Just to make a point about "ignorance", while the bug may have been caught and fixed, I believe Charlie and Wasabi even discussed the fact that eggs cost 1 res each when spawned from shifts during the Stream on Saturday.
If the Casters (one of whom is the creater of the game) are openly unaware of the issue, it stands to reason even less informed players will be as well. Ignorance in this case, while not entirely excusable, is reasonable considering we've all generally taken 1 res egg spawns as a given and generally do not give it a second though.
This is somewhat equivalent to med packs suddenly, mysteriously, becoming free as well. Only those comms with the presence of mind to pay very close attention to their resource pool would notice this change right away. And even then, I suspect they would not see it right away. As more often than not they'd be caught up with the act of trying to quickly drop the med packs in combat. More likely, they would notice sometime after the fact. The majority of people would not even think about it and it would very likely go unnoticed for some time.
That so many teams used Shift eggs without anyone (not the Casters not the Viewers or Players) even noticing that they were free seems to lend credibility to the idea that Nexzil did not intend to exploit or abuse a bug.
As well, this is a bug that, by its nature, is completely unavoidable. To my earlier point, without a more robust rule set that can handle this sort of thing, its the players who are left holding the bag.
The real error here was that this information was not disseminated to anyone at all. The players, the casters, the viewers, the admins, the game's creater were all completely unaware of the bug until it became painfully apparent. But regardless of that, the reaction to it was both unprofessional and disingenuous.
While we could argue all day as to whether Nexzil abused the bug (or even knew about it), it does not change the fact that ALL shift eggs are free. Using the ability at all is a technical exploit of a bug. The half-cocked reaction of the admins is the problem. Not the supposed abuse.
What we need is a much more rigorous set of clearly defined rules for future events. Saying a) don't use exploits is completely meaningless without admins who can even handedly handle situations of gross oversights and unavoidable bugs.
The response of DQing Nexzil, and then docking a point from All-In is absolutely baffling. Why were point taken away from anyone at all? And if you can't answer that with a specific, clearly defined rule, then you're simply doing it wrong. If you don't have a rule that handles the problem, then thats a failure of the organizer, not the teams or players.
Again, the PT team loses a great asset and it's a shame eh is not part of the group anymore. The PT group however, does not do any balance work, so I hope one day there will be a balance team composed of competitive players to provide feedback in this regard in a well organized manner (instead of the horrible disorganized threads we have now, which, in most cases result in nothing being changed), I've advocated for this in past, and I still do hope this happens at some point.
Now, onto the tournament stuff, these bannings are a very big overreaction to the mild comments being made. How can you ban a player for saying "rofl hitreg" or commenting on how every game has been won because of the early onos? I can't understand how that deserves a banning, maybe a warning, and that's still too much. How can you ban someone for saying this? If you don't want to read the players, disable the chat, or make it toggleable, or whatever, it adds nothing to the stream anyways.
These extreme measures can only damage UWE run tournaments/competitions, as clans won't be as eager to participate in them. The way they were organized and the little info available for them in time hasn't helped. We all want to help NS2 become big, but you have to help us help you.
I am glad to see this hasn't been deleted overnight or turned into a flame-war.
I would greatly appreciate if that could remain the case. I understand the tension about the Shift/Egg issue, and as All-In was part of it/semi-involved, I sympathize and think it's something to be considered and reflects a poorly-managed execution of the tournament rules at best.
In regards to the people asking if any email or PMs have been received in regards to my original post; the answer is thusfar no. I have not received any official communication from any official UWE representative, either in this forum (Unless Obraxis counts, but his was exclusively about the PTs) or through my email. I suspect it will be forthcoming, I can only hope it will be with an open mind and realistically read what I've written and others are saying;
I think I speak for us all when I say <i><b>We love natural selection 2</b></i> and that's why we care. We want a thriving community, not a divided, hostile environment where over-reactive punishments are levied perpetually against players for incredibly lacking reasons, or where entire teams in a small team pool are removed and threatened for absolutely no official reason.
It may be growing pains, it may just be pre-release stress, but in order for some semblance of validation to incarnate, it must be established that rules be firm, logical, not stuffed with 'bypass clauses', 'catch-alls' and 'we do what we want when we want no matter what it is and no matter our reasoning'; as others have said, this clause silently exists in all things, overtly stating it is nothing but a flaunt of power, and comes across as very illegitimate. What is the purpose of laws if the first law is that all laws are subject to immediate revocation or complete and total alteration with no regard to any other laws?
There are a LOT of examples throughout these days of play where players broke 'The Rules' far worse than what has transpired to result in the 'bans' on competitive players, yet no punishments were levied. There are examples (Such as GISP's example) where a Tournament Officiating Admin declared a remake, cancelled the remake, then a few minutes later, declared it a remake again. (I absolutely mean you no hostility GISP, it's totally understandable, but these kinds of things make the rules and the systems being utilised to facilitate a prize-winning tournament as grey-zones and the rules as not rules at all). Lots of players talk mid-match, just not under the eyes of certain Admins (As i have now learned), and alot of people comment, laugh, and have a good time while playing Natural Selection 2.
To quote the first and foremost rule i was told: "Have fun". The organizers need to remember that we love their game, we bought their game and support their company, and we want to help them succeed. Cajoling, threatening, and alienating us because of things like slight mockery of a current build, or just logical statements about the outcomes of matches, or complimenting the opposing team's aim, should not be banhammer-worthy. Not even warning-worthy. They should just have a good time with us, get into the competitive spirit, and enjoy the heated match.
