We should define some basic design goals, imo the main ones would be :
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0) 2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0) 3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes. 4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter). 5) Mass lerk strategy should be marginally effective.
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?
I think the lerk should 3 bite kill vanilla marine, or 2 bite + spikes, to be at least as good as a skulk.
It should also kill a rifle marine with spikes in 1v1, assuming perfect aim on both ends (so spikes out-dps the rifle).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> not necessarily imo. if you rely on this goal, the lerk will never be that much different from the skulk if you compare them all the time. it doesn't apply for the gorge either does it? imo the lerk is more about map control by supporting your team or by dealing more damage overall, e.g. you can fly in, bite 3 different(!) marines and retreat. you don't have to "beat" them as in killing them, you can easily make them retreat instead. same goes for spore clouds which can block marine movement and deal massive amounts of damage without you even being present. let's not forget the support by spore-cover and umbra either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Mass lerk strategy should be marginally effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> same here. a good example is marines going all exo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the lerk should 3 bite kill vanilla marine, or 2 bite + spikes, to be at least as good as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the point of the bite is to poison the marine over time, not to be a very good 1v1 assassin (if you want that, save for fade imo).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> at w0, you need 2 shotgun-blasts for a lerk and 1 blast when upgraded (if EVERY single pellet hits). with carapace, it is impossible to one-shot a lerk unless he has taken some damage before.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should also kill a rifle marine with spikes in 1v1, assuming perfect aim on both ends (so spikes out-dps the rifle).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you need 0.7215s (14 bullets) to 1.4985s (28 bullets) of constant rifle-fire to kill a lerk, depending on carapace and weapon upgrades. i don't know the firerate for spikes, but you need 15 to 32 spikes to kill a marine, depending on armor upgrades and your distance. i guess a marine would usually win, but i'd say lerks can dodge much more easily than marines can.
By "better than a skulk" I don't mean that is should better in all aspects, but that you can be at least as useful to the team as a lerk than as a skulk, otherwise nobody will play the lerk (like now). This give some lower bound for the lerk efficiency.
The "marginally effective" mass lerk strategy means that mass lerk should win game only so much (30% of the games), to avoid mass lerking all games, like we had at some point in the beta. This give some upper bound for the lerk efficiency.
Now hopefully there is some space between this lower and upper bound, although the resource system makes it pretty narrow.
I also assume that poison bite failed and will be removed eventually. While I agree the lerks shouldn't be a killing machine, you still need to be able to kill at some point.
I happened to experience a really fun, but obviously game breaking bug yesterday while play skulk. I had celerity leap and carapace on, and as I jump off a wall then onto some stairs and after jumping off those stairs, my speed was multiplied by like a thousand times at least....
I was able to move from one side of cargo to another in less than a second, and it was nearly impossible to steer or navigate by how fast I was moving. I only finally died when I got stuck and some marine took advantage of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1981320:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:13 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Sep 21 2012, 08:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thanks for the precisions.
By "better than a skulk" I don't mean that is should better in all aspects, but that you can be at least as useful to the team as a lerk than as a skulk, otherwise nobody will play the lerk (like now). This give some lower bound for the lerk efficiency.
The "marginally effective" mass lerk strategy means that mass lerk should win game only so much (30% of the games), to avoid mass lerking all games, like we had at some point in the beta. This give some upper bound for the lerk efficiency.
Now hopefully there is some space between this lower and upper bound, although the resource system makes it pretty narrow.
I also assume that poison bite failed and will be removed eventually. While I agree the lerks shouldn't be a killing machine, you still need to be able to kill at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a game on tram last night with Kenman the lerk, and let me tell you, he singlehandedly pissed off us marines in Elevator. He was constantly spiking us and things in Elevator at first, and once he got spore, he just blocked all of our abilities to see and did damage as skulks entered his trail and cleaned us out.
<!--quoteo(post=1981354:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:25 PM:name=rad4Christ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rad4Christ @ Sep 21 2012, 05:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played a game on tram last night with Kenman the lerk, and let me tell you, he singlehandedly pissed off us marines in Elevator. He was constantly spiking us and things in Elevator at first, and once he got spore, he just blocked all of our abilities to see and did damage as skulks entered his trail and cleaned us out.
