<!--quoteo(post=2005760:date=Nov 1 2012, 07:17 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Nov 1 2012, 07:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1. Asymmetry is not an argument, because beacon/phasegate is something else. 2. We already had an 'asymmetric', 'creative' solution for that. They made celerity damn fast. When you were attacked, it would slow you down. Sounded like an OK solution, but just didn't work out. Think of something else to solve the issues, I can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why make an equivalent for it? Surely you can balance multiple aspects of the alien side to that sort of advantage, besides, I see no issue in having the marines and aliens being more effective or less when it comes to mid-game/late-game scenarios.
hive teleporting would be great. not like we're placing teleporters in every room after about a 2 minutes of play ;p --- when did the melee team become the least mobile team aswell :( --- stuck with one change then "balanced" everything around it by altering health values instead of looking at core gameplay
Hive teleporting is completely unnecessary in NS2. It doesn't solve the problems aliens have and frankly seems like a really poor solution with how NS2 hive pushes play out. I think fades need a little more health but also a slower fire rate. I also think that armor 3 should be just 3 swipes instead of the 4 that it currently is. Overall, hive teleportation does not belong in NS2.
More than anything I think that the new pub aliens simply need to learn2alien. There are imbalances in the game, but they're not really shown in pubs. All you're seeing is skill imbalances here.
<!--quoteo(post=2005764:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:22 AM:name=Fappuchino)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fappuchino @ Nov 2 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005764"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why make an equivalent for it? Surely you can balance multiple aspects of the alien side to that sort of advantage, besides, I see no issue in having the marines and aliens being more effective or less when it comes to mid-game/late-game scenarios.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah this is not about effectiveness, it's about being fun. You can win by running around the map or just attacking marin base to force a beacon. But shouldn't it be the first option, when it comes to fun, to have both sides fighting like hell with all they got? Right now marines can get all they got whereever they want whenever they want (not Exos, but I don't like that as well), Aliens have to walk around huge maps. And it's not about making an equivalent, it's about getting a function that was damn much fun and that made sense in NS1 to NS2. Please play NS1 and tell me it isn't a good function or doesn't feel asymmetric or doesn't add anything to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2005762:date=Nov 1 2012, 08:19 PM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (6john @ Nov 1 2012, 08:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Check out the skulk wall-jumping tutorial. After watching that and putting in some practice, I love playing skulk and I'm so much better at it.
and for fades, working with shadow-step (hit shift) adds a huge amount of skill and challenge, getting good with it makes you pretty dang awesome.
I'm not saying there are things that can't be tweaked and improved, but the skill of the aliens is where the fun is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can wall jump to my hearts content but if I'm a skulk at 15 minutes against 3 3 marines there is VERY little chance I'm going to get 5 consecutive bites without get shot by I think its 15 bullets ? Might be 10.
Oh I spent 50 rez on a fade ? Well guess what, they spent 10 on a shotgun and just killed me in 2 hits. Also if you are a fade its probably 10ish minutes in meaning they will be in groups of twos and threes.
I just think that these life forms need some help. Its not that I don't understand how high the skill cap of the Aliens are, I've seen some damn good players outplay Marines and I know its possible. But thats VERY good aliens against Marines who are not very good.
<!--quoteo(post=2005772:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:29 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 2 2012, 04:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hive teleporting is completely unnecessary in NS2. It doesn't solve the problems aliens have and frankly seems like a really poor solution with how NS2 hive pushes play out. I think fades need a little more health but also a slower fire rate. I also think that armor 3 should be just 3 swipes instead of the 4 that it currently is. Overall, hive teleportation does not belong in NS2.
More than anything I think that the new pub aliens simply need to learn2alien. There are imbalances in the game, but they're not really shown in pubs. All you're seeing is skill imbalances here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you saying buffing attack/health is a solution to endless walking back and forth?
Aliens are extremely fun! Just now played a 70+ min game mostly as skulk and had a blast. We started out with our Khamm QuilTy and he gave us a shade hive. That was the best, being able to have silence/camo to do ninja destruction on rines and to make them paranoid as all get out. Oh man more Khamms need to consider a shade as it makes skulk play awesomely fun because you are allowed to really live up to your potential. Anyway we went on to get our second hives but the bumbling, and I do mean bumbling, marines took out our hive so we lost leap but we kept on for 50+ minutes. I for the first time took out an exo as skulk(granted he got stuck but details:p). I have never had a better time with a better team and think you need to stop thinking of Skulks as a weak asset before the big hitters because if you play with a go with the flow mentality and play for fun then the quirkiness of the skulk will never disappoint when you do accomplish your goals. Cheers to my fellow skulkers.