Thanks for your support, all. I am truly hoping to achieve something here in regards to the future comp. scene... and it seems a long time coming, since most of the inv, nxzl, exertus, and probably even arc. players simply don't want to risk anything by stating these things and making this great rift known.
-Colt
EDIT: Another good example of the rules simply not being followed-through is that NXZL was officially listed as DISQUALIFIED (Not docked points) for exploiting the egg/shift problem. After Locklear (<3 you locklear) thoroughly argued the matter for some hours, the decision was simply overturned and we were informed we'd attend a NON-Streamed, 'No interest in it' Best of 5 with NXZL before the final. Once an official decision like a DQ is declared, rescinding it is another example of making the system look iffy.
I think it is also important to recognize that acting as an Admin for matches with such loose and ambiguous rules is incredibly difficult.
If your rules don't address something, and it comes up in a game you're admining, how do you justify any reaction at all?
Personally, I don't hold the admins accountable for these problems. Their role is merely to enforce the rules as they understand them. The problem are the rules themselves, and the generally disingenuous, unprofessional attitude the developers have held during their creation and enforcement.
If I seem overly critical, its because I'm frustrated. I can only take solace in the possibility that this will all be resolved and we wont have to deal with such nonsense in the future. But this was the Release Tournament, and (again, as I stated in the Captain's meeting) these rules have set a terrible, and dangerous, precedent for how these events will be managed in the future.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999686:date=Oct 29 2012, 01:19 PM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Oct 29 2012, 01:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999686"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Eh's work as a PT has been fantastic and I have told him this personally. He has been especially helpful to UWE and the PT Group. However, Eh's behavior recently in public has caused his removal. He has been warned numerous times about breaking the PT Guidelines. I've given him many chances. I made it clear just the other week in a private email that he was on his final warning and any more public misbehaviour or breaking of the PT Guidelines would result in him being removed without warning. Just because you do good work, does not allow you to insult people in public or misbehave. We're trying to promote NS2 as having a great community who helps each other out in a friendly environment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You still haven't explained how commenting on a team abusing a bug in the twitch chat is "public misbehaviour" or has any connection at all with his participation in PT. It's only been weeks since he was almost kicked out because he was accused of hacking. I guess being accused of something is "public misbehaviour or breaking of the PT Guidelines" too?
I should add that I don't have any reason to criticize the PT group for the work they do, I don't agree with the posters who have done so in this thread.
The issue of Ryan and his removal from PT is secondary to the mishandling of official Competitive Events.
As SabaHell has already stated, if anyone needs answers to that specific question, they can take it up with her and Obraxis outside of this thread.
Please....PLEASE. Let us focus on constructing a better competitive environment. Focus on what our response to the recent tournament should be, and how we as a community intend to rectify the problem going forward.
The only alternative we have to Official UWE Events is ultimately to look somewhere else. Is that what we want to do? If we do, where should we look?
The issue of a legitimate, professional rules document is also on the table. Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?
<!--quoteo(post=1999796:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 05:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only alternative we have to Official UWE Events is ultimately to look somewhere else. Is that what we want to do? If we do, where should we look?
The issue of a legitimate, professional rules document is also on the table. Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, a community-made rules document would be a great thing. It would provide a good template to base future tournaments on or at the very least would help us discuss our differences in regard to organizing tournaments. Also, one thing to keep in mind here is that after we provided a template for usage of round robin in tournaments and argued for it, UWE tournaments started using round robin. A well written rules document could also see use by UWE later on and be included - at least partially - in their way of doing things.
IMO the PT thing is an issue regardless, and honestly reading over the post it leaves me pretty confused as I apparently was kicked out for breaking the rules multiple times, even though I was never warned once nor aware that I had broke the rules more than once. Ontop of that I wasnt even given a chance to explain my side of what happened on the one incident I am aware of until 6 hours after I was removed.
Let's just be blunt. PT is ran poorly at best and there is very little motivation to do much in PT.
That is the sad state of affairs in PT and everyone knows it. I can't really blame people specifically for it because it is ran by volunteers with outside responsibilities, but the thing that makes PT especially depressing is that it manages to be absurdly draconian in etiquette enforcement while at the same time being completely inefficient and incompetent.
I could live with one or the other, but not both. There is no reason anyone should want to be a PT.
Can't help but notice there hasn't been a single word from the organizers about why they acted or what they plan to do about it. Obraxis has, of course, been great. We have a lot of context behind the PT rulings (which are in my opinion something for the PTers and removed to debate amongst themselves). The main point of this thread: the rampant bans and extreme punishments without warning issued at the tournament, has yet to be addressed by anyone.
I suppose it's possible that we won't get any response at all. Maybe it's easier to just ignore us and wait for the problem to go away than to admit wrongdoing.
<!--quoteo(post=1999822:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:07 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let's just be blunt. PT is ran poorly at best and there is very little motivation to do much in PT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably not the right thread to ask but could you expand on what ways you think it is run poorly?
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999796:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The issue of Ryan and his removal from PT is secondary to the mishandling of official Competitive Events.
As SabaHell has already stated, if anyone needs answers to that specific question, they can take it up with her and Obraxis outside of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is perfectly possible to discuss two issues at the same time. Both are of importance to us as a community. Some public spotlight might do wonders, as opposed to everything being kept to private conversations.
<!--quoteo(post=1999796:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, that's a bit silly. If "we" wanted to, we could choose not to participate in UWE sponsored/organized events, but I don't see any reason for that yet. This isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm, it is an annoyance. Even with the less-than-ideal admining, I've enjoyed playing in the tournaments and I thank the organizers for hosting them.
