirement on top of the armour nerf is overklill. Why do we even still need that armour nerf when you've effectively killed t.res onos drops?
| strongly urge Charlie to consider a maturity approach instead, have the onos egg at 2 mature hives and significantly increase maturation time (can still be sped up if khammander invests t.res into nutrient mist) That way the onos egg remains a viable strategy at 2 hives, but due to its increased timing it will be much more in line with other potential strategies AND be closer to the p.res onos timeframe in general thus pretty much solving the issue in a much more sensible way.
Secondly, the shift changes are terrible, I honestly can't believe they made it past the balance mod. It was clearly communicated by many players that these changes were overkill and ended up killing the early single hive shift strategy (which mind you was a good thing, since it was an alternative to fast second hive) UWE doesn't want games to resolve around quick second hives as much, yet they completely wreck the one strategy that was a viable alternative to it. YES mass shift forward egg spawning needed to be addressed, but 5 t.res on eggs AND a cooldown is definitely not the way to go about that since it also affects the viability of shift strategies at the start of the game. (Double res in nano, shift at second hive location instead of a second hive, shift closer to marine base, etc)
As far as I'm concerned, these changes go to show UWE is still not thinking their balance changes through. These fixes are incredibly narrow-minded, while fixing perceived issues (which are often merely symptoms of something larger), they also end up breaking a whole variety of viable strategies thus hurting the overall strategic gameplay of the alien side.
Some maps still heavily favour aliens, and many games are still going to be lost because marines lack the needed coordination or immediate commander, this means that while these changes will certainly affect the marine win rate, it won't magically bring it above 50% in one go. Nor should you care of it does, this incredibly narrow focus on win percentages only damages the balance effort in the long run, since you are not analysing in-depth but merely on the surface, and making changes based upon that which cause massive collateral damage.
<!--quoteo(post=2029867:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:18 PM:name=jakthereitirks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jakthereitirks @ Nov 20 2012, 08:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Looks like they forgot to add the mineshaft changes to the patch notes. There is a secret room now near the marine side.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't be a secret if they mentioned it. So shh... :P<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I for one am very happy that these changes are being rolled out. It may not be the ideal long term solution, but early onos was downright busted. There have been a few good suggestions for tweaks in this thread amidst all the raging. In particular, I think having a set of very slightly tweaked variables for Tournament mode makes absolute sense, you will never be able to reconcile the skill gap between the casuals and the pros.
I have more thoughts, but too tired to extrapolate. I'm glad some fixes are being attempted, playing marines was just getting downright miserable, and aliens laughably easy by comparison. I'm sure unnecessary changes can be reverted, the egg cost seems a likely candidate.
Sleep now.
<3
Most new players and those that may not be utterly uber tend to stack on Marines, making it hard to join that team at all. Aliens can be confusing when you're just starting out. So this tends to leave little room on Marine teams for more experienced players, who will then have to join Aliens unless they feel like spending minutes waiting in RR for someone else to cave or leave. It's like this self fulfilling shindig.
The general majority of players need to do less ###### and more playing. And actually listen to some more experienced players instead of going '6 min onos GG' and proceed to having an ingame balance discussion instead of actually working together to take down either an onos or exo with backup.
But hey, balance is one of the toughest things to figure out. Right now though, I feel an automated team randomatron would do a whole lot more for public statistics than changes to mechanics. Having said that, I'm glad to see new things are being tried either way. And I've had a lot of fun during the past weeks.
*goes back to playing*
Earlier in the thread this was posted -
<!--quoteo(post=2029665:date=Nov 19 2012, 08:15 PM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 19 2012, 08:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is balanced via wide consultation, observation, statistic collection, anecdote, and theory. Anything you've heard to the contrary is untrue.
Many people accuse us of balancing only for competitive, or only for public, or only for win/loss ratio, or even of favouring a particular team. All of that is untrue. The reality is NS2 is an extremely complicated interconnected system. That system can be upset, or corrected, by even the tiniest rippling changes.
Charlie casts an extremely wide net when balancing it, and anything you might have heard to the contrary is incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
instantly marines suffer the correct amount when losing a base, and have a reason to expand other than exos/jps<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea for some reason.
Your opinion vs Charlie's opinion does not equal poorly thought out balance changes. Only one of you works full time in developing this game. The patch was *just* released.
I'm sure it'll get reverted or addressed one way or another, it's just kind of sad we have to deal with these kind of poorly thought out and excessive changes in the first place, the game's no longer a beta.
This. The fade needs a major buff. It's a mystery to me how the devs or anyone having played the game for more than half an hour can't see that. Damage is fine, but health is absolutely ridiculous. Right now it's essentially a fat and immobile skulk which can never really take on more than 1-2 marines. I get you're a hit and runner and aren't supposed to wreck groups of marines, but as it is now, it's nothing but laughable and a waste of res in relation to how much it costs.
In other words, you don't NEED a fade to turn or finish a game and they're not fit for the job. This needs to change. Especially with the new Onos egg change.
<!--quoteo(post=2029927:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:47 PM:name=ThinG)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThinG @ Nov 20 2012, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The general majority of players need to do less ###### and more playing. And actually listen to some more experienced players instead of going '6 min onos GG' and proceed to having an ingame balance discussion instead of actually working together to take down either an onos or exo with backup.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. As long as we have marine commanders who have no clue about build order, res prioritising or map control, as long as there's marine commanders who never say a word and "secure" locations with sentries instead of PGs (or building sentries at all really), of course statistics will be messed up. New players (and sadly even some not so new ones) don't have a good sense of game mechanics or playing etiquette and shouldn't ever go comm until they do, because each time they do, they ruin the game for pretty much everyone else on the server.
