<!--quoteo(post=2007630:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:57 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 2 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there are a number of changes that can and should be made to alien tech/upgrades to improve their build variety - like reducing dependence on Carapace - but it's not productive to get balance mixed into that discussion. Balance right now is pretty good(obviously not perfect), this is backed up by hard data. Making arguments based on the false premise that aliens are gimped and need buffs just discredits everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i think it's inarguable that marines have an easier time on the FPS front. was playing on garfu's pub stomp server and when garfu+stackers were on marines they were going like 30-1 and such, and when they switched to aliens it was more like 20-8. but for some reason the alien strategic side makes it so that even if aliens aren't winning as many tactical battles, they can still win the game (probably due to onos and fade timings).
i'm not sure whether this kind of asymmetry is good, or can be considered "balance."
<!--quoteo(post=2007618:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:52 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 2 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007618"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i'd like to see the partial damage numbers increased. if it were increased to 35/55/75, you would require 5 glancing bites to kill an a0 marine instead of 7. doing 25/50/75 just means that new players have a really steep curve to improve on.
another thing that's kind of ridiculous is that alien melee has glancing damage while the marine melees have no aim requirement at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also if Marines are at 3 armor glancing blows are pretty much a moot point. You brought up another really good reason I think there are so many "I'm uninstalling qq" or other kind of threads, is that the learning curve is just a brick wall. I feel like once you "get it" on how to play Alien you have climbed the wall but meanwhile trying to learn it, you receive very little positive feedback (Damage wise and performance wise) and absolutely no forgiveness (If you make on mistake a good marine will murder you before you can react). Which honestly, most players are good Marines, very few players have never played an FPS. Sure they don't get the teamwork aspect of it but they sure as hell can point there crosshair at something and make it die. I'm afraid this learning wall will discourage a lot of players from Aliens and maybe even the game. :/
<!--quoteo(post=2007633:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:59 PM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 2 2012, 09:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about shotgun dealing less damage to onos than an lmg?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> does it after accounting for reloads/ammo capacity?
<!--quoteo(post=2007630:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:57 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 2 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007630"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think there are a number of changes that can and should be made to alien tech/upgrades to improve their build variety - like reducing dependence on Carapace - but it's not productive to get balance mixed into that discussion. Balance right now is pretty good(obviously not perfect), this is backed up by hard data. Making arguments based on the false premise that aliens are gimped and need buffs just discredits everything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for the heads up and for pointing us back on target which has nothing to do with balance but instead how fun it is to play.
I think one of the biggest problems to Aliens is feedback as far as being "Useful" to the team. I know a lot of time when I am playing as Alien I just feel like I can't make an impact unless I get an Onos. Even if I got behind them and nommed an extractor killed it maybe even gotten two I feel like there really isn't much in the way of positive feedback. Some kind of a positive feedback would also really help players climbing that learning wall. Thanks everyone for responding and being civil ! :D
<!--quoteo(post=2007633:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:59 AM:name=MuYeah)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 3 2012, 04:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007633"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about shotgun dealing less damage to onos than an lmg?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shotgun used to deal less damage to Onos, and that made sense since shotgun isn't a "penetrating" weapon, and Onoses have bone armor, so... But they removed it, and ever since shotgun has been teh ultimate wepunz.
I definitely think shotgun should deal less damage to Onos and have a limited range. Would add flavor to the weapon. Adjust res cost accordingly.
<!--quoteo(post=2007647:date=Nov 3 2012, 05:10 AM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 3 2012, 05:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think one of the biggest problems to Aliens is feedback as far as being "Useful" to the team. I know a lot of time when I am playing as Alien I just feel like I can't make an impact unless I get an Onos. Even if I got behind them and nommed an extractor killed it maybe even gotten two I feel like there really isn't much in the way of positive feedback. Some kind of a positive feedback would also really help players climbing that learning wall. Thanks everyone for responding and being civil ! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This troubles me, because it's pretty much the best thing a skulk can do. Skulks do very good damage versus extractors, so while more advanced lifeforms are munching marines, skulks should be trying to get behind enemy lines to munch extractors. Taking out a single extractor as a skulk all alone is BIG. It really hampers the marines if they don't stop you from doing that. It just doesn't show until like 10min after, when you notice marines don't have as much stuff as they might.
<!--quoteo(post=2007647:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:10 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 10:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007647"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thank you for the heads up and for pointing us back on target which has nothing to do with balance but instead how fun it is to play.
I think one of the biggest problems to Aliens is feedback as far as being "Useful" to the team. I know a lot of time when I am playing as Alien I just feel like I can't make an impact unless I get an Onos. Even if I got behind them and nommed an extractor killed it maybe even gotten two I feel like there really isn't much in the way of positive feedback. Some kind of a positive feedback would also really help players climbing that learning wall. Thanks everyone for responding and being civil ! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
one thing that would definitely make a difference is making marine spawns slower. it feels like marines are able to constantly reinforce any place they are under attack from (in a role reversal of the earlier pre-spawn-wave aliens) and killing them hardly makes a dent.
<!--quoteo(post=2007656:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:15 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 2 2012, 07:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->one thing that would definitely make a difference is making marine spawns slower. it feels like marines are able to constantly reinforce any place they are under attack from (in a role reversal of the earlier pre-spawn-wave aliens) and killing them hardly makes a dent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or make Aliens faster ? I mean they feel so much like Zerg, (Cheap units you throw at the enemy, never doing direct engages unless you far outnumber them, constantly counterattacking, abuse mobility) which kind of connotes the idea that they have much faster spawns ?
