Tourney banhammer thread

13567

Comments

  • VolcanoVolcano Join Date: 2011-07-27 Member: 112496Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1999434:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:26 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Oct 29 2012, 02:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999434"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is in regard to the playtesters in question: If you have any questions as to the management of current PT's or questions regarding the disciplinary actions of the removed PT's you are free to message either Obraxis or myself, and we can give you the information as to why they were removed. UWE in no way manages the playtesting group.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Pm'd keen to know why I was booted
  • bLink`bLink` Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146506Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nothing has improved since the problems were stated.
  • VirsoulVirsoul Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos
    edited October 2012
    Shaker made a list of the games I mentioned earlier for when we did research in to why we were disqualified, if anyone is interested. It always seems like there's a bias against our team in the tournaments we participated.

    Hg (using it in the same circumstance + more eggS)
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337078557" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337078557</a>
    32:17

    All-In
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492</a>
    2:17:00

    156
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337131661" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337131661</a>
    11:40

    nc
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492</a>
    1:17:20

    OAG
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337081209" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337081209</a>
    1:42:48

    inv
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492</a>
    55:42

    duplex
    <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337081209" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337081209</a>
    59:21



    Why are these examples ok, but were were disqualified; Then after we adamantly defended ourselves was it instead turned in to a point docking for us and All-In, but there was no apology by UWE or acknowledgement that it wasn't an exploit, but just using the shift the way it is in the game. Should mention I see nothing wrong with any of these teams using shift eggs at all, but rather that it was only a problem when we did it.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Not looking to pin any blame regarding the PTs on UWE, in contrary i believe it actually hurts them greatly having a group that focuses more on going gorge every round over actually testing the game.... How long would the fade bug have gone unreported if not for Eh discovering it, testing it with me, and then reporting it?
  • GarfuGarfu Join Date: 2012-02-12 Member: 145170Members
    edited October 2012
    Hey man not to nitpick, cause we're on your side and all, but there is no shift or any eggs in that game you posted of us.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited October 2012
    We did use shift eggs once in that game. It was ~0:55:00 in Virsoul's link. We spawned about 5 eggs around our hive.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    Any team that used it to excess should of been aware it was a bug. The game makes no indication this is an intended feature; especially after 20 or so patches with the feature working correctly (more or less). To assume this change was intentional and omitted from the changelog while retaining the tooltip indicating the contrary would require such immense ignorance and incompetence I cannot fathom who might possess it.

    And consequently any team that used it to excess should of been docked a point for the round it was abused in. A third party to assess what constituted abuse during the game would of been needed as well.

    I haven't seen the rest of the games, but the last round of nxzl vs inv was blatantly abusive. There is no discussion to be had beyond that. But if any of those other examples did so in similar fashion.

    Dock the point.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    I haven't actually heard what the big issue over Shift eggs was. I guess I wasn't party to it going down. What was the glitch? It sounds like people are saying just using the Shift's egg generation ability was against the rules.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited October 2012
    Shift spawned eggs are currently free in 225.

    @Gorgeous
    Also I just reviewed the inv vs nc game, and there is no indication the shift was used to spawn eggs at that point in the game. Eggs spawned around the hive in 7 second intervals as intended.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1999350:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:20 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I sent that email explaining the situation above as it actually happened and his response was that I had no comprehension or understanding of why what I did was "unacceptable."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The truth is unaccaptable around here. Only being delusional is :P
  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999459:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:24 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Any team that used it to excess should of been aware it was a bug. The game makes no indication this is an intended feature; especially after 20 or so patches with the feature working correctly (more or less). To assume this change was intentional and omitted from the changelog while retaining the tooltip indicating the contrary would require such immense ignorance and incompetence I cannot fathom who might possess it.

    And consequently any team that used it to excess should of been docked a point for the round it was abused in. A third party to assess what constituted abuse during the game would of been needed as well.

    I haven't seen the rest of the games, but the last round of nxzl vs inv was blatantly abusive. There is no discussion to be had beyond that. But if any of those other examples did so in similar fashion.

    Dock the point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You're hilarious man. 11 eggs were spawned from the shift. The team had 30 tres. 7 of the eggs were used total in 3 wave spawns (3, 3, 1) - there were hive eggs spawned at the point so in reality a max of 6 would have been needed. How would we know it wasn't okay when euro teams had used it in previous games with the same egg counts at the same gametimes when having less tres? Tooltip changes get overlooked in all sorts of games, so its really not that incredible. And thinking the changelog would be accurate is just silly, a ton of stuff is left out of changelogs.

