I actually like the pedestrian nature of alien gameplay. It's definitely engaging having to watch your steps lest you walk into a small patrouille on your way to the action on the other side, and makes you get more accustomed to the levels.
Phase gates are okay too, but alien movement is definitely more fun. If anything I'd remove the phase gate to force more cautious advances and generally slow it down a bit.
The best thing about playing aliens is not having to bother with your teammates blurring your view with light cones because of flashlight abuse. They're useless for 95% of the game anyway. It's really a fairly bright game.
I ventured over the Steam forum for NS2. In the first two pages:
- MARINES TO OP OR ALIENS TOO HARD TO PLAY AS?
- Overpowered power suits for marines?
- Huge let-down.
- Serious balance issues?
- Problem with Balancing
Every topic that isn't that are people complaining about being unable to join servers, empty server list, terrible performance, and the fact that nobody at UWE has communicated with anyone at all.
Well then I guess I can just save some waiting time and just uninstall it to get my SSD space back.
I read through some of those Steam forum posts. I find it disturbing that people think that the Alien players should just "try harder". They think it's ok to have one team be easy to play and one hard to play. Baffles my mind.
<!--quoteo(post=2007363:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:13 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I ventured over the Steam forum for NS2. In the first two pages:
- MARINES TO OP OR ALIENS TOO HARD TO PLAY AS?
- Overpowered power suits for marines?
- Huge let-down.
- Serious balance issues?
- Problem with Balancing
Every topic that isn't that are people complaining about being unable to join servers, empty server list, terrible performance, and the fact that nobody at UWE has communicated with anyone at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a combination of 2 things. One the Alien Skill Ceiling is sky high where as Marines point their mouse at what they want to die and win. And Aliens need to be given a significant change for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2007374:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:21 PM:name=Goden)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Goden @ Nov 2 2012, 07:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well then I guess I can just save some waiting time and just uninstall it to get my SSD space back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Might as well. Poor game play and lack of scaling as aliens have been huge topics during beta with very little dev communication or any serious attempts to rectify the issues brought up that wasn't just bandaid fixes that did nothing in the end.
Called this out months ago. Servers are only going to become more and more empty.
hmm, if i think about...u are right since 223 i don't play much aliens. i mostly played marines, because they got so many toys and makes so much fun. its just awesome to hunt down every alien (except onos) with a shotgun, two hits(except skulk) and every alien is dead. specially if you get a fade, this is fun, because 50 res lost and you kill one fade. two fades are tough, but if i play aliens, its very hard to team up with another fade, most people run like chickens alone. thats maybe another reason, marines team up way more then aliens. also its fun as marine to kill cysts and watch their structures dying. as alien you have to bite like 1 hour rts and powernodes, not very fun. i don't know, but its more fun as marine to axe a harvester, then bite a resource tower of marines as skulk. oh and did i mention how freaking fun it is, to burn down alien stuff? Cysts die in seconds, this is so fun. so i play 3 of 10 games as aliens. i think the old "builder" gorge just have to come back, so he can support his team way better, i don't see any problem allow a gorge to build harvester/chambers such as shift, shade and crags...hydras also a bit useless, i don't remember perfect but i know that in ns1 the offensive chamber was way better and the aim was billion times better. i have the feeling the hydras are blind or retarded, they can't aim very good and have a delay or something...i don't know, something wrong with them. don't worth the 9 res, they cost.
<!--quoteo(post=2007304:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:36 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm moving so that'll give them a few months to sort out their sh*t during which I won't be playing, but I'm in the same boat. Probably not playing Alien anymore.
I only just learned that Celerity doesn't even work when you attack.
Seriously?
<b>SERIOUSLY?</b>
It's like the devs just had a massive hardon for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it makes me so many times so fudding mad. as onos fade or gorge if you get hit you can't use celerity and you walk like a wounded duck... so your death is 99% sure, another reason why i play marines way more. and i am very sure, people think the same like me, thats why most people don't play aliens anymore. it is just so frustrating! but sometimes its a very fun challenge, so if you have very good player in your team, playing aliens can be very fun, thats why i said 3 of 10 games im in the alien team. it can be fun, but you need pro gamer in your team, in marine team you just have to click left mousebutton and wait for exo and jetpacks, very simple, you can not lose and get frustrated so much as aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2007396:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:35 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Nov 2 2012, 07:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Might as well. Poor game play and lack of scaling as aliens have been huge topics during beta with very little dev communication or any serious attempts to rectify the issues brought up that wasn't just bandaid fixes that did nothing in the end.