The lerk in good hands is MUY effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks do so laughable damage to both players and structures that you can mostly ignore it anyways, and if they try to keep firing their spikes to do something, they die very quickly. I mostly feel like im downgrading my effectiveness by getting a lerk, both in combat and general utility. Definitely not worth using 30 pres on it, instead of just waiting a bit and getting a fade.
<!--quoteo(post=1981266:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:43 AM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Sep 21 2012, 09:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead, make the bite a little faster. And lerk should have the power he needs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We are speeding up the bite ROF as well. <!--quoteo(post=1981142:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:52 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 21 2012, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2? I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Normally I wouldn't respond to such nonsense, but I have seen this sentiment echoed a lot. Blaming the PTs for things in the game you don't like.
The PTs primary role is to help us track down and squash bugs in the game. But beyond that they of course make gameplay and balance suggestions, and their opinions do matter to us a lot. However, they are just as likely to hate a change that still makes it into the public release as they are to suggest something that we add in. So, chances are you should be thanking them for more things in the game that you like then hurling rude comments at them for things that you feel aren't working.
We take in PT feedback the same way we take in community feedback. Think of Charlie like the president of the United States, listening to all this conflicting input from various advisors, seeing how it fits into his goals for the direction he wants to take things, and making a final judgement call based on what he feels is the right thing to try out. He takes all the blame for the things that don't work out, and doesn't get much credit for the things that do.
Which is fine, comes with the job. Just don't go blaming the people who spend all their free time tirelessly helping us get this game in shape, without being paid. And if you really think SabaHell (SabaLerk) is the one to blame for a speed nerf for the Lerk, well, you just crazy, son.
<!--quoteo(post=1981382:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:37 PM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Sep 21 2012, 05:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->their free time tirelessly helping us get this game in shape, without being paid. And if you really think SabaHell (SabaLerk) is the one to blame for a speed nerf for the Lerk, well, you just crazy, son. --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there's little signal and lots of noise people will invent all kinds of theories.
<!--quoteo(post=1981354:date=Sep 21 2012, 09:25 AM:name=rad4Christ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rad4Christ @ Sep 21 2012, 09:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981354"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played a game on tram last night with Kenman the lerk, and let me tell you, he singlehandedly pissed off us marines in Elevator. He was constantly spiking us and things in Elevator at first, and once he got spore, he just blocked all of our abilities to see and did damage as skulks entered his trail and cleaned us out.
The lerk in good hands is MUY effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1981381:date=Sep 21 2012, 08:32 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 21 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ITT Morons overreact to the singular word "slower" and go ape ###### crazy and start flinging poo at one another.
Slower and tougher is good, I approve. It supports more spiking and ambush hit and runs. Focusing on speed just makes the Lerk a skulk with wings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You obviously don't play lerk that much, and i'm betting doubly so, competitively.
Just so everyone knows, what Cory says is accurate, and in fact the 14 page lerk thread and it's suggestions looks very similar to our internal thread, feedback wise. I am definitely one of those PTs who "hates" this change (more like really upset for the first time) that is the opposite of the given feedback.. but its UWE's game and they're close to release, so here's looking at post 1.0 (and a Lerk mod that should be done by today) for the "Save the lerk" campaign Saba and i will be going on. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1981453:date=Sep 21 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Sep 21 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who gives two ###### about competitive play? Boohoo please balance my game around the sub 1%. Get a clue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Save south africa some internets and please stop posting on this forum.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
It feels a little like we are heading back to the days where Fade Mod was almost a requirement, but now with Skulks and Lerks. This close to release that is not ideal.
You have a stunning game UWE, with absolutely fantastic potential for crazily fun games and exciting gameplay. I really hope you can put it together for release!