Also I wish infestation had a bigger role in the game. I feel like it is SUCH a large strategic opportunity that just isn't being utilized.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->Note: The following post was written late at night, totally awesome rainbow grammar will ensue ~~!!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Overall most of the troubles people have with aliens come down to 2 thing....
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->#1 is inexperience, most people know how to shoot, and shoot well! But a lot of people have little to no experience playing a tactile-bitey dog or a super fast flying fart monster :) There are some great vids on how to dodge (wall jump :O), how to trick marines, and how to be a pain in the ass....... So go check <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhcsLX2gMc" target="_blank"><u><!--fonto:Impact--><span style="font-family:Impact"><!--/fonto-->some of them out!<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--></u></a><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->The 2nd big problem is that the RTS mechanics of ns2 are a hell of a lot more blunt and not as easy to understand for the alien team. As the marines you always have a place, if there are exo's out you can support and weld <u>EVERTHING</u>, If you are attacking a base: GL are cheap and super awesome... Basically its easy to know your place all game long....<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->But the for aliens: skulks really get lost in the mix late game. after the 30min mark skulks become the chump of the team, for balance this might be ok but its not fun. We need some good late game tools for skulk!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->In concussion Most of the issues come down to everyone being new: give it a week or 2 and everyone will be much more coordinated. Still with this in mind 3 major things need to be addressed regarding skulks and the alien team as a whole, <i><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->the late game potential of skulk<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>, <i><!--coloro:#708090--><span style="color:#708090"><!--/coloro-->a better skill movement<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>, <i><!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->and shotguns being a omni-tool<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i> (give them a 6shot clip)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007665:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:22 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 2 2012, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->But the for aliens: skulks really get lost in the mix late game. after the 30min mark skulks become the chump of the team, for balance this might be ok but its not fun. We need some good late game tools for skulk!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very true. It may work for balance but that doesn't make it fun. (For anyone wondering NS2's FB has a chart of Win percentages after ~16,000 games and its about 51% Alien 49% Marine.)
As a skulk: Plan your bites. Don't spam bite. Your aim will slowly get better. If the marine is hopping (which he/she usually is) remember to aim slightly upward. Crawl on the ceilings (sp) and the walls. Hell, hop off the wall and climb the other to the top and jump back down. Just move a lot (remember, a lot of people have ###### FPS or rubber-band, so as a marine they may have trouble hitting you =p). Jump around yourself. Personally I don't hide and attack. It takes too long while the marines expand.
Gorge: Help build hives or anything else the commander drops. You can increase the building speed of structures by healing them. Also, make sure you aren't too far away, but also aren't too close to the combat zone. Make a wall that has the top row open so skulks and lerks can go through. Drop your hydras near eachother so you can build (using heal spray) them all at once (they will also be more affective together than just one firing). Work with the Onos. Heal her (him? It?) when (screw it, he) he rushes the base. Also, use your bilebomb to kill exos and the marine base.
Lerk: Again, plan your bites. You're likely to die if you rush more than one person with bite. Only use bite as a last-resort or a way to end a marine if he's running away (after you know he's taken a decent amount of damage). Spikes are good while you perch on a wall. Remember though, if a marine spots you he can kill you quickly if you're perched. Once you have spores, use it to help skulks or other lifeforms; cover them with gas. Remember, marines can't see through gas - aliens can. Also, if rushing the marine base with others, gas the armory... defeats the purpose of marines humping the armory.
Fade: As always, plan your attack; don't spam. Remember that you have double jump (I always forget.. and I bought the alpha...) and also your shift-blink. The shift-blink is VERY good against solo marines. It's also good against JPs because they don't see you coming. In mid-blink attack right when u get near them. Blink is really only good in emergencies or moving around the map. You can still get killed while blinking. Fade is dangerously weak to shotguns. Only attack one or two marines at a time (only one if it's a shotty), or rush with the team and take out marines while the rest take out structures.
Onos: Well, pretty simple. Don't rush alone. As mentioned before, have a gorge nearby. Use the charge to get out of sticky situations. Also, while using charge, if you attack a marine you will do extra damage. Aim for structures over players (in the proper situation of course). Once you have stomp, though, you can do massive damage to marine units. But remember, don't get too cocky. Avoid fighting in long hallways (goes for every alien I guess, besides the lerk maybe).
Aliens are fun. Learn to use them correctly and you can have a great time. I don't know why I typed all this out but... yay!...?
edit: I'm sure I screwed up on something I typed here... oops for any spelling or grammatical issues.
<!--quoteo(post=2007689:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:46 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 2 2012, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Gorge: Help build hives or anything else the commander drops. You can increase the building speed of structures by healing them. Also, make sure you aren't too far away, but also aren't too close to the combat zone. Make a wall that has the top row open so skulks and lerks can go through. Drop your hydras near eachother so you can build (using heal spray) them all at once (they will also be more affective together than just one firing). Work with the Onos. Heal her (him? It?) when (screw it, he) he rushes the base. Also, use your bilebomb to kill exos and the marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->In addition:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->early game gorge is awesome in head to head fights! <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->Try attacking with 1-3 skulks, Jumpstrafe-heal-and spit your little gorgey heart out! <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->in a head to head fight a healing gorge basically gives your skulks carapace, and draws a lot of fire!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro--> Oh and if they don't try and shoot you, Get up in there face and spit like to tomorrow, 40dmg is nothing to laugh at ! <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I think when wall jump is improved skulk will get a lot more fun to play. I still enjoy it FYI, but I think movement wise it needs a lil something. It doesn't "feel" like a fast and nimble life form like it should. Almost, but not quite. I really feel wall jump would be a good solution to that.
