Forgot to add my opinion to the "nexzil using free eggs" :)
At first when I heard that they used the "exploit" (as it was mentioned on the stream), I thought yeah that's obviously unfair. But as I'm reading through forum, etc. I figured out that more teams (if not all of them) did it. So why the hell should they be penalized for anything? And even if no other team would use this "bug", it was not stated anywhere in the rules that it cannot be used (or that it could/would be penalized). So I don't see a valid reason why that should be used against them. Even if they were the only ones who knew about it, they could say they didn't notice the eggs were free. It was just a bug in the game. Hope this "egg incident" doesn't crap nexzil's reputation as they're a good team.
Eh, how many eggs is exploiting? You haven't answered my question. Eggs were used by nearly every team. You can't say we exploited just because you don't like our team.
<!--quoteo(post=1999517:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:30 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me how assuming egg spawning being free was intended was probable in any way. You can't. You won't even try.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's obvious to any reasonable player that shift egg spawning being free is a bug.
But it isn't obvious (to me) what you are supposed to do about it to stay within the rules. If it is bugged in this build should you: a) not use it at all, and lose to egglock? b) only use it when you have enough res to pay for the eggs at the tooltip price? c) only use it when you have enough res to pay for the eggs at the tooltip price, and keep track in your head of how much res you have 'spent' on eggs, and try not to spend that res on anything else?
In the case of nexzil they used it in 4-5 seperate incidents through out the match and accumulated a minimum of 35 tres of eggs visible from the stream.
Twice in flight, twice in datacore. And they did this off an avg of two RT's while still dropping a second hive for the second time as well as cysting to and from atrium and sub. That is clearly abuse. If you believe it is not, I'm curious what your justification is for it.
With regards to the options listed. I still think an impartial 3rd party (ideally the administrator of that particular match) has the insight and capability to assess whether something is being abused to an unfair degree.
edit: I don't see why you're so quick to judge my assessment of your team's abuse. Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm wrong. So please refrain from trolling, virsoul.
d) use it like you normally would, and not concern yourself with tracking imaginary resources.
The build the developers released, the build the tournament was based on, had 0 res eggs. If Onos or Lerk had been 5 res cheaper, there wouldn't have been any outcry after the fact about using them. Shift eggs were 1 res cheaper, but suddenly that's unforgivable. It made Shifts powerful, yes, but that change was as much a part of the build as a purposeful Shotgun nerf or accidental Skulk speed reduction. Both teams had the opportunity to benefit from this.
As I've said before, it is not the players' job to create imaginary rules they must follow to avoid potentially causing an imbalance. It's the tournament organizer's job to set the rules down beforehand, and if they don't specifically outlaw something that's a natural part of the gameplay, they need to deal with any issues that arise from it themselves.
If it was really decided to be an important issue that the organizers felt was unfair, the round should have been annulled and re-done with the clarification about Shift eggs. It would have been inconvenient for the organizers, but that's what happens when you miss stuff like this. Nexzil did nothing wrong here, as they have no responsibility to arbitrarily weaken or restrict themselves further than what the rules declare and what the build permits.
Be mad at 0 res eggs if you want, but don't be bad at the people who used them.
Redoing the round would of been acceptable as well.
edit: You'd be surprised how many teams got upset at teams using 2nd hive stomp onos instead of being mad at 2nd hive stomp onos being in the previous builds. I'm sure nxzl can agree. So atleast be consistent in that point of view if you choose to have it.
<!--quoteo(post=1999528:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Redoing the round would of been acceptable as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the only people who come out in the red (relative to how things are now, I mean) of a round annulment would be the organizers who would have to schedule it and UWE who would have to show off the glitch.
Considering these are the closest thing we have to responsible parties (the people who did not amend the rules in time to warn the teams, and the people who made the build, who at "worst" will have to let people know that they did in fact make a build that wasn't perfect), I don't see anything wrong with this.
<!--quoteo(post=1999528:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: You'd be surprised how many teams got upset at teams using 2nd hive stomp onos instead of being mad at 2nd hive stomp onos being in the previous builds. I'm sure nxzl can agree. So atleast be consistent in that point of view if you choose to have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought it was declared beforehand that 2nd hive stomp was not allowed? Last tournament I was in they made it very clear that it was not permitted. That's the only issue I have with 2nd hive stomp use.
<!--quoteo(post=1999534:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:07 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 01:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999534"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well I assume that was the partial intent behind their "catch all" rule prohibiting abuse of any potential bugs in 224/225.
Things like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't mind said use of their catch-all if they'd announced in Stream and/or in game that egg use was not allowed/to be minimized/only X per time unit/etc. Somewhere on visual, audio, or text record with nexzil (ideally all teams, but we care about them right now) before the match showing that the teams had been informed that this was not okay.
If that was the case, it'd be an open and shut case of exploiting against tournament rules. I haven't heard anyone even claim this was the case though, much less show it, so it it isn't.