Called this out months ago. Servers are only going to become more and more empty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> why are you still here
- Hivesight has been almost entirely removed. "Structure is under attack!" Oh yeah? What structure? Where? Why can't I see what's going on? I can't even see our hive locations! This is awful. No minimap, I'm tired of having to have the map open for 80% of the game just to see what's going on and who is where.
- Lighting. The default lighting of most maps is incredibly bright. Even deeply recessed corners are extremely bright. The emergency lighting is as bright, if not brighter than the lighting it replaced.
- Marine turtle-tech. Rather than go the interesting route and make the game about tech node control, it's simply about just kind of dancing around each other until you eventually try to destroy each other's bases. 98% of Marine tech is T1. Aliens, which have limited ability to move around the map, are forced to spread extremely thin.
- Alien upgrades are dull, uninspired, and so poorly balanced that there's no choice in what you should get. Carapace on everything. Adrenalin for Gorges, Fades, Celerity if anything else.
- Shotguns are a 'soft counter' to literally everything. Which makes them a hard counter.
- Armory camping / grenade launcher spamming has really no counter.
- Marine crackhopping was reviled in NS1, so the devs made sure to return it to NS2.
- Marines can now sprint, giving them skulk speeds to move around. And whack things away with their guns.
- D/M/S build order is back. Oh boy.
- Carapace is pathetic. None of the alien abilities scale. Carapace apparently exists to only put a single given alien ON PAR against a marine with A1 / W1 upgrades. Carapace at Hive 1 is Carapace at Hive 5, and that is why it's garbage. Regeneration is not even a choice, because Fades are so piss-weak without Carapace that they are no match at all for marines with even the most basic upgrades. The Khamm should be able to research T1 through T3 upgrades, or they should be automatically tied to your tech level. A Fade should NOT be dropped by just a couple of marines with shotguns.
- The entire Shade tech tree is hard-countered by an Observatory. Which is fine because the Aliens totally get hard counters to - wait - they get counters to nothing. As long as Observatories are this powerful, nobody will ever use Shade seriously. It's a gimmick and nothing more.
- Skulks lose almost all effectiveness by the midgame. Xenocide simply punishes the player using it and barely puts a scratch in A3 marines. You're deliberately putting yourself back in the 15 second queue for some damage that is quickly repaired, a queue that earns you NO resources.
- Celerity ultra-nerfed, has no effect if you're attacking which is when you'd want it.
- Leap and skulk movement ultra-nerfed. Leap cannot even reach jetpackers, and gives no damage bonus when you leap into enemies.
- Skulks feel as if they have a speed cap. When you wall jump or use leap, there's a huge slowdown like you hit a wall after you move a short distance.
- Focus is gone, which removed the ONLY counter Aliens ever had to armor upgrades. This was the closest aliens ever got to weapon upgrades. Now, a Hive 1 skulk can only ever do as much damage as he does at that moment, and marines only get stronger and harder to kill.
- Blink is slow, obvious, you take full damage while blinking and get constantly hammered by sentries.
- Vortex consumes way too much adrenalin, is so short you don't even have time to kill a single marine before the guy is back, has an incredibly short range and limited area effect, and in general is not worth it whatsoever.
- Stomp has extremely limited range and takes so long to execute I thought it was a bug at first.
- Marines blocking doorways with buildings is back. Because this was such a fun feature in NS1... defending your base with walls of robotics facilities and an army of MACs effectively making it Onos proof and giving you a HUGE buffer against attack.
- No counter to jetpacks. Lerks are easily swatted and have quite inferior damage that cannot compete. Skulks can no longer reach. Onos can no longer paralyze. Fade is your only safe bet, and Fade is fairly 'meh' at it due to the difficulty of perfectly timed blink/swipes.
- Aliens lost about half of their toys. Where is Web, exactly? The Onos sprint 'charge' does absolutely no damage. Marines lost... hand grenades. And got a tech 1 mobile siege gun that costs less than a shotgun to research and build.
- Huge amounts of incredibly dull downtime for aliens. No rapid movement system. Outrageously long spawn queue. Outrageously long egg time after that.
- No siege abilities for aliens. Lerks cannot even project spores anymore.
- Aliens are only really competitive when they outplay marines. Competitive, not dominant. Game design that requires one team to naturally be better and more coordinated than the other is completely bonkers. Alien gameplay relies on lots of tight-nit teamwork and communication, marines need almost zero communication and minimal teamwork, only simple group tactics.