<!--quoteo(post=1981458:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:40 PM:name=Skuggan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skuggan @ Sep 21 2012, 01:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Save south africa some internets and please stop posting on this forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think he hit the nail on the head. Listening to the competitive players and catering to the %1 is pretty much what ruined NS1 for me. (and the abomination that was NS:Combat)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It feels a little like we are heading back to the days where Fade Mod was almost a requirement, but now with Skulks and Lerks. This close to release that is not ideal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why does everyone keep forgetting about the gorge? Skulks and lerks aren't the only classes that are pretty ###### to play. Heck, even the onos is in a pretty bad spot currently. I would even dare say the fade is the ONLY class that is on level. (Which of course makes it look OP by comparison to every other alien class, and only furthers the perception of fade dominance)
<!--quoteo(post=1981474:date=Sep 21 2012, 07:58 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Sep 21 2012, 07:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981474"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why does everyone keep forgetting about the gorge? Skulks and lerks aren't the only classes that are pretty ###### to play. Heck, even the onos is in a pretty bad spot currently. I would even dare say the fade is the ONLY class that is on level. (Which of course makes it look OP by comparison to every other alien class, and only furthers the perception of fade dominance)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because trying to fix all the classes at once by introducing a myriad of changes to all of them could prove tricky from a consistency perspective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just fixed a problem where skulk bites weren't registering when a marine is clearly in your sights and close to you<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I knew there was something wrong, great <b>punch into the face</b> of the *insert free swearword* people who said everything is just fine!
sorry, i was one of those i guess, because i was still able to kill marines at a reasonable rate and thinking it'd just take some time to get used to the change as it is not the first of this kind. but yea, this explains the massive amount of complaining :)
<!--quoteo(post=1981473:date=Sep 21 2012, 01:57 PM:name=The_Thing)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The_Thing @ Sep 21 2012, 01:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981473"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually, I think he hit the nail on the head. Listening to the competitive players and catering to the %1 is pretty much what ruined NS1 for me. (and the abomination that was NS:Combat)
~The Thing, still dreams about NS 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have a bad memory, 1.04 was completely lopsided with jp/hmg rushes. it was fun for a while, but if 1.04 had continued for longer, it would have worn out its welcome incredibly quickly.
<!--quoteo(post=1981529:date=Sep 21 2012, 04:02 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Sep 21 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you have a bad memory, 1.04 was completely lopsided with jp/hmg rushes. it was fun for a while, but if 1.04 had continued for longer, it would have worn out its welcome incredibly quickly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.04 had its problems, but it also had the remarkable flexibility to balance lopsided JP/HMG rushes against 4 hour long grudge matches where both teams vied for control across the entire map.
It certainly wasn't some golden age of Natural Selection game play, but like wise there was a very vocal group of players (many of whom were in the competitive community) who greatly disapproved of the changes that came after 1.04, and saw many of them as attempts to fix things that weren't actually broken to begin with.
Thats what's really being talked about here. Changes to the game are entirely at the discression of UWE, certainly. But are they trying to fix something that wasn't broken?
Some days I miss the actual Veteran program, and not the "hey you're in a team, welcome to the Vet Program"... It was nice to have a collection of people who knew the game very well and had very good ideas of how the game could be bettered for both Pub and Competitive play. Oh well, sadness. :(
<!--quoteo(post=1981550:date=Sep 21 2012, 04:56 PM:name=Syknik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Syknik @ Sep 21 2012, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some days I miss the actual Veteran program, and not the "hey you're in a team, welcome to the Vet Program"... It was nice to have a collection of people who knew the game very well and had very good ideas of how the game could be bettered for both Pub and Competitive play. Oh well, sadness. :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1981557:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:05 PM:name=RedDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedDragon @ Sep 21 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed. :-/<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Vet program was a mess, and anyone who thinks the 2.0 beta was successful is crazy. 2.0 was almost a disaster and the game only started improving once someone started ignoring most of the arguments, suggestions and bickering in the forum.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Our release window is October, we have not yet picked a specific date (But will do so soon!)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1981563:date=Sep 21 2012, 05:22 PM:name=noncomposmentis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noncomposmentis @ Sep 21 2012, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Vet program was a mess, and anyone who thinks the 2.0 beta was successful is crazy. 2.0 was almost a disaster and the game only started improving once someone started ignoring most of the arguments, suggestions and bickering in the forum.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a disaster becuase there was a large portion of us that went largely ignored. Many of us actually made the argument at the time that catering to a vocal minority on the forums was a terrible idea.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just fixed a problem where skulk bites weren't registering when a marine is clearly in your sights and close to you. about 4 hours ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?...
Comments
1) A lerk should be better than a skulk (30 res vs 0)
2) A lerk should beat a vanilla marine more than often (30 res vs 0)
3) A lerk should have enough energy to perform usual actions (engage 1-2 marines) and fly away, with some margin for small mistakes.
4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).
5) Mass lerk strategy should be marginally effective.