Eh, this is the chat from the moment we killed the Atrium command chair after we used shift once. <a href="http://s11.postimage.org/xitqc1n4j/example.jpg" target="_blank">http://s11.postimage.org/xitqc1n4j/example.jpg</a> You called us cheaters and exploiters in that moment when we only used a shift one time. Like everyone is saying, if it was a known bug it should have been announced. If we were told after that round, or if an admin would have said mid game even, not to use it anymore we would gladly have agreed. We were given no indication that what we were doing was in fact considered wrong, because there was no reason to assume it. If it was such a problem, why did they let the game finish?
Again, how many eggs is exploiting? I'm still waiting for that answer.
Interrupting a round in mid-game to tell a team not to drop eggs is incredibly unprofessional, more so than just invalidating the round afterwards and re-doing it. It looks bad to the public, and it looks bad to the teams. However, it's not as bad as just awarding the round to the opposing team with no warning. Not in any sense.
4 maxed out shifts worth of eggs with 80 tres of hives off an avg of 2 RT's would qualify as exploitive.
I answered your question on page 5.
edit: They (the admins) let the game finish because they're human beings and not capable of making perfect judgements to either call a redo with the clarification you can't drop that many eggs while still using the res that should of been lost to redrop a hive, recap rt's, cyst across the map, and drop multiple shifts and eggs directly next to the opposing team's base on the opposite end of the map or to simply award the round to the other team who clearly won.
Then why did you call us exploiters and cheaters after using it once?
<!--quoteo(post=1999542:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:15 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: They (the admins) let the game finish because they're human beings and not capable of making perfect judgements to either call a redo with the clarification you can't drop that many eggs while still using the res that should of been lost to redrop a hive, recap rt's, cyst across the map, and drop multiple shifts and eggs directly next to the opposing team's base on the opposite end of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why you can't really make a judgement for the reasons that shader and Techercizer mentioned.
Virsoul, Eh?, there are legitimate issues about clarifying rules and the legitimacy of disciplinary actions taken in an official tournament in this thread. I realize both of you want this thing resolved, but this back-and-forth about whether nexzil are "cheaters" is only detracting from meaningful discussion that can happen in this thread.
Can we keep this thread about the tournament banhammerings, and relegate whether a play was "fair" or not to PMs or a different thread? While it matters whether or not these actions were contravening established tournament guidelines, whether or not Nexzil gained an upper hand over their opponents and whether or not the tactics they used were against the spirit of the game isn't really relevant.
Absolutely, Mouse. My whole point for bringing up our situation and giving examples are to try and show an overreaction to what could be solved more easily/diplomatically and an inconsistency in rules and regulations. It's been a problem for a while now and I think it needs to be taken as just a piece of a much larger issue.
I don't think there is much more to be said on the random bannings beyond them being unnecessary, inconsistent, and counterproductive.
I'm more interested in who will admit fault where it was due and what steps will be taken to insure this stops happening. And I think everyone knows who I'm talking about.
I keep deleting the posts I'm trying to write here and I've been rewriting this post over and over again for over half an hour... There are so many continuing problems with these UWE tournaments that I'm thinking they just go with the territory, so I find it hard to believe any more critique is going to help at all. I haven't seen any other Exertus members posting in this thread or on this subject either, and frankly, that is mostly just disillusionment and self-censorship. There is a credible threat of getting problems for saying uncomfortable truths regarding these tournaments and little to gain in doing so.
So, even though I understand the need for UWE to get NS2 promoted via these tournaments and even though they've done a good job in many aspects of the tournaments, I hope that after the launch hassle is done with, we can have community-organized tournaments with proper rules, information flow and administration. Even though we all want to help UWE make NS2 succeed big time, I think it is fair to say the current arrangement has enough flaws to merit trying something different.
<!--quoteo(post=1999369:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM:name=Captain Ventris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Ventris @ Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would something that tame be ban-worthy, when nothing (to my knowledge) was put against Archaea for winning a tournament (Guru?) through a tactic they considered cheap (Skulk Rush), Fana then stating in chat that it was cheap and needed to change, and Scrajm in his interview saying several related things?
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I did it in Blinds tournament, which had different rules. I did not break any rules by saying those things. It was not guru, which was hosted by UWE. Blind was more liberal towards open hearted speeches, where as UWE is not.