Some of this design, like the Onos charge doing no damage, leap doing no damage, celerity being nerfed, carapace not scaling whatsoever... it's bad on paper, it's bad on practice, and it just reeks of massive developer favoritism to the marine side.
Our only real hope is probably in the hands of the modders. Maybe they can sort this mess out.
<!--quoteo(post=2007322:date=Nov 2 2012, 10:48 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its kind of a moot upgrade unless all you do is run around the map chomping rez nodes and avoiding Marines. Which only one/two people should do at any given time or else you completely forfeit to their push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think you understand sir.
This thread just seems to be an outlet for people who cant use aliens...
I'm here because I know the devs are committed to making this game the best it can be. I know the devs care more about this game than anyone else and have given so much love into it. I don't want this thread to become "I'm quitting 4ever! The games not PERFECT on release." I want this thread to be "Hey, we are the player base, we thinking Aliens need changes for these reasons and we want this game to succeed."
@PsympleJester Some people may use it for that, theirs no way to control it. I'd like to think the majority of players are here for the betterment of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2007406:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:40 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 2 2012, 07:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007406"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->why are you still here<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does it bother you that I'm still here?
Besides, it's interesting to watch. Not to mention I paid for this game too.
<!--quoteo(post=2007419:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:48 PM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Nov 2 2012, 11:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007419"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it bother you that I'm still here?
Besides, it's interesting to watch. Not to mention I paid for this game too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It bothers me that if you spend half as much time practicing skulk as you did looking for more flaws you might not need to vent so much skulk rage! :D
<!--quoteo(post=2007424:date=Nov 2 2012, 07:49 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 07:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007424"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It bothers me that if you spend half as much time practicing skulk as you did looking for more flaws you might not need to vent so much skulk rage! :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I put nearly 160 hours into skulk and alien com play.
I think I have a firm grasp on how to play skulks, thanks.
<!--quoteo(post=2007322:date=Nov 2 2012, 06:48 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007322"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its kind of a moot upgrade unless all you do is run around the map chomping rez nodes and avoiding Marines. Which only one/two people should do at any given time or else you completely forfeit to their push.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As someone who thinks cele is best upgrade on any lifeform I couldnt disagree more.
But aliens do have the tendency to suck on occasion, the fact that they require more complex and coordinated teamwork than marines just clinches it.
<!--quoteo(post=2007444:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:58 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 2 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone who thinks cele is best upgrade on any lifeform I couldnt disagree more.
But aliens do have the tendency to suck on occasion, the fact that they require more complex and coordinated teamwork than marines just clinches it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2007417:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:46 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Nov 2 2012, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread just seems to be an outlet for people who cant use aliens...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One team shouldn't have to naturally outplay and outskill the enemy team simply to be competitive, which is the case right now. If you take an alien with good aliens kills, and you put him against a marine with exactly comparable marine skills, the marine will still be more powerful. Give him a shotgun and it just goes sideways.
The shotgun should have a massive (-50% to -75%) damage penalty when attacking armor. This would make it useful against aliens with light armor that is breached quickly, but a Fade and Onos would require revisiting tactics and make shotgun users mulch. This would make the shotgun good against weak, quick enemies, like lerks and skulks, but useless against bigger enemies and structures.
But no, it makes more sense to have it do full damage against them, even though a bigger target = more pellets land = more damage done, which against a Carapace fade with T2 weapons means a single shotgun blast = 40% damage done.
You know, if they really wanted to emphasize alien skill, why didn't they give all aliens a natural 'backstab' bonus against marines, where all attacks to the back do double damage? Suddenly, a counter to armor upgrades! Suddenly, a more effective skulk-based counter to exosuits!
But here I go thinking again... it's this same kind of dangerous thinking that proposed marines have their weapon / armor upgrades locked to their tech level too...
Its quite simple, celerety makes you faster... Bunny hopping maintains speed. Celerety may stop working but you still maintain the speed, in combat or not.
They removed bunny hopping and replaced it with a strange momentum building/maintaining system that is simple to learn and pretty difficult to master... doesn't help that no one bothers to try.
You dont lose momentum after biting, only the increased acceleration so if you have no intention of standing still you will rarely notice the difference. For the longest time I thought they had removed the slow down on attack since I did not notice myself losing speed at all as a skulk, fade or lerk. Then I played gorge, and spitting was like hitting the parking brake.
