I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.
I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea would work great for something like combat mod! Still for an RTS/(fps) like ns2 its too uncoordinated. Overall I agree with some of your points, ns2 has absolutely amazing shooter mechanics but lacks major tactile depth. The difficulty is making a system that both works to make a fun FPS and has the depth of a RTS is that..... Well its hard, need I say more :)
Anyway give it some time, UWE are dedicated to ns2: there are a lot of cool things in the wings
I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea would work great for something like combat mod! Still for an RTS/(fps) like ns2 its too uncoordinated. Overall I agree with some of your points, ns2 has absolutely amazing shooter mechanics but lacks major tactile depth. The difficulty is making a system that both works to make a fun FPS and has the depth of a RTS is that..... Well its hard, need I say more :)
Anyway give it some time, UWE are dedicated to ns2: there are a lot of cool things in the wings
The people whose avatars I see on this forum most frequently also happen to be the ones struggling to play the race that requires more practice. Probably just a coincidence.
I find aliens fun as hell. When I have a 3:2 ratio as a skulk and I'm playing aggressively I can feel pretty good about that, and the days where I feel a little less badass I can hide with a buddy and ambush marines all day. I don't feel weak as an alien at all. When I'm an lmg marine and I take some lerk-spike hits I think "aw ###### now I'm dead".
I do feel kind of weak as a fade (though it is still not at all lacking in fun factor). Too many times I've known that the guy who is 30-2 is around the corner with a shotgun ALONE and gone in only to have him hit me once as I'm closing and force me to leave. Sometimes he then rushes around the corner and kills me with his pistol. Besides these sort of instances though aliens don't lack in fun factor at all.
It seems to me that too many people are just unable to die as an egg a couple of times without it ruining their day.
<!--quoteo(post=2008400:date=Nov 3 2012, 10:33 AM:name=DanielD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DanielD @ Nov 3 2012, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The people whose avatars I see on this forum most frequently also happen to be the ones struggling to play the race that requires more practice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Stop right there.
If one team (not class, an <b><u>entire</u></b> team) requires more skill and practice to play than the other does then what you have is an unbalanced game.
The aliens should require a different play-style, not a more skilled player. If one side is easier to play then that side is going to dominate by a landslide.
<!--quoteo(post=2007640:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:01 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 2 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007640"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think it's inarguable that marines have an easier time on the FPS front. was playing on garfu's pub stomp server and when garfu+stackers were on marines they were going like 30-1 and such, and when they switched to aliens it was more like 20-8. but for some reason the alien strategic side makes it so that even if aliens aren't winning as many tactical battles, they can still win the game (probably due to onos and fade timings).
i'm not sure whether this kind of asymmetry is good, or can be considered "balance."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like 20-8? The only time I had 7 deaths as an alien yesterday was when I had 120 kills.
you have to realize that most fps gamers have 100s of hours of practice at aiming hitscan weapons. most of them have 0 hours playing skulk. so of course skulk will require more practice than marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2008418:date=Nov 3 2012, 02:39 PM:name=Garfu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Garfu @ Nov 3 2012, 02:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008418"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->More like 20-8? The only time I had 7 deaths as an alien yesterday was when I had 120 kills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you had like xx-6 (number being in the teens or low 20s) one game i was playing on your side, plus i wasn't referring just to you, but to the people who seemed to follow you to each team.
<!--quoteo(post=2008420:date=Nov 3 2012, 10:39 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 3 2012, 10:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008420"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have to realize that most fps gamers have 100s of hours of practice at aiming hitscan weapons. most of them have 0 hours playing skulk. so of course skulk will require more practice than marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That still does not change the fact that aliens become outclassed once the marines start unlocking upgrades.
The one issue I might highlight is that on the alien side, early on it doesn't feel like there's much they can do to help their commander, who expands more or less alone. It's definitely an advantage that the alien commander doesn't need anyone to hold E on a building, but I think maybe part of what people find fun about marines is being part of an RTS, where they can help set up a base. Operative word being 'help'. The effects of rushing into a marine base as a skulk, drawing their attention, getting a few hits, and then dying, while possibly benefitial to the hive mind, are not really so visible, especially to new players.
<!--quoteo(post=2008416:date=Nov 3 2012, 06:38 PM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 3 2012, 06:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008416"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stop right there.
If one team (not class, an <b><u>entire</u></b> team) requires more skill and practice to play than the other does then what you have is an unbalanced game.
The aliens should require a different play-style, not a more skilled player. If one side is easier to play then that side is going to dominate by a landslide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement isn't true. Starcraft BW was relatively balanced, and yet Protoss was by far the easiest race to play. At high levels, this didn't matter, but at lower tiers it was more noticeable. You can make the argument that having one race be harder to learn is a bad idea because it discourages new players, but it doesn't mean its not balanced.