And regarind rules, all team captains recieved a rules e-mail the night between friday and saturday euro time. There it says:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->11i. No player may express grievances of any kind in text chat regarding tournament rules game balance or other matters. Such expression will result in no regard being paid by the organiser to those grievances and my in extreme cases result in the application of rule 14a
14a. Any violation of or failure to comply with any tournament rule or directive of organiser or admin at any time by any participant team or player therein may in the most extreme cases result in the disqualification and dismissal of that participant team or particular constituent players from this tournament and the banning of that team or particular constituent players from any future event to which Unknown Worlds is party.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main problem here, imo, is that these rules are too harshly enforced. Ryan (and the others in similiar positions) should have been warned, and then if they did it again, banned. And that ryan was removed from PT is also a very odd and way too harsch decision. PT leaders really should think this over, swallow their pride and revert it. Its not a wild thought that this might not only lead to PTers not speaking their minds anymore (which seems somewhat important beeing a PT), it also further diminishes the quaility of playtester and of those willing to apply.
honestly, quoting rules is absolutely worthless, because of this clause:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c. Admins and the organiser may in exceptional circumstances make changes to all rules set forth below at any time without warning or explanation if such a change is necessary for the good- order and timely progress of the tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hate to say it but RedDragon's fears he expressed when these rules were made have been realized. :/ That one clause completely invalidates anything else said in the so called "rules".
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999597:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:26 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 29 2012, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->honestly, quoting rules is absolutely worthless, because of this clause:
I really hate to say it but RedDragon's fears he expressed when these rules were made have been realized. :/ That one clause completely invalidates anything else said in the so called "rules".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also trusted Hugh when he said that these catch all rules would be only used in absolute worst case scenarios. I think writing an ASCII penis to the game chat was used as an example. I don't think "rofl, hitreg" is comparable to this kind of behaviour in any way and makes me feel that all the teams and players participating in the tournament have been misled and betrayed. We all should've listened to you RedDragon.
<!--quoteo(post=1999369:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM:name=Captain Ventris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Ventris @ Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would something that tame be ban-worthy, when nothing (to my knowledge) was put against Archaea for winning a tournament (Guru?) through a tactic they considered cheap (Skulk Rush), Fana then stating in chat that it was cheap and needed to change, and Scrajm in his interview saying several related things?
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That tournament was Blind's Beta Cup which had totally different rules and organizer.
<!--quoteo(post=1999591:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM:name=Scrajm)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scrajm @ Oct 29 2012, 01:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey, I did it in Blinds tournament, which had different rules. I did not break any rules by saying those things. It was not guru, which was hosted by UWE. Blind was more liberal towards open hearted speeches, where as UWE is not.
And regarind rules, all team captains received a rules e-mail the night between friday and saturday euro time. There it says:
The main problem here, imo, is that these rules are too harshly enforced. Ryan (and the others in similiar positions) should have been warned, and then if they did it again, banned. And that ryan was removed from PT is also a very odd and way too harsch decision. PT leaders really should think this over, swallow their pride and revert it. Its not a wild thought that this might not only lead to PTers not speaking their minds anymore (which seems somewhat important beeing a PT), it also further diminishes the quaility of playtester and of those willing to apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was a PT I would be embarrassed at the # of bugs that slip through. Really who ever the PT leaders are there absolutely terrible. UWE needs to get some skilled players in there. Also there are so many map bugs is crazy. As of thos rules and bannings. If UWE is going to be running anything after this people need to be let go. Like hugh that guys just bad for business. When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.
<!--quoteo(post=1999610:date=Oct 29 2012, 08:44 PM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Oct 29 2012, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I was a PT I would be embarrassed at the # of bugs that slip through. Really who ever the PT leaders are there absolutely terrible. UWE needs to get some skilled players in there. Also there are so many map bugs is crazy. As of thos rules and bannings. If UWE is going to be running anything after this people need to be let go. Like hugh that guys just bad for business. When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More bugs than you could know are reported, and UWE work hard to fix them. Only so much can be done in so little time by so few people(UWE employees).
As somebody who might like to join the competitive scene in the future, this thread is hardly an endorsement for taking part in UWE tournaments. The organizers are human, so I'll reserve judgement until the game is released and the tourney scene and the organizers find it's stride. People make mistakes, and this is one of them. But if this type of thing continues to happen in the future, you're going to get a very divided competitive community.
The fact that such small off-hand remarks resulted in a ban is just silly. Way too harsh. I understand that UWE fears that such comments might have a detrimental effect to the growth of the competitive scene. However, the banning of players for such minor offenses is only going to alienate your CURRENT competitive scene, the same community that's participated in many tournaments already, which has helped promote the game.
Was there any reaction of UWE to this topic via PMs or mails? Because i cant find any here, since they are saying always in Q&A that they read the forums and wanna help players. And i understand that they are really exited and worried about release day but cmon at least unban and apologize to the players who said the true and were punished.
I'm going to weigh in on things regarding the PTs & Eh's removal, as it seem there is a lot of misinformation and spitefulness going on. Normally I would not respond but this drama needs to stop.
A number of ex-PTs in this thread were removed due to their behavior. Each one broke the PT Guidelines, which I implemented after Jiriki left as people did not know what was expected of them in terms of work and behavior. They're nothing draconian, just simple rules like "Be nice to others" and "You're representing UWE and the PT Group, your actions in public reflect us all". Clearly these simple rules are easy to follow, and yet a number of former PTs broke these on multiple occasions. Others were removed from lack of attendance; not showing up for weeks at a time without a reason given. We need a relatively cohesive team in order to catch and report bugs in a timely manner, or your next patch might not even be playable due to lack of available playtesters.