    If you'd like to watch this "abuse" its here <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337117460" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337117460</a> at time stamp 4:30:25 - the shift is spawned next to the harvester on the right.

    If you'd like to watch Hg do the very same thing before, here : <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337078557" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/blindns2/b/337078557</a> at time stamp 32:18 - shift and eggs pointed out by blind. This was hours before our games and we would have no reason to believe this was exploiting.

    Now, I agree, there is no discussion to be had beyond THAT.
  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999472:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:43 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shift spawned eggs are currently free in 225.

    @Gorgeous
    Also I just reviewed the inv vs nc game, and there is no indication the shift was used to spawn eggs at that point in the game. Eggs spawned around the hive in 7 second intervals as intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wrong again, go to <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/337117492</a> at 55:42 and watch 1 egg spawn, rev hops in and another egg spawns right in front of the hive followed by a couple more.
  • PersianImm0rtalPersianImm0rtal Join Date: 2010-12-02 Member: 75414Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    edited October 2012
    playtesting is governed by other volunteers, and is basically just a popularity contest in some cases. And you will be kicked if you do not attend them regulary.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999472:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:43 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 28 2012, 11:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shift spawned eggs are currently free in 225.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Is that really the teams' responsibility to know? I didn't hear any of that mentioned in the Stream. What I did hear, though, was Charlie and (Hugh? Or was it Wasabi?) talking about how anything the game allows you to do is fair, because otherwise you have confusing custom rules and it just gets stupid. This was specifically in the context of official tournaments and exploitative or cheesy play.

    I guess they're just advocating one thing while enforcing another? That's a bad look.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Shift spawn @0:55:25 stream time
    Eggs @0:55:45 (you can see 3 pop up quickly)

    In total we spawned about 5, I made the call to go shift and spawn them because nc was shooting down eggs, our second hive wasn't up yet, and we had spare res. Nobody on our team had any idea the eggs were free from shift. We still thought it was 1 pres each. That's why we only spawned a few eggs (~5).


    Still, though. I've seen much wilder undocumented changes than simply making shift eggs free. I'm not mad at the egg spawning by nxzl in our later game. I think it is reasonable, although unlikely, that the free egg change was just a bad undocumented change given some of the changes we've seen in the past few months.

    I also think the docking of 1 point for nxzl spawning so much eggs was a reasonable punishment, though I dislike how it got there and wouldn't have docked points if I were the admin. Nxzl was initially DQ'd and then punished for 1 point to effectively DQ them by forcing them to third, only to have that again changed to all-in also being docked 1 point to force a nxzl-allin tie break. Not to mention this was all done late Saturday night and all-in was given <12 hours notice to show up for the games the next day.
  • Captain VentrisCaptain Ventris Join Date: 2012-09-27 Member: 160871Members
    edited October 2012
    Tech: It was Charlie saying that to Wasabi.

    Now, Charlie isn't in charge of the tournaments, of course, but it does set some sort of UWE semi-precedent on such a matter.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999485:date=Oct 28 2012, 11:56 PM:name=Captain Ventris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Ventris @ Oct 28 2012, 11:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tech: It was Charlie saying that to Wasabi.

    Now, Charlie isn't in charge of the tournaments, of course, but it does set some sort of UWE semi-precedent on such a matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The thing is, he was also right. If it's in the build it should be fair balance, and it's not the teams' job to rigorously test the games for bugs so they know not to accidentally hit them. They shouldn't be punished for doing exactly what the game allowed them to do, and if it was such a bad issue, then there should have been a public statement in the Stream and to all teams in person via Steam or TS about a "No Shift-Egg Rule" in effect.

    You can't just go docking points, damaging rankings, and snatching away prizes from teams for things like this. It damages the legitimacy of your entire tournament organization, and is effectively you slapping around your players for something they had no reason to know was illegal.
  • Captain VentrisCaptain Ventris Join Date: 2012-09-27 Member: 160871Members
    I agree wholly, I was just specifying that, though it was Charlie's opinion, the Tournament organizers are not strictly beholden to his opinions, so that's not a be-all, end-all fact.

