<!--quoteo(post=2007471:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:14 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please be polite. The truth is though, nerfing Marines isn't going to make Aliens more fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I spend my whole day being polite, this is internet the land of freedom and liberty! We do what we want within reasonably moderated bounds! LONG LIVE LIBERTY!
<!--quoteo(post=2007479:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:18 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 12:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007479"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A reward is something extra you get. Right now you're rewarded with the same ###### damage a skulk is supposed to do. That isn't a reward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seriously... I give up...
You sit here spouting complains about everything, all you serve to do is drown out the legitimate complaints where aliens could be reasonably improved. Complaining about everything wont actually get anything changed.
<!--quoteo(post=2007487:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:21 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously... I give up...
You sit here spouting complains about everything, all you serve to do is drown out the legitimate complaints where aliens could be reasonably improved. Complaining about everything wont actually get anything changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the list he provided was pretty reasonable.
Temphage: Oh, sure, take a phrase and hang on to that. Way to argument! Let me re-iterate: there were beta builds where your bite cone was as big as the current, except all hits dealt the same 75 dmg. Skulks were OP as hell and you basically couldn't miss a bite when even thinking of biting marine. This current system is much more balanced. It favours accuracy while still allowing newer players to land some hits. I do not see a problem with the current bite model it really, except the ones I stated above.
<!--quoteo(post=2007487:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:21 AM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 3 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seriously... I give up...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. The only thing you've ever said in this thread is "LOLOOL LERN 2 PLAY U SCRUBS" in a variety of different ways. I won't miss you. I will still wait for your FADE vs. THREE SHOTGUNS video though.
The Steam forums are clogged with people voicing the same complaint. The marine team is constantly stacked and aliens are losing more and more games on a routine basis. Aliens bail out of the game early every round and quit because it stopped being fun, all they do is feed kills to the marines. These forums don't have a single thread saying 'alien feature X is imbalanced!' for a reason.
These are not problems that just magically go away because you wish them away.
I really enjoy playing as aliens but I feel like the marines are much more cathartic to play though; perhaps the aliens would be more fun if they were more predatory/xenomorph-ie.
<!--quoteo(post=2007492:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007492"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good. The only thing you've ever said in this thread is "LOLOOL LERN 2 PLAY U SCRUBS" in a variety of different ways. I won't miss you. I will still wait for your FADE vs. THREE SHOTGUNS video though.
The Steam forums are clogged with people voicing the same complaint. The marine team is constantly stacked and aliens are losing more and more games on a routine basis. Aliens bail out of the game early every round and quit because it stopped being fun, all they do is feed kills to the marines. These forums don't have a single thread saying 'alien feature X is imbalanced!' for a reason.
These are not problems that just magically go away because you wish them away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007481:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:19 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 2 2012, 05:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I spend my whole day being polite, this is internet the land of freedom and liberty! We do what we want within reasonably moderated bounds! LONG LIVE LIBERTY!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Online Disinhibition Effect at its finest. xP
Yes, lets focus on what should be done to increase "funitude" ? I know there are a couple nice lists on this thread and if devs read the thread and use just one idea it'll be worth it. So let em fly boys ! :D
No need to trash talk anyone here. Like I said, everyone is here for the betterment of the game so please put your egos aside and try being as understanding as you can. If you have a point then put as much explanation behind it as possible, if someone disagrees then state why beyond personal attacks.
<!--quoteo(post=2007497:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:27 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 08:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Online Disinhibition Effect at its finest. xP
Yes, lets focus on what should be done to increase "funitude" ? I know there are a couple nice lists on this thread and if devs read the thread and use just one idea it'll be worth it. So let em fly boys ! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now if only I could manage it in RL....
Seriously though, your manner is an excellent model for all! (no sarcasm) Out of deference to you being OP my last post has been moderated, so much for liberty.
<!--quoteo(post=2007489:date=Nov 3 2012, 03:24 AM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 3 2012, 03:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought the list he provided was pretty reasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the list he provided is full of whine, exaggerations and misunderstandings. He doesn't know how the game works and can't be bothered to learn, so he just spams blown-out-of-proportion complaint after complaint. Granted, some of the things he mentioned have a seed of truth in them and could be thought need some tweking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There will be situations where a Level 3 Armor / Level 3 Weapon Marine with a rifle goes up against a horde of Skulks with no traits and no abilities. Of course the Marine will decimate them, and should, because of those differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single A3/W3 marine vs a 'horde of skulks' and they see no problem with the marine decimating them on a routine basis.