<!--quoteo(post=1999363:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly though, I'm even more shocked by eh getting kicked from PT because he made a few comments in the twitch stream chat -- comments which were entirely unrelated to anything he has done as PT. Not only does it make no sense, but it means the PT team loses its last remaining participant with experience with top tier competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999382:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:52 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Oct 29 2012, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also really disappointed that Eh is no longer a PT, we needed more like him and he's always come across to me as a calm reasonable person. Felt the same way about Dragon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh's work as a PT has been fantastic and I have told him this personally. He has been especially helpful to UWE and the PT Group. However, Eh's behavior recently in public has caused his removal. He has been warned numerous times about breaking the PT Guidelines. I've given him many chances. I made it clear just the other week in a private email that he was on his final warning and any more public misbehaviour or breaking of the PT Guidelines would result in him being removed without warning. Just because you do good work, does not allow you to insult people in public or misbehave. We're trying to promote NS2 as having a great community who helps each other out in a friendly environment.
<!--quoteo(post=1999511:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:24 AM:name=pRiNcEkAhUnA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pRiNcEkAhUnA @ Oct 29 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh was a great PT, and contributed greatly to the production of NS2, and I had a pleasure of working with Eh during my time as a PT. Great PT's don't seem to last very long on the PT team though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your definition of "Great PT" is clearly different than mine. If people cannot play well together, and fight and insult or break basic rules, I don't see that as "Great PT" material.
<!--quoteo(post=1999480:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:53 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Oct 29 2012, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->playtesting is governed by other volunteers, and is basically just a popularity contest in some cases. And you will be kicked if you do not attend them regulary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a popularity contest. Applicants to the PT group have been taken from all walks of life. Veterans of NS1 and even completely new people to NS2 who have a great application have been taken in, as we need new insight from fresh eyes into a game we're all far too intimate with. However if you don't show up to playtests without a reason for weeks and weeks at a time, you're already not contributing anyway. Removal is a last resort.
<!--quoteo(post=1999610:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:44 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Oct 29 2012, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I was a PT I would be embarrassed at the # of bugs that slip through. Really who ever the PT leaders are there absolutely terrible. UWE needs to get some skilled players in there. Also there are so many map bugs is crazy. As of thos rules and bannings. If UWE is going to be running anything after this people need to be let go. Like hugh that guys just bad for business. When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi. I'm the Lead Playtester. You seem to not know how things are run. We have a small group of dedicated players like yourself who volunteer our free time to help find bugs, and report them. I'm sorry your favorite bug has not been fixed yet, but more than likely it's been reported already and is in a queue waiting to be fixed. You see, there are only a few programmers at UWE, as they're a team of 9 in the office. They try to work on a priority list while also fixing bugs and broken builds of the game, many broken builds which you never get to see because of the hundreds of hours the Playtesters put into testing each and every week in the internal build of the game that is made. The playtesters in the last week have done more testing of NS2 than ever, as well as filming duties for various trailers and other testing. All this around their own lives, and also clan duties. Yes, I said Clan. We have members from EoD, 156, 420, Nexzil and probably more I can't quite recall. I would call them all very much skilled. I've noticed you've not applied to be a playtester yourself. If you count yourself as a 'skilled player' there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
We also have a competitive Map Testing Team made up of members from clans like All-In & Inversion, who test old and new maps for exploits and play scrims every Tuesday and Thursday on them. They're doing an awesome job. But again, they're doing it from their own free time around their own clan needs. Things are fixed and things are missed. The PT & Map tester groups are all volunteers, there is only so much we can do in our free time.
For the record, I could not be prouder of the PT and Map testing teams. People have been putting in crazy hours to help get NS2 ready for public release and I think they deserve a round of applause for their efforts and not be berated.
This is a link to the old CAL CS:S rule set. I suspect that its a bit outdated in some respects, but my point in the Captain's meeting was that if we want the competitive community (and these tournaments) to be taken seriously, we need a much more rigorous and thorough examination of the rules we use during these events.
In the above example, there are not only rules that explicitely state how Violations will be handled, there are also rules that create a very clear means by which players can dispute those rulings.
"Catch-alls," as Hugh has called them, are for the most part completely absent.
Hugh's statement was that there would never be an offical UWE event that did not include the power for UWE to a) modify rules at any point without warning or b) ban players/teams without exception.
What he failed to realize is that all tournament organizers have both of these powers without them ever being stated in the rules. Openly stating these things in your rules document is wildly unprofessional. Resorting to their use is nothing short of a complete failure on the part of both admins and organizers.
As to the banter between Ryan and others. Can we not, for just a minute, put aside personal grudges to address this larger issue? I'm as guilty as anyone else to slinging mud. But lets just agree to deal with it later. I would rather we come to some resolution on this than let rivalries weaken our position and prevent us from demanding a change in how these event's are managed and officiated.