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.
<!--quoteo(post=2007456:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:04 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 2 2012, 05:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007456"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You dont lose momentum after biting, only the increased acceleration so if you have no intention of standing still you will rarely notice the difference. For the longest time I thought they had removed the slow down on attack since I did not notice myself losing speed at all as a skulk, fade or lerk. Then I played gorge, and spitting was like hitting the parking brake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity increases your base movement speed though right ?
<!--quoteo(post=2007458:date=Nov 2 2012, 04:05 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I forgot!
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The list of reasons to play this game just keeps shorter and shorter and shorter.
<!--quoteo(post=2007462:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:07 PM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 2 2012, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity increases your base movement speed though right ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And your max walljump speed as well I believe, Im not really sure how the physics work in this game (when they do, which isnt always) but all I can say is that I have never really noticed myself losing speed a skulk or fade from attacking/getting shot. It might be just me of course.
I started out sympathetic but after reading much of your whining and absurd nerf ideas for marines I've come to the conclusion that you just suck as aliens and are unwilling to put in the time to learn (which can be fun, I know I had fun learning and there werent all these noobs around during the mid beta). True the game is not balanced, but nerfing marines is hardly the way to balance it. As for marines not having glancing blows, you are right they just do no damage if they miss.
<!--quoteo(post=2007458:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:05 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I forgot!
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because free damaged even to people who miss is a dps nerf... Sence?
<!--quoteo(post=2007461:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Says the guy who's throwing out equally bull###### claims like 'I can Fade against three shotgun marines and win on a routine basis'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its called hit and run sir, you leave... then you come back. Eventually they are all dead.
<!--quoteo(post=2007472:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to feed the troll here, but: We played several beta patches with different iterations of skulk bite, some of them with just the center full damage cone and no side cones. This version of bite is the best so far. It still rewards skilled players for landing solid hits while allowing new players to hit something. In a way, it mirrors marine LMG play: less skilled players will spray and hit some of the bullets, while skilled players will land more hits. So it is also with the bite. My only gripes with the current bite model are that the 25 dmg cone might do well with a removal and the 50 dmg cone should be lowered to 45 dmg so that 2 glancing hits wouldn't kill an armourless marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm but 75, 45, 45 would still fully kill a A0 marine... interesting :)
<!--quoteo(post=2007465:date=Nov 2 2012, 05:10 PM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 2 2012, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I started out sympathetic but after reading much of your whining and absurd nerf ideas for marines I've come to the conclusion that you just suck as aliens and are unwilling to put in the time to learn (which can be fun, I know I had fun learning and there werent all these noobs around during the mid beta). True the game is not balanced, but nerfing marines is hardly the way to balance it. As for marines not having glancing blows, you are right they just do no damage if they miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please be polite. The truth is though, nerfing Marines isn't going to make Aliens more fun.
<!--quoteo(post=2007458:date=Nov 3 2012, 03:05 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 03:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh and I forgot!
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to feed the troll here, but: We played several beta patches with different iterations of skulk bite, some of them with just the center full damage cone and no side cones. This version of bite is the best so far. It still rewards skilled players for landing solid hits while allowing new players to hit something. In a way, it mirrors marine LMG play: less skilled players will spray and hit some of the bullets, while skilled players will land more hits. So it is also with the bite. My only gripes with the current bite model are that the 25 dmg cone might do well with a removal and the 50 dmg cone should be lowered to 45 dmg so that 2 glancing hits wouldn't kill an armourless marine.
<!--quoteo(post=2007465:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:10 AM:name=1dominator1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1dominator1 @ Nov 3 2012, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I started out sympathetic but after reading much of your whining and absurd nerf ideas for marines I've come to the conclusion that you just suck as aliens and are unwilling to put in the time to learn (which can be fun, I know I had fun learning and there werent all these noobs around during the mid beta). True the game is not balanced, but nerfing marines is hardly the way to balance it. As for marines not having glancing blows, you are right they just do no damage if they miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nerf ideas? Like what? Like making the shotgun not a hard counter to EVERYTHING?
It takes exactly ONE game as a Marine to notice that the shotgun is pretty much the only weapon you ever need.
Aside from that, my only marine 'nerf ideas' revolve completely around forcing marines to be tied to tech nodes exactly like aliens. ARCs, jetpacks, and dual minigun exos become T3. Weapon / armor upgrades are trapped to your tech level.
