<!--quoteo(post=1959327:date=Aug 8 2012, 04:02 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 8 2012, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just want to make this point. I remember I first started playing in NS v. 2.0.
When I first came to the forum, there were <i>tons</i> of complaints about how NS had gone in the wrong direction since NS v. 1.04. And when 3.0 happened, people complained that with the fixed alien hitboxes, now the aliens were way to easy to kill. I seem to remember somebody referring to the 3.0 fade as a "paper tiger". Regardless, always complaints. It's as if the developers should never have changed anything since the very first build!
So I'm just glad to see that the community hasn't changed a bit. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1959057:date=Aug 8 2012, 08:35 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959057"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd more then happily fly to San Fran tomorrow from Aus paid out of my own pocket to sit down with Flayra and show him what is wrong....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would make a totally awesome and dramatic NS2HD video :D
That 300k figure is from Charlie I'm pretty sure that was the figure going from memory, NS1 was the 3rd most played game on steam for a while after CS and DOD..
If you look at the player counter the top hand full of games have the vast majority of players...
<!--quoteo(post=1959469:date=Aug 8 2012, 06:57 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 8 2012, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I added the poll to the first post...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, talk about a worthless poll. Can you be a little more biased.
The poll may not be made by you, but it's obvious it was created by someone who shares your opinion. The poll is loaded by its very nature - only one option is available for those who think the game is fine, while the rest basically either say the game is terrible or subpar compared to the first.
Kinda reads like this to me: 1. Ns2 is the best game that ever was and will be created by mankind. 2. Ns2 is meh. 3. Ns2 is bad. 4. Ns2 is very bad.
What might be the result of this poll?
(Its like making a post about how awesome all lucasart adventures were back in the days, and how all adventures nowadays are more or less crap compared to that - the young kids that played it today will blindly agree(im so retro baby), the ones that didnt play dont care, the ones that played one at some point and might not even have enjoyed it much will agree (my generation was the best) the ones that loved and played it back in the day will agree too - high possibility that every comment that would state that todays adventures are also very good would get stomped into ground - no matter if ppl that stomp those comments know what they are talking about or not - its very easy to just say everything was better back in the days, and its very easy to get some ppl to agree to that - no questions or discussions needed)
Also whats the point of getting this result, we already know that not everybody is 100% happy with ns2 - isnt it more beneficial for us to talk about balance and try to convince devs or at least make them understand our points, instead of circlejerking?
Polls to find out specifically what players don't like, right? That's a mixed bag. The Developer only accepts the ideas he likes and not what we all agree to like or dislike. So leave that alone and let the Developer make the choices, not us. All we can do is bring the idea to the Dev's table :)
Personally, I think NS2 is fun but despite UWE's best efforts it will never achieve the kind of competitive scene that NS1 had. NS1 had an amazing run in CAL before 'e-sports' was super popular. NS2 may be fun for a lot of people, it may be profitable for UWE, it may sustain the company for them to make a third game, but I don't think it's capable of being that 'break through' that NS1 was. NS2's development choices clearly shows NS1 benefited greatly from the unintended features of HL's engine. That fast, crisp, twitch gameplay that NS1 was known for is hardly there in NS2... which brings me to my next point...
I think the Devs have heard most/all of the arguments but I don't think they particularity care. I don't mean that in a 'devs don't listen' way, but rather they acknowledge that they're making changes not everyone will like. They feel NS2 is headed in the right direction. Even if they didn't, some of the changes suggested here are so drastic they'd require reworking of the game design and I'm betting they don't have the time.
I think UWE is dying to say "NS2 isn't NS1." They've listened to the community to implement some changes they've liked and they obviously feel that the more controversial changes are beneficial enough to outweigh and downsides.
I'd wager a good amount of NS1 players left still posting regularly were some of the more skilled NS1 players. NS2 may not be geared to these types of players.
<!--quoteo(post=1959229:date=Aug 9 2012, 03:29 AM:name=blind)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blind @ Aug 9 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the alien commander and symmetric res model seems to be most discussed change from Cory's viewpoint, I'll pick that one up.
What I find quite disappointing is that there is almost no alien lifeform strategies left for players as a result of the new res model.
In NS1 you had to put roles amongst your team, fast lerk, fast fade, hive/2nd fade, chambers, rts etc. In NS2 the tactics go like "1 gorge, 1 lerk, rest save for fade/onos" for example. This ends up with a long gameplay with skulks, entering the midgame with a lerk, and suddenly 3-4 fades popup in the later game. Unless marines overpower you. Like 90% of all lost alien rounds I played so far we didn't even get to fades since the game went bad and we F4'ed at the 10 min mark or so - without any fade ever entering the battle field. Even when absolutely getting dominated in NS1, you almost always at least got the fade out.