<!--quoteo(post=2005745:date=Nov 1 2012, 07:04 PM:name=umphrey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (umphrey @ Nov 1 2012, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005745"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fades are disappointing. I don't know if I just haven't figured them out yet as opposed to NS1, but so far they are just made of glass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually i used to kill at least 20~30 on pub games without any death as a fade in build 222 or something, so in early september. Then i cannot play anymore because of the end of the summer vacation.
I don't know what's changed recently for fades, maybe hit reg, but ns2 fade is also damn good and fun if you know how to play. As you seem like old ns1 player, i think it'd be enough if you use mouse2 and shift key much more than you used to press r key for ns1 fade.
<!--quoteo(post=2005780:date=Nov 1 2012, 08:34 PM:name=Scubbo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scubbo @ Nov 1 2012, 08:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->health changes are kinda moot IMO, doesnt affect the funness of the gameplay<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a quick question to everyone here (btw thanks for everyone being civil and not just saying (NOOB L2Play Alien) I assume from the people commenting they feel semi the same way about the current state of Alien, too much running around and well basically the list that someone else mentioned. So who else feels they need a funness buff ?
it's just no fun having such a weak unit that deals pretty average damage that is also slow and a melee character, just played zombie panic and its so boring because everything is so bloody slow --- what skulk playing feels like, celerity speed should be the base speed for skulks then it would feel a bit more natural and fun -- celerity slow down is also horrible, its an upgrade only for getting to somewhere slightly faster, in combat its useless as you're no more agile really
1) I feel the skulk cannot even compare to the marines once they get a single upgrade. The skulks quickly become useless and eventually are made totally obsolete before mid-game.
2) Why do Gorges even exist? They can't build anything except the easily-destroyed Clog and the super weak Hydra. Their attack is extremely hard to hit things with and the healing spray is slower than a Crag/Hive so teammates don't even go to me for heals - they just run right past me. Only use is bilebombing, which is of limited use because the gorge is so easily killed and costs so much to replace.
Until these are addressed in any way I cannot see myself playing NS2 for more than 10 minutes a day.
<!--quoteo(post=2005778:date=Nov 1 2012, 11:31 PM:name=countbasie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (countbasie @ Nov 1 2012, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you saying buffing attack/health is a solution to endless walking back and forth?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're "endlessly walking back and forth" then you're doing alien wrong. Drifters are practically maphacks. Between them, sound, and some intuition you should be able to position yourself where you need to be. If you can't, then focus on learning where you should be at what times.
One thing I've noticed is the lack of good environment for skulks. The handful of maps I've seen are brightly lit without many places to hide. Even when a power node is destroyed you get about 10 seconds of black before super-bright red lighting all pops on.
Also I object to marines in vents. Always have, always will. Especially since jetpacks still let them blast through the vents like torpedo tubes.
<!--quoteo(post=2005815:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:11 AM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 2 2012, 12:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do not enjoy playing alien AT ALL.
1) I feel the skulk cannot even compare to the marines once they get a single upgrade. The skulks quickly become useless and eventually are made totally obsolete before mid-game.
2) Why do Gorges even exist? They can't build anything except the easily-destroyed Clog and the super weak Hydra. Their attack is extremely hard to hit things with and the healing spray is slower than a Crag/Hive so teammates don't even go to me for heals - they just run right past me. Only use is bilebombing, which is of limited use because the gorge is so easily killed and costs so much to replace.
Until these are addressed in any way I cannot see myself playing NS2 for more than 10 minutes a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Skulks are definitely weaker than marines. That's the way of things. This is one of the reasons why teamwork is so very important as aliens. Let's say you have 5 field players on each team, 2 go left, 2 go right, 1 builds base and scouts. Aliens have the option to hit one side with 4 skulks and then rotate and hit the other side with 4 skulks forcing a 4v2 in the first situation and most likely an advantage in the second encounter as well. The problem? All of the people playing right now are very new. They don't know how to attack at the same time. They don't know how to rotate together. They don't know how to alien.
2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.