Riiiiiight... either this guy is totally out of touch with how completely impotent Carapace is, or... I don't know what, maybe they designed the game with the intention of forcing the Alien players to sit in the spawn queue over and over.
What if aliens each class had a ability slot and you could pick one of 2 or something.
Instead of there only being one way to play each class of alien. What if you could play a ranged skulk, by giving up melee, or get an attack that costs more energy but does more dmg when biting from behind. Or maybe you could get an attack that did more dmg vs structures but less vs players.
Surely we can come up with more options right?, i mean a skulk with a structure ability, would play in another way sneaking behind enemy lines and being able to kill structures faster, but doing worse vs player.
It just seems like aliens is about hiding and flanking and such, but the game doesnt reward you in any way shape or form for doing so. You dont get more dmg from attack then in the back, or slowing them or something.
From reading this thread it's quite clear the problem with Aliens against marines is not only their tech shortages, absolute requirement to get that 2nd hive and vulnerability to phase gates and instant marine rushes but also the fact that they require more teamwork and co-operation to work effectively. A marine team on the other hand can play well without trying all that hard. He doesn't have to try and get close to the alien by waiting on the roof for a minute, he can just walk in and blast away from a mile away.
Furthermore they don't need to expand nearly as much as the aliens and thus spread themselves out dangerously thin and they don't have the vulnerability of cyst chains. Alien game play feels very unrewarding in comparison. A player spends a good 30 seconds just running to a spot to do something while a marine can phase gate there. Same with spawning, it's ridiculous that aliens take longer to spawn then a marine.
The Aliens really need a stealth kill/backstop bonus. If a player managers to sneak up behind a marine and attack his efforts should be rewarded with an instant kill on non exo marines.
Today I have played 12 games, of which Aliens won 3. In each of those 3 games it took Aliens an extremely long time to finally crush the last marine base even when they had total map control.
<!--quoteo(post=2007518:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:44 AM:name=RMJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RMJ @ Nov 3 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if aliens each class had a ability slot and you could pick one of 2 or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking of at least changing the upgrade / hive system, so that Hives only unlock the number of upgrades you can get, but you can put whatever you want in there. So at Hive 1 you only have one evolution slot, but (provided it's researched) you can put whatever upgrade you want, so a cloaked skulk can actually be chosen by the player without the Khaam having to cripple his team by making the idiotic Shade First griefing maneuver.
Perhaps instead of straight damage upgrades skulks could recieve a bonus that turns the 25 damage cone to the 50 damage cone and the 50 damage cone to be part of the 75 damage. Something to help skulks scale into late game. Xenocide is worthless too, especially with the current res model.
I think the aliens are heaps of fun, its very satisfying taking down a whole group of marines with one skulk :) Although in saying that if marines get upgraded armour its a lot less fun, some kind of damage perk for the skulks would be useful late game!
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited November 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2007552:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:13 PM:name=ChickenOfWar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ChickenOfWar @ Nov 2 2012, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps instead of straight damage upgrades skulks could recieve a bonus that turns the 25 damage cone to the 50 damage cone and the 50 damage cone to be part of the 75 damage. Something to help skulks scale into late game. Xenocide is worthless too, especially with the current res model.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is similar to the Alien armor scaling with number of hives. Charlie doesn't want hidden modifiers - hence why the armor change and your suggestion aren't in the game. Your perk is saving res for another life form that is better suited for late game. If you die.. then you either made a costly mistake or need to beg the commander for another egg. Either way it'll be fairly difficult to balance skulks for late game and not have them overpowered early game.
<!--quoteo(post=2007585:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:35 PM:name=souldaTTT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (souldaTTT @ Nov 2 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007585"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the aliens are heaps of fun, its very satisfying taking down a whole group of marines with one skulk :) Although in saying that if marines get upgraded armour its a lot less fun, some kind of damage perk for the skulks would be useful late game!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gotta love them tasty noobies. :) Probs won't work in a week though.
<!--quoteo(post=2007589:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:36 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 2 2012, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is similar to the Alien armor scaling with number of hives. Charlie doesn't want hidden modifiers - hence why the armor change and your suggestion aren't in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont mean a hidden bonus I mean a researched upgrade, just like the weapon and armor upgrades for marines. Maybe this buff instead of xenocide?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your perk is saving res for another life form that is better suited for late game. If you die.. then you either made a costly mistake or need to beg the commander for another egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on now, marines don't have to risk their res or beg their commander to be effective in the late game. They just need upgrades.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either way it'll be fairly difficult to balance skulks for late game and not have them overpowered early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh, no it wont. Not if it's a researched upgrade that scales the skulks for late game play.