NS2 is a relatively niche game (sadly). The benefit of this is that we won't have too many "casuals", and most people on the servers after 6 months are going to be good at this game. Alien skill requirements shouldn't be an issue then.
<!--quoteo(post=2008432:date=Nov 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one issue I might highlight is that on the alien side, early on it doesn't feel like there's much they can do to help their commander, who expands more or less alone. It's definitely an advantage that the alien commander doesn't need anyone to hold E on a building, but I think maybe part of what people find fun about marines is being part of an RTS, where they can help set up a base. Operative word being 'help'. The effects of rushing into a marine base as a skulk, drawing their attention, getting a few hits, and then dying, while possibly benefitial to the hive mind, are not really so visible, especially to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an issue with alien commanders that don't communicate or give orders, because it's not 100% necessary like it is for marines. Plus people who want to be a builder for the aliens can actually make their own buildings, albeit only 2.
Explain to me then why there is ALWAYS a queue to play Marines, and Aliens always have open spots ? Why do groups ALWAYS stack the Marine team ?
It aint just because the Marines are familiar... hell one would expect the popular one for newbies is the Aliens, they sound cool as hell... wall crawling, building , teleporting , flying and big ass space cow. However its the Marines side that every server I have visited has a queue on, and the Aliens ALWAYS have a slot open.
HOWEVER , I am confidant in UWE and that they will work thier magic like they did with NS 1 (which had a really awfull balance when it first launched as well, yes ?).
<!--quoteo(post=2008438:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:00 AM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Nov 3 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008438"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me then why there is ALWAYS a queue to play Marines, and Aliens always have open spots ? Why do groups ALWAYS stack the Marine team ?
It aint just because the Marines are familiar... hell one would expect the popular one for newbies is the Aliens, they sound cool as hell... wall crawling, building , teleporting , flying and big ass space cow. However its the Marines side that every server I have visited has a queue on, and the Aliens ALWAYS have a slot open.
HOWEVER , I am confidant in UWE and that they will work thier magic like they did with NS 1 (which had a really awfull balance when it first launched as well, yes ?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance issues aside, the marines are just more fun to play. Nice atompshere with flashlight and dark hallways, shorter respawn times, don't have to re-equip upgrades every time you die, direct power upgrades are given to you by the comm or are cheap to buy with res, jetpacks and exos, better order system and minimap, jetpacks and exos, meaty combat and powerful guns blast away the alien foes, stumbling upon hidden alien buildings, jetpacks and exos.
<!--quoteo(post=2008471:date=Nov 3 2012, 07:36 PM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 3 2012, 07:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Balance issues aside, the marines are just more fun to play. Nice atompshere with flashlight and dark hallways, shorter respawn times, don't have to re-equip upgrades every time you die, direct power upgrades are given to you by the comm or are cheap to buy with res, jetpacks and exos, better order system and minimap, jetpacks and exos, meaty combat and powerful guns blast away the alien foes, stumbling upon hidden alien buildings, jetpacks and exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much that. Hell if you die, you can go grab your gun and don't even have to put res into it.
Playing as a marine, you get a better feeling of teamwork because you and everyone else are getting movement/build orders. Those are mostly automated orders, so even if the commander isn't very interactive, you'll still see groups of marines moving together because they have been given common goals thanks to an inherent gameplay mechanic. And because you're actually required to build stuff, you get the feeling you have a distinct impact on how your team progresses.
Playing as an alien, you're not needed to build stuff, the commander can do this on his own. So I think some players will feel less useful, and because there are no orders given out by the commander it's less common to see aliens move in groups. That makes for a different experience. I'm guessing that's the thing that can make alien side less fun than marine side for some people.
<!--quoteo(post=2008501:date=Nov 3 2012, 01:07 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 01:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><a href="http://i.imgur.com/vx9jx.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/vx9jx.png</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love it. Would need tons of tweaking for balancing - but you're on the right track.
<!--quoteo(post=2008499:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:06 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Nov 3 2012, 12:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playing as a marine, you get a better feeling of teamwork because you and everyone else are getting movement/build orders. Those are mostly automated orders, so even if the commander isn't very interactive, you'll still see groups of marines moving together because they have been given common goals thanks to an inherent gameplay mechanic. And because you're actually required to build stuff, you get the feeling you have a distinct impact on how your team progresses.
Playing as an alien, you're not needed to build stuff, the commander can do this on his own. So I think some players will feel less useful, and because there are no orders given out by the commander it's less common to see aliens move in groups. That makes for a different experience. I'm guessing that's the thing that can make alien side less fun than marine side for some people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Khammander <i>can</i> give orders, people just tend not to. I do, but usually end up regretting it because EVERYONE will go towards the waypoint regardless of what it is. 'Threat' is a lot more important than 'Expanding here', dammit.