<!--quoteo(post=2005823:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:16 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 2 2012, 04:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Skulks are definitely weaker than marines. That's the way of things. This is one of the reasons why teamwork is so very important as aliens. Let's say you have 5 field players on each team, 2 go left, 2 go right, 1 builds base and scouts. Aliens have the option to hit one side with 4 skulks and then rotate and hit the other side with 4 skulks forcing a 4v2 in the first situation and most likely an advantage in the second encounter as well. The problem? All of the people playing right now are very new. They don't know how to attack at the same time. They don't know how to rotate together. They don't know how to alien.
2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're underscoring a problem that existed in NS1 too, mostly in that the aliens only effectively have two tiers of combat. Skulks, and Fades. Everything else is support or endgame. Marines get to enjoy the fun of being effective the entire way through the match, and gradually grow in power. At no point as a marine do you ever really feel powerless. You can grab a shotgun and suddenly you're more useful. Your commander gets you armor upgrades and you're more useful. Then you get more upgrades / weapons / whatever and life just gets better from there.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.
<!--quoteo(post=2005823:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Skulks are definitely weaker than marines. That's the way of things. This is one of the reasons why teamwork is so very important as aliens. Let's say you have 5 field players on each team, 2 go left, 2 go right, 1 builds base and scouts. Aliens have the option to hit one side with 4 skulks and then rotate and hit the other side with 4 skulks forcing a 4v2 in the first situation and most likely an advantage in the second encounter as well. The problem? All of the people playing right now are very new. They don't know how to attack at the same time. They don't know how to rotate together. They don't know how to alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i guess i am just one of those newbies then.
1. organized teams of marines often comes with scans or uses one marine as baits. economically efficient to place a scan when you have a whole team of marines exploring rooms closing to the hive. 2. even in unorganized teams, veterans always seize the change to let some newbie bait whenever possible. 3. the reason why obs and phase gate are almost the very first/second of the tech because of its mobility. when all marines pushes 9 pm and you attack their base in 3 pm direction. they build the gate, bacon right on time, kill you all, then phase back proceeding killing your eggs. 4. shotguns always work wonder against groups of packed skulks with scans/baits. economically, shotguns expenditures are never a issue to comms anymore in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=2005823:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this would result in less fades and other lifeforms which allows marine to turtle up hard. the almost-always result would be some fast gls.
Whatever happened to the lerk spike shotgun concept? I thought that would fix the problem of a power gap between skulk and fade, but we're just back to the 'submachine gun' lerk harassment spikes.
I agree with much of your post, Temphage. I don't think there is a problem with having setups like 1-2 gorges, 1-2 lerks, 2-4 skulk. These classes aren't useless in battles despite being more support units. The combination of them is what makes aliens viable throughout the mid and late game. Lerks are actually quite powerful fighters and far more powerful at defending than even leap skulks. Aliens are definitely much more diversified, but I supposed it could be considered similar to marines performing roles. IE 2 marines building RTs (support, of sorts) while the other 3-6 marines are pushing. And in the push there is maybe 1-2 GLs, 2 shotguns, and the rest rifles. Each one has particular advantages. If they were playing individually then they would easily be considered 'obsolete' as well.
As for very late game, I think marines have a distinct advantage due to aliens' lack of health scaling. The t3 abilities are generally underutilized (umbra), buggy (stomp), or bad (xenocide/vortex). Also the 3rd hive requirement can be difficult to achieve on some maps and is practically a condition for victory on veil. One advantage aliens have in this situation is to bleed the other team's pres. Fades and onos should never die if they're playing very well. Marines simply don't have that luxury. Pubs have this a lot harder because the overall skill level is far lower than in competitive games. This causes end game w3a3 marines with jetpacks to be very hard to kill.
In all of the years that I played NS1, I never commanded a full game even once, because I just didn't have any fun as marines. Earlier today though, I commanded my first game ever (as aliens,) and won.
Was a little tough because the alien tech tree is far different from NS1, and I didn't even have a grasp on some of the fundamental decisions you have to make as an alien commander, even though I have been playing pretty much only aliens for the last few days. I picked it up pretty quickly though.