If the community grows to a decent size after release, I'm sure non-uwe organization of tournaments will take over by itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1999824:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:08 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 29 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose it's possible that we won't get any response at all. Maybe it's easier to just ignore us and wait for the problem to go away than to admit wrongdoing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm going to go ahead and guess that it isn't deliberate dodging, simply a lack of time to make a proper reply. As past threads have shown, hasty replies only makes things worse. I think we all have to bear in mind that 2 days before release, these guys are going to be pretty busy with other things...
<!--quoteo(post=1999817:date=Oct 29 2012, 07:00 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 07:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999817"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMO the PT thing is an issue regardless, and honestly reading over the post it leaves me pretty confused as I apparently was kicked out for breaking the rules multiple times, even though I was never warned once nor aware that I had broke the rules more than once. Ontop of that I wasnt even given a chance to explain my side of what happened on the one incident I am aware of until 6 hours after I was removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
will ns2c be ready for 1.0? id really like to play even tho i suck at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1999822:date=Oct 30 2012, 01:37 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 30 2012, 01:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999822"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I could live with one or the other, but not both. There is no reason anyone should want to be a PT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wan't to get my PT privileges back after being wrongfully removed from it after so called being inactive so I can make this a better game even if it mean staying up to 3-4am again ( on the days I'm not working)
The biggest issue at the moment is that the lead playtesters lack the quality and technical understanding of the old lead (Lance), who was able to have basic necessities like a server up in time for PT. Or even in a reasonable amount of time.
So this responsibility has fallen more or less on Brian (The Bearded One) and the other dev's.
Brian is more of a lead playtester at this point than any other individual. And that is ridiculous as he is fixing bugs.
The other issue being the efficiency at which playtests are conducted. The difference between having a lead playtester who understood the nature of bugs, playtesting, etc and could delegate testing concurrently to the appropriate people and actually allow PT's to do test games instead of checking if 2-3 bugs were fixed over the course of the same 2 hours is both discouraging and extremely unfulfilling to the point you would never want to go to PT.
The draconian etiquette issue I will sum up as succinctly as possible.
My warning for improper etiquette prior to this event was a 3-4 paragraph reprimanding of my use of the word "g a y" in an inflammatory context. Yes, I said "That was g a y." And was reprimanded for it and given my final warning.
Meanwhile the official stream is making Mexican jokes and lead play testers are routinely doing so to one of the mapping pillars of the community, mendasp. Really mature.
edit: Ok I can't believe that, "g a y" is actually filtered by the forums
<!--quoteo(post=1999828:date=Oct 29 2012, 10:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 10:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm going to go ahead and guess that it isn't deliberate dodging, simply a lack of time to make a proper reply. As past threads have shown, hasty replies only makes things worse. I think we all have to bear in mind that 2 days before release, these guys are going to be pretty busy with other things...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd like that to be the case, I really would. We've had so much contention and shadiness between casters, organizers, and players in the past (in part due to said hastyness, I think), that it hampers my inclination to provide all the benefits to the doubt.
Time will tell, I guess. We'll have to see how, and if, this unfolds.
<i>Edit: it is pretty dumb that that's filtered.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1999828:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is perfectly possible to discuss two issues at the same time. Both are of importance to us as a community. Some public spotlight might do wonders, as opposed to everything being kept to private conversations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is perfectly possible to discuss two things at the same time. However it is easier and more meaningful to have two separate conversations rather than try to wedge two similar but different ones into the same thread. Feel free to start another thread about the PT situation. I agree that some public spotlight might be very useful. I do recommend reviewing the NDA before you start a public discussion about it though. Just in case.
<!--quoteo(post=1999828:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, that's a bit silly. If "we" wanted to, we could choose not to participate in UWE sponsored/organized events, but I don't see any reason for that yet. This isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm, it is an annoyance. Even with the less-than-ideal admining, I've enjoyed playing in the tournaments and I thank the organizers for hosting them.
If the community grows to a decent size after release, I'm sure non-uwe organization of tournaments will take over by itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think perhaps you would feel more concerned if the bans in some way concerned you or your team. You're making a big point of Ryan's situation, and diminishing the value of the other. This seems disingenuous at best.
The fact is that I am not making the suggestion that we look outside of UWE for our Competitive Environment. UWE made this suggestion in response to criticism of their tournament rules document. I would like UWE to continue to sponsor events, and I would like to continue participating in them. The issue is how well they're managing these events, and while you are entitled to your opinion on that point, it seems both hasty and arrogant to simply rule out the complaints of others in favor of your own opinion.
The "less-than-ideal" administration resulted in the banning of an entire team from any and all future UWE sponsored events for a comment even less controversial than the one made by Ryan. If you do not see the problem with this, then I can only question your judgement on the matter.
I agree that it isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm. But you should recognize it for what it is: a terrible precedent.
I don't claim to be right on this subject, but these are my fears. And I don't believe they are baseless. Do with them what you will, but as I said, this thread needs to be a place where we can reach some sort of consensus as a community. Assuming that things will work themselves out are how we got here in the first place.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999851:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Feel free to start another thread about the PT situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who died and made you king of this thread?
<!--quoteo(post=1999851:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think perhaps you would feel more concerned if the bans in some way concerned you or your team. You're making a big point of Ryan's situation, and diminishing the value of the other. This seems disingenuous at best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't tried to diminish the value of any situation, my comment was entirely in response to your "viva la revolucion" style post. I don't think creating an atmosphere of ultimatums will help resolve the issues. Ryan also got banned from the tournament and was not allowed to play in the semi final. How much more would you like the bans to concern our team?