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. The rest of the life forms are immensely fun and useful. If anyone says that is not true, they haven't learned to play them yet. In fact I prefer playing Alien because the other life forms are so fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2007704:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:58 PM:name=spaceturtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spaceturtle @ Nov 2 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think when wall jump is improved skulk will get a lot more fun to play. I still enjoy it FYI, but I think movement wise it needs a lil something. It doesn't "feel" like a fast and nimble life form like it should. Almost, but not quite. I really feel wall jump would be a good solution to that.
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. The rest of the life forms are immensely fun and useful. If anyone says that is not true, they haven't learned to play them yet. In fact I prefer playing Alien because the other life forms are so fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overall I agree... still gorge could use some work :) Web anyone!!
<!--quoteo(post=2007706:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:59 PM:name=Burdock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Burdock @ Nov 2 2012, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Overall I agree... still gorge could use some work :) Web anyone!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007704:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:58 PM:name=spaceturtle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spaceturtle @ Nov 2 2012, 10:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think when wall jump is improved skulk will get a lot more fun to play. I still enjoy it FYI, but I think movement wise it needs a lil something. It doesn't "feel" like a fast and nimble life form like it should. Almost, but not quite. I really feel wall jump would be a good solution to that.
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. ....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of people will agree with you on skulk movement. It has always been a slight issue. It just doesn't "feel right". Hard to put that into coding lol. Hopefully wall-jump will get better.
Honestly, I like using skulks. Remember, marines don't get RFK. You can die as much as you like (but may piss off other aliens for adding to the spawn que). In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.
<!--quoteo(post=2007710:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:03 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 2 2012, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A lot of people will agree with you on skulk movement. It has always been a slight issue. It just doesn't "feel right". Hard to put that into coding lol. Hopefully wall-jump will get better.
Honestly, I like using skulks. Remember, marines don't get RFK. You can die as much as you like (but may piss off other aliens for adding to the spawn que). In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are dead though that is pressure you aren't putting on the map, that is rez you are losing, that is a player you don't have defending. Not dying is actually pretty important, I wish more people would run back to the hive to heal but then again, that is not exactly fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2007721:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:09 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you are dead though that is pressure you aren't putting on the map, that is rez you are losing, that is a player you don't have defending. Not dying is actually pretty important, I wish more people would run back to the hive to heal but then again, that is not exactly fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Running back to base as a skulk is like having redemption skulk in NS1.
*edit* you aren't losing res, you are just not gaining it. If you think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds.. you may miss 1-2 res. And the other team has dead players. I'm not saying just randomly, all skulk, rush the base and all die (although many games can end with skulk rushes).
<!--quoteo(post=2007723:date=Nov 3 2012, 11:10 AM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 3 2012, 11:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007723"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Running back to base as a skulk is like having redemption skulk in NS1.
*edit* you aren't losing res, you are just not gaining it. If you think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds.. you may miss 1-2 res. And the other team has dead players. I'm not saying just randomly, all skulk, rush the base and all die (although many games can end with skulk rushes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> losing the res where you could just sit there and gaining it is lost res. this is what we called opportunity cost in economics. think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds, misses 1-2 res. the multiply it with some random small numbers of your death, you know that it is defensive soccer. and defensive soccer is boring. not to mention late game marines are almost unstoppable without a few onos.
oh wait onos requires 75 res?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> and then one gl and a scan clears the whole hell out of it.
I agree to most of the points said in this thread. Yes, aliens im sure get more fun as you become more skilled with them, however, isn't this the case with every game? The better you are with something, the more superior it makes you feel to the rabble and thus you derive more enjoyment, this is kinda obvious.
So I think that the people claiming 'l2p' have a valid point, but as well, you need to make way for players who may not be so skilled at the game as you are. And this is why I believe that skulks and the aliens as a whole need a rework so they are more rewarding and satisfying to play instead of taking most of their time in game looking at a respawn counter or running across the map to get to an area where they then die in 5 seconds.
<!--quoteo(post=2007754:date=Nov 3 2012, 02:54 PM:name=TheRedRager)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheRedRager @ Nov 3 2012, 02:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree to most of the points said in this thread. Yes, aliens im sure get more fun as you become more skilled with them, however, isn't this the case with every game? The better you are with something, the more superior it makes you feel to the rabble and thus you derive more enjoyment, this is kinda obvious.
So I think that the people claiming 'l2p' have a valid point, but as well, you need to make way for players who may not be so skilled at the game as you are. And this is why I believe that skulks and the aliens as a whole need a rework so they are more rewarding and satisfying to play instead of taking most of their time in game looking at a respawn counter or running across the map to get to an area where they then die in 5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, there is some l2p that needs to happen. Most people have literally had the game for about a week. You cannot get really good at this game in a week.
At the same time, sometimes its not obvious what the best way to play is. The game doesn't provide guidance to new players on how to actually exploit the movement of each lifeform. It sort of has to be learnt on the job. Reckon some hot tutorial challenge maps would be fun for new players. Or a semi automatic 'shooting range' type thing for marine and alien recruits perhaps.
<!--quoteo(post=2007779:date=Nov 2 2012, 09:15 PM:name=beagle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (beagle @ Nov 2 2012, 09:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This, there is some l2p that needs to happen. Most people have literally had the game for about a week. You cannot get really good at this game in a week.