    Nonetheless, yes, rules based off arbitrary errors or bugs in the game should be avoided at all costs to reduce misunderstandings for both competitors and viewers.
  • VirsoulVirsoul Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos
    edited October 2012
    Again, I'm not saying any team that used eggs did anything in the wrong, but rather that we were targeted as abusing and exploitative when we clearly had the res to spawn eggs anyways. We didn't hatch some nefarious scheme to glitch the game, we used a strategy we always use. Would one egg have been exploitative? 2? 3? 4? When is it ok and when is it not? Again, watch the HG game and tell me what's different. We were never given any reason to think we could not use shift eggs.

    Back on a broader topic, while all of this is interesting, none of it was all that surprising given how past tournaments have been run.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited October 2012
    Seriously. Sometimes teams get the Oni/Fades stuck in a wall and lose them. Sometimes they don't pay as much res as they should to place eggs. When the 1st happens, the organizers say "oh well" and let the round stand. When the 2nd happens the team that didn't pay as much gets the round taken away.

    Neither of these situations are anybody's fault; they're just the product of a buggy game. Of the two, the <i>forgiven</i> lifeform glitch loss is an order of magnitude more influential than an egg cost exception. At the very least, under this sort of extreme lack of tolerance for bugs, a stuck Oni or Fade should result in a complete retry of the round, with no win being awarded. That's the kind of logic this decision comes with.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited October 2012
    Well I'm sitting here looking at the only evidence of that game that exists (that stream) and speaking directly to inv's commander in teamspeak. I mean if you want to admit to doing it, fine. But as far as being able to use that clip as evidence, that is baseless. The time the area around the shift is visible to spot whether an egg spawns can't be used to determine any use of egg spawning much less abuse.

    So the argument for why you believe spamming eggs to be a reasonable thing is that "the change logs aren't always correct" and "tooltips aren't always correct." I don't think I need to say any more than that. Your defense is non-existent. It is ignorance at best. Profound highly improbable ignorance that requires a vivid imagination to seem probable in any way.

    edit: I challenge anyone to seriously watch the entirety of the last round of nxzl vs inv and tell me nxzl could afford to drop the number of eggs they did. It was a cartoonish amount.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    It doesn't really matter if they were ignorant or not. The responsibility for identifying glitches is on the tournament organizers, not the teams. No team should get punished because they didn't spend enough time studying the game to find bugs.
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    Unfortunately if you run a tournament with that mindset with a buggy game like ns2, you can't disqualify any team for abusing a newly discovered bug because anyone can plead ignorance.

    I could use the speed hack glitch for biting to instantly kill a CC and plead ignorance to opening the menu and console in a particular configuration midgame and what can a tournament organizer say in that situation? Nothing.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Members
    edited October 2012
    That's the natural risk of running a tournament for a game rapidly going through beta builds. Maybe don't run a tournament for a game that has "speed hack" (not the correct use of that word) bugs that can go off if you do the wrong thing.

    That, or tell the contestants and public beforehand that they can't use that speed glitch without being DQd or otherwise punished. Make sure it's very well known that will not be tolerated, in recording or in text.
  • VirsoulVirsoul Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos
    <!--quoteo(post=1999499:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:13 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I'm sitting here looking at the only evidence of that game that exists (that stream) and speaking directly to inv's commander in teamspeak. I mean if you want to admit to doing it, fine. But as far as being able to use that clip as evidence, that is baseless. The time the area around the shift is visible to spot whether an egg spawns can't be used to determine any use of egg spawning much less abuse.

    So the argument for why you believe spamming eggs to be a reasonable thing is that "the change logs aren't always correct" and "tooltips aren't always correct." I don't think I need to say any more than that. Your defense is non-existent. It is ignorance at best. Profound highly improbable ignorance that requires a vivid imagination to seem probable in any way.