I agree that all of the bans seem unwarranted, especially banning All-In from future tournaments. I would, however, like to see a reply from the organizers before we start jumping to conclusions.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1999838:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:20 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Oct 29 2012, 11:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999838"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest issue at the moment is that the lead playtesters lack the quality and technical understanding of the old lead (Lance), who was able to have basic necessities like a server up in time for PT. Or even in a reasonable amount of time.
So this responsibility has fallen more or less on Brian (The Bearded One) and the other dev's.
Brian is more of a lead playtester at this point than any other individual. And that is ridiculous as he is fixing bugs.
The other issue being the efficiency at which playtests are conducted. The difference between having a lead playtester who understood the nature of bugs, playtesting, etc and could delegate testing concurrently to the appropriate people and actually allow PT's to do test games instead of checking if 2-3 bugs were fixed over the course of the same 2 hours is both discouraging and extremely unfulfilling to the point you would never want to go to PT.
The draconian etiquette issue I will sum up as succinctly as possible.
My warning for improper etiquette prior to this event was a 3-4 paragraph reprimanding of my use of the word "g a y" in an inflammatory context. Yes, I said "That was g a y." And was reprimanded for it and given my final warning.
Meanwhile the official stream is making Mexican jokes and lead play testers are routinely doing so to one of the mapping pillars of the community, mendasp. Really mature.
edit: Ok I can't believe that, "g a y" is actually filtered by the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just want to clear up the facts in this post: Lance was never an official PT Lead. He was a deputy who ran his own servers whereas now EUPT does not have their own server and NAPT is ran off servers owned by one of the other Playtesters. Majority of the time we're also waiting on builds to be made which does eat up a lot of time when the build is completely broken.
I have not been around as of late due to various factors in real life that keeps me from attending majority of the playtests, which was why I had to find replacements to fill my role; they currently are running every NAPT at the moment and I have not heard any complaints since they took over. As far as the jokes you are referring to: those were stopped months ago from my knowledge. Anything after that is either when I'm not around or Mendasp has not said anything since I confronted the playtesters.
In terms of why you were removed from playtest, eh, is because you seem to ignore the same PT conduct guideline over and over again: Please behave like mature adults when out in public. You represent both the PT Group and UWE, please act accordingly.
So far your behaviour recently has been for the lack of a better word: ######.
When competitive players stop having horrible attitudes, then we will start bringing on more; but until then. The ones that we do bring on usually are the ones we have to kick months later for either inactivity or behavioural issues.
If you have a problem as to why you were removed, eh, you are more than welcome to come speak to Obraxis or myself on this issue. Complaining in a thread about the Tourney banhammer is a poor choice.
<!--quoteo(post=1999869:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who died and made you king of this thread?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please refer to:
<!--quoteo(post=1999545:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:21 AM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 29 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Virsoul, eh? could you take it to PM? Your back and forth is gradually having less & less to do with the thread topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Thread Title.
<!--quoteo(post=1999869:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't diminished the value of any situation, my comment was entirely in response to your "viva la revolucion" style post. Ryan also got banned from the tournament and was not allowed to play in the semi final. How much more would you like the bans to concern our team?
I'm not ruling out any complaints, what I'm saying is that we're nowhere near the point where it is appropriate to start discussing a boycott of UWE tournaments or any other reaction. We haven't even given the organizers a chance to post their side of the story yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implying that I've recommend a boycott when I've stated exactly the opposite twice.
<!--quoteo(post=1999869:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it goes without saying that just about everyone in this thread, including me, disagrees with all of the bans made in this tournament -- at least as far as they have been portrayed in this thread. I don't know anything about what prompted the ban of All-In, but I certainly agree that from what has been posted in this thread, it seems unwarranted and should be overturned as soon as possible.
To be entirely precise: I expect the bans to either be in some way justified, or overturned. My experience is that the guys organizing these events are simply trying to do their best to make good events, and if they make mistakes they try to rectify them. If they don't this time, then it's obvious that something has to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be entirely precise, no one expected the bans, any of them, to happen in the first place. While you may not appreciate the way I'm presenting my opinion, your suggestion is nothing more than "wait-and-see." And, as has been pointed out by others, that didn't exactly work out the way anyone hoped it would.
How about this Fanatic. If you don't like the way I'm presenting myself, why not try to address your own opinions in a different fashion, while at the same time either ignoring mine or at the very least doing me the kindness of not directing your objections directly to me in such a way as you end up putting words in my mouth.
This is the last I'm responding to you on this, as Mouse will undoubtedly (and very rightly) need to step in otherwise, and no one benefits from either of our verbal engagements.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited October 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1999881:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:01 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Oct 29 2012, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When competitive players stop having horrible attitudes, then we will start bringing on more; but until then. The ones that we do bring on usually are the ones we have to kick months later for either inactivity or behavioural issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't think that, perhaps, when almost the entirety of a large group of players who are extremely dedicated to promoting and improving the game have either left or been kicked (some for apparently frivolous reasons, which you and obraxis have yet to clarify other than in vaguely general terms), the problem might not be with the players, but the system?
<!--quoteo(post=1999881:date=Oct 29 2012, 06:01 PM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Oct 29 2012, 06:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999881"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as the jokes you are referring to: those were stopped months ago from my knowledge. Anything after that is either when I'm not around or Mendasp has not said anything since I confronted the playtesters.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's the funny part, Wasabi did that very tasteful joke in the official stream when they casted one of our matches. While I assume he didn't mean any bad by it, and I didn't take them as bad the first few thousand times, it gets old very fast, which is why I complained at some point, specially when 90% of the time they come from the PT lead telling people they represent UWE.
Most importantly, I liked the part where I got more racial jokes in response to my initial complaint, real mature.