At the same time, sometimes its not obvious what the best way to play is. The game doesn't provide guidance to new players on how to actually exploit the movement of each lifeform. It sort of has to be learnt on the job. Reckon some hot tutorial challenge maps would be fun for new players. Or a semi automatic 'shooting range' type thing for marine and alien recruits perhaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007736:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:29 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Nov 2 2012, 11:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->losing the res where you could just sit there and gaining it is lost res. this is what we called opportunity cost in economics. think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds, misses 1-2 res. the multiply it with some random small numbers of your death, you know that it is defensive soccer. and defensive soccer is boring. not to mention late game marines are almost unstoppable without a few onos.
oh wait onos requires 75 res?
and then one gl and a scan clears the whole hell out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhh looks like we're going to be friends. I'm saying, AS A SKULK, rush. If you don't wish to stay a skulk for most of the game, save your res (I should have said this before). I'm not talking about GLs. That's a marine balance. Not in this thread. And if you need several onos, you either lost or you're going to lose. You already messed up.
*EDIT* "Anyway, I don't see the need for more servers until more people play (sounds bad, but I have never seen every server full, soooo). " EVERY SERVER FULL. L2READ.
<!--quoteo(post=2007791:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:23 PM:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson @ Nov 3 2012, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007791"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ahhhh looks like we're going to be friends. I'm saying, AS A SKULK, rush. If you don't wish to stay a skulk for most of the game, save your res (I should have said this before). I'm not talking about GLs. That's a marine balance. Not in this thread. And if you need several onos, you either lost or you're going to lose. You already messed up.
*EDIT* "Anyway, I don't see the need for more servers until more people play (sounds bad, but I have never seen every server full, soooo). " EVERY SERVER FULL. L2READ.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so either it is 1. marine (game??) balance not related to aliens fun factor 2. you think being spammed gls fun.
I'm a little mystified as to why their "vision" of the Kharaa is so pathetic in the first place.
The idea is a strange alien race that is incredibly powerful threatens the stellar frontier, and the marines are sent in to try to fix it up. It's like Starship Troopers, earth technology vs. super warlike biological death machines.
So why does it feel like aliens have absolutely no intrinsic advantage? It honestly feels like the MARINES are invading the ALIENS and we should be sympathetic to them. They come in, they get better technology faster, the aliens have a few pathetic upgrades that offer no actual advantage, they only allow them to try to 'catch up' to the marines.
You would think a game called 'Natural-Selection' talking about lifeforms evolving to combat the enemy would have critters capable of, say, rapidly adapting to changing environments. They roll out flamethrowers, so you evolve a fireproof carapace. They have lots of grenades, so you evolve blast resistant armor. They have slower units, so you evolve better jumping and running.
Instead we have the same five boring lifeforms, two of which are support. We have six crappy upgrades, two of which are hard-countered by a single marine building, one of which is countered by the first weapon upgrade marines get, one that is useless because you'll be dead before you have a chance to regenerate, and two that are 'mandatory' depending on your lifeform, because aliens are so much slower relative to marines in NS1 and two breeds of aliens use so much energy in their attacks they're impotent without the other upgrade.
Marines should be getting upgrades to counter aliens, not vice-versa.
<!--quoteo(post=2007925:date=Nov 3 2012, 03:08 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm a little mystified as to why their "vision" of the Kharaa is so pathetic in the first place.
The idea is a strange alien race that is incredibly powerful threatens the stellar frontier, and the marines are sent in to try to fix it up. It's like Starship Troopers, earth technology vs. super warlike biological death machines.
So why does it feel like aliens have absolutely no intrinsic advantage? It honestly feels like the MARINES are invading the ALIENS and we should be sympathetic to them. They come in, they get better technology faster, the aliens have a few pathetic upgrades that offer no actual advantage, they only allow them to try to 'catch up' to the marines.
You would think a game called 'Natural-Selection' talking about lifeforms evolving to combat the enemy would have critters capable of, say, rapidly adapting to changing environments. They roll out flamethrowers, so you evolve a fireproof carapace. They have lots of grenades, so you evolve blast resistant armor. They have slower units, so you evolve better jumping and running.
Instead we have the same five boring lifeforms, two of which are support. We have six crappy upgrades, two of which are hard-countered by a single marine building, one of which is countered by the first weapon upgrade marines get, one that is useless because you'll be dead before you have a chance to regenerate, and two that are 'mandatory' depending on your lifeform, because aliens are so much slower relative to marines in NS1 and two breeds of aliens use so much energy in their attacks they're impotent without the other upgrade.
Marines should be getting upgrades to counter aliens, not vice-versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am a tad confused as well at what is the general strength of the alien race when compared to marines. People say mobility but look at marine tech. People say their ambush and numbers but marines spawn faster. Etc etc etc. im not implying aliens should have counterable upgrades but you are right in saying the pacing of the game seems far from even as an alien.
Also before this thread becomes an l2p spam fest let me reitterate, this is a thread about the enjoyment of aliens not theit balance. For many it is the advantages of the race which make it fun and unique which is why we bring it up. Also many users on here who are voicing concerns have played 100s of hours of the beta, this isnt a new issue.
Now granted, these upgrades are just little buffs to the three bars on the bottom and not much else (it's just a crappy iOS game), but it shows you a lot more imagination in how you evolve. Skulks should have more than just 'skulk with tiny bit more armor' and 'skulk with tiny bit more base speed'. Skulks should be able to evolve many and more complicated abilities with res investment to change how they play.
Say you want to invest in parasite, so you spend some points. The first upgrade makes parasite last a little longer. Then it branches. One branch makes the parasite show the enemy health, and maybe the upgrade after that shows teammates around him. The other branch makes the parasite slowly poison the marine, or causes hallucinations and 'insanity' effects.
The culmination of one parasite branch could be to give the skulk a form of mind control over the enemy, allowing him to open fire on his team for just a few seconds. The other branch could result in killed marine corpses eventually swelling and exploding with snark-like enemies that leap around and claw at enemies in the area.