As to how UWE (Hugh) will handle this reaction? As far as I know, Hugh told us during that Captain's meeting that if we don't like these rules, we don't have to play in UWE sponsored events.
I for one would like UWE to improve and to put on legitimate and entertaining events. But guess what folks? He's right. We don't have to play at their events. And I'd be willing to bet that if they can't shape up after this, we won't be.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999350:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:20 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 03:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The context of my "rofl hitreg" was as follows:
Round 1 of Arc vs Duplex was not streamed, it ended after maybe 20 minutes. Multiple non-captain players did friendly banter in chat during the match, GISP the admin present didn't have a problem with it. And the round concluded.
Round 2 began similarly without being streamed and the admin GISP present. Midway through the match, Hugh and Wasabi joined to stream. This fact was unknown to myself as I was playing the game at the time. After getting upset at the hit registration issues present in the game I said "rofl hitreg" after dying in frustration.
The round ended. And I was informed by scrajm from the captain's chat that I had been banned from the tournament and should I want to appeal the ban I should send a convincing email to Hugh as to why I should be unbanned.
I sent that email explaining the situation above as it actually happened and his response was that I had no comprehension or understanding of why what I did was "unacceptable."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I saw it all as "friendly banter" and have been unaware of any bans, untill i stumpled upon this topic. It may be my years as a community mod or admin, at alot of differnt places. That im not so strict on enforcing all rules to the letter, for the sake "fun" and flow of the event. (And only at the "999ping insident" Where 4 players from team and 1 from other had issues, did i interveen and called rematch). As a op post listed a few pages back, neerly all the teams at some point or another made use of the "free eggs exploit". And honestly, this might be becouse of my ignorance, i thoght it was a feature(so did Blind) to counter egg-locking. And i should have been aware of it being a "big nono", prio to the turnament start. So that one is on me, sorry about that. In any case, i been told to lay it arest. But i still wanted to clarify why i did not take any actions myself.
Solution: all the players at the final change their names to, rofl hitreg, rofl collisions, rofl bitebox... <img src="http://members.home.nl/m.borgman/ns-forum/smileys/trollface.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Comments
At first when I heard that they used the "exploit" (as it was mentioned on the stream), I thought yeah that's obviously unfair. But as I'm reading through forum, etc. I figured out that more teams (if not all of them) did it. So why the hell should they be penalized for anything?
And even if no other team would use this "bug", it was not stated anywhere in the rules that it cannot be used (or that it could/would be penalized). So I don't see a valid reason why that should be used against them. Even if they were the only ones who knew about it, they could say they didn't notice the eggs were free. It was just a bug in the game. Hope this "egg incident" doesn't crap nexzil's reputation as they're a good team.
<!--quoteo(post=1999517:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:30 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Go troll somewhere else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sound advice you should take.
It's obvious to any reasonable player that shift egg spawning being free is a bug.
But it isn't obvious (to me) what you are supposed to do about it to stay within the rules. If it is bugged in this build should you:
a) not use it at all, and lose to egglock?
b) only use it when you have enough res to pay for the eggs at the tooltip price?
c) only use it when you have enough res to pay for the eggs at the tooltip price, and keep track in your head of how much res you have 'spent' on eggs, and try not to spend that res on anything else?
Twice in flight, twice in datacore. And they did this off an avg of two RT's while still dropping a second hive for the second time as well as cysting to and from atrium and sub. That is clearly abuse. If you believe it is not, I'm curious what your justification is for it.
With regards to the options listed. I still think an impartial 3rd party (ideally the administrator of that particular match) has the insight and capability to assess whether something is being abused to an unfair degree.
edit: I don't see why you're so quick to judge my assessment of your team's abuse. Just because you don't like me doesn't mean I'm wrong. So please refrain from trolling, virsoul.
The build the developers released, the build the tournament was based on, had 0 res eggs. If Onos or Lerk had been 5 res cheaper, there wouldn't have been any outcry after the fact about using them. Shift eggs were 1 res cheaper, but suddenly that's unforgivable. It made Shifts powerful, yes, but that change was as much a part of the build as a purposeful Shotgun nerf or accidental Skulk speed reduction. Both teams had the opportunity to benefit from this.
As I've said before, it is not the players' job to create imaginary rules they must follow to avoid potentially causing an imbalance. It's the tournament organizer's job to set the rules down beforehand, and if they don't specifically outlaw something that's a natural part of the gameplay, they need to deal with any issues that arise from it themselves.
If it was really decided to be an important issue that the organizers felt was unfair, the round should have been annulled and re-done with the clarification about Shift eggs. It would have been inconvenient for the organizers, but that's what happens when you miss stuff like this. Nexzil did nothing wrong here, as they have no responsibility to arbitrarily weaken or restrict themselves further than what the rules declare and what the build permits.