I don't attend PTs anymore and only address map issues so it has obviously not come up again since then.
Considering how much I've seen you exasperated at how not funny the mexican jokes and potentially how offensive they can be to people who don't know anyone involved, it seems much more significant than use of the word 'g a y', which while not pleasant is something that is present in literally every popular online game that's ever been made to this day. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it futile to completely outlaw it in any situations, imo. The more popular a game gets, the more that word is going to get thrown around on public, on competitive, on streams, and on forums.
<!--quoteo(post=1999899:date=Oct 30 2012, 02:59 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Oct 30 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999899"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think we can boil this whole thread down to.. "Nice admin abuse"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incoming ban and removal from Squad 5
well... i personally allways ignored the rule about not talking in stream, id rather joke with people and have some chuckles before a game, ive never even been told off for it lol
Whats the point in building hbz a clog prison and torturing a marine for information with parasite if we cant all laugh about it :D dont the people streaming the competition enjoy laughing at stuff like this? dont the casters enjoy it as well? i know ive had blind hugh and wasabi chukling on the stream a few times!
And.... we all know the difference between completely harmless ammusing banter and things going over the line.... i would have known not to comment on hitreg, it seems rather obvious to me lol.
call me mad, but i dont see the problem with this rule??? i mean, they have allways let me say whatever the hell i want, when im clearly not going over the line.... and the only time i can see that this rule is being inforced.... i kinda agee that it was questionable...
I mean you dont catch me even talking to exertus on the stream for these tourny, cause much as i love and lol at the drama, i dont want people taking it the wrong way, i can tell its possibly inappropriate, might lead to an escalation, and i keep my chaffin gob shut.
Tournament admins should be able to change the rules whenever they want, to whatever they want, we should let them, and they should pay us back by allways being fair.... i kinda feel that in the end, after appeals, a fair result was reached on this issue... so cant really see the problem ??
Well atleast I now know where I stand with the PT leaders, and pretty much every other competitive player apparently. Pretty shameful to make statements like that about all players when you have no actual dealings with a majority of them, and are basing your judgements on your twisted views of the actions of a few. I had actually taken the removal of PT relatively lightly considering I actually agreed to MapTest shortly afterwards, a decision I can clearly say I now regret.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1999915:date=Oct 29 2012, 05:39 PM:name=Hunter.S.T.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hunter.S.T. @ Oct 29 2012, 05:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tournament admins should be able to change the rules whenever they want, to whatever they want, we should let them, and they should pay us back by allways being fair.... i kinda feel that in the end, after appeals, a fair result was reached on this issue... so cant really see the problem ??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> All-In being banned from all future UWE events and Ryan not being allowed to play in the semi final seems like a fair result to you?
Comments
If the Casters (one of whom is the creater of the game) are openly unaware of the issue, it stands to reason even less informed players will be as well. Ignorance in this case, while not entirely excusable, is reasonable considering we've all generally taken 1 res egg spawns as a given and generally do not give it a second though.
This is somewhat equivalent to med packs suddenly, mysteriously, becoming free as well. Only those comms with the presence of mind to pay very close attention to their resource pool would notice this change right away. And even then, I suspect they would not see it right away. As more often than not they'd be caught up with the act of trying to quickly drop the med packs in combat. More likely, they would notice sometime after the fact. The majority of people would not even think about it and it would very likely go unnoticed for some time.
That so many teams used Shift eggs without anyone (not the Casters not the Viewers or Players) even noticing that they were free seems to lend credibility to the idea that Nexzil did not intend to exploit or abuse a bug.
As well, this is a bug that, by its nature, is completely unavoidable. To my earlier point, without a more robust rule set that can handle this sort of thing, its the players who are left holding the bag.
The real error here was that this information was not disseminated to anyone at all. The players, the casters, the viewers, the admins, the game's creater were all completely unaware of the bug until it became painfully apparent. But regardless of that, the reaction to it was both unprofessional and disingenuous.
While we could argue all day as to whether Nexzil abused the bug (or even knew about it), it does not change the fact that ALL shift eggs are free. Using the ability at all is a technical exploit of a bug. The half-cocked reaction of the admins is the problem. Not the supposed abuse.
What we need is a much more rigorous set of clearly defined rules for future events. Saying a) don't use exploits is completely meaningless without admins who can even handedly handle situations of gross oversights and unavoidable bugs.
The response of DQing Nexzil, and then docking a point from All-In is absolutely baffling. Why were point taken away from anyone at all? And if you can't answer that with a specific, clearly defined rule, then you're simply doing it wrong. If you don't have a rule that handles the problem, then thats a failure of the organizer, not the teams or players.
Now, onto the tournament stuff, these bannings are a very big overreaction to the mild comments being made. How can you ban a player for saying "rofl hitreg" or commenting on how every game has been won because of the early onos? I can't understand how that deserves a banning, maybe a warning, and that's still too much. How can you ban someone for saying this? If you don't want to read the players, disable the chat, or make it toggleable, or whatever, it adds nothing to the stream anyways.
These extreme measures can only damage UWE run tournaments/competitions, as clans won't be as eager to participate in them. The way they were organized and the little info available for them in time hasn't helped. We all want to help NS2 become big, but you have to help us help you.
PS: rofl hitreg
I don't really want UWE to become like kespa because nobody likes kespa.
just saying
I am glad to see this hasn't been deleted overnight or turned into a flame-war.
I would greatly appreciate if that could remain the case. I understand the tension about the Shift/Egg issue, and as All-In was part of it/semi-involved, I sympathize and think it's something to be considered and reflects a poorly-managed execution of the tournament rules at best.