Another upgrade branch could be focused on Leap. One branch makes leap more powerful, more efficient, and has higher ability effects like a leap + bite does extra damage. The other branch could focus on tackle-style effects, where you leap into a marine and it knocks him to the ground and you can bite away at him, which makes you vulnerable but punishes solo marines and lets skulks knock out key players similar to the Hunters from L4D.
Whenever you die, you risk losing the higher end evolutionary traits... but the longer you live and the better you perform, you can gain random mutations to help you evolve more. This way, the alien team is always changing, adapting to the marines and countering their tactics.
<!--quoteo(post=2007937:date=Nov 3 2012, 04:25 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 04:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007937"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've got a game called Plague Inc on my phone. You evolve a disease using evolutionary points. This is what the evolve menu looks like:
Now granted, these upgrades are just little buffs to the three bars on the bottom and not much else (it's just a crappy iOS game), but it shows you a lot more imagination in how you evolve. Skulks should have more than just 'skulk with tiny bit more armor' and 'skulk with tiny bit more base speed'. Skulks should be able to evolve many and more complicated abilities with res investment to change how they play.
Say you want to invest in parasite, so you spend some points. The first upgrade makes parasite last a little longer. Then it branches. One branch makes the parasite show the enemy health, and maybe the upgrade after that shows teammates around him. The other branch makes the parasite slowly poison the marine, or causes hallucinations and 'insanity' effects.
The culmination of one parasite branch could be to give the skulk a form of mind control over the enemy, allowing him to open fire on his team for just a few seconds. The other branch could result in killed marine corpses eventually swelling and exploding with snark-like enemies that leap around and claw at enemies in the area.
Another upgrade branch could be focused on Leap. One branch makes leap more powerful, more efficient, and has higher ability effects like a leap + bite does extra damage. The other branch could focus on tackle-style effects, where you leap into a marine and it knocks him to the ground and you can bite away at him, which makes you vulnerable but punishes solo marines and lets skulks knock out key players similar to the Hunters from L4D.
Whenever you die, you risk losing the higher end evolutionary traits... but the longer you live and the better you perform, you can gain random mutations to help you evolve more.
Seriously, why aren't we playing *THAT* game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are they packing lots of armor? Evolve your skulk Carapace to no longer provide good protection against bullets, and instead go the route that lets you splash armor-eating acid blood on enemies around you when you get shot or killed.
<!--quoteo(post=2007943:date=Nov 3 2012, 03:29 AM:name=unkind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (unkind @ Nov 3 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007943"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->people with cool ideas never make games :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ill prove you wrong with one sentencd. NS2 was made. You were probably being sarcastic though...
@temphage a system you described would wreak havoc on the current balance. I like the idea but i dont know how feasible it is given that the current mission is stomp bugs as it should be.
I like where the idea is heading though, empowering both the player and the alien com.
Comments
i think it's inarguable that marines have an easier time on the FPS front. was playing on garfu's pub stomp server and when garfu+stackers were on marines they were going like 30-1 and such, and when they switched to aliens it was more like 20-8. but for some reason the alien strategic side makes it so that even if aliens aren't winning as many tactical battles, they can still win the game (probably due to onos and fade timings).
i'm not sure whether this kind of asymmetry is good, or can be considered "balance."
another thing that's kind of ridiculous is that alien melee has glancing damage while the marine melees have no aim requirement at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also if Marines are at 3 armor glancing blows are pretty much a moot point. You brought up another really good reason I think there are so many "I'm uninstalling qq" or other kind of threads, is that the learning curve is just a brick wall. I feel like once you "get it" on how to play Alien you have climbed the wall but meanwhile trying to learn it, you receive very little positive feedback (Damage wise and performance wise) and absolutely no forgiveness (If you make on mistake a good marine will murder you before you can react). Which honestly, most players are good Marines, very few players have never played an FPS. Sure they don't get the teamwork aspect of it but they sure as hell can point there crosshair at something and make it die. I'm afraid this learning wall will discourage a lot of players from Aliens and maybe even the game. :/
does it after accounting for reloads/ammo capacity?
Thank you for the heads up and for pointing us back on target which has nothing to do with balance but instead how fun it is to play.
I think one of the biggest problems to Aliens is feedback as far as being "Useful" to the team. I know a lot of time when I am playing as Alien I just feel like I can't make an impact unless I get an Onos. Even if I got behind them and nommed an extractor killed it maybe even gotten two I feel like there really isn't much in the way of positive feedback. Some kind of a positive feedback would also really help players climbing that learning wall. Thanks everyone for responding and being civil ! :D
Shotgun used to deal less damage to Onos, and that made sense since shotgun isn't a "penetrating" weapon, and Onoses have bone armor, so... But they removed it, and ever since shotgun has been teh ultimate wepunz.
I definitely think shotgun should deal less damage to Onos and have a limited range. Would add flavor to the weapon. Adjust res cost accordingly.
This troubles me, because it's pretty much the best thing a skulk can do. Skulks do very good damage versus extractors, so while more advanced lifeforms are munching marines, skulks should be trying to get behind enemy lines to munch extractors. Taking out a single extractor as a skulk all alone is BIG. It really hampers the marines if they don't stop you from doing that. It just doesn't show until like 10min after, when you notice marines don't have as much stuff as they might.