Things like crackhopping, building blocking, and armory fortresses of infinite health / ammo are entirely different problems.
Oh and nerfing the Observatory, but I'd love to hear your justification as to why an entire Hive's worth of upgrades should all be countered by the same building.
<!--quoteo(post=2007472:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It still rewards skilled players for landing solid hits while allowing new players to hit something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it doesn't 'reward' them with anything. It 'rewards' them with the exact damage they're supposed to do. All this means is that your 'average' player will go from taking 5 solid bites to kill an A3 marine to requiring 12 or more. This puts the TTK against such a marine in the order of 10-20 SECONDS. It also lends so much survivability to jetpack marines that it literally boggles the mind - that is, if skulks could even reach a jetpack marine that doesn't want to get bit.
A reward is something extra you get. Right now you're rewarded with the same ###### damage a skulk is supposed to do. That isn't a reward. The glancing blow damage is so low that it is useless.
The sensible move would've been to increase damage or lower marine health to make up for it, so SOLID HITS are rewarded by FASTER kills, a mix of solid and glancing hits are AVERAGE kills, and glancing hits are SLOW kills. Instead, solid hits are AVERAGE, a mix of SLOW, and just glancing is DEAD.
A W3 marine can kill a skulk in literally half a second, a quick burst of five or six bullets. Why shouldn't a Skulk who gets a really good hit do the same to the marine? Wait, we had this once, it was called Focus, and people liked it. HMMM...
Comments
Phase gates are okay too, but alien movement is definitely more fun. If anything I'd remove the phase gate to force more cautious advances and generally slow it down a bit.
The best thing about playing aliens is not having to bother with your teammates blurring your view with light cones because of flashlight abuse. They're useless for 95% of the game anyway. It's really a fairly bright game.
- MARINES TO OP OR ALIENS TOO HARD TO PLAY AS?
- Overpowered power suits for marines?
- Huge let-down.
- Serious balance issues?
- Problem with Balancing
Every topic that isn't that are people complaining about being unable to join servers, empty server list, terrible performance, and the fact that nobody at UWE has communicated with anyone at all.
I read through some of those Steam forum posts. I find it disturbing that people think that the Alien players should just "try harder". They think it's ok to have one team be easy to play and one hard to play. Baffles my mind.
- MARINES TO OP OR ALIENS TOO HARD TO PLAY AS?
- Overpowered power suits for marines?
- Huge let-down.
- Serious balance issues?
- Problem with Balancing
Every topic that isn't that are people complaining about being unable to join servers, empty server list, terrible performance, and the fact that nobody at UWE has communicated with anyone at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is a combination of 2 things. One the Alien Skill Ceiling is sky high where as Marines point their mouse at what they want to die and win. And Aliens need to be given a significant change for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
Might as well. Poor game play and lack of scaling as aliens have been huge topics during beta with very little dev communication or any serious attempts to rectify the issues brought up that wasn't just bandaid fixes that did nothing in the end.
Called this out months ago. Servers are only going to become more and more empty.
its just awesome to hunt down every alien (except onos) with a shotgun, two hits(except skulk) and every alien is dead. specially if you get a fade, this is fun, because 50 res lost and you kill one fade. two fades are tough, but if i play aliens, its very hard to team up with another fade, most people run like chickens alone.
thats maybe another reason, marines team up way more then aliens. also its fun as marine to kill cysts and watch their structures dying.
as alien you have to bite like 1 hour rts and powernodes, not very fun. i don't know, but its more fun as marine to axe a harvester, then bite a resource tower of marines as skulk. oh and did i mention how freaking fun it is, to burn down alien stuff? Cysts die in seconds, this is so fun. so i play 3 of 10 games as aliens. i think the old "builder" gorge just have to come back, so he can support his team way better, i don't see any problem allow a gorge to build harvester/chambers such as shift, shade and crags...hydras also a bit useless, i don't remember perfect but i know that in ns1 the offensive chamber was way better and the aim was billion times better.
i have the feeling the hydras are blind or retarded, they can't aim very good and have a delay or something...i don't know, something wrong with them.
don't worth the 9 res, they cost.
<!--quoteo(post=2007304:date=Nov 2 2012, 11:36 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 11:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm moving so that'll give them a few months to sort out their sh*t during which I won't be playing, but I'm in the same boat. Probably not playing Alien anymore.
I only just learned that Celerity doesn't even work when you attack.
Seriously?