In regards to the people asking if any email or PMs have been received in regards to my original post; the answer is thusfar no. I have not received any official communication from any official UWE representative, either in this forum (Unless Obraxis counts, but his was exclusively about the PTs) or through my email. I suspect it will be forthcoming, I can only hope it will be with an open mind and realistically read what I've written and others are saying;
I think I speak for us all when I say <i><b>We love natural selection 2</b></i> and that's why we care. We want a thriving community, not a divided, hostile environment where over-reactive punishments are levied perpetually against players for incredibly lacking reasons, or where entire teams in a small team pool are removed and threatened for absolutely no official reason.
It may be growing pains, it may just be pre-release stress, but in order for some semblance of validation to incarnate, it must be established that rules be firm, logical, not stuffed with 'bypass clauses', 'catch-alls' and 'we do what we want when we want no matter what it is and no matter our reasoning'; as others have said, this clause silently exists in all things, overtly stating it is nothing but a flaunt of power, and comes across as very illegitimate. What is the purpose of laws if the first law is that all laws are subject to immediate revocation or complete and total alteration with no regard to any other laws?
There are a LOT of examples throughout these days of play where players broke 'The Rules' far worse than what has transpired to result in the 'bans' on competitive players, yet no punishments were levied. There are examples (Such as GISP's example) where a Tournament Officiating Admin declared a remake, cancelled the remake, then a few minutes later, declared it a remake again. (I absolutely mean you no hostility GISP, it's totally understandable, but these kinds of things make the rules and the systems being utilised to facilitate a prize-winning tournament as grey-zones and the rules as not rules at all). Lots of players talk mid-match, just not under the eyes of certain Admins (As i have now learned), and alot of people comment, laugh, and have a good time while playing Natural Selection 2.
To quote the first and foremost rule i was told: "Have fun".
The organizers need to remember that we love their game, we bought their game and support their company, and we want to help them succeed. Cajoling, threatening, and alienating us because of things like slight mockery of a current build, or just logical statements about the outcomes of matches, or complimenting the opposing team's aim, should not be banhammer-worthy. Not even warning-worthy. They should just have a good time with us, get into the competitive spirit, and enjoy the heated match.
Thanks for your support, all. I am truly hoping to achieve something here in regards to the future comp. scene... and it seems a long time coming, since most of the inv, nxzl, exertus, and probably even arc. players simply don't want to risk anything by stating these things and making this great rift known.
-Colt
EDIT: Another good example of the rules simply not being followed-through is that NXZL was officially listed as DISQUALIFIED (Not docked points) for exploiting the egg/shift problem. After Locklear (<3 you locklear) thoroughly argued the matter for some hours, the decision was simply overturned and we were informed we'd attend a NON-Streamed, 'No interest in it' Best of 5 with NXZL before the final. Once an official decision like a DQ is declared, rescinding it is another example of making the system look iffy.
If your rules don't address something, and it comes up in a game you're admining, how do you justify any reaction at all?
Personally, I don't hold the admins accountable for these problems. Their role is merely to enforce the rules as they understand them. The problem are the rules themselves, and the generally disingenuous, unprofessional attitude the developers have held during their creation and enforcement.
If I seem overly critical, its because I'm frustrated. I can only take solace in the possibility that this will all be resolved and we wont have to deal with such nonsense in the future. But this was the Release Tournament, and (again, as I stated in the Captain's meeting) these rules have set a terrible, and dangerous, precedent for how these events will be managed in the future.
You still haven't explained how commenting on a team abusing a bug in the twitch chat is "public misbehaviour" or has any connection at all with his participation in
PT. It's only been weeks since he was almost kicked out because he was accused of hacking. I guess being accused of something is "public misbehaviour or breaking of the PT Guidelines" too?
I should add that I don't have any reason to criticize the PT group for the work they do, I don't agree with the posters who have done so in this thread.
As SabaHell has already stated, if anyone needs answers to that specific question, they can take it up with her and Obraxis outside of this thread.
Please....PLEASE. Let us focus on constructing a better competitive environment. Focus on what our response to the recent tournament should be, and how we as a community intend to rectify the problem going forward.
The only alternative we have to Official UWE Events is ultimately to look somewhere else. Is that what we want to do? If we do, where should we look?
The issue of a legitimate, professional rules document is also on the table. Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?
The issue of a legitimate, professional rules document is also on the table. Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my opinion, a community-made rules document would be a great thing. It would provide a good template to base future tournaments on or at the very least would help us discuss our differences in regard to organizing tournaments. Also, one thing to keep in mind here is that after we provided a template for usage of round robin in tournaments and argued for it, UWE tournaments started using round robin. A well written rules document could also see use by UWE later on and be included - at least partially - in their way of doing things.
That is the sad state of affairs in PT and everyone knows it. I can't really blame people specifically for it because it is ran by volunteers with outside responsibilities, but the thing that makes PT especially depressing is that it manages to be absurdly draconian in etiquette enforcement while at the same time being completely inefficient and incompetent.
I could live with one or the other, but not both. There is no reason anyone should want to be a PT.
I suppose it's possible that we won't get any response at all. Maybe it's easier to just ignore us and wait for the problem to go away than to admit wrongdoing.
Probably not the right thread to ask but could you expand on what ways you think it is run poorly?
As SabaHell has already stated, if anyone needs answers to that specific question, they can take it up with her and Obraxis outside of this thread.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is perfectly possible to discuss two issues at the same time. Both are of importance to us as a community. Some public spotlight might do wonders, as opposed to everything being kept to private conversations.