Be mad at 0 res eggs if you want, but don't be bad at the people who used them.
edit: You'd be surprised how many teams got upset at teams using 2nd hive stomp onos instead of being mad at 2nd hive stomp onos being in the previous builds. I'm sure nxzl can agree. So atleast be consistent in that point of view if you choose to have it.
I think the only people who come out in the red (relative to how things are now, I mean) of a round annulment would be the organizers who would have to schedule it and UWE who would have to show off the glitch.
Considering these are the closest thing we have to responsible parties (the people who did not amend the rules in time to warn the teams, and the people who made the build, who at "worst" will have to let people know that they did in fact make a build that wasn't perfect), I don't see anything wrong with this.
<!--quoteo(post=1999528:date=Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 12:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: You'd be surprised how many teams got upset at teams using 2nd hive stomp onos instead of being mad at 2nd hive stomp onos being in the previous builds. I'm sure nxzl can agree. So atleast be consistent in that point of view if you choose to have it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was declared beforehand that 2nd hive stomp was not allowed? Last tournament I was in they made it very clear that it was not permitted. That's the only issue I have with 2nd hive stomp use.
Things like this.
Things like this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't mind said use of their catch-all if they'd announced in Stream and/or in game that egg use was not allowed/to be minimized/only X per time unit/etc. Somewhere on visual, audio, or text record with nexzil (ideally all teams, but we care about them right now) before the match showing that the teams had been informed that this was not okay.
If that was the case, it'd be an open and shut case of exploiting against tournament rules. I haven't heard anyone even claim this was the case though, much less show it, so it it isn't.
Again, how many eggs is exploiting? I'm still waiting for that answer.
I answered your question on page 5.
edit: They (the admins) let the game finish because they're human beings and not capable of making perfect judgements to either call a redo with the clarification you can't drop that many eggs while still using the res that should of been lost to redrop a hive, recap rt's, cyst across the map, and drop multiple shifts and eggs directly next to the opposing team's base on the opposite end of the map or to simply award the round to the other team who clearly won.
<!--quoteo(post=1999542:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:15 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->edit: They (the admins) let the game finish because they're human beings and not capable of making perfect judgements to either call a redo with the clarification you can't drop that many eggs while still using the res that should of been lost to redrop a hive, recap rt's, cyst across the map, and drop multiple shifts and eggs directly next to the opposing team's base on the opposite end of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why you can't really make a judgement for the reasons that shader and Techercizer mentioned.
Your back and forth is gradually having less & less to do with the thread topic.
Can we keep this thread about the tournament banhammerings, and relegate whether a play was "fair" or not to PMs or a different thread? While it matters whether or not these actions were contravening established tournament guidelines, whether or not Nexzil gained an upper hand over their opponents and whether or not the tactics they used were against the spirit of the game isn't really relevant.
I'm more interested in who will admit fault where it was due and what steps will be taken to insure this stops happening. And I think everyone knows who I'm talking about.
So, even though I understand the need for UWE to get NS2 promoted via these tournaments and even though they've done a good job in many aspects of the tournaments, I hope that after the launch hassle is done with, we can have community-organized tournaments with proper rules, information flow and administration. Even though we all want to help UWE make NS2 succeed big time, I think it is fair to say the current arrangement has enough flaws to merit trying something different.
Ps. "rofl hitreg"
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, I did it in Blinds tournament, which had different rules. I did not break any rules by saying those things. It was not guru, which was hosted by UWE. Blind was more liberal towards open hearted speeches, where as UWE is not.
And regarind rules, all team captains recieved a rules e-mail the night between friday and saturday euro time. There it says:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->11i. No player may express grievances of any kind in text chat regarding tournament rules game balance or other matters. Such expression will result in no regard being paid by the organiser to those grievances and my in extreme cases result in the application of rule 14a
14a. Any violation of or failure to comply with any tournament rule or directive of organiser or admin at any time by any participant team or player therein may in the most extreme cases result in the disqualification and dismissal of that participant team or particular constituent players from this tournament and the banning of that team or particular constituent players from any future event to which Unknown Worlds is party.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The main problem here, imo, is that these rules are too harshly enforced. Ryan (and the others in similiar positions) should have been warned, and then if they did it again, banned. And that ryan was removed from PT is also a very odd and way too harsch decision. PT leaders really should think this over, swallow their pride and revert it. Its not a wild thought that this might not only lead to PTers not speaking their minds anymore (which seems somewhat important beeing a PT), it also further diminishes the quaility of playtester and of those willing to apply.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->c. Admins and the organiser may in exceptional circumstances make changes to all rules set forth
below at any time without warning or explanation if such a change is necessary for the good-
order and timely progress of the tournament.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hate to say it but RedDragon's fears he expressed when these rules were made have been realized. :/ That one clause completely invalidates anything else said in the so called "rules".