I think one of the biggest problems to Aliens is feedback as far as being "Useful" to the team. I know a lot of time when I am playing as Alien I just feel like I can't make an impact unless I get an Onos. Even if I got behind them and nommed an extractor killed it maybe even gotten two I feel like there really isn't much in the way of positive feedback. Some kind of a positive feedback would also really help players climbing that learning wall. Thanks everyone for responding and being civil ! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
one thing that would definitely make a difference is making marine spawns slower. it feels like marines are able to constantly reinforce any place they are under attack from (in a role reversal of the earlier pre-spawn-wave aliens) and killing them hardly makes a dent.
Or make Aliens faster ? I mean they feel so much like Zerg, (Cheap units you throw at the enemy, never doing direct engages unless you far outnumber them, constantly counterattacking, abuse mobility) which kind of connotes the idea that they have much faster spawns ?
Also I wish infestation had a bigger role in the game. I feel like it is SUCH a large strategic opportunity that just isn't being utilized.
Overall most of the troubles people have with aliens come down to 2 thing....
<!--coloro:#FF00FF--><span style="color:#FF00FF"><!--/coloro-->#1 is inexperience, most people know how to shoot, and shoot well! But a lot of people have little to no experience playing a tactile-bitey dog or a super fast flying fart monster :) There are some great vids on how to dodge (wall jump :O), how to trick marines, and how to be a pain in the ass....... So go check <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhcsLX2gMc" target="_blank"><u><!--fonto:Impact--><span style="font-family:Impact"><!--/fonto-->some of them out!<!--fontc--></span><!--/fontc--></u></a><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#48D1CC--><span style="color:#48D1CC"><!--/coloro-->The 2nd big problem is that the RTS mechanics of ns2 are a hell of a lot more blunt and not as easy to understand for the alien team. As the marines you always have a place, if there are exo's out you can support and weld <u>EVERTHING</u>, If you are attacking a base: GL are cheap and super awesome... Basically its easy to know your place all game long....<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->But the for aliens: skulks really get lost in the mix late game. after the 30min mark skulks become the chump of the team, for balance this might be ok but its not fun. We need some good late game tools for skulk!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->In concussion Most of the issues come down to everyone being new: give it a week or 2 and everyone will be much more coordinated. Still with this in mind 3 major things need to be addressed regarding skulks and the alien team as a whole, <i><!--coloro:#00BFFF--><span style="color:#00BFFF"><!--/coloro-->the late game potential of skulk<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>, <i><!--coloro:#708090--><span style="color:#708090"><!--/coloro-->a better skill movement<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i>, <i><!--coloro:#2E8B57--><span style="color:#2E8B57"><!--/coloro-->and shotguns being a omni-tool<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--></i> (give them a 6shot clip)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
This is very true. It may work for balance but that doesn't make it fun. (For anyone wondering NS2's FB has a chart of Win percentages after ~16,000 games and its about 51% Alien 49% Marine.)
Gorge: Help build hives or anything else the commander drops. You can increase the building speed of structures by healing them. Also, make sure you aren't too far away, but also aren't too close to the combat zone. Make a wall that has the top row open so skulks and lerks can go through. Drop your hydras near eachother so you can build (using heal spray) them all at once (they will also be more affective together than just one firing). Work with the Onos. Heal her (him? It?) when (screw it, he) he rushes the base. Also, use your bilebomb to kill exos and the marine base.
Lerk: Again, plan your bites. You're likely to die if you rush more than one person with bite. Only use bite as a last-resort or a way to end a marine if he's running away (after you know he's taken a decent amount of damage). Spikes are good while you perch on a wall. Remember though, if a marine spots you he can kill you quickly if you're perched. Once you have spores, use it to help skulks or other lifeforms; cover them with gas. Remember, marines can't see through gas - aliens can. Also, if rushing the marine base with others, gas the armory... defeats the purpose of marines humping the armory.
Fade: As always, plan your attack; don't spam. Remember that you have double jump (I always forget.. and I bought the alpha...) and also your shift-blink. The shift-blink is VERY good against solo marines. It's also good against JPs because they don't see you coming. In mid-blink attack right when u get near them. Blink is really only good in emergencies or moving around the map. You can still get killed while blinking. Fade is dangerously weak to shotguns. Only attack one or two marines at a time (only one if it's a shotty), or rush with the team and take out marines while the rest take out structures.
Onos: Well, pretty simple. Don't rush alone. As mentioned before, have a gorge nearby. Use the charge to get out of sticky situations. Also, while using charge, if you attack a marine you will do extra damage. Aim for structures over players (in the proper situation of course). Once you have stomp, though, you can do massive damage to marine units. But remember, don't get too cocky. Avoid fighting in long hallways (goes for every alien I guess, besides the lerk maybe).
Aliens are fun. Learn to use them correctly and you can have a great time. I don't know why I typed all this out but... yay!...?
edit: I'm sure I screwed up on something I typed here... oops for any spelling or grammatical issues.
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro-->In addition:<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#FFA500--><span style="color:#FFA500"><!--/coloro-->early game gorge is awesome in head to head fights! <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#9932CC--><span style="color:#9932CC"><!--/coloro-->Try attacking with 1-3 skulks, Jumpstrafe-heal-and spit your little gorgey heart out! <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->in a head to head fight a healing gorge basically gives your skulks carapace, and draws a lot of fire!<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--coloro:#00FFFF--><span style="color:#00FFFF"><!--/coloro--> Oh and if they don't try and shoot you, Get up in there face and spit like to tomorrow, 40dmg is nothing to laugh at !
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. The rest of the life forms are immensely fun and useful. If anyone says that is not true, they haven't learned to play them yet. In fact I prefer playing Alien because the other life forms are so fun.
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. The rest of the life forms are immensely fun and useful. If anyone says that is not true, they haven't learned to play them yet. In fact I prefer playing Alien because the other life forms are so fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Overall I agree... still gorge could use some work :) Web anyone!!