<!--quoteo(post=1999796:date=Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 03:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either UWE is going to learn from this event, and rectify their own oversights, or we're going to have to take action on it ourselves. Are we prepared to go that far?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, that's a bit silly. If "we" wanted to, we could choose not to participate in UWE sponsored/organized events, but I don't see any reason for that yet. This isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm, it is an annoyance. Even with the less-than-ideal admining, I've enjoyed playing in the tournaments and I thank the organizers for hosting them.
If the community grows to a decent size after release, I'm sure non-uwe organization of tournaments will take over by itself.
<!--quoteo(post=1999824:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:08 PM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Oct 29 2012, 04:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999824"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suppose it's possible that we won't get any response at all. Maybe it's easier to just ignore us and wait for the problem to go away than to admit wrongdoing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to go ahead and guess that it isn't deliberate dodging, simply a lack of time to make a proper reply. As past threads have shown, hasty replies only makes things worse. I think we all have to bear in mind that 2 days before release, these guys are going to be pretty busy with other things...
will ns2c be ready for 1.0? id really like to play even tho i suck at it.
I wan't to get my PT privileges back after being wrongfully removed from it after so called being inactive so I can make this a better game even if it mean staying up to 3-4am again ( on the days I'm not working)
So this responsibility has fallen more or less on Brian (The Bearded One) and the other dev's.
Brian is more of a lead playtester at this point than any other individual. And that is ridiculous as he is fixing bugs.
The other issue being the efficiency at which playtests are conducted. The difference between having a lead playtester who understood the nature of bugs, playtesting, etc and could delegate testing concurrently to the appropriate people and actually allow PT's to do test games instead of checking if 2-3 bugs were fixed over the course of the same 2 hours is both discouraging and extremely unfulfilling to the point you would never want to go to PT.
The draconian etiquette issue I will sum up as succinctly as possible.
My warning for improper etiquette prior to this event was a 3-4 paragraph reprimanding of my use of the word "g a y" in an inflammatory context. Yes, I said "That was g a y." And was reprimanded for it and given my final warning.
Meanwhile the official stream is making Mexican jokes and lead play testers are routinely doing so to one of the mapping pillars of the community, mendasp. Really mature.
edit: Ok I can't believe that, "g a y" is actually filtered by the forums
I'd like that to be the case, I really would. We've had so much contention and shadiness between casters, organizers, and players in the past (in part due to said hastyness, I think), that it hampers my inclination to provide all the benefits to the doubt.
Time will tell, I guess. We'll have to see how, and if, this unfolds.
<i>Edit: it is pretty dumb that that's filtered.</i>
It is perfectly possible to discuss two things at the same time. However it is easier and more meaningful to have two separate conversations rather than try to wedge two similar but different ones into the same thread. Feel free to start another thread about the PT situation. I agree that some public spotlight might be very useful. I do recommend reviewing the NDA before you start a public discussion about it though. Just in case.
<!--quoteo(post=1999828:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999828"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, that's a bit silly. If "we" wanted to, we could choose not to participate in UWE sponsored/organized events, but I don't see any reason for that yet. This isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm, it is an annoyance. Even with the less-than-ideal admining, I've enjoyed playing in the tournaments and I thank the organizers for hosting them.
If the community grows to a decent size after release, I'm sure non-uwe organization of tournaments will take over by itself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think perhaps you would feel more concerned if the bans in some way concerned you or your team. You're making a big point of Ryan's situation, and diminishing the value of the other. This seems disingenuous at best.
The fact is that I am not making the suggestion that we look outside of UWE for our Competitive Environment. UWE made this suggestion in response to criticism of their tournament rules document. I would like UWE to continue to sponsor events, and I would like to continue participating in them. The issue is how well they're managing these events, and while you are entitled to your opinion on that point, it seems both hasty and arrogant to simply rule out the complaints of others in favor of your own opinion.
The "less-than-ideal" administration resulted in the banning of an entire team from any and all future UWE sponsored events for a comment even less controversial than the one made by Ryan. If you do not see the problem with this, then I can only question your judgement on the matter.
I agree that it isn't some end-of-the-community cataclysm. But you should recognize it for what it is: a terrible precedent.
I don't claim to be right on this subject, but these are my fears. And I don't believe they are baseless. Do with them what you will, but as I said, this thread needs to be a place where we can reach some sort of consensus as a community. Assuming that things will work themselves out are how we got here in the first place.
Who died and made you king of this thread?
<!--quoteo(post=1999851:date=Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Oct 29 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think perhaps you would feel more concerned if the bans in some way concerned you or your team. You're making a big point of Ryan's situation, and diminishing the value of the other. This seems disingenuous at best.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't tried to diminish the value of any situation, my comment was entirely in response to your "viva la revolucion" style post. I don't think creating an atmosphere of ultimatums will help resolve the issues. Ryan also got banned from the tournament and was not allowed to play in the semi final. How much more would you like the bans to concern our team?
I agree that all of the bans seem unwarranted, especially banning All-In from future tournaments. I would, however, like to see a reply from the organizers before we start jumping to conclusions.
So this responsibility has fallen more or less on Brian (The Bearded One) and the other dev's.
Brian is more of a lead playtester at this point than any other individual. And that is ridiculous as he is fixing bugs.
The other issue being the efficiency at which playtests are conducted. The difference between having a lead playtester who understood the nature of bugs, playtesting, etc and could delegate testing concurrently to the appropriate people and actually allow PT's to do test games instead of checking if 2-3 bugs were fixed over the course of the same 2 hours is both discouraging and extremely unfulfilling to the point you would never want to go to PT.
The draconian etiquette issue I will sum up as succinctly as possible.