I really hate to say it but RedDragon's fears he expressed when these rules were made have been realized. :/ That one clause completely invalidates anything else said in the so called "rules".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also trusted Hugh when he said that these catch all rules would be only used in absolute worst case scenarios. I think writing an ASCII penis to the game chat was used as an example. I don't think "rofl, hitreg" is comparable to this kind of behaviour in any way and makes me feel that all the teams and players participating in the tournament have been misled and betrayed. We all should've listened to you RedDragon.
<!--quoteo(post=1999369:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM:name=Captain Ventris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Ventris @ Oct 29 2012, 03:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why would something that tame be ban-worthy, when nothing (to my knowledge) was put against Archaea for winning a tournament (Guru?) through a tactic they considered cheap (Skulk Rush), Fana then stating in chat that it was cheap and needed to change, and Scrajm in his interview saying several related things?
Not that Archaea <i>should </i>have had any disciplinary action taken against them, but if the Admins flip out over one lone comment, you'd think that would have made their heads explode. It's not just over the top, it's inconsistent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That tournament was Blind's Beta Cup which had totally different rules and organizer.
And regarind rules, all team captains received a rules e-mail the night between friday and saturday euro time. There it says:
The main problem here, imo, is that these rules are too harshly enforced. Ryan (and the others in similiar positions) should have been warned, and then if they did it again, banned. And that ryan was removed from PT is also a very odd and way too harsch decision. PT leaders really should think this over, swallow their pride and revert it. Its not a wild thought that this might not only lead to PTers not speaking their minds anymore (which seems somewhat important beeing a PT), it also further diminishes the quaility of playtester and of those willing to apply.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was a PT I would be embarrassed at the # of bugs that slip through. Really who ever the PT leaders are there absolutely terrible. UWE needs to get some skilled players in there. Also there are so many map bugs is crazy. As of thos rules and bannings. If UWE is going to be running anything after this people need to be let go. Like hugh that guys just bad for business.
When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.
When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More bugs than you could know are reported, and UWE work hard to fix them. Only so much can be done in so little time by so few people(UWE employees).
The fact that such small off-hand remarks resulted in a ban is just silly. Way too harsh. I understand that UWE fears that such comments might have a detrimental effect to the growth of the competitive scene. However, the banning of players for such minor offenses is only going to alienate your CURRENT competitive scene, the same community that's participated in many tournaments already, which has helped promote the game.
rofl hitreg
rofl hitreg
A number of ex-PTs in this thread were removed due to their behavior. Each one broke the PT Guidelines, which I implemented after Jiriki left as people did not know what was expected of them in terms of work and behavior. They're nothing draconian, just simple rules like "Be nice to others" and "You're representing UWE and the PT Group, your actions in public reflect us all". Clearly these simple rules are easy to follow, and yet a number of former PTs broke these on multiple occasions. Others were removed from lack of attendance; not showing up for weeks at a time without a reason given. We need a relatively cohesive team in order to catch and report bugs in a timely manner, or your next patch might not even be playable due to lack of available playtesters.
<!--quoteo(post=1999363:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:35 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 03:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999363"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly though, I'm even more shocked by eh getting kicked from PT because he made a few comments in the twitch stream chat -- comments which were entirely unrelated to anything he has done as PT. Not only does it make no sense, but it means the PT team loses its last remaining participant with experience with top tier competitive play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1999382:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:52 AM:name=Arkanti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arkanti @ Oct 29 2012, 03:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm also really disappointed that Eh is no longer a PT, we needed more like him and he's always come across to me as a calm reasonable person. Felt the same way about Dragon...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh's work as a PT has been fantastic and I have told him this personally. He has been especially helpful to UWE and the PT Group. However, Eh's behavior recently in public has caused his removal. He has been warned numerous times about breaking the PT Guidelines. I've given him many chances. I made it clear just the other week in a private email that he was on his final warning and any more public misbehaviour or breaking of the PT Guidelines would result in him being removed without warning. Just because you do good work, does not allow you to insult people in public or misbehave. We're trying to promote NS2 as having a great community who helps each other out in a friendly environment.
<!--quoteo(post=1999511:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:24 AM:name=pRiNcEkAhUnA)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pRiNcEkAhUnA @ Oct 29 2012, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh was a great PT, and contributed greatly to the production of NS2, and I had a pleasure of working with Eh during my time as a PT. Great PT's don't seem to last very long on the PT team though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your definition of "Great PT" is clearly different than mine. If people cannot play well together, and fight and insult or break basic rules, I don't see that as "Great PT" material.
<!--quoteo(post=1999480:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:53 AM:name=PersianImm0rtal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PersianImm0rtal @ Oct 29 2012, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999480"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->playtesting is governed by other volunteers, and is basically just a popularity contest in some cases. And you will be kicked if you do not attend them regulary.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a popularity contest. Applicants to the PT group have been taken from all walks of life. Veterans of NS1 and even completely new people to NS2 who have a great application have been taken in, as we need new insight from fresh eyes into a game we're all far too intimate with. However if you don't show up to playtests without a reason for weeks and weeks at a time, you're already not contributing anyway. Removal is a last resort.
