<!--quoteo(post=2030157:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:12 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Nov 20 2012, 06:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030157"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only way for aliens to be able to fight the marines effectivly before was with the early onos, thats the reason why that startetgy was always used. Its not the problem of adapting to changes, the problem is the viability of other ways to play the game.
I recommend playing/studying competitive play before really judging, you might be supriced how many problems in public play is actually a problem in competitive as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa, no offense. I'm with you on that, as my previous post suggested. I just like the irony. :) Anyway, maybe some comp-clan will find another strategy that is effective enough to win as aliens now. But this will sure take some time.
<!--quoteo(post=2030162:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:13 PM:name=Brood)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brood @ Nov 20 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Scuse me to reply late to some of you guy's replies , but competitive players in a game is first a minority and secondly they dont actually "perfect" the game design, they create a meta-build to victory which usually just ends up being a cluster###### every competitive match and then destroys the whole competitive scene , so if you guys think balancing the game just from those presumptions is a good idea, i feel sorry for ya.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a couple of days ago pub play was far more imbalanced than comp... they changed stuff which was universally op in both pub and comp and threw in some small tweaking to the 'bold' changes introduced in 229...
where pub is concerned, i can't see how 230 balance can possibly be worse than 229.
well that wasnt a reply to just this build or whatever, game is always more unbalanced on pub plays than comp for sure, depending how much different is the average per player per team in pub or comp , balance will always be different anyways.You wouldnt play a 5v5 in ns2 same as a 16v16. I have no idea if ns2 comp scene already has set a player limit per team. Either way, pubs will always be the most unbalanced.
<!--quoteo(post=2030146:date=Nov 20 2012, 11:06 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades did get a buff, shadowstep spamming is very useful. Remains to be seen if that's good enough, but I think they made plenty of balance changes for one patch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Too bad he still dies in two hits.
I already crashed three times in marine commander this patch, never crashed ever before in NS 2. Someone was spamming ammo requests though I doubt that has something to do with it. Please look into this, really can't command like this.
<!--quoteo(post=2030197:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:07 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 20 2012, 05:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030197"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Too bad he still dies in two hits.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
isn't it about time you get used to dying in 2 hits?
i'm having a whale of a time with 2-hittable fade (espectially camo) on pub servers. it seems that people use 2-hittable fade all the time in competitive games.
the fact that it's inferior to onos is made irrelevant by the new tres onos 3-hive requirement, because it's now a viable choice for tres drops.
From what I can tell, the game is somewhat more balanced now. In the games I've played the team with the better players is winning every time, aliens or marines.
My biggest problem now is the performance.. its even worse than before. 10 minutes in to a game I cant aim at anything to save my life .. literally. I die at every encounter with an enemy because my FPS drops to 2-5. Totally unplayable..
Interesting changes and I look forward to seeing how it all plays out on the servers.
Just to throw an idea out there, for the egg drops - how about there being upgrade(s) the commander can buy to make dropping eggs cheaper: and then initially pricing the Onos quite highly. Idea being - it's more difficult to drop an early Onos egg because the price would be high - but the commander can then make this cheaper by investing into egg production.
<!--quoteo(post=2029605:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:15 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 20 2012, 08:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please post comments on the topic Natural Selection 2 News Update - Build 230 is now life on Steam here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please post changes in update to Steam game news, because not everyone check your site. I want read update notes directly from Steam, like for all other games.
<!--quoteo(post=2029632:date=Nov 20 2012, 04:54 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Nov 20 2012, 04:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029632"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Beat me to it. I don't see these changes looking at the actual LUA files.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which files would these changes be in? Can someone post diffs so we can see the 'real' changelog? :)
has collision or prediction related changes been made? I'm experiencing severe screen shattering and fps drops whenever I engage in combat. I wasn't getting playable fps during the whole beta phase but the patch just before 1.0 significantly smoothed my game. But now, it's back to unplayable state again.
So I dont understand how people misunderstand the Onos change.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)
<!--quoteo(post=2030284:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:45 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Nov 20 2012, 12:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1
I lost count of how many posts on this topic have started out with "I haven't played the new patch yet, but....." NO, no "butts", play first, then form an opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2030284:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:45 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Nov 20 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I dont understand how people misunderstand the Onos change.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives" is relatively ambiguous phrasing. It's obvious what happened to anybody who's following the TRes Onos controversy, but I can see how the typical player would be confused.