<!--quoteo(post=2008510:date=Nov 3 2012, 08:14 PM:name=Crazy Goat)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crazy Goat @ Nov 3 2012, 08:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Love it. Would need tons of tweaking for balancing - but you're on the right track.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://i.imgur.com/bEctn.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/bEctn.png</a>
Revised the parasite tree. It was the first one I made so it was full of kind of silly abilities.
In general, each tree has two paths of different play. Leap, for example, has a high-end ability that requires skill and timing (leap bite), or an ability that doesn't take skill or timing (pounce) that lets you keep a marine down (probably in sacrifice of your life).
The Terror tree has abilities that culminate in the skills we already have - camo and silence - and a skill ability that requires careful timing (ambush) that is useful for both branches.
If you take out all the stuff that are passive abilities (which are mostly just to help the alien ride the power curve) and abilities we already have, you're left with only a handful (and the parasite tree). If you further remove the stuff from NS1 you're left with a few things like specific damage type resistances which are at the top tier of the Carapace tree, and the Parasite tree. The reason the Parasite tree is so large is because Parasite is the skulks' "thing", so they have ways to improve upon it. One branch lets you debuff and harass enemies, the other lets you share lots of intel with your team. The top-tier ability for Parasite lets skulks add chaos to a fight. Snarks in HL1 didn't do anything for damage, they just annoyed you, which is what the intent is (think Babblers!).
<!--quoteo(post=2008537:date=Nov 4 2012, 04:38 AM:name=kalakuja)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kalakuja @ Nov 4 2012, 04:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No res for kills. 1-2 lifeform per game no matter how good you do. Sort of makes playing very unrewarding<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> exactly. the safety strategy to win the game is to avoid most of the unnecessary battles. sit back chill because u will not have any gain in res killing, or even res, losing the res you will have dying. defend only when necessary or push when you are quite behind in number of nodes. then the rest would be a major battle of jps/exos vs onos by 15~17 minutes.
gg close game. or cry trying hard to kill marines having less res than someone turtling extra hard.
<!--quoteo(post=2007817:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:52 AM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 3 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so either it is 1. marine (game??) balance not related to aliens fun factor 2. you think being spammed gls fun.
k i will learn to read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll stop posting about this after this last snip. For one, you are dodging the remark that you made earlier that I proved wrong. The remark you made tried to dismiss my opinion.
This thread is about the alien fun-factor, not the balance of the game. Yes, GLs are a bit OP. But I'm pretty sure people have been having fun as aliens even with the GL introduced into the game. What patch was that? Not sure, but I'm pretty sure people played the game after that, even aliens (we are at 1.0 now).
And I never said getting spammed by GLs is fun. If you want to cry about GLs then, please, start a thread or post on the 50 (THAT'S NOT EXACT) other threads on how to fix GL spam.
So you can keep putting words in my... post? But it won't make you any more correct.
*edit* and your post above... why are you playing NS2 if you're just going to complain about the game on the forums rather than try to fix the problem?
On this topic can someone explain to me the reasoning behind having to re-select my upgrades and then SPEND MORE TIME IN AN EGG every time I re-spawn. Why can I not just keep my upgrades and then if I choose to change at a later point evolve again. The Devs seem to like forcing you to watch a bar in the middle of the screen slowly fill to 100.
So far my experience is that the Devs deserve credit for making a fairly balanced game overall, the aliens can and do often win but somewhere along the line balancing the alien team meant sacrificing some of the more fun/power aspects that went along with it. I think people have nailed it when they say as a marine you spend your 20 res and you get a shotgun and you know you can kick ass, watch your weapons upgrade through comms and know your then gonna kick even more ass. As an alien I know I'm gonna have to spend 50 res before I feel the least bit powerful and capable of killing anything on a consistent basis and even then I have to work hard and stealthily to do it. While I appreciate their existence as a part of the Alien flavour and as have others have said if anything playing well using these methods needs to be more rewarding sometimes I just don't want to use stealth and I don't want to use advanced coordination. Sometimes I just want to ###### get in their faces with my upgraded xenomorph and kill some marines! Think of Aliens the movie, the aliens can use stealth to attack unprepared marines and they attack together but 1 on 1 with a pulse rifle the battle is still going to be pretty even and certainly not if the Alien gets close. The only time I feel that alien power in NS2 is the 5% of the time the game allows me to use a 75 res Onos :(
Also in this thread I've read a lot of the Aliens will improve as you get better at them. I believe this to be true as my fade gets better I will feel stronger and better able to kill things but why design a game with such a huge team disparity? Where are the recoil mechanics for the marines? Or the friendly fire? Anything that would make it more difficult to play marines, why do they get such an easy ride? You can't just say ah well you've played an FPS before! Being good at counter-strike doesn't mean I'll be instantly good at Unreal Tournament or COD some of the skills are transferable but its still an entirely new game with new weapons, skills and mechanics. This is another huge reason you see so many marine stacks and alot fewer people want to play Alien.