<!--quoteo(post=2005835:date=Nov 2 2012, 02:23 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're underscoring a problem that existed in NS1 too, mostly in that the aliens only effectively have two tiers of combat. Skulks, and Fades. Everything else is support or endgame. Marines get to enjoy the fun of being effective the entire way through the match, and gradually grow in power. At no point as a marine do you ever really feel powerless. You can grab a shotgun and suddenly you're more useful. Your commander gets you armor upgrades and you're more useful. Then you get more upgrades / weapons / whatever and life just gets better from there.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2005835:date=Nov 1 2012, 08:23 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 1 2012, 08:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're underscoring a problem that existed in NS1 too, mostly in that the aliens only effectively have two tiers of combat. Skulks, and Fades. Everything else is support or endgame. Marines get to enjoy the fun of being effective the entire way through the match, and gradually grow in power. At no point as a marine do you ever really feel powerless. You can grab a shotgun and suddenly you're more useful. Your commander gets you armor upgrades and you're more useful. Then you get more upgrades / weapons / whatever and life just gets better from there.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really hit on the reason why I don't find the aliens enjoyable to play. I'm not an experienced NS player - which means I can Marine alright but I all I do is die as an alien, especially if the marines have upgraded. I would be more alright with the Gorge if they actually gave it some useful structures to build - but I think the skulk is a complete joke. As a skulk, what the hell am I supposed to do against duel-chaingun exos and jetpacking GL's? Fade/Onos are very expensive and I usually cannot afford them. Hell, I usually can't even afford a Gorge (why does a support role require so much res?)
<!--quoteo(post=2005859:date=Nov 1 2012, 08:54 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 1 2012, 08:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005859"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One advantage aliens have in this situation is to bleed the other team's pres. Fades and onos should never die if they're playing very well. Marines simply don't have that luxury. Pubs have this a lot harder because the overall skill level is far lower than in competitive games. This causes end game w3a3 marines with jetpacks to be very hard to kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So is NS2 brave enough to actually make people coordinate entirely different on one side, as opposed to balancing everything on 1 : 1 scale as equals?
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
Aliens lack in fun factor?
Oh. Okay. I guess if fun is playing every FPS ever, then yeah, aliens lack that.
NolSinkler is NOT amused. Aliens are more fun, and have always been more fun, than marines will ever be. And so in my mind this thread is a complete failure. I've never played a game with a fun factor like that of the Kharaa.
<!--quoteo(post=2005966:date=Nov 1 2012, 10:41 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Nov 1 2012, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Aliens lack in fun factor?
Oh. Okay. I guess if fun is playing every FPS ever, then yeah, aliens lack that.
NolSinkler is NOT amused. Aliens are more fun, and have always been more fun, than marines will ever be. And so in my mind this thread is a complete failure. I've never played a game with a fun factor like that of the Kharaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need to work on understanding that people don't always share your opinion.
<!--quoteo(post=2005835:date=Nov 1 2012, 09:23 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 1 2012, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're underscoring a problem that existed in NS1 too, mostly in that the aliens only effectively have two tiers of combat. Skulks, and Fades. Everything else is support or endgame. Marines get to enjoy the fun of being effective the entire way through the match, and gradually grow in power. At no point as a marine do you ever really feel powerless. You can grab a shotgun and suddenly you're more useful. Your commander gets you armor upgrades and you're more useful. Then you get more upgrades / weapons / whatever and life just gets better from there.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with this. I think Aliens need an overhaul for many of the reasons which were already listed.
Also NolSinkler please if you are going to post something say more than "THIS THREAD SUCKS CAUSE MY OPINION IS DIFFERENT."
Comments
and for fades, working with shadow-step (hit shift) adds a huge amount of skill and challenge, getting good with it makes you pretty dang awesome.
I'm not saying there are things that can't be tweaked and improved, but the skill of the aliens is where the fun is.
2. We already had an 'asymmetric', 'creative' solution for that. They made celerity damn fast. When you were attacked, it would slow you down. Sounded like an OK solution, but just didn't work out.
Think of something else to solve the issues, I can't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why make an equivalent for it? Surely you can balance multiple aspects of the alien side to that sort of advantage, besides, I see no issue in having the marines and aliens being more effective or less when it comes to mid-game/late-game scenarios.
More than anything I think that the new pub aliens simply need to learn2alien. There are imbalances in the game, but they're not really shown in pubs. All you're seeing is skill imbalances here.
Yeah this is not about effectiveness, it's about being fun. You can win by running around the map or just attacking marin base to force a beacon. But shouldn't it be the first option, when it comes to fun, to have both sides fighting like hell with all they got? Right now marines can get all they got whereever they want whenever they want (not Exos, but I don't like that as well), Aliens have to walk around huge maps.
And it's not about making an equivalent, it's about getting a function that was damn much fun and that made sense in NS1 to NS2. Please play NS1 and tell me it isn't a good function or doesn't feel asymmetric or doesn't add anything to the game.
and for fades, working with shadow-step (hit shift) adds a huge amount of skill and challenge, getting good with it makes you pretty dang awesome.