<!--quoteo(post=2029713:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:51 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 12:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While the devs will try, they're really searching for a holy grail that no game on the market has yet to find.
I get that 6v6 works for competitive play, but that's not how the PUBLIC like to play. Seeing as they're the ones buying it, I would think we would be wise to cater to what they like to play and not what they don't.
This is a business first and foremost, and you don't make money in business by telling the customers what they want. Any business that does will find that the customers will likely give them the finger. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how the largest company in the world did exactly that... My bet is you own a few of their gadgets and use several of their services.
Searching for perfection is not a bad thing and all software companies that survive do just that, thus updates.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2030284:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:45 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Nov 20 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I dont understand how people misunderstand the Onos change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem stems from people looking at the changelog on the site and immediately going to the forum to complain. So when you add this to the changelog..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they'll misread the vagueness and assume Onos requires three hives for t.res and p.res.
<!--quoteo(post=2030284:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:45 PM:name=WasabiOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WasabiOne @ Nov 20 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030284"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I dont understand how people misunderstand the Onos change.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tres Commander... dude whats the new team? Theres gonna be Three commanders!?!?!? Are two marine or are two alien? Or is it a new team... dude I bet its a new team!
Onos, thats the one with the two miniguns isnt it? We can get it with Pres, how do we get pres? What is the current conversion rate on your E-store for pres? Like if I spent a dollar would I get 100?
Can you please link me to New Strats? It sounds like a good game and I will deffo give you some feedback on it!
Keep at it UWE! Either way, I'm enjoying the game :)
Just a thought, some else also commented on it, where does the stats come from - server types and so on? With some simple math it's easy to see that the number of players (slots on serever) also affects balance. I'm sure other have come to the conclusion that a 12vs12 server favours marines IF they take advantage of it (it's harder for aliens to take advantage of the added number).Why? Because regardless of the number of players the damage from weapons stay the same. One could argue that for a balanced game the amount of potential damage per attack and total amount of armour would always stay the same and be evenly distributed among each sides players. That would be weird... So, we are stuck with this model BUT it would be nice if we could get stats based on number of players (do we have it already?) so that it can be an official number of players the balancing is based on. A 6vs6 is not the same as a 12vs12.
With the armour changes to exo, I see exo rushes as a serious possibility now, considering that at the 5-6 minute mark its unlikely the aliens will even have a fade, let alone if they were able to get an Onos. Since the gap between a level 0 and level 3 armour exo has almost halved, it is now possible to rush only weapons, and get exos out to tank the damage. In my opinion, without a minigun (and a claw) it is simply too difficult to push through alien structures at the moment.
The main balance problem is the elimination of the skill depth from NS1.
With the fade being useless in NS2, everyone saves for Onos. Therefore, at the same time in the game you get 5-6 Onos rushing and taking ground. Since the Onos is so easy to play, any noob can do it. If the fade were boosted and the skill depth of the NS1 fade added back in then more people would take that, much evening out the game.
Similarly, the marines lack the HMG JP combo which was deadly to Onos in a skilled player's hands. The lack of JP HMG allows one low skilled Onos player to dominate low skilled marines. A much better approach is to have a high skill fade with focus-like swipes (as alt fire?) half balance the alien team against JP marines with HMGs.
Tres Onos block until 3 hives is just a quick fix and doesn't address the lack of skill depth in NS2 compared to NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=2030207:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:26 PM:name=tarquinbb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tarquinbb @ Nov 20 2012, 12:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030207"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->isn't it about time you get used to dying in 2 hits?
i'm having a whale of a time with 2-hittable fade (espectially camo) on pub servers. it seems that people use 2-hittable fade all the time in competitive games.
the fact that it's inferior to onos is made irrelevant by the new tres onos 3-hive requirement, because it's now a viable choice for tres drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one uses Fade. It's flat out bad. Lerk is better.
Lol it is hard to win as a Alien already, it requires much more skilled players to win as a alien than marines, aliens don't have focus anymore so all marine has to do is upgrate armor and they are pretty much good for the game, fade has to do 4 hits on a marine at the end of the game to kill him + commander dropping medic kit makes it even harder. Exo is extremely quick to make and powerfull... Nerfed onos (3 hives for onos egg was required tho) and buffed exo lol, nerfed aliens so hard that is just sad, imma only play marine until they balance this.