<b>SERIOUSLY?</b>
It's like the devs just had a massive hardon for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it makes me so many times so fudding mad. as onos fade or gorge if you get hit you can't use celerity and you walk like a wounded duck...
so your death is 99% sure, another reason why i play marines way more. and i am very sure, people think the same like me, thats why most people don't play aliens anymore.
it is just so frustrating! but sometimes its a very fun challenge, so if you have very good player in your team, playing aliens can be very fun, thats why i said 3 of 10 games im in the alien team. it can be fun, but you need pro gamer in your team, in marine team you just have to click left mousebutton and wait for exo and jetpacks, very simple, you can not lose and get frustrated so much as aliens.
Called this out months ago. Servers are only going to become more and more empty.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why are you still here
- Hivesight has been almost entirely removed. "Structure is under attack!" Oh yeah? What structure? Where? Why can't I see what's going on? I can't even see our hive locations! This is awful. No minimap, I'm tired of having to have the map open for 80% of the game just to see what's going on and who is where.
- Lighting. The default lighting of most maps is incredibly bright. Even deeply recessed corners are extremely bright. The emergency lighting is as bright, if not brighter than the lighting it replaced.
- Marine turtle-tech. Rather than go the interesting route and make the game about tech node control, it's simply about just kind of dancing around each other until you eventually try to destroy each other's bases. 98% of Marine tech is T1. Aliens, which have limited ability to move around the map, are forced to spread extremely thin.
- Alien upgrades are dull, uninspired, and so poorly balanced that there's no choice in what you should get. Carapace on everything. Adrenalin for Gorges, Fades, Celerity if anything else.
- Shotguns are a 'soft counter' to literally everything. Which makes them a hard counter.
- Armory camping / grenade launcher spamming has really no counter.
- Marine crackhopping was reviled in NS1, so the devs made sure to return it to NS2.
- Marines can now sprint, giving them skulk speeds to move around. And whack things away with their guns.
- D/M/S build order is back. Oh boy.
- Carapace is pathetic. None of the alien abilities scale. Carapace apparently exists to only put a single given alien ON PAR against a marine with A1 / W1 upgrades. Carapace at Hive 1 is Carapace at Hive 5, and that is why it's garbage. Regeneration is not even a choice, because Fades are so piss-weak without Carapace that they are no match at all for marines with even the most basic upgrades. The Khamm should be able to research T1 through T3 upgrades, or they should be automatically tied to your tech level. A Fade should NOT be dropped by just a couple of marines with shotguns.
- The entire Shade tech tree is hard-countered by an Observatory. Which is fine because the Aliens totally get hard counters to - wait - they get counters to nothing. As long as Observatories are this powerful, nobody will ever use Shade seriously. It's a gimmick and nothing more.
- Skulks lose almost all effectiveness by the midgame. Xenocide simply punishes the player using it and barely puts a scratch in A3 marines. You're deliberately putting yourself back in the 15 second queue for some damage that is quickly repaired, a queue that earns you NO resources.
- Celerity ultra-nerfed, has no effect if you're attacking which is when you'd want it.
- Leap and skulk movement ultra-nerfed. Leap cannot even reach jetpackers, and gives no damage bonus when you leap into enemies.
- Skulks feel as if they have a speed cap. When you wall jump or use leap, there's a huge slowdown like you hit a wall after you move a short distance.
- Focus is gone, which removed the ONLY counter Aliens ever had to armor upgrades. This was the closest aliens ever got to weapon upgrades. Now, a Hive 1 skulk can only ever do as much damage as he does at that moment, and marines only get stronger and harder to kill.
- Blink is slow, obvious, you take full damage while blinking and get constantly hammered by sentries.
- Vortex consumes way too much adrenalin, is so short you don't even have time to kill a single marine before the guy is back, has an incredibly short range and limited area effect, and in general is not worth it whatsoever.
- Stomp has extremely limited range and takes so long to execute I thought it was a bug at first.
- Marines blocking doorways with buildings is back. Because this was such a fun feature in NS1... defending your base with walls of robotics facilities and an army of MACs effectively making it Onos proof and giving you a HUGE buffer against attack.
- No counter to jetpacks. Lerks are easily swatted and have quite inferior damage that cannot compete. Skulks can no longer reach. Onos can no longer paralyze. Fade is your only safe bet, and Fade is fairly 'meh' at it due to the difficulty of perfectly timed blink/swipes.