Those roles and strategies about it were heavily important, as it was important to listen to your captain on what to do with your res. In NS2 gathers you don't even need to listen as long as you aren't chosen to be the gorge. Just look at the minimap, do the usual teamwork thingy and when you hit 50 res go fade. I won't start putting examples of what you had to diverse in NS1 with the res managment, coming with all the strategic thinking behind, because I could write books about it. Now it's just the kham and the lifeforms. And the kham role seems to be pretty boring besides.
Alot of lost depth in strategies imo. Although it has positive features, too, of course. I like buying a weapon on my own now, even when I hated it at start. And it's not always the same people chosen for the carry roles (SG/lerk/fade) as it turned out in NS1 competitive. And you don't need to yell in pubs because everyone is res whoring while sitting on 1 rt. I don't even know how I'd have decided as responsible game designer in this, so I do respect the decision UWE made. So much for the over-criticized alien comm and symmetrical res models.
But that's just one observation, there is many more. To answer the thread opener, I have to say yes and no. I feel NS1 was way more fluent and fun to play (MOVEMENTS: I feel sooo slow and clumsy now!) than NS2, but I see where many changes come from. If they end up in a higher player base and an very active competitive community I shall be happy. And it's not like I don't have fun playing NS2 - I prefer it over any other multiplayer FPS (except NS1), so it can't be so bad at all, can it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a really good comment.
My 2c -
Is it possible there are different, but equally complex strategic choices created by the NS2 game design, but we don't know about them yet because:
a) performance and movement problems muddy everything b) there hasn't been enough high-level competitive play yet for the best strategies to emerge?
Even if that is totally wrong, there is this: NS2 is a commercial game, and UWE has responsibilities to investors etc. It has to choose a better pub experience over a better competitive experience when they conflict, because pub players and their dollars outnumber competitive players and their dollars by a lot. Number 1 example is the res model stuff in your post - less competitive depth, but less pub drama, more tolerant of new or bad pub players, and balanced over a wider range of player counts.
UWE seem to be banking on some of the big changes bringing in more new people than the NS1 players they scare off (or scaring off less new players than the NS1 mechanics scared off - NS1 was well known for being unforgiving to new players, I made my team lose the first game I played - "sensory chamber, that sounds cool, I'll build one"). Many people think UWE are wrong. These people might be correct, but UWE aren't going to change it at this late point.
<!--quoteo(post=1959512:date=Aug 9 2012, 12:22 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Aug 9 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959512"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I think NS2 is fun but despite UWE's best efforts it will never achieve the kind of competitive scene that NS1 had. NS1 had an amazing run in CAL before 'e-sports' was super popular. NS2 may be fun for a lot of people, it may be profitable for UWE, it may sustain the company for them to make a third game, but I don't think it's capable of being that 'break through' that NS1 was. NS2's development choices clearly shows NS1 benefited greatly from the unintended features of HL's engine. That fast, crisp, twitch gameplay that NS1 was known for is hardly there in NS2... which brings me to my next point...
I think the Devs have heard most/all of the arguments but I don't think they particularity care. I don't mean that in a 'devs don't listen' way, but rather they acknowledge that they're making changes not everyone will like. They feel NS2 is headed in the right direction. Even if they didn't, some of the changes suggested here are so drastic they'd require reworking of the game design and I'm betting they don't have the time.
I think UWE is dying to say "NS2 isn't NS1." They've listened to the community to implement some changes they've liked and they obviously feel that the more controversial changes are beneficial enough to outweigh and downsides.
I'd wager a good amount of NS1 players left still posting regularly were some of the more skilled NS1 players. NS2 may not be geared to these types of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good point..
But the questioned begged to be asked is why??? NS1 was a great game so why??
CS:S was a good example of taking a much loved franchise and modernizing it and it was obviously successful, perhaps they needed to study that more...
<!--quoteo(post=1959527:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:20 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 01:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959527"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS:S was a good example of taking a much loved franchise and modernizing it and it was obviously successful, perhaps they needed to study that more...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS didn't have a core mechanic that changed the game balance depending on the playercount. NS1 was only balanced around 6v6.
CS had a high skill ceiling but fairly simple mechanics. NS1 was complex enough to scare away a lot of new players (or at least the devs think so)
Pretty much all the unpopular gameplay changes trace back to those 2 issues.
<!--quoteo(post=1959532:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS didn't have a core mechanic that changed the game balance depending on the playercount. NS1 was only balanced around 6v6.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't a simpler solution to what we have now is to just scale the resource from extractors/harvesters based on player count? Players also joined servers knowing what the player cap was so it was a choice....
<!--quoteo(post=1959532:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS had a high skill ceiling but fairly simple mechanics. NS1 was complex enough to scare away a lot of new players (or at least the devs think so)
Pretty much all the unpopular gameplay changes trace back to those 2 issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say a large part of the appeal to NS1 was that complexity and sandbox feel...
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
<!--quoteo(post=1959548:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:20 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't a simpler solution to what we have now is to just scale the resource from extractors/harvesters based on player count? Players also joined servers knowing what the player cap was so it was a choice....