Any server you would join before this patch it was hard to join marines because everyone wanted to, now it is gonna be impossible (publics).
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
Hugh, stop being so naughty, the american's don't like it!
Anyway, im worried about some of these changes... Just remove shift egg gestation, its wrong anyway, give it to the hive, and make it so that shifts have to echo eggs to spots. makes much more sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2030410:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:22 PM:name=SixtyWattMan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SixtyWattMan @ Nov 20 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No one uses Fade. It's flat out bad. Lerk is better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played with a guy last night who went 40-50 and 1 with the Fade. He's pretty much the reason why we won the game (The Marines had some good players, plus a good commander).
Not a great example, but it's clear that there are some people who really know how to use them. Maybe people just need more practice?
<!--quoteo(post=2030426:date=Nov 20 2012, 08:39 PM:name=Doppy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Doppy @ Nov 20 2012, 08:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2030426"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played with a guy last night who went 40-50 and 1 with the Fade. He's pretty much the reason why we won the game (The Marines had some good players, plus a good commander).
Not a great example, but it's clear that there are some people who really know how to use them. Maybe people just need more practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah... those people are probably the same people who play starcraft2 and make 5 stargates carrier off 1-base, then whine when they get beaten in early game because they thought their best strategy was to save up for their 'hero' unit because the intermediary units aren't as strong as the 'hero' unit.
the marines aren't sitting around... if everyone refuses to use lerk and fade and just saves up for fast pres onos then you should lose against any competent marine team.
Comments
I recommend playing/studying competitive play before really judging, you might be supriced how many problems in public play is actually a problem in competitive as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa, no offense. I'm with you on that, as my previous post suggested. I just like the irony. :)
Anyway, maybe some comp-clan will find another strategy that is effective enough to win as aliens now. But this will sure take some time.
a couple of days ago pub play was far more imbalanced than comp... they changed stuff which was universally op in both pub and comp and threw in some small tweaking to the 'bold' changes introduced in 229...
where pub is concerned, i can't see how 230 balance can possibly be worse than 229.
VeNeM finally got bored of posting this crappy "build XXX" nonsense in every thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haha, seriously, he's posted it in 5 threads now? We get it VeNeM...
Too bad he still dies in two hits.
isn't it about time you get used to dying in 2 hits?
i'm having a whale of a time with 2-hittable fade (espectially camo) on pub servers. it seems that people use 2-hittable fade all the time in competitive games.
the fact that it's inferior to onos is made irrelevant by the new tres onos 3-hive requirement, because it's now a viable choice for tres drops.
My biggest problem now is the performance.. its even worse than before. 10 minutes in to a game I cant aim at anything to save my life .. literally. I die at every encounter with an enemy because my FPS drops to 2-5. Totally unplayable..
Just to throw an idea out there, for the egg drops - how about there being upgrade(s) the commander can buy to make dropping eggs cheaper: and then initially pricing the Onos quite highly. Idea being - it's more difficult to drop an early Onos egg because the price would be high - but the commander can then make this cheaper by investing into egg production.
Please post changes in update to Steam game news, because not everyone check your site. I want read update notes directly from Steam, like for all other games.
Which files would these changes be in? Can someone post diffs so we can see the 'real' changelog? :)
I'm experiencing severe screen shattering and fps drops whenever I engage in combat.
I wasn't getting playable fps during the whole beta phase but the patch just before 1.0
significantly smoothed my game. But now, it's back to unplayable state again.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)
+1
I lost count of how many posts on this topic have started out with "I haven't played the new patch yet, but....."
NO, no "butts", play first, then form an opinion.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives" is relatively ambiguous phrasing. It's obvious what happened to anybody who's following the TRes Onos controversy, but I can see how the typical player would be confused.
I get that 6v6 works for competitive play, but that's not how the PUBLIC like to play. Seeing as they're the ones buying it, I would think we would be wise to cater to what they like to play and not what they don't.
This is a business first and foremost, and you don't make money in business by telling the customers what they want. Any business that does will find that the customers will likely give them the finger. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny how the largest company in the world did exactly that... My bet is you own a few of their gadgets and use several of their services.