<!--quoteo(post=2007589:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:36 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 2 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Charlie doesn't want hidden modifiers - hence why the armor change and your suggestion aren't in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a quick question. How are Marines upgrades not hidden ? Its a lot easier for Marines to see 3 hives and say "Hm, they have 3 upgrades (or whatever the system is ) " where as aliens just see an Arms Lab and guess what their upgrades are off of how many bites or timing in the game ? Hell you can get two arms labs really earlier and pump out upgrades at a really fast rate.
<!--quoteo(post=2007589:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:36 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Nov 3 2012, 01:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is similar to the Alien armor scaling with number of hives. Charlie doesn't want hidden modifiers - hence why the armor change and your suggestion aren't in the game. Your perk is saving res for another life form that is better suited for late game. If you die.. then you either made a costly mistake or need to beg the commander for another egg. Either way it'll be fairly difficult to balance skulks for late game and not have them overpowered early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a question about the "no hidden modifiers" rule. If this is the case, why do alien classes have different armour types/weapons have different damage classes?
i'd like to see the partial damage numbers increased. if it were increased to 35/55/75, you would require 5 glancing bites to kill an a0 marine instead of 7. doing 25/50/75 just means that new players have a really steep curve to improve on.
another thing that's kind of ridiculous is that alien melee has glancing damage while the marine melees have no aim requirement at all.
<!--quoteo(post=2007606:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:46 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 2 2012, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have a question about the "no hidden modifiers" rule. If this is the case, why do alien classes have different armour types/weapons have different damage classes?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think the idea is "no hidden modifiers unless they're intuitive". i.e. it makes sense that a flamethrower would kill infestation faster than a bullet, or that an onos gore would hit harder against armored targets than a skulk bite.
I think there are a number of changes that can and should be made to alien tech/upgrades to improve their build variety - like reducing dependence on Carapace - but it's not productive to get balance mixed into that discussion. Balance right now is pretty good(obviously not perfect), this is backed up by hard data. Making arguments based on the false premise that aliens are gimped and need buffs just discredits everything else.
<!--quoteo(post=2007622:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:54 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 3 2012, 01:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007622"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the idea is "no hidden modifiers unless they're intuitive". i.e. it makes sense that a flamethrower would kill infestation faster than a bullet, or that an onos gore would hit harder against armored targets than a skulk bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What about shotgun dealing less damage to onos than an lmg?
Comments
I spend my whole day being polite, this is internet the land of freedom and liberty! We do what we want within reasonably moderated bounds! LONG LIVE LIBERTY!
Seriously... I give up...
You sit here spouting complains about everything, all you serve to do is drown out the legitimate complaints where aliens could be reasonably improved. Complaining about everything wont actually get anything changed.
You sit here spouting complains about everything, all you serve to do is drown out the legitimate complaints where aliens could be reasonably improved. Complaining about everything wont actually get anything changed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought the list he provided was pretty reasonable.
Good. The only thing you've ever said in this thread is "LOLOOL LERN 2 PLAY U SCRUBS" in a variety of different ways. I won't miss you. I will still wait for your FADE vs. THREE SHOTGUNS video though.
The Steam forums are clogged with people voicing the same complaint. The marine team is constantly stacked and aliens are losing more and more games on a routine basis. Aliens bail out of the game early every round and quit because it stopped being fun, all they do is feed kills to the marines. These forums don't have a single thread saying 'alien feature X is imbalanced!' for a reason.
These are not problems that just magically go away because you wish them away.
The Steam forums are clogged with people voicing the same complaint. The marine team is constantly stacked and aliens are losing more and more games on a routine basis. Aliens bail out of the game early every round and quit because it stopped being fun, all they do is feed kills to the marines. These forums don't have a single thread saying 'alien feature X is imbalanced!' for a reason.
These are not problems that just magically go away because you wish them away.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And all you do is exaggerate.
The Online Disinhibition Effect at its finest. xP
Yes, lets focus on what should be done to increase "funitude" ? I know there are a couple nice lists on this thread and if devs read the thread and use just one idea it'll be worth it. So let em fly boys ! :D
No need to trash talk anyone here. Like I said, everyone is here for the betterment of the game so please put your egos aside and try being as understanding as you can. If you have a point then put as much explanation behind it as possible, if someone disagrees then state why beyond personal attacks.