- Aliens lost about half of their toys. Where is Web, exactly? The Onos sprint 'charge' does absolutely no damage. Marines lost... hand grenades. And got a tech 1 mobile siege gun that costs less than a shotgun to research and build.
- Huge amounts of incredibly dull downtime for aliens. No rapid movement system. Outrageously long spawn queue. Outrageously long egg time after that.
- No siege abilities for aliens. Lerks cannot even project spores anymore.
- Aliens are only really competitive when they outplay marines. Competitive, not dominant. Game design that requires one team to naturally be better and more coordinated than the other is completely bonkers. Alien gameplay relies on lots of tight-nit teamwork and communication, marines need almost zero communication and minimal teamwork, only simple group tactics.
Some of this design, like the Onos charge doing no damage, leap doing no damage, celerity being nerfed, carapace not scaling whatsoever... it's bad on paper, it's bad on practice, and it just reeks of massive developer favoritism to the marine side.
Our only real hope is probably in the hands of the modders. Maybe they can sort this mess out.
I don't think you understand sir.
This thread just seems to be an outlet for people who cant use aliens...
@PsympleJester Some people may use it for that, theirs no way to control it. I'd like to think the majority of players are here for the betterment of the game.
Does it bother you that I'm still here?
Besides, it's interesting to watch. Not to mention I paid for this game too.
Besides, it's interesting to watch. Not to mention I paid for this game too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It bothers me that if you spend half as much time practicing skulk as you did looking for more flaws you might not need to vent so much skulk rage! :D
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All good items.
I really need to make a list of all the items people would like cleaned up. NS2 has definitely come a long way, but we're not there yet.
agree
I think ill wait for ns2 3.0
I put nearly 160 hours into skulk and alien com play.
I think I have a firm grasp on how to play skulks, thanks.
As someone who thinks cele is best upgrade on any lifeform I couldnt disagree more.
But aliens do have the tendency to suck on occasion, the fact that they require more complex and coordinated teamwork than marines just clinches it.
But aliens do have the tendency to suck on occasion, the fact that they require more complex and coordinated teamwork than marines just clinches it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Elaborate. :) I don't know everything.
One team shouldn't have to naturally outplay and outskill the enemy team simply to be competitive, which is the case right now. If you take an alien with good aliens kills, and you put him against a marine with exactly comparable marine skills, the marine will still be more powerful. Give him a shotgun and it just goes sideways.
The shotgun should have a massive (-50% to -75%) damage penalty when attacking armor. This would make it useful against aliens with light armor that is breached quickly, but a Fade and Onos would require revisiting tactics and make shotgun users mulch. This would make the shotgun good against weak, quick enemies, like lerks and skulks, but useless against bigger enemies and structures.
But no, it makes more sense to have it do full damage against them, even though a bigger target = more pellets land = more damage done, which against a Carapace fade with T2 weapons means a single shotgun blast = 40% damage done.
You know, if they really wanted to emphasize alien skill, why didn't they give all aliens a natural 'backstab' bonus against marines, where all attacks to the back do double damage? Suddenly, a counter to armor upgrades! Suddenly, a more effective skulk-based counter to exosuits!
But here I go thinking again... it's this same kind of dangerous thinking that proposed marines have their weapon / armor upgrades locked to their tech level too...
I think I have a firm grasp on how to play skulks, thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you say so... :)
<!--quoteo(post=2007447:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:00 AM:name=TimmahIsASaint)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimmahIsASaint @ Nov 3 2012, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Elaborate. :) I don't know everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its quite simple, celerety makes you faster... Bunny hopping maintains speed.
Celerety may stop working but you still maintain the speed, in combat or not.
They removed bunny hopping and replaced it with a strange momentum building/maintaining system that is simple to learn
and pretty difficult to master... doesn't help that no one bothers to try.
You dont lose momentum after biting, only the increased acceleration so if you have no intention of standing still you will rarely notice the difference. For the longest time I thought they had removed the slow down on attack since I did not notice myself losing speed at all as a skulk, fade or lerk. Then I played gorge, and spitting was like hitting the parking brake.
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.
Says the guy who's throwing out equally bull###### claims like 'I can Fade against three shotgun marines and win on a routine basis'.
Celerity increases your base movement speed though right ?
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The list of reasons to play this game just keeps shorter and shorter and shorter.
And your max walljump speed as well I believe, Im not really sure how the physics work in this game (when they do, which isnt always) but all I can say is that I have never really noticed myself losing speed a skulk or fade from attacking/getting shot. It might be just me of course.