<!--quoteo(post=1999610:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:44 AM:name=nSidia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nSidia @ Oct 29 2012, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999610"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If I was a PT I would be embarrassed at the # of bugs that slip through. Really who ever the PT leaders are there absolutely terrible. UWE needs to get some skilled players in there. Also there are so many map bugs is crazy. As of thos rules and bannings. If UWE is going to be running anything after this people need to be let go. Like hugh that guys just bad for business.
When it comes to Ryan i would rather have a hacker in PT then noobs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hi. I'm the Lead Playtester. You seem to not know how things are run. We have a small group of dedicated players like yourself who volunteer our free time to help find bugs, and report them. I'm sorry your favorite bug has not been fixed yet, but more than likely it's been reported already and is in a queue waiting to be fixed. You see, there are only a few programmers at UWE, as they're a team of 9 in the office. They try to work on a priority list while also fixing bugs and broken builds of the game, many broken builds which you never get to see because of the hundreds of hours the Playtesters put into testing each and every week in the internal build of the game that is made. The playtesters in the last week have done more testing of NS2 than ever, as well as filming duties for various trailers and other testing. All this around their own lives, and also clan duties. Yes, I said Clan. We have members from EoD, 156, 420, Nexzil and probably more I can't quite recall. I would call them all very much skilled. I've noticed you've not applied to be a playtester yourself. If you count yourself as a 'skilled player' there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
We also have a competitive Map Testing Team made up of members from clans like All-In & Inversion, who test old and new maps for exploits and play scrims every Tuesday and Thursday on them. They're doing an awesome job. But again, they're doing it from their own free time around their own clan needs. Things are fixed and things are missed. The PT & Map tester groups are all volunteers, there is only so much we can do in our free time.
For the record, I could not be prouder of the PT and Map testing teams. People have been putting in crazy hours to help get NS2 ready for public release and I think they deserve a round of applause for their efforts and not be berated.
This is a link to the old CAL CS:S rule set. I suspect that its a bit outdated in some respects, but my point in the Captain's meeting was that if we want the competitive community (and these tournaments) to be taken seriously, we need a much more rigorous and thorough examination of the rules we use during these events.
In the above example, there are not only rules that explicitely state how Violations will be handled, there are also rules that create a very clear means by which players can dispute those rulings.
"Catch-alls," as Hugh has called them, are for the most part completely absent.
Hugh's statement was that there would never be an offical UWE event that did not include the power for UWE to a) modify rules at any point without warning or b) ban players/teams without exception.
What he failed to realize is that all tournament organizers have both of these powers without them ever being stated in the rules. Openly stating these things in your rules document is wildly unprofessional. Resorting to their use is nothing short of a complete failure on the part of both admins and organizers.
As to the banter between Ryan and others. Can we not, for just a minute, put aside personal grudges to address this larger issue? I'm as guilty as anyone else to slinging mud. But lets just agree to deal with it later. I would rather we come to some resolution on this than let rivalries weaken our position and prevent us from demanding a change in how these event's are managed and officiated.
As to how UWE (Hugh) will handle this reaction? As far as I know, Hugh told us during that Captain's meeting that if we don't like these rules, we don't have to play in UWE sponsored events.
I for one would like UWE to improve and to put on legitimate and entertaining events. But guess what folks? He's right. We don't have to play at their events. And I'd be willing to bet that if they can't shape up after this, we won't be.
Round 1 of Arc vs Duplex was not streamed, it ended after maybe 20 minutes. Multiple non-captain players did friendly banter in chat during the match, GISP the admin present didn't have a problem with it. And the round concluded.
Round 2 began similarly without being streamed and the admin GISP present. Midway through the match, Hugh and Wasabi joined to stream. This fact was unknown to myself as I was playing the game at the time. After getting upset at the hit registration issues present in the game I said "rofl hitreg" after dying in frustration.
The round ended. And I was informed by scrajm from the captain's chat that I had been banned from the tournament and should I want to appeal the ban I should send a convincing email to Hugh as to why I should be unbanned.
I sent that email explaining the situation above as it actually happened and his response was that I had no comprehension or understanding of why what I did was "unacceptable."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I saw it all as "friendly banter" and have been unaware of any bans, untill i stumpled upon this topic.
It may be my years as a community mod or admin, at alot of differnt places. That im not so strict on enforcing all rules to the letter, for the sake "fun" and flow of the event. (And only at the "999ping insident" Where 4 players from team and 1 from other had issues, did i interveen and called rematch).
As a op post listed a few pages back, neerly all the teams at some point or another made use of the "free eggs exploit".
And honestly, this might be becouse of my ignorance, i thoght it was a feature(so did Blind) to counter egg-locking. And i should have been aware of it being a "big nono", prio to the turnament start. So that one is on me, sorry about that.
In any case, i been told to lay it arest. But i still wanted to clarify why i did not take any actions myself.