Reading this thread I really have to wonder what game people are playing because it is not Natural Selection 2.
I really do not want to resort to "learn to play" responses but for once it truly seems to be the case here.
The two sides in the game are remarkably well balanced. This is seen in the win loss ratio between the two which is pretty close overall.
Indeed my experience has been the aliens win more than the Marines (still pretty close though).
As a Marine I have been on the receiving end of Fades that absolutely tear the crap out of Marines...repeatedly (get them Blink and they are a major hassle to deal with). Gorges able to heal from a distance makes Onos with their support really hard to beat. Skulks being able to set ambushes is unparalleled.
So yeah, you need to take longer to spawn and so on. Yes you need to need to evolve and take extra time to get something better. It is all part of the balance.
Personally I like playing Marines a bit more but mostly because they are easier to understand from a lifetime of playing Marines in FPS games. Still, since everyone and their brother seems to jump on Marines I have actually played more on the alien side and have had a ball doing so even though I am not very good (not very good at all).
Both sides have their pluses and minuses...that is the point. On the whole though they are both absolutely capable of winning the game and it does not require tricks or an overbalance of skill towards the aliens. Far from it.
Play a dozen games, six on each side against (at least) semi competent opponents, and then come back here and tell us how it went. Betting most here will find that no matter which side you are on the other side seems to have an advantage.
<!--quoteo(post=2009282:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:55 PM:name=Zerowantuthri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zerowantuthri @ Nov 3 2012, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2009282"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reading this thread I really have to wonder what game people are playing because it is not Natural Selection 2.
I really do not want to resort to "learn to play" responses but for once it truly seems to be the case here.
The two sides in the game are remarkably well balanced. This is seen in the win loss ratio between the two which is pretty close overall.
Indeed my experience has been the aliens win more than the Marines (still pretty close though).
As a Marine I have been on the receiving end of Fades that absolutely tear the crap out of Marines...repeatedly (get them Blink and they are a major hassle to deal with). Gorges able to heal from a distance makes Onos with their support really hard to beat. Skulks being able to set ambushes is unparalleled.
So yeah, you need to take longer to spawn and so on. Yes you need to need to evolve and take extra time to get something better. It is all part of the balance.
Personally I like playing Marines a bit more but mostly because they are easier to understand from a lifetime of playing Marines in FPS games. Still, since everyone and their brother seems to jump on Marines I have actually played more on the alien side and have had a ball doing so even though I am not very good (not very good at all).
Both sides have their pluses and minuses...that is the point. On the whole though they are both absolutely capable of winning the game and it does not require tricks or an overbalance of skill towards the aliens. Far from it.
Play a dozen games, six on each side against (at least) semi competent opponents, and then come back here and tell us how it went. Betting most here will find that no matter which side you are on the other side seems to have an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again I'll make the point of asking people who comment to actually read my post or even if you just looked at the title you'd see this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the balance. The balance as of right now is great, 49% Marines 51% Aliens, you aren't going to get much more perfect than that. This thread is about the fun factor of Aliens and feeling while playing Aliens not whether it is balanced as far as win loss percentages.
if they made the gorge as he was in ns1, you might get some of the fun factor back. they completely killed the class by limiting its use to build only two things, and even limit the hydras they can build. the game limits so much compared to what you could in ns1. this was just one example the game is filled with these restrictions...
<!--quoteo(post=2005736:date=Nov 1 2012, 10:59 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 1 2012, 10:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->the logic behind the lack is simple. suppose you play cs.
you can only use knife and the other team uses a pistol. you could use to have bunnyhop and all those stuff that could get you to the opponents fast. now your bunnyhop is taken away and opponents would avoid dark places and obstacles. fun or challenging?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knifing people in cs was actually really fun, especially on maps with less of the mass line of sight CS likes to code into there maps.
NS and NS2 both made there maps specifically with lack of los in mind, melee is always better the less los you have.
The CS example is also very bad because the knives very slow to attack or very fast with very little dmg. Killing someone with a knife in cs was rather slow and painful by comparison to how a skulk can effectively kill a marine in 3 seconds. (unless of course you got a back stab, but even then if a skulk sneaks up behind a marine in ns2 he can get 2-3 bites sometimes, (to coin a dnd phrase) before the marine gets into a stance. Anyone dies easily when caught flat footed =).