I think 3) is mainly fine now I think. I'm not sure about the other ones. Can you get one shotted by a shotgun? Do spikes out-dps rifles ? How does lerk bite dps compare to the skulk ?
I think the lerk should 3 bite kill vanilla marine, or 2 bite + spikes, to be at least as good as a skulk.
It should also kill a rifle marine with spikes in 1v1, assuming perfect aim on both ends (so spikes out-dps the rifle).
not necessarily imo. if you rely on this goal, the lerk will never be that much different from the skulk if you compare them all the time. it doesn't apply for the gorge either does it? imo the lerk is more about map control by supporting your team or by dealing more damage overall, e.g. you can fly in, bite 3 different(!) marines and retreat. you don't have to "beat" them as in killing them, you can easily make them retreat instead. same goes for spore clouds which can block marine movement and deal massive amounts of damage without you even being present. let's not forget the support by spore-cover and umbra either.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5) Mass lerk strategy should be marginally effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
same here. a good example is marines going all exo.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the lerk should 3 bite kill vanilla marine, or 2 bite + spikes, to be at least as good as a skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the point of the bite is to poison the marine over time, not to be a very good 1v1 assassin (if you want that, save for fade imo).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4) A lerk shouldn't be one shotted by a shotgun (no hard counter).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
at w0, you need 2 shotgun-blasts for a lerk and 1 blast when upgraded (if EVERY single pellet hits). with carapace, it is impossible to one-shot a lerk unless he has taken some damage before.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It should also kill a rifle marine with spikes in 1v1, assuming perfect aim on both ends (so spikes out-dps the rifle).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you need 0.7215s (14 bullets) to 1.4985s (28 bullets) of constant rifle-fire to kill a lerk, depending on carapace and weapon upgrades.
i don't know the firerate for spikes, but you need 15 to 32 spikes to kill a marine, depending on armor upgrades and your distance.
i guess a marine would usually win, but i'd say lerks can dodge much more easily than marines can.
By "better than a skulk" I don't mean that is should better in all aspects, but that you can be at least as useful to the team as a lerk than as a skulk, otherwise nobody will play the lerk (like now). This give some lower bound for the lerk efficiency.
The "marginally effective" mass lerk strategy means that mass lerk should win game only so much (30% of the games), to avoid mass lerking all games, like we had at some point in the beta. This give some upper bound for the lerk efficiency.
Now hopefully there is some space between this lower and upper bound, although the resource system makes it pretty narrow.
I also assume that poison bite failed and will be removed eventually. While I agree the lerks shouldn't be a killing machine, you still need to be able to kill at some point.
I was able to move from one side of cargo to another in less than a second, and it was nearly impossible to steer or navigate by how fast I was moving. I only finally died when I got stuck and some marine took advantage of it.
By "better than a skulk" I don't mean that is should better in all aspects, but that you can be at least as useful to the team as a lerk than as a skulk, otherwise nobody will play the lerk (like now). This give some lower bound for the lerk efficiency.
The "marginally effective" mass lerk strategy means that mass lerk should win game only so much (30% of the games), to avoid mass lerking all games, like we had at some point in the beta. This give some upper bound for the lerk efficiency.
Now hopefully there is some space between this lower and upper bound, although the resource system makes it pretty narrow.
I also assume that poison bite failed and will be removed eventually. While I agree the lerks shouldn't be a killing machine, you still need to be able to kill at some point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played a game on tram last night with Kenman the lerk, and let me tell you, he singlehandedly pissed off us marines in Elevator. He was constantly spiking us and things in Elevator at first, and once he got spore, he just blocked all of our abilities to see and did damage as skulks entered his trail and cleaned us out.
The lerk in good hands is MUY effective.
The lerk in good hands is MUY effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks do so laughable damage to both players and structures that you can mostly ignore it anyways, and if they try to keep firing their spikes to do something, they die very quickly. I mostly feel like im downgrading my effectiveness by getting a lerk, both in combat and general utility. Definitely not worth using 30 pres on it, instead of just waiting a bit and getting a fade.
Morons overreact to the singular word "slower" and go ape ###### crazy and start flinging poo at one another.
Slower and tougher is good, I approve. It supports more spiking and ambush hit and runs. Focusing on speed just makes the Lerk a skulk with wings.