I'm not saying there are things that can't be tweaked and improved, but the skill of the aliens is where the fun is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can wall jump to my hearts content but if I'm a skulk at 15 minutes against 3 3 marines there is VERY little chance I'm going to get 5 consecutive bites without get shot by I think its 15 bullets ? Might be 10.
Oh I spent 50 rez on a fade ? Well guess what, they spent 10 on a shotgun and just killed me in 2 hits. Also if you are a fade its probably 10ish minutes in meaning they will be in groups of twos and threes.
I just think that these life forms need some help. Its not that I don't understand how high the skill cap of the Aliens are, I've seen some damn good players outplay Marines and I know its possible. But thats VERY good aliens against Marines who are not very good.
More than anything I think that the new pub aliens simply need to learn2alien. There are imbalances in the game, but they're not really shown in pubs. All you're seeing is skill imbalances here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you saying buffing attack/health is a solution to endless walking back and forth?
Cheers to my fellow skulkers.
Actually i used to kill at least 20~30 on pub games without any death as a fade in build 222 or something, so in early september. Then i cannot play anymore because of the end of the summer vacation.
I don't know what's changed recently for fades, maybe hit reg, but ns2 fade is also damn good and fun if you know how to play. As you seem like old ns1 player, i think it'd be enough if you use mouse2 and shift key much more than you used to press r key for ns1 fade.
Just a quick question to everyone here (btw thanks for everyone being civil and not just saying (NOOB L2Play Alien) I assume from the people commenting they feel semi the same way about the current state of Alien, too much running around and well basically the list that someone else mentioned. So who else feels they need a funness buff ?
1) I feel the skulk cannot even compare to the marines once they get a single upgrade. The skulks quickly become useless and eventually are made totally obsolete before mid-game.
2) Why do Gorges even exist? They can't build anything except the easily-destroyed Clog and the super weak Hydra. Their attack is extremely hard to hit things with and the healing spray is slower than a Crag/Hive so teammates don't even go to me for heals - they just run right past me. Only use is bilebombing, which is of limited use because the gorge is so easily killed and costs so much to replace.
Until these are addressed in any way I cannot see myself playing NS2 for more than 10 minutes a day.
If you're "endlessly walking back and forth" then you're doing alien wrong. Drifters are practically maphacks. Between them, sound, and some intuition you should be able to position yourself where you need to be. If you can't, then focus on learning where you should be at what times.
Also I object to marines in vents. Always have, always will. Especially since jetpacks still let them blast through the vents like torpedo tubes.
1) I feel the skulk cannot even compare to the marines once they get a single upgrade. The skulks quickly become useless and eventually are made totally obsolete before mid-game.
2) Why do Gorges even exist? They can't build anything except the easily-destroyed Clog and the super weak Hydra. Their attack is extremely hard to hit things with and the healing spray is slower than a Crag/Hive so teammates don't even go to me for heals - they just run right past me. Only use is bilebombing, which is of limited use because the gorge is so easily killed and costs so much to replace.
Until these are addressed in any way I cannot see myself playing NS2 for more than 10 minutes a day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Skulks are definitely weaker than marines. That's the way of things. This is one of the reasons why teamwork is so very important as aliens. Let's say you have 5 field players on each team, 2 go left, 2 go right, 1 builds base and scouts. Aliens have the option to hit one side with 4 skulks and then rotate and hit the other side with 4 skulks forcing a 4v2 in the first situation and most likely an advantage in the second encounter as well. The problem? All of the people playing right now are very new. They don't know how to attack at the same time. They don't know how to rotate together. They don't know how to alien.
2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.
2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're underscoring a problem that existed in NS1 too, mostly in that the aliens only effectively have two tiers of combat. Skulks, and Fades. Everything else is support or endgame. Marines get to enjoy the fun of being effective the entire way through the match, and gradually grow in power. At no point as a marine do you ever really feel powerless. You can grab a shotgun and suddenly you're more useful. Your commander gets you armor upgrades and you're more useful. Then you get more upgrades / weapons / whatever and life just gets better from there.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.
i guess i am just one of those newbies then.
1. organized teams of marines often comes with scans or uses one marine as baits. economically efficient to place a scan when you have a whole team of marines exploring rooms closing to the hive.
2. even in unorganized teams, veterans always seize the change to let some newbie bait whenever possible.
3. the reason why obs and phase gate are almost the very first/second of the tech because of its mobility. when all marines pushes 9 pm and you attack their base in 3 pm direction. they build the gate, bacon right on time, kill you all, then phase back proceeding killing your eggs.