Skulks are also smaller then marines in CS which gives them a huge advantage in hitbox size. Skulks can also walk on walls/ceiling and wait in ambush they don't have to be the aggressor in a confrontation just merely a defender.
Furthermore Bhoping is such an unrealistic movement paradym I wish it had never existed. Wall Jumping on the other hand is pretty cool.
IMO In the current build aliens are very fun, I find skulks good early to mid game. Lerks are great early-late game, and lost effectiveness during end game but can still be viable as umpra/spore monkeys. Fades own pretty much whatever they do but focused fire from 2-3 marines is ouchy, and onos's seem to fit there role perfectly and are quite fun.
Overall this game has come a long way from beta I Love The combat now It feels so good. I watch players everyday pick up a trick here and there and become better in a flash at killing marines/aliens. As for NS1 being more fun I have to strongly disagree, I felt ns1 was a good game but NS2 beats it by far in every category with small exception to gorges. I do wish gorges had a few more buildings they could drop.
As to the Hydra's, I wonder if people would feel differently if marines could all spend something like 18 p.res each and have a room full of turrets...
I mean, the marines will spend 15 p.res for a one shot useless mine that can't kill one skulk. Why won't aliens spend 20 for 3 permanent-until-killed turrets that add up to big damage when using even the most basic teamwork?
I honestly don't know why more teams don't all just gorge immediately, and move out into the map to clog after building their Hydra's in the starter hive. It would make things infinitely easier on them at a stupid low cost and ultimately they would retain more resource towers to upgrade faster.
*shakes fist* Damn you logic!!!
(Ok, I can think of a few reasons why people don't do this. But admit it, you thought about how great it would be for a minute there didn't you?)
Comments
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png</a>
I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png</a>
I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea would work great for something like combat mod! Still for an RTS/(fps) like ns2 its too uncoordinated. Overall I agree with some of your points, ns2 has absolutely amazing shooter mechanics but lacks major tactile depth. The difficulty is making a system that both works to make a fun FPS and has the depth of a RTS is that..... Well its hard, need I say more :)
Anyway give it some time, UWE are dedicated to ns2: there are a lot of cool things in the wings
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/iiOE6.png</a>
I just imagine that each bubble costs exponentially more res / "evolutionary points" than the previous one, with the first bubble starting at 2. So upgrading to the top ability, which is 6 hexes deep, would cost 64 res. Upgrading an entire ability would cost 200-something points. It'd make you a badass, but would require serious investment.
Each ability could have a "genetic stability" level. If you die, you have a risk of losing items with high genetic instability. Something like the Xenocide would have very high stability because it requires you to die. The diamond carapace would have low stability, because the point is to protect you so you DON'T die. This way, lots of deaths would devolve aliens, but they would only really risk losing their best abilities. Parasite and the first couple ranks would be so hard to lose they might as well not even be losable.
Each tree is for only a specific lifeform, allowing you to upgrade your skulk, then play as Fade and invest in that, then go back to your upgraded skulk if you take too many Fade loses and lose your high-end abilities.
As you can see, Carapace has three levels of basic damage absorption - tier 1, 2, and 5, allowing them to keep up with the marine progress. The top tier ability would function by, for example, making Onos armor plating around the head and forelegs impervious to bullets (not fire or explosives) forcing you to aim at the eyes or attack from the flank, but it requires a huge investment of resources to get, and thus functions as "alien carapace level 4".
Whether or not these EXACT abilities are imbalanced is irrelevant. The point is, this would make aliens MUCH more fun to play and make them feel like much less of a one-trick pony. Each player would be able to customize his loadouts based on what he thinks will benefit him or the team the most. A skulk who invests points in viral parasites would, if the marine doesn't run off and get killed, be able to gradually infect the entire team until the parasites die, lending a huge amount of power to his team at the expense of a large amount of personal resources. Another skulk could invest in debuff parasites that allow him to unnerve the marine team and make them paranoid.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This idea would work great for something like combat mod! Still for an RTS/(fps) like ns2 its too uncoordinated. Overall I agree with some of your points, ns2 has absolutely amazing shooter mechanics but lacks major tactile depth. The difficulty is making a system that both works to make a fun FPS and has the depth of a RTS is that..... Well its hard, need I say more :)
Anyway give it some time, UWE are dedicated to ns2: there are a lot of cool things in the wings
I find aliens fun as hell. When I have a 3:2 ratio as a skulk and I'm playing aggressively I can feel pretty good about that, and the days where I feel a little less badass I can hide with a buddy and ambush marines all day. I don't feel weak as an alien at all. When I'm an lmg marine and I take some lerk-spike hits I think "aw ###### now I'm dead".