Whats gorge missing ?
Really the problem with aliens boils down to the skulk. ....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of people will agree with you on skulk movement. It has always been a slight issue. It just doesn't "feel right". Hard to put that into coding lol. Hopefully wall-jump will get better.
Honestly, I like using skulks. Remember, marines don't get RFK. You can die as much as you like (but may piss off other aliens for adding to the spawn que). In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.
Honestly, I like using skulks. Remember, marines don't get RFK. You can die as much as you like (but may piss off other aliens for adding to the spawn que). In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are dead though that is pressure you aren't putting on the map, that is rez you are losing, that is a player you don't have defending. Not dying is actually pretty important, I wish more people would run back to the hive to heal but then again, that is not exactly fun.
Running back to base as a skulk is like having redemption skulk in NS1.
*edit* you aren't losing res, you are just not gaining it. If you think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds.. you may miss 1-2 res. And the other team has dead players. I'm not saying just randomly, all skulk, rush the base and all die (although many games can end with skulk rushes).
*edit* you aren't losing res, you are just not gaining it. If you think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds.. you may miss 1-2 res. And the other team has dead players. I'm not saying just randomly, all skulk, rush the base and all die (although many games can end with skulk rushes).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
losing the res where you could just sit there and gaining it is lost res. this is what we called opportunity cost in economics. think about how much res you miss in 10-20 seconds, misses 1-2 res. the multiply it with some random small numbers of your death, you know that it is defensive soccer. and defensive soccer is boring. not to mention late game marines are almost unstoppable without a few onos.
oh wait onos requires 75 res?
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Sampson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sampson)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In the end-game, you need multiple skulks (or maybe some of the hiding skills) to kill a couple decent marines. Use the skulk to scout out areas (and tell the commander what you find). If you die, so what (again, if a ton of other people are dead it won't help them out). Skulks can destroy exos.... a couple skulks can annoy the hell out of them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and then one gl and a scan clears the whole hell out of it.
So I think that the people claiming 'l2p' have a valid point, but as well, you need to make way for players who may not be so skilled at the game as you are. And this is why I believe that skulks and the aliens as a whole need a rework so they are more rewarding and satisfying to play instead of taking most of their time in game looking at a respawn counter or running across the map to get to an area where they then die in 5 seconds.
So I think that the people claiming 'l2p' have a valid point, but as well, you need to make way for players who may not be so skilled at the game as you are. And this is why I believe that skulks and the aliens as a whole need a rework so they are more rewarding and satisfying to play instead of taking most of their time in game looking at a respawn counter or running across the map to get to an area where they then die in 5 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, there is some l2p that needs to happen. Most people have literally had the game for about a week. You cannot get really good at this game in a week.
At the same time, sometimes its not obvious what the best way to play is. The game doesn't provide guidance to new players on how to actually exploit the movement of each lifeform. It sort of has to be learnt on the job. Reckon some hot tutorial challenge maps would be fun for new players. Or a semi automatic 'shooting range' type thing for marine and alien recruits perhaps.
At the same time, sometimes its not obvious what the best way to play is. The game doesn't provide guidance to new players on how to actually exploit the movement of each lifeform. It sort of has to be learnt on the job. Reckon some hot tutorial challenge maps would be fun for new players. Or a semi automatic 'shooting range' type thing for marine and alien recruits perhaps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are by far the best vids on Ns2!
Noob+ guide<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhcsLX2gMc" target="_blank"> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhcsLX2gMc" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhcsLX2gMc</a></a>
Alien Guide! <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OgNjsBPEoA&list=UUCYj_TS4c######vbsGguzzvbQ&index=1&feature=plcp" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OgNjsBPEoA...mp;feature=plcp</a>
Ns2-Learn Hub vid <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_814264&feature=iv&src_vid=1OgNjsBPEoA&v=eCaxHYKpIbg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id...p;v=eCaxHYKpIbg</a>
oh wait onos requires 75 res?
and then one gl and a scan clears the whole hell out of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhhh looks like we're going to be friends. I'm saying, AS A SKULK, rush. If you don't wish to stay a skulk for most of the game, save your res (I should have said this before). I'm not talking about GLs. That's a marine balance. Not in this thread. And if you need several onos, you either lost or you're going to lose. You already messed up.
*EDIT* "Anyway, I don't see the need for more servers until more people play (sounds bad, but I have never seen every server full, soooo). " EVERY SERVER FULL. L2READ.
*EDIT* "Anyway, I don't see the need for more servers until more people play (sounds bad, but I have never seen every server full, soooo). " EVERY SERVER FULL. L2READ.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so either it is
1. marine (game??) balance not related to aliens fun factor
2. you think being spammed gls fun.
k i will learn to read.
The idea is a strange alien race that is incredibly powerful threatens the stellar frontier, and the marines are sent in to try to fix it up. It's like Starship Troopers, earth technology vs. super warlike biological death machines.
So why does it feel like aliens have absolutely no intrinsic advantage? It honestly feels like the MARINES are invading the ALIENS and we should be sympathetic to them. They come in, they get better technology faster, the aliens have a few pathetic upgrades that offer no actual advantage, they only allow them to try to 'catch up' to the marines.
You would think a game called 'Natural-Selection' talking about lifeforms evolving to combat the enemy would have critters capable of, say, rapidly adapting to changing environments. They roll out flamethrowers, so you evolve a fireproof carapace. They have lots of grenades, so you evolve blast resistant armor. They have slower units, so you evolve better jumping and running.