Yes, lets focus on what should be done to increase "funitude" ? I know there are a couple nice lists on this thread and if devs read the thread and use just one idea it'll be worth it. So let em fly boys ! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now if only I could manage it in RL....
Seriously though, your manner is an excellent model for all! (no sarcasm)
Out of deference to you being OP my last post has been moderated, so much for liberty.
As for fun, buff aliens (mostly skulks)!
I thought the list he provided is full of whine, exaggerations and misunderstandings. He doesn't know how the game works and can't be bothered to learn, so he just spams blown-out-of-proportion complaint after complaint. Granted, some of the things he mentioned have a seed of truth in them and could be thought need some tweking.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There will be situations where a Level 3 Armor / Level 3 Weapon Marine with a rifle goes up against a horde of Skulks with no traits and no abilities. Of course the Marine will decimate them, and should, because of those differences.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A single A3/W3 marine vs a 'horde of skulks' and they see no problem with the marine decimating them on a routine basis.
Riiiiiight... either this guy is totally out of touch with how completely impotent Carapace is, or... I don't know what, maybe they designed the game with the intention of forcing the Alien players to sit in the spawn queue over and over.
Instead of there only being one way to play each class of alien. What if you could play a ranged skulk, by giving up melee, or get an attack that costs more energy but does more dmg when biting from behind. Or maybe you could get an attack that did more dmg vs structures but less vs players.
Surely we can come up with more options right?, i mean a skulk with a structure ability, would play in another way sneaking behind enemy lines and being able to kill structures faster, but doing worse vs player.
It just seems like aliens is about hiding and flanking and such, but the game doesnt reward you in any way shape or form for doing so. You dont get more dmg from attack then in the back, or slowing them or something.
Furthermore they don't need to expand nearly as much as the aliens and thus spread themselves out dangerously thin and they don't have the vulnerability of cyst chains. Alien game play feels very unrewarding in comparison. A player spends a good 30 seconds just running to a spot to do something while a marine can phase gate there. Same with spawning, it's ridiculous that aliens take longer to spawn then a marine.
The Aliens really need a stealth kill/backstop bonus. If a player managers to sneak up behind a marine and attack his efforts should be rewarded with an instant kill on non exo marines.
Today I have played 12 games, of which Aliens won 3. In each of those 3 games it took Aliens an extremely long time to finally crush the last marine base even when they had total map control.
I was thinking of at least changing the upgrade / hive system, so that Hives only unlock the number of upgrades you can get, but you can put whatever you want in there. So at Hive 1 you only have one evolution slot, but (provided it's researched) you can put whatever upgrade you want, so a cloaked skulk can actually be chosen by the player without the Khaam having to cripple his team by making the idiotic Shade First griefing maneuver.
This is similar to the Alien armor scaling with number of hives. Charlie doesn't want hidden modifiers - hence why the armor change and your suggestion aren't in the game. Your perk is saving res for another life form that is better suited for late game. If you die.. then you either made a costly mistake or need to beg the commander for another egg. Either way it'll be fairly difficult to balance skulks for late game and not have them overpowered early game.
Gotta love them tasty noobies. :) Probs won't work in a week though.
I dont mean a hidden bonus I mean a researched upgrade, just like the weapon and armor upgrades for marines. Maybe this buff instead of xenocide?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your perk is saving res for another life form that is better suited for late game. If you die.. then you either made a costly mistake or need to beg the commander for another egg.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on now, marines don't have to risk their res or beg their commander to be effective in the late game. They just need upgrades.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either way it'll be fairly difficult to balance skulks for late game and not have them overpowered early game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh, no it wont. Not if it's a researched upgrade that scales the skulks for late game play.
Just a quick question. How are Marines upgrades not hidden ? Its a lot easier for Marines to see 3 hives and say "Hm, they have 3 upgrades (or whatever the system is ) " where as aliens just see an Arms Lab and guess what their upgrades are off of how many bites or timing in the game ? Hell you can get two arms labs really earlier and pump out upgrades at a really fast rate.
I have a question about the "no hidden modifiers" rule. If this is the case, why do alien classes have different armour types/weapons have different damage classes?
another thing that's kind of ridiculous is that alien melee has glancing damage while the marine melees have no aim requirement at all.
i think the idea is "no hidden modifiers unless they're intuitive". i.e. it makes sense that a flamethrower would kill infestation faster than a bullet, or that an onos gore would hit harder against armored targets than a skulk bite.
What about shotgun dealing less damage to onos than an lmg?