I do feel kind of weak as a fade (though it is still not at all lacking in fun factor). Too many times I've known that the guy who is 30-2 is around the corner with a shotgun ALONE and gone in only to have him hit me once as I'm closing and force me to leave. Sometimes he then rushes around the corner and kills me with his pistol. Besides these sort of instances though aliens don't lack in fun factor at all.
It seems to me that too many people are just unable to die as an egg a couple of times without it ruining their day.
Stop right there.
If one team (not class, an <b><u>entire</u></b> team) requires more skill and practice to play than the other does then what you have is an unbalanced game.
The aliens should require a different play-style, not a more skilled player. If one side is easier to play then that side is going to dominate by a landslide.
i'm not sure whether this kind of asymmetry is good, or can be considered "balance."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More like 20-8? The only time I had 7 deaths as an alien yesterday was when I had 120 kills.
you had like xx-6 (number being in the teens or low 20s) one game i was playing on your side, plus i wasn't referring just to you, but to the people who seemed to follow you to each team.
That still does not change the fact that aliens become outclassed once the marines start unlocking upgrades.
If one team (not class, an <b><u>entire</u></b> team) requires more skill and practice to play than the other does then what you have is an unbalanced game.
The aliens should require a different play-style, not a more skilled player. If one side is easier to play then that side is going to dominate by a landslide.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your first statement isn't true. Starcraft BW was relatively balanced, and yet Protoss was by far the easiest race to play. At high levels, this didn't matter, but at lower tiers it was more noticeable. You can make the argument that having one race be harder to learn is a bad idea because it discourages new players, but it doesn't mean its not balanced.
NS2 is a relatively niche game (sadly). The benefit of this is that we won't have too many "casuals", and most people on the servers after 6 months are going to be good at this game. Alien skill requirements shouldn't be an issue then.
<!--quoteo(post=2008432:date=Nov 3 2012, 06:53 PM:name=Katana314)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Katana314 @ Nov 3 2012, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2008432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The one issue I might highlight is that on the alien side, early on it doesn't feel like there's much they can do to help their commander, who expands more or less alone. It's definitely an advantage that the alien commander doesn't need anyone to hold E on a building, but I think maybe part of what people find fun about marines is being part of an RTS, where they can help set up a base. Operative word being 'help'. The effects of rushing into a marine base as a skulk, drawing their attention, getting a few hits, and then dying, while possibly benefitial to the hive mind, are not really so visible, especially to new players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an issue with alien commanders that don't communicate or give orders, because it's not 100% necessary like it is for marines. Plus people who want to be a builder for the aliens can actually make their own buildings, albeit only 2.
Why do groups ALWAYS stack the Marine team ?
It aint just because the Marines are familiar... hell one would expect the popular one for newbies is the Aliens, they sound cool as hell... wall crawling, building , teleporting , flying and big ass space cow.
However its the Marines side that every server I have visited has a queue on, and the Aliens ALWAYS have a slot open.
HOWEVER , I am confidant in UWE and that they will work thier magic like they did with NS 1 (which had a really awfull balance when it first launched as well, yes ?).
Why do groups ALWAYS stack the Marine team ?
It aint just because the Marines are familiar... hell one would expect the popular one for newbies is the Aliens, they sound cool as hell... wall crawling, building , teleporting , flying and big ass space cow.
However its the Marines side that every server I have visited has a queue on, and the Aliens ALWAYS have a slot open.
HOWEVER , I am confidant in UWE and that they will work thier magic like they did with NS 1 (which had a really awfull balance when it first launched as well, yes ?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Balance issues aside, the marines are just more fun to play. Nice atompshere with flashlight and dark hallways, shorter respawn times, don't have to re-equip upgrades every time you die, direct power upgrades are given to you by the comm or are cheap to buy with res, jetpacks and exos, better order system and minimap, jetpacks and exos, meaty combat and powerful guns blast away the alien foes, stumbling upon hidden alien buildings, jetpacks and exos.
Pretty much that. Hell if you die, you can go grab your gun and don't even have to put res into it.
Playing as an alien, you're not needed to build stuff, the commander can do this on his own. So I think some players will feel less useful, and because there are no orders given out by the commander it's less common to see aliens move in groups. That makes for a different experience. I'm guessing that's the thing that can make alien side less fun than marine side for some people.
Love it. Would need tons of tweaking for balancing - but you're on the right track.
Playing as an alien, you're not needed to build stuff, the commander can do this on his own. So I think some players will feel less useful, and because there are no orders given out by the commander it's less common to see aliens move in groups. That makes for a different experience. I'm guessing that's the thing that can make alien side less fun than marine side for some people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Khammander <i>can</i> give orders, people just tend not to. I do, but usually end up regretting it because EVERYONE will go towards the waypoint regardless of what it is. 'Threat' is a lot more important than 'Expanding here', dammit.