Instead we have the same five boring lifeforms, two of which are support. We have six crappy upgrades, two of which are hard-countered by a single marine building, one of which is countered by the first weapon upgrade marines get, one that is useless because you'll be dead before you have a chance to regenerate, and two that are 'mandatory' depending on your lifeform, because aliens are so much slower relative to marines in NS1 and two breeds of aliens use so much energy in their attacks they're impotent without the other upgrade.
Marines should be getting upgrades to counter aliens, not vice-versa.
The idea is a strange alien race that is incredibly powerful threatens the stellar frontier, and the marines are sent in to try to fix it up. It's like Starship Troopers, earth technology vs. super warlike biological death machines.
So why does it feel like aliens have absolutely no intrinsic advantage? It honestly feels like the MARINES are invading the ALIENS and we should be sympathetic to them. They come in, they get better technology faster, the aliens have a few pathetic upgrades that offer no actual advantage, they only allow them to try to 'catch up' to the marines.
You would think a game called 'Natural-Selection' talking about lifeforms evolving to combat the enemy would have critters capable of, say, rapidly adapting to changing environments. They roll out flamethrowers, so you evolve a fireproof carapace. They have lots of grenades, so you evolve blast resistant armor. They have slower units, so you evolve better jumping and running.
Instead we have the same five boring lifeforms, two of which are support. We have six crappy upgrades, two of which are hard-countered by a single marine building, one of which is countered by the first weapon upgrade marines get, one that is useless because you'll be dead before you have a chance to regenerate, and two that are 'mandatory' depending on your lifeform, because aliens are so much slower relative to marines in NS1 and two breeds of aliens use so much energy in their attacks they're impotent without the other upgrade.
Marines should be getting upgrades to counter aliens, not vice-versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am a tad confused as well at what is the general strength of the alien race when compared to marines. People say mobility but look at marine tech. People say their ambush and numbers but marines spawn faster. Etc etc etc. im not implying aliens should have counterable upgrades but you are right in saying the pacing of the game seems far from even as an alien.
Also before this thread becomes an l2p spam fest let me reitterate, this is a thread about the enjoyment of aliens not theit balance. For many it is the advantages of the race which make it fun and unique which is why we bring it up. Also many users on here who are voicing concerns have played 100s of hours of the beta, this isnt a new issue.
<a href="http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/05/inline1.jpg" target="_blank">http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ig.../05/inline1.jpg</a>
Now granted, these upgrades are just little buffs to the three bars on the bottom and not much else (it's just a crappy iOS game), but it shows you a lot more imagination in how you evolve. Skulks should have more than just 'skulk with tiny bit more armor' and 'skulk with tiny bit more base speed'. Skulks should be able to evolve many and more complicated abilities with res investment to change how they play.
Say you want to invest in parasite, so you spend some points. The first upgrade makes parasite last a little longer. Then it branches. One branch makes the parasite show the enemy health, and maybe the upgrade after that shows teammates around him. The other branch makes the parasite slowly poison the marine, or causes hallucinations and 'insanity' effects.
The culmination of one parasite branch could be to give the skulk a form of mind control over the enemy, allowing him to open fire on his team for just a few seconds. The other branch could result in killed marine corpses eventually swelling and exploding with snark-like enemies that leap around and claw at enemies in the area.
Another upgrade branch could be focused on Leap. One branch makes leap more powerful, more efficient, and has higher ability effects like a leap + bite does extra damage. The other branch could focus on tackle-style effects, where you leap into a marine and it knocks him to the ground and you can bite away at him, which makes you vulnerable but punishes solo marines and lets skulks knock out key players similar to the Hunters from L4D.
Whenever you die, you risk losing the higher end evolutionary traits... but the longer you live and the better you perform, you can gain random mutations to help you evolve more. This way, the alien team is always changing, adapting to the marines and countering their tactics.
Seriously, why aren't we playing *THAT* game?
<a href="http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/05/inline1.jpg" target="_blank">http://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ig.../05/inline1.jpg</a>
Now granted, these upgrades are just little buffs to the three bars on the bottom and not much else (it's just a crappy iOS game), but it shows you a lot more imagination in how you evolve. Skulks should have more than just 'skulk with tiny bit more armor' and 'skulk with tiny bit more base speed'. Skulks should be able to evolve many and more complicated abilities with res investment to change how they play.
Say you want to invest in parasite, so you spend some points. The first upgrade makes parasite last a little longer. Then it branches. One branch makes the parasite show the enemy health, and maybe the upgrade after that shows teammates around him. The other branch makes the parasite slowly poison the marine, or causes hallucinations and 'insanity' effects.
The culmination of one parasite branch could be to give the skulk a form of mind control over the enemy, allowing him to open fire on his team for just a few seconds. The other branch could result in killed marine corpses eventually swelling and exploding with snark-like enemies that leap around and claw at enemies in the area.
Another upgrade branch could be focused on Leap. One branch makes leap more powerful, more efficient, and has higher ability effects like a leap + bite does extra damage. The other branch could focus on tackle-style effects, where you leap into a marine and it knocks him to the ground and you can bite away at him, which makes you vulnerable but punishes solo marines and lets skulks knock out key players similar to the Hunters from L4D.
Whenever you die, you risk losing the higher end evolutionary traits... but the longer you live and the better you perform, you can gain random mutations to help you evolve more.
Seriously, why aren't we playing *THAT* game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
people with cool ideas never make games :(
I can do this all goddamn day.
Ill prove you wrong with one sentencd. NS2 was made. You were probably being sarcastic though...
@temphage a system you described would wreak havoc on the current balance. I like the idea but i dont know how feasible it is given that the current mission is stomp bugs as it should be.
I like where the idea is heading though, empowering both the player and the alien com.