    edit: I challenge anyone to seriously watch the entirety of the last round of nxzl vs inv and tell me nxzl could afford to drop the number of eggs they did. It was a cartoonish amount.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Did you even watch the other games I posted? What is abuse, how many eggs, give me a number? They used shift eggs when they were getting locked at the hive, so did we. They used less in that game, but if they used a few more would it have been an exploit? Did I say Inversion did anything wrong, no. You're missing the entire ###### point of the post in that we were singled out arbitrarily. Watch the HG game, it was the exact same circumstance and it was not considered an exploit or punished at all.
  • pRiNcEkAhUnApRiNcEkAhUnA Join Date: 2012-03-06 Member: 148264Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999382:date=Oct 28 2012, 07:52 PM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Oct 28 2012, 07:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also really disappointed that Eh is no longer a PT, we needed more like him and he's always come across to me as a calm reasonable person. Felt the same way about Dragon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Eh was a great PT, and contributed greatly to the production of NS2, and I had a pleasure of working with Eh during my time as a PT. Great PT's don't seem to last very long on the PT team though.
  • VirsoulVirsoul Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1999506:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:19 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could use the speed hack glitch for biting to instantly kill a CC and plead ignorance to opening the menu and console in a particular configuration midgame and what can a tournament organizer say in that situation? Nothing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    That's the same as pressing "A" on a shift. Exactly the same.
  • RedDragonRedDragon Join Date: 2003-01-13 Member: 12240Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1999499:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999499"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I'm sitting here looking at the only evidence of that game that exists (that stream) and speaking directly to inv's commander in teamspeak. I mean if you want to admit to doing it, fine. But as far as being able to use that clip as evidence, that is baseless. The time the area around the shift is visible to spot whether an egg spawns can't be used to determine any use of egg spawning much less abuse.

    So the argument for why you believe spamming eggs to be a reasonable thing is that "the change logs aren't always correct" and "tooltips aren't always correct." I don't think I need to say any more than that. Your defense is non-existent. It is ignorance at best. Profound highly improbable ignorance that requires a vivid imagination to seem probable in any way.

    edit: I challenge anyone to seriously watch the entirety of the last round of nxzl vs inv and tell me nxzl could afford to drop the number of eggs they did. It was a cartoonish amount.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    So your argument is that ignorance is no excuse, and also highly improbable. Implying that you yourself were not also ignorant of this bug.

    So. If that's true. When were you going to let the rest of the community know that the bug existed?

    Ignorance is a legitimate excuse right up until it becomes unreasonable for someone to be ignorant. Either it works here, or you're saying that you, and others, were not ignorant of this bug, and therefore the NA teams should not have been either.

    Go troll somewhere else please.
  • CrusherCrusher Join Date: 2012-08-21 Member: 156083Members
    I'm not much of a great NS2 player, although I love the game. (only purchased it about 2 months ago). I was a very active Americas Army player (AA 2, not the 3.0 version) and did manage some tournaments, did broadcast some of them, and also played actively in ESL and TWL. (Just want to share my opinion, as I watched intensely the matches this weekend.)

    First of all, I don't think there should EVER be a rule, that allows the admins to change the rules of the tournament. (That's like a joke. Seriously, you play a tournament based on specific rules, why should they ever be changed???) The rules have to be fixed. End of story. People have to be able to know what is allowed etc. Otherwise it will just cause confusion and problems.

    As to what Cold has said: "We were also told inv.Gorgeous was listed as 'banned', but this withered in the face of the fact that .Inv more or less said if he was banned prior to the final, they weren't going to play. So the banning/unbanning of players, overturning of decisions, seems largely opinion based or simply 'We like or don't like said person'."
    That is totally unacceptable. That mocks this whole tournament and I am very disappointed. Seems like amateur hour big time.

    Also I don't think players should just "get banned" without talking to them first etc... . No explanation.. . It's like the tournament is being administrated by little kids (no offense guys).

    When me and my clan (in Americas Army) used to play competitive matches, we always talked friendly with other clans (always helped to boost a friendly atmosphere). The matches were always recorded, so if any harsh language would have been used there was always evidence (just like these matches were being broadcasted). So I don't see the reason for banning stuff like "rofl hitreg" during the game. He never insulted anyone, just personal frustration perhaps?

    If Colt and other players are seriously banned for these (I would call them petty) things, than I am very disappointed in a very amateur administrated tournament:(
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited October 2012
    Well it's the colloquialism most people understand; I can't really use the proper term because I don't rightly know myself what causes it. But that is beside the point as you could substitute it with the 2nd hive onos stomp bug or anything.

    Yes, it's a risk of running tournaments in a beta. But why the hell not just use reasonable judgement and assess the situation to determine if something is being abused excessively regardless of whether they're aware it is abuse or not? This is something virtually every tournament has needed. 2-3 people capable of making that determination when needed.

    edit: Prior to the tournament even beginning I'm fairly positive the egg spawning bug had been fixed in 226, so I don't see what you want from me. Some other PT or dev obviously discovered the issue as well. So yeah, I was aware it was a bug in 225.

    Explain to me how assuming egg spawning being free was intended was probable in any way. You can't. You won't even try.

    Go troll somewhere else.
This discussion has been closed.