New players don't hurt the team half as much if they listen and learn before acting, which too many people flat out refuse.
Its a step in the right direction but there are still more followup changes needed, I'm pretty sure we will see alot of marine wins til next patch.
What I would like to see is that the 6v6 matchups are the standard gametype. Where you search for a game, much like in Mobas. Make the current form of public servers a mod, or whatever. Adding from-menu availability to spectate "top" games.
There is a lot of useful things to gather from dota2, lol and starcraft. It is also a way to avoid having to balance for 6v6 and games with up to 30 players.
The majority of the playerbase would probably disagree with me, haters gonna hate etc.
<3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's actually a very hard thing to implement. With the spectating option right now, when YOU have to be in the live game server.
This however will be possible when 'HLTV' like spectator will be implemented into the game.
That way, if you would have automatic HLTV attachment to ALL the servers - than you will be able to make that 'top list' etc with almost unlimited spectators.
Since HLTV was a server based, I would expect in NS2 it will be the same, so any server running the NS2 server would be able to include or exclude that HLTV.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On the onos note</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - it's a good temporary fix, but it hurts too much. I didn't play the new build yet, however if the alien player can't evolve into Onos using his own resources with two hives - that's the problem.
So I would finalize that fix with: TRes onos - egg drop with 3 hives. PRes - evolve with 2 hives. It's still takes some time to get 75 res for a player and it will promote the idea of defending Alien RTs and killing alien RTs, since the 3rd hive is not the only option of getting the onos.
Onos will still require some final adjustments on hp/carapace/dmg/rate of fire/range. Also, hitting through the sealing, floor and walls has to be fixed as well. I guess vents will be fixed to appropriate level if the onos attack range is reduced. However allowing him to hit through the sealing and floor.. meh...
onos removed
i noticed that marines can now get jetpacks up a lot easier, without that fast onos. this could be a big balance factor in the new metagame, although i believe it's too early to say broken or not - but the alien commander certainly NEEDS to drop those lerk/fade eggs because a 3rd hive is often out of the question and might never see an onos unless players can afford to stockpile those pres and buy one.
I've already offered my opinion on your suggestion <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124858&view=findpost&p=2029413" target="_blank">here</a>. I'm all for competitive players balancing the gameplay for a TOURNAMENT MODE. Add a tournament mode to the game, and you can put in all the balance changes necessary to make it a great competitive game. Meanwhile, those changes won't impact the public servers - which can 'pub' along without expecting players to play like pros in order for the game to be balanced for them.
We can make both sides happy, but we'll never make either side happy trying to balance the game for both competitive players and pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. 1000 times this!
This however will be possible when 'HLTV' like spectator will be implemented into the game.
That way, if you would have automatic HLTV attachment to ALL the servers - than you will be able to make that 'top list' etc with almost unlimited spectators.
Since HLTV was a server based, I would expect in NS2 it will be the same, so any server running the NS2 server would be able to include or exclude that HLTV.
<!--coloro:#4169E1--><span style="color:#4169E1"><!--/coloro--><b>On the onos note</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> - it's a good temporary fix, but it hurts too much. I didn't play the new build yet, however if the alien player can't evolve into Onos using his own resources with two hives - that's the problem.
So I would finalize that fix with: TRes onos - egg drop with 3 hives. PRes - evolve with 2 hives. It's still takes some time to get 75 res for a player and it will promote the idea of defending Alien RTs and killing alien RTs, since the 3rd hive is not the only option of getting the onos.
Onos will still require some final adjustments on hp/carapace/dmg/rate of fire/range. Also, hitting through the sealing, floor and walls has to be fixed as well. I guess vents will be fixed to appropriate level if the onos attack range is reduced. However allowing him to hit through the sealing and floor.. meh...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
since when do you even need 2 hives to get a pres onos?
@alien commanders - give your team lerk/fade eggs... they will most definitely need them.
First, we make hives take longer to build to delay the onos egg drop.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive build time increased from 150 seconds to 180 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since that may not be enough, let's make it weaker.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced Onos armor by 100 (-8%, effectiveness vs. Exos and heavy weapons impacted less because armor).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wait, guys, I have a genius idea, let's move it to 3 hives without reverting any of the previous changes, that will appease the masses!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most importantly, let's not test this change at all.
Voilà . Build 230 Onos changes.
lerk is not meant to be support damage... the reason it's taken a support niche is because if your commander is spending every tres penny on onos then your lerk becomes PRICELESS, therefore you can't afford to take risks and when you die the marines will be elated.
if your commander can afford to drop the occasional lerk egg, then you can afford to be a bit more aggressive and we'll see the pretty side of lerk. the same is true for fade.
onos is a crutch, and even if it turns out to be overkill - i would still prefer tweaking to lerk and fade rather than a stupid over-reliance on onos again.
edit: lolz at your edit where you refer to aliens as 'us'... i smell fanboy :D
Claims balance is hardly about opinions, proceeds to state his opinion.
The game is not in beta anymore and it's unacceptable to affect competitive play every week with "swings" in balance. Especially as it gets zero balance testing.
err... marine commander can't ever drop a dual minigun exo - you know, the exo that costs 75 pres, ergo the parallel to onos.
also, it's a shame that you don't use tres lifeforms... because it could prevent your team from winning.
Looking forward to PLAY this patch, AFTER which, that is, AFTERWARDS - providing feedback & suggestions.
Unless ofc I'm wrong AND I HAVE TO STOP PLAYING IN 5 SECONDS BECAUSE IT IS SO AWFUL lol.