4. shotguns always work wonder against groups of packed skulks with scans/baits. economically, shotguns expenditures are never a issue to comms anymore in ns2.
<!--quoteo(post=2005823:date=Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Nov 2 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2005823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) Gorges are very, very good if used properly. Your statement implies that gorges, clogs, and hydras are weak but experienced players know the advantage of defending territory with a clog wall, some well placed hydras, and a gorge to fall back to and heal. Gorges also greatly reduce building time and are instrumental in delaying ninja marines or RT pushes. They're not as easy as they seem. Really good gorges do a lot of work toward winning. As much as any great skulk or fade. Healing spray heals faster than both crags and hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this would result in less fades and other lifeforms which allows marine to turtle up hard. the almost-always result would be some fast gls.
As for very late game, I think marines have a distinct advantage due to aliens' lack of health scaling. The t3 abilities are generally underutilized (umbra), buggy (stomp), or bad (xenocide/vortex). Also the 3rd hive requirement can be difficult to achieve on some maps and is practically a condition for victory on veil. One advantage aliens have in this situation is to bleed the other team's pres. Fades and onos should never die if they're playing very well. Marines simply don't have that luxury. Pubs have this a lot harder because the overall skill level is far lower than in competitive games. This causes end game w3a3 marines with jetpacks to be very hard to kill.
In all of the years that I played NS1, I never commanded a full game even once, because I just didn't have any fun as marines. Earlier today though, I commanded my first game ever (as aliens,) and won.
Was a little tough because the alien tech tree is far different from NS1, and I didn't even have a grasp on some of the fundamental decisions you have to make as an alien commander, even though I have been playing pretty much only aliens for the last few days. I picked it up pretty quickly though.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really hit on the reason why I don't find the aliens enjoyable to play. I'm not an experienced NS player - which means I can Marine alright but I all I do is die as an alien, especially if the marines have upgraded. I would be more alright with the Gorge if they actually gave it some useful structures to build - but I think the skulk is a complete joke. As a skulk, what the hell am I supposed to do against duel-chaingun exos and jetpacking GL's? Fade/Onos are very expensive and I usually cannot afford them. Hell, I usually can't even afford a Gorge (why does a support role require so much res?)
So is NS2 brave enough to actually make people coordinate entirely different on one side, as opposed to balancing everything on 1 : 1 scale as equals?
Oh. Okay. I guess if fun is playing every FPS ever, then yeah, aliens lack that.
NolSinkler is NOT amused. Aliens are more fun, and have always been more fun, than marines will ever be. And so in my mind this thread is a complete failure. I've never played a game with a fun factor like that of the Kharaa.
Oh. Okay. I guess if fun is playing every FPS ever, then yeah, aliens lack that.
NolSinkler is NOT amused. Aliens are more fun, and have always been more fun, than marines will ever be. And so in my mind this thread is a complete failure. I've never played a game with a fun factor like that of the Kharaa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you need to work on understanding that people don't always share your opinion.
Aliens really needed an interim combat lifeform. Skulks start off slightly more powerful than vanilla marines, but as soon as armor 1 is researched they immediately become slightly less powerful and it just gets worse from there. Suddenly they get Fades and they spike in power again, and (assuming they don't stop marine expansion) they once again slowly slide down the power scale.
Effectively aliens only have two combat units. Skulk bite and fade slash. It's not hard to see why people would see this getting old and boring. The reason I quit playing NS1 was because by the time v3.0 rolled around, the alien team eventually became <i>heavily</i> reliant on teamwork and gimmicks which was <b>not</b> the original vision. The commander was the only guy needed to 'run support' whereas the aliens HAD to have someone dedicating themselves to gorging. And you HAD to have someone playing Lerk, who was good at it, to survive at all. The Aliens have to have MORE players in support roles and they have to outplay the marines just to be on even ground.
This may have been acceptable when the aliens didn't have a commander, but now they do, so why the hell do Aliens still need to dedicate several players to second-tier support roles *AND* have a commander? This just puts even more of a burden on the reduced number of players who are in combat roles.
8v8 = 1 marine commander and 7 marines, and 1 alien commander, 1 gorge, 1 lerk, 5 skulks which quickly become obsolete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree with this. I think Aliens need an overhaul for many of the reasons which were already listed.
Also NolSinkler please if you are going to post something say more than "THIS THREAD SUCKS CAUSE MY OPINION IS DIFFERENT."