<!--quoteo(post=2007448:date=Nov 2 2012, 08:00 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2012, 08:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007448"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I started out sympathetic but after reading much of your whining and absurd nerf ideas for marines I've come to the conclusion that you just suck as aliens and are unwilling to put in the time to learn (which can be fun, I know I had fun learning and there werent all these noobs around during the mid beta). True the game is not balanced, but nerfing marines is hardly the way to balance it. As for marines not having glancing blows, you are right they just do no damage if they miss.
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes because free damaged even to people who miss is a dps nerf... Sence?
<!--quoteo(post=2007461:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:06 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 3 2012, 12:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Says the guy who's throwing out equally bull###### claims like 'I can Fade against three shotgun marines and win on a routine basis'.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its called hit and run sir, you leave... then you come back.
Eventually they are all dead.
<!--quoteo(post=2007472:date=Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM:name=Squirreli_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squirreli_ @ Nov 3 2012, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to feed the troll here, but: We played several beta patches with different iterations of skulk bite, some of them with just the center full damage cone and no side cones. This version of bite is the best so far. It still rewards skilled players for landing solid hits while allowing new players to hit something. In a way, it mirrors marine LMG play: less skilled players will spray and hit some of the bullets, while skilled players will land more hits. So it is also with the bite. My only gripes with the current bite model are that the 25 dmg cone might do well with a removal and the 50 dmg cone should be lowered to 45 dmg so that 2 glancing hits wouldn't kill an armourless marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm but 75, 45, 45 would still fully kill a A0 marine... interesting :)
Please be polite. The truth is though, nerfing Marines isn't going to make Aliens more fun.
GLANCING BLOWS! A huge DPS nerf in disguise!
You know, I could agree with glancing blows if there was the OPPOSITE, where a really good solid hit did extra 'critical' damage. But there isn't. Marines don't get glancing blows, only aliens get punished for not being able to land perfect bites on a little guy leaping around the place firing a gun that kills you in a quarter of a second.
Good idea guys. Brilliant. Can't see how this could cause some heartache for the alien team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to feed the troll here, but: We played several beta patches with different iterations of skulk bite, some of them with just the center full damage cone and no side cones. This version of bite is the best so far. It still rewards skilled players for landing solid hits while allowing new players to hit something. In a way, it mirrors marine LMG play: less skilled players will spray and hit some of the bullets, while skilled players will land more hits. So it is also with the bite. My only gripes with the current bite model are that the 25 dmg cone might do well with a removal and the 50 dmg cone should be lowered to 45 dmg so that 2 glancing hits wouldn't kill an armourless marine.
Nerf ideas? Like what? Like making the shotgun not a hard counter to EVERYTHING?
It takes exactly ONE game as a Marine to notice that the shotgun is pretty much the only weapon you ever need.
Aside from that, my only marine 'nerf ideas' revolve completely around forcing marines to be tied to tech nodes exactly like aliens. ARCs, jetpacks, and dual minigun exos become T3. Weapon / armor upgrades are trapped to your tech level.
Things like crackhopping, building blocking, and armory fortresses of infinite health / ammo are entirely different problems.
Oh and nerfing the Observatory, but I'd love to hear your justification as to why an entire Hive's worth of upgrades should all be countered by the same building.
No, it doesn't 'reward' them with anything. It 'rewards' them with the exact damage they're supposed to do. All this means is that your 'average' player will go from taking 5 solid bites to kill an A3 marine to requiring 12 or more. This puts the TTK against such a marine in the order of 10-20 SECONDS. It also lends so much survivability to jetpack marines that it literally boggles the mind - that is, if skulks could even reach a jetpack marine that doesn't want to get bit.
A reward is something extra you get. Right now you're rewarded with the same ###### damage a skulk is supposed to do. That isn't a reward. The glancing blow damage is so low that it is useless.
The sensible move would've been to increase damage or lower marine health to make up for it, so SOLID HITS are rewarded by FASTER kills, a mix of solid and glancing hits are AVERAGE kills, and glancing hits are SLOW kills. Instead, solid hits are AVERAGE, a mix of SLOW, and just glancing is DEAD.
A W3 marine can kill a skulk in literally half a second, a quick burst of five or six bullets. Why shouldn't a Skulk who gets a really good hit do the same to the marine? Wait, we had this once, it was called Focus, and people liked it. HMMM...