Searching for perfection is not a bad thing and all software companies that survive do just that, thus updates.
The problem stems from people looking at the changelog on the site and immediately going to the forum to complain. So when you add this to the changelog..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they'll misread the vagueness and assume Onos requires three hives for t.res and p.res.
TRES COMMANDER EGG DROP FOR ONOS IS MOVED TO 3 HIVES,
ONOS MAY STILL BE PURCHASED WITH 75 PRES AT ANY TIME.....
Do people not remember the game before pre-evolved eggs? it is possible to save 75 PRES, marines do it too for Exo's... I really wish people would play for a couple days adjust to the changes, play new strats and then give feedback. Anywho... I love the passion here, see you all in game :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tres Commander... dude whats the new team? Theres gonna be Three commanders!?!?!?
Are two marine or are two alien? Or is it a new team... dude I bet its a new team!
Onos, thats the one with the two miniguns isnt it? We can get it with Pres, how do we get pres?
What is the current conversion rate on your E-store for pres? Like if I spent a dollar would I get 100?
Can you please link me to New Strats? It sounds like a good game and I will deffo give you some feedback on it!
Just a thought, some else also commented on it, where does the stats come from - server types and so on? With some simple math it's easy to see that
the number of players (slots on serever) also affects balance. I'm sure other have come to the conclusion that a 12vs12 server
favours marines IF they take advantage of it (it's harder for aliens to take advantage of the added number).Why?
Because regardless of the number of players the damage from weapons stay the same. One could argue that for a
balanced game the amount of potential damage per attack and total amount of armour would always stay the same and be evenly
distributed among each sides players. That would be weird... So, we are stuck with this model BUT it would be nice
if we could get stats based on number of players (do we have it already?) so that it can be an official number
of players the balancing is based on. A 6vs6 is not the same as a 12vs12.
Thoughts? Ideas? Random banter in response??
With the fade being useless in NS2, everyone saves for Onos. Therefore, at the same time in the game you get 5-6 Onos rushing and taking ground. Since the Onos is so easy to play, any noob can do it. If the fade were boosted and the skill depth of the NS1 fade added back in then more people would take that, much evening out the game.
Similarly, the marines lack the HMG JP combo which was deadly to Onos in a skilled player's hands. The lack of JP HMG allows one low skilled Onos player to dominate low skilled marines. A much better approach is to have a high skill fade with focus-like swipes (as alt fire?) half balance the alien team against JP marines with HMGs.
Tres Onos block until 3 hives is just a quick fix and doesn't address the lack of skill depth in NS2 compared to NS1.
i'm having a whale of a time with 2-hittable fade (espectially camo) on pub servers. it seems that people use 2-hittable fade all the time in competitive games.
the fact that it's inferior to onos is made irrelevant by the new tres onos 3-hive requirement, because it's now a viable choice for tres drops.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one uses Fade. It's flat out bad. Lerk is better.
Exo is extremely quick to make and powerfull...
Nerfed onos (3 hives for onos egg was required tho) and buffed exo lol, nerfed aliens so hard that is just sad, imma only play marine until they balance this.
Any server you would join before this patch it was hard to join marines because everyone wanted to, now it is gonna be impossible (publics).
Anyway, im worried about some of these changes...
Just remove shift egg gestation, its wrong anyway, give it to the hive, and make it so that shifts have to echo eggs to spots. makes much more sense.
I played with a guy last night who went 40-50 and 1 with the Fade. He's pretty much the reason why we won the game (The Marines had some good players, plus a good commander).
Not a great example, but it's clear that there are some people who really know how to use them. Maybe people just need more practice?
Not a great example, but it's clear that there are some people who really know how to use them. Maybe people just need more practice?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah... those people are probably the same people who play starcraft2 and make 5 stargates carrier off 1-base, then whine when they get beaten in early game because they thought their best strategy was to save up for their 'hero' unit because the intermediary units aren't as strong as the 'hero' unit.
the marines aren't sitting around... if everyone refuses to use lerk and fade and just saves up for fast pres onos then you should lose against any competent marine team.
early lerk and fade can win games if played by competent players.
early lerk and fade can win games if played by <b>competent</b> players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ftfy