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/bEctn.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/bEctn.png</a>
Revised the parasite tree. It was the first one I made so it was full of kind of silly abilities.
In general, each tree has two paths of different play. Leap, for example, has a high-end ability that requires skill and timing (leap bite), or an ability that doesn't take skill or timing (pounce) that lets you keep a marine down (probably in sacrifice of your life).
The Terror tree has abilities that culminate in the skills we already have - camo and silence - and a skill ability that requires careful timing (ambush) that is useful for both branches.
If you take out all the stuff that are passive abilities (which are mostly just to help the alien ride the power curve) and abilities we already have, you're left with only a handful (and the parasite tree). If you further remove the stuff from NS1 you're left with a few things like specific damage type resistances which are at the top tier of the Carapace tree, and the Parasite tree. The reason the Parasite tree is so large is because Parasite is the skulks' "thing", so they have ways to improve upon it. One branch lets you debuff and harass enemies, the other lets you share lots of intel with your team. The top-tier ability for Parasite lets skulks add chaos to a fight. Snarks in HL1 didn't do anything for damage, they just annoyed you, which is what the intent is (think Babblers!).
exactly. the safety strategy to win the game is to avoid most of the unnecessary battles. sit back chill because u will not have any gain in res killing, or even res, losing the res you will have dying. defend only when necessary or push when you are quite behind in number of nodes. then the rest would be a major battle of jps/exos vs onos by 15~17 minutes.
gg close game. or cry trying hard to kill marines having less res than someone turtling extra hard.
1. marine (game??) balance not related to aliens fun factor
2. you think being spammed gls fun.
k i will learn to read.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, I'll stop posting about this after this last snip. For one, you are dodging the remark that you made earlier that I proved wrong. The remark you made tried to dismiss my opinion.
This thread is about the alien fun-factor, not the balance of the game. Yes, GLs are a bit OP. But I'm pretty sure people have been having fun as aliens even with the GL introduced into the game. What patch was that? Not sure, but I'm pretty sure people played the game after that, even aliens (we are at 1.0 now).
And I never said getting spammed by GLs is fun. If you want to cry about GLs then, please, start a thread or post on the 50 (THAT'S NOT EXACT) other threads on how to fix GL spam.
So you can keep putting words in my... post? But it won't make you any more correct.
*edit* and your post above... why are you playing NS2 if you're just going to complain about the game on the forums rather than try to fix the problem?
So far my experience is that the Devs deserve credit for making a fairly balanced game overall, the aliens can and do often win but somewhere along the line balancing the alien team meant sacrificing some of the more fun/power aspects that went along with it. I think people have nailed it when they say as a marine you spend your 20 res and you get a shotgun and you know you can kick ass, watch your weapons upgrade through comms and know your then gonna kick even more ass.
As an alien I know I'm gonna have to spend 50 res before I feel the least bit powerful and capable of killing anything on a consistent basis and even then I have to work hard and stealthily to do it. While I appreciate their existence as a part of the Alien flavour and as have others have said if anything playing well using these methods needs to be more rewarding sometimes I just don't want to use stealth and I don't want to use advanced coordination. Sometimes I just want to ###### get in their faces with my upgraded xenomorph and kill some marines! Think of Aliens the movie, the aliens can use stealth to attack unprepared marines and they attack together but 1 on 1 with a pulse rifle the battle is still going to be pretty even and certainly not if the Alien gets close. The only time I feel that alien power in NS2 is the 5% of the time the game allows me to use a 75 res Onos :(
Also in this thread I've read a lot of the Aliens will improve as you get better at them. I believe this to be true as my fade gets better I will feel stronger and better able to kill things but why design a game with such a huge team disparity? Where are the recoil mechanics for the marines? Or the friendly fire? Anything that would make it more difficult to play marines, why do they get such an easy ride? You can't just say ah well you've played an FPS before! Being good at counter-strike doesn't mean I'll be instantly good at Unreal Tournament or COD some of the skills are transferable but its still an entirely new game with new weapons, skills and mechanics. This is another huge reason you see so many marine stacks and alot fewer people want to play Alien.
I really do not want to resort to "learn to play" responses but for once it truly seems to be the case here.
The two sides in the game are remarkably well balanced. This is seen in the win loss ratio between the two which is pretty close overall.
Indeed my experience has been the aliens win more than the Marines (still pretty close though).
As a Marine I have been on the receiving end of Fades that absolutely tear the crap out of Marines...repeatedly (get them Blink and they are a major hassle to deal with). Gorges able to heal from a distance makes Onos with their support really hard to beat. Skulks being able to set ambushes is unparalleled.
So yeah, you need to take longer to spawn and so on. Yes you need to need to evolve and take extra time to get something better. It is all part of the balance.