We are speeding up the bite ROF as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1981142:date=Sep 21 2012, 02:52 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Sep 21 2012, 02:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1981142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->can I just publicly thank you for ruining the lerk in ns2?
I feel it's about time..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Normally I wouldn't respond to such nonsense, but I have seen this sentiment echoed a lot. Blaming the PTs for things in the game you don't like.
The PTs primary role is to help us track down and squash bugs in the game. But beyond that they of course make gameplay and balance suggestions, and their opinions do matter to us a lot. However, they are just as likely to hate a change that still makes it into the public release as they are to suggest something that we add in. So, chances are you should be thanking them for more things in the game that you like then hurling rude comments at them for things that you feel aren't working.
We take in PT feedback the same way we take in community feedback. Think of Charlie like the president of the United States, listening to all this conflicting input from various advisors, seeing how it fits into his goals for the direction he wants to take things, and making a final judgement call based on what he feels is the right thing to try out. He takes all the blame for the things that don't work out, and doesn't get much credit for the things that do.
Which is fine, comes with the job. Just don't go blaming the people who spend all their free time tirelessly helping us get this game in shape, without being paid. And if you really think SabaHell (SabaLerk) is the one to blame for a speed nerf for the Lerk, well, you just crazy, son.
--Cory
--Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there's little signal and lots of noise people will invent all kinds of theories.
The lerk in good hands is MUY effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OH YEAH!@!!!
Morons overreact to the singular word "slower" and go ape ###### crazy and start flinging poo at one another.
Slower and tougher is good, I approve. It supports more spiking and ambush hit and runs. Focusing on speed just makes the Lerk a skulk with wings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously don't play lerk that much, and i'm betting doubly so, competitively.
Just so everyone knows, what Cory says is accurate, and in fact the 14 page lerk thread and it's suggestions looks very similar to our internal thread, feedback wise.
I am definitely one of those PTs who "hates" this change (more like really upset for the first time) that is the opposite of the given feedback.. but its UWE's game and they're close to release, so here's looking at post 1.0 (and a Lerk mod that should be done by today) for the "Save the lerk" campaign Saba and i will be going on. :)
Play nice. There is no need to be so confontational
-- Mouse<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Save south africa some internets and please stop posting on this forum.
You have a stunning game UWE, with absolutely fantastic potential for crazily fun games and exciting gameplay. I really hope you can put it together for release!
Actually, I think he hit the nail on the head. Listening to the competitive players and catering to the %1 is pretty much what ruined NS1 for me. (and the abomination that was NS:Combat)
~The Thing, still dreams about NS 1.04.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about the gorge? Skulks and lerks aren't the only classes that are pretty ###### to play. Heck, even the onos is in a pretty bad spot currently. I would even dare say the fade is the ONLY class that is on level. (Which of course makes it look OP by comparison to every other alien class, and only furthers the perception of fade dominance)
Because trying to fix all the classes at once by introducing a myriad of changes to all of them could prove tricky from a consistency perspective.
I knew there was something wrong, great <b>punch into the face</b> of the *insert free swearword* people who said everything is just fine!
but yea, this explains the massive amount of complaining :)
~The Thing, still dreams about NS 1.04.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you have a bad memory, 1.04 was completely lopsided with jp/hmg rushes. it was fun for a while, but if 1.04 had continued for longer, it would have worn out its welcome incredibly quickly.
1.04 had its problems, but it also had the remarkable flexibility to balance lopsided JP/HMG rushes against 4 hour long grudge matches where both teams vied for control across the entire map.
It certainly wasn't some golden age of Natural Selection game play, but like wise there was a very vocal group of players (many of whom were in the competitive community) who greatly disapproved of the changes that came after 1.04, and saw many of them as attempts to fix things that weren't actually broken to begin with.
Thats what's really being talked about here. Changes to the game are entirely at the discression of UWE, certainly. But are they trying to fix something that wasn't broken?
Indeed. :-/
The Vet program was a mess, and anyone who thinks the 2.0 beta was successful is crazy. 2.0 was almost a disaster and the game only started improving once someone started ignoring most of the arguments, suggestions and bickering in the forum.
You better release it on October 31! :P
It was a disaster becuase there was a large portion of us that went largely ignored. Many of us actually made the argument at the time that catering to a vocal minority on the forums was a terrible idea.
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reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally?...