My warning for improper etiquette prior to this event was a 3-4 paragraph reprimanding of my use of the word "g a y" in an inflammatory context. Yes, I said "That was g a y." And was reprimanded for it and given my final warning.
Meanwhile the official stream is making Mexican jokes and lead play testers are routinely doing so to one of the mapping pillars of the community, mendasp. Really mature.
edit: Ok I can't believe that, "g a y" is actually filtered by the forums<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just want to clear up the facts in this post: Lance was never an official PT Lead. He was a deputy who ran his own servers whereas now EUPT does not have their own server and NAPT is ran off servers owned by one of the other Playtesters. Majority of the time we're also waiting on builds to be made which does eat up a lot of time when the build is completely broken.
I have not been around as of late due to various factors in real life that keeps me from attending majority of the playtests, which was why I had to find replacements to fill my role; they currently are running every NAPT at the moment and I have not heard any complaints since they took over. As far as the jokes you are referring to: those were stopped months ago from my knowledge. Anything after that is either when I'm not around or Mendasp has not said anything since I confronted the playtesters.
In terms of why you were removed from playtest, eh, is because you seem to ignore the same PT conduct guideline over and over again: Please behave like mature adults when out in public. You represent both the PT Group and UWE, please act accordingly.
So far your behaviour recently has been for the lack of a better word: ######.
When competitive players stop having horrible attitudes, then we will start bringing on more; but until then. The ones that we do bring on usually are the ones we have to kick months later for either inactivity or behavioural issues.
If you have a problem as to why you were removed, eh, you are more than welcome to come speak to Obraxis or myself on this issue. Complaining in a thread about the Tourney banhammer is a poor choice.
Please refer to:
<!--quoteo(post=1999545:date=Oct 29 2012, 02:21 AM:name=Mouse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mouse @ Oct 29 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Virsoul, eh? could you take it to PM?
Your back and forth is gradually having less & less to do with the thread topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See Thread Title.
<!--quoteo(post=1999869:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't diminished the value of any situation, my comment was entirely in response to your "viva la revolucion" style post. Ryan also got banned from the tournament and was not allowed to play in the semi final. How much more would you like the bans to concern our team?
I'm not ruling out any complaints, what I'm saying is that we're nowhere near the point where it is appropriate to start discussing a boycott of UWE tournaments or any other reaction. We haven't even given the organizers a chance to post their side of the story yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Implying that I've recommend a boycott when I've stated exactly the opposite twice.
<!--quoteo(post=1999869:date=Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Oct 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1999869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it goes without saying that just about everyone in this thread, including me, disagrees with all of the bans made in this tournament -- at least as far as they have been portrayed in this thread. I don't know anything about what prompted the ban of All-In, but I certainly agree that from what has been posted in this thread, it seems unwarranted and should be overturned as soon as possible.
To be entirely precise: I expect the bans to either be in some way justified, or overturned. My experience is that the guys organizing these events are simply trying to do their best to make good events, and if they make mistakes they try to rectify them. If they don't this time, then it's obvious that something has to happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be entirely precise, no one expected the bans, any of them, to happen in the first place. While you may not appreciate the way I'm presenting my opinion, your suggestion is nothing more than "wait-and-see." And, as has been pointed out by others, that didn't exactly work out the way anyone hoped it would.
How about this Fanatic. If you don't like the way I'm presenting myself, why not try to address your own opinions in a different fashion, while at the same time either ignoring mine or at the very least doing me the kindness of not directing your objections directly to me in such a way as you end up putting words in my mouth.
This is the last I'm responding to you on this, as Mouse will undoubtedly (and very rightly) need to step in otherwise, and no one benefits from either of our verbal engagements.
You don't think that, perhaps, when almost the entirety of a large group of players who are extremely dedicated to promoting and improving the game have either left or been kicked (some for apparently frivolous reasons, which you and obraxis have yet to clarify other than in vaguely general terms), the problem might not be with the players, but the system?
Here's the funny part, Wasabi did that very tasteful joke in the official stream when they casted one of our matches. While I assume he didn't mean any bad by it, and I didn't take them as bad the first few thousand times, it gets old very fast, which is why I complained at some point, specially when 90% of the time they come from the PT lead telling people they represent UWE.
Most importantly, I liked the part where I got more racial jokes in response to my initial complaint, real mature.
I don't attend PTs anymore and only address map issues so it has obviously not come up again since then.
"Nice admin abuse"
"Nice admin abuse"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incoming ban and removal from Squad 5
Whats the point in building hbz a clog prison and torturing a marine for information with parasite if we cant all laugh about it :D dont the people streaming the competition enjoy laughing at stuff like this? dont the casters enjoy it as well? i know ive had blind hugh and wasabi chukling on the stream a few times!
And.... we all know the difference between completely harmless ammusing banter and things going over the line.... i would have known not to comment on hitreg, it seems rather obvious to me lol.
call me mad, but i dont see the problem with this rule??? i mean, they have allways let me say whatever the hell i want, when im clearly not going over the line.... and the only time i can see that this rule is being inforced.... i kinda agee that it was questionable...
I mean you dont catch me even talking to exertus on the stream for these tourny, cause much as i love and lol at the drama, i dont want people taking it the wrong way, i can tell its possibly inappropriate, might lead to an escalation, and i keep my chaffin gob shut.
Tournament admins should be able to change the rules whenever they want, to whatever they want, we should let them, and they should pay us back by allways being fair.... i kinda feel that in the end, after appeals, a fair result was reached on this issue... so cant really see the problem ??
All-In being banned from all future UWE events and Ryan not being allowed to play in the semi final seems like a fair result to you?