Personally I like playing Marines a bit more but mostly because they are easier to understand from a lifetime of playing Marines in FPS games. Still, since everyone and their brother seems to jump on Marines I have actually played more on the alien side and have had a ball doing so even though I am not very good (not very good at all).
Both sides have their pluses and minuses...that is the point. On the whole though they are both absolutely capable of winning the game and it does not require tricks or an overbalance of skill towards the aliens. Far from it.
Play a dozen games, six on each side against (at least) semi competent opponents, and then come back here and tell us how it went. Betting most here will find that no matter which side you are on the other side seems to have an advantage.
I really do not want to resort to "learn to play" responses but for once it truly seems to be the case here.
The two sides in the game are remarkably well balanced. This is seen in the win loss ratio between the two which is pretty close overall.
Indeed my experience has been the aliens win more than the Marines (still pretty close though).
As a Marine I have been on the receiving end of Fades that absolutely tear the crap out of Marines...repeatedly (get them Blink and they are a major hassle to deal with). Gorges able to heal from a distance makes Onos with their support really hard to beat. Skulks being able to set ambushes is unparalleled.
So yeah, you need to take longer to spawn and so on. Yes you need to need to evolve and take extra time to get something better. It is all part of the balance.
Personally I like playing Marines a bit more but mostly because they are easier to understand from a lifetime of playing Marines in FPS games. Still, since everyone and their brother seems to jump on Marines I have actually played more on the alien side and have had a ball doing so even though I am not very good (not very good at all).
Both sides have their pluses and minuses...that is the point. On the whole though they are both absolutely capable of winning the game and it does not require tricks or an overbalance of skill towards the aliens. Far from it.
Play a dozen games, six on each side against (at least) semi competent opponents, and then come back here and tell us how it went. Betting most here will find that no matter which side you are on the other side seems to have an advantage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again I'll make the point of asking people who comment to actually read my post or even if you just looked at the title you'd see this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the balance. The balance as of right now is great, 49% Marines 51% Aliens, you aren't going to get much more perfect than that. This thread is about the fun factor of Aliens and feeling while playing Aliens not whether it is balanced as far as win loss percentages.
The personal resource changes from NS1 to Ns2 are a big part of it.
If I went Fade, I usually was a large chunk of the way to affording another Fade before I died in NS1. Not so in NS2.
Gorges feel very limited. Still a pivotal "class", but one missing a large chunk of its original fun factor.
you can only use knife and the other team uses a pistol. you could use to have bunnyhop and all those stuff that could get you to the opponents fast. now your bunnyhop is taken away and opponents would avoid dark places and obstacles. fun or challenging?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Knifing people in cs was actually really fun, especially on maps with less of the mass line of sight CS likes to code into there maps.
NS and NS2 both made there maps specifically with lack of los in mind, melee is always better the less los you have.
The CS example is also very bad because the knives very slow to attack or very fast with very little dmg. Killing someone with a knife in cs was rather slow and painful by comparison to how a skulk can effectively kill a marine in 3 seconds. (unless of course you got a back stab, but even then if a skulk sneaks up behind a marine in ns2 he can get 2-3 bites sometimes, (to coin a dnd phrase) before the marine gets into a stance. Anyone dies easily when caught flat footed =).
Skulks are also smaller then marines in CS which gives them a huge advantage in hitbox size. Skulks can also walk on walls/ceiling and wait in ambush they don't have to be the aggressor in a confrontation just merely a defender.
Furthermore Bhoping is such an unrealistic movement paradym I wish it had never existed. Wall Jumping on the other hand is pretty cool.
IMO In the current build aliens are very fun, I find skulks good early to mid game. Lerks are great early-late game, and lost effectiveness during end game but can still be viable as umpra/spore monkeys. Fades own pretty much whatever they do but focused fire from 2-3 marines is ouchy, and onos's seem to fit there role perfectly and are quite fun.
Overall this game has come a long way from beta I Love The combat now It feels so good. I watch players everyday pick up a trick here and there and become better in a flash at killing marines/aliens. As for NS1 being more fun I have to strongly disagree, I felt ns1 was a good game but NS2 beats it by far in every category with small exception to gorges. I do wish gorges had a few more buildings they could drop.
I mean, the marines will spend 15 p.res for a one shot useless mine that can't kill one skulk. Why won't aliens spend 20 for 3 permanent-until-killed turrets that add up to big damage when using even the most basic teamwork?
I honestly don't know why more teams don't all just gorge immediately, and move out into the map to clog after building their Hydra's in the starter hive. It would make things infinitely easier on them at a stupid low cost and ultimately they would retain more resource towers to upgrade faster.
*shakes fist*
Damn you logic!!!
(Ok, I can think of a few reasons why people don't do this. But admit it, you thought about how great it would be for a minute there didn't you?)