I'd say a large part of the appeal to NS1 was that complexity and sandbox feel...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have to agree with you there kabab. I never understood why ns1 didn't ever implement a resource rate scale depending on player counts.
And yes the sandbox feel was a big draw card for me, I could live with the fact that commchairs/hives have set locations in ns2 if the IP placement radius was increased.
I have to agree, ns1 was way more sandbox. NS2 isn't bad, but its not what i expected :( Don't get me wrong, i love the effects and the efford they put in, but it's (right now) not like Ns1 was/feel. Maybe its because the engine isn't polished yet and the most good alienskills are not in. But the community can do a Ns1 remake.
<!--quoteo(post=1959548:date=Aug 9 2012, 05:20 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wouldn't a simpler solution to what we have now is to just scale the resource from extractors/harvesters based on player count? Players also joined servers knowing what the player cap was so it was a choice....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was in 1.00, IIRC, and it was broke as hell. See, the marine respool works fine at all playercounts, because even though you have more/less weapons per player you can build structures just the same, whereas alien income slowed right down, so they didn't even get enough res to go fade/hive2 before marines had a2 w2 phasetech etc.
So you might want to only scale the alien income, but then that means they have more stuff total, so you'd have 3 fades instead of 1, fighting 4 LMG/1 shotgun marines, instead of 1/1 - and the fades will win that one, because holy ###### 3 fades...
NS1 was either 6x6 clan matches or 12x12 servers the vast majority from memory.. Couldn't you just have a server mode small/large which would have 2 settings for resources appropriate for a small or large game?
<!--quoteo(post=1959646:date=Aug 9 2012, 12:44 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2012, 12:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959646"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you might want to only scale the alien income, but then that means they have more stuff total, so you'd have 3 fades instead of 1, fighting 4 LMG/1 shotgun marines, instead of 1/1 - and the fades will win that one, because holy ###### 3 fades...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pres does that right now and its a much bigger problem than the ns1 resmodel ever was imo. With more players so many things change that the resource model feels like a pretty small thing to me.
As an NS1 player, who got years more enjoyment out of a "free" game than anything else I can think of (perhaps the original Elite game was a close contender - I got to "Deadly"), I didn't really care how NS2 came out - I bought the Special Edition as a "thank you" for the original NS1, and if I get another "free" game that comes anywhere near as exciting, scary, playable, varied, and long-lived as the original, it's an absolute bloody bargain !
As for the poll, yes, I'm very satisfied with the results - it's already more immersive and enjoyable than (probably) any other game I've bought - sure, it's still a work in progress, but it's looking incredible, and plays about the same :-)
<!--quoteo(post=1959655:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:40 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 9 2012, 11:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959655"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pres does that right now and its a much bigger problem than the ns1 resmodel ever was imo. With more players so many things change that the resource model feels like a pretty small thing to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not exactly, since the 4 LMG marines can have 4 shotguns instead with no real penalty (in NS1 that would've seriously cost you strategically), but yeah, a new res system brings new more different problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1959653:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:33 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay how about simple solution #2...
NS1 was either 6x6 clan matches or 12x12 servers the vast majority from memory.. Couldn't you just have a server mode small/large which would have 2 settings for resources appropriate for a small or large game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it? It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".
<!--quoteo(post=1959672:date=Aug 9 2012, 09:22 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2012, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not exactly, since the 4 LMG marines can have 4 shotguns instead with no real penalty (in NS1 that would've seriously cost you strategically), but yeah, a new res system brings new more different problems.
<i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it? It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It wouldn't be that hard just like Left4Dead 2 has various game modes NS2 could of had 2 game modes as well competitive (6x6) / casual (12x12) that would actually allow them to really make the game e-sport friendly whilst also new player friendly to...
I noticed I slowly get more and more mad every time I die in NS2. Never happened in NS1 even when I used to suck. I kind of dislike this game now for making me rage in a game. I've never played any MP FPS beside the NS series though :D
<!--quoteo(post=1959695:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:29 PM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959695"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It wouldn't be that hard just like Left4Dead 2 has various game modes NS2 could of had 2 game modes as well competitive (6x6) / casual (12x12) that would actually allow them to really make the game e-sport friendly whilst also new player friendly to...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But we can already see playercounts for servers...
Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1959736:date=Aug 9 2012, 10:31 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2012, 10:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A wise decision. Now the devs don't have to worry about balancing two different games and the community can be united around one main game mode.
<!--quoteo(post=1959672:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:22 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2012, 11:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959672"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not exactly, since the 4 LMG marines can have 4 shotguns instead with no real penalty (in NS1 that would've seriously cost you strategically), but yeah, a new res system brings new more different problems.
<i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it? It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like what Kabab is saying. Why not balance the game twice. One for 6x6 and one for 12x12 or even balance it towards 10x10 since the difference of 4 players would be noticeable but not game breaking like 6x6 compared to 12x12.
This would also allow you some leeway in fine tuning pub play and comp play with little effort and no competitive mod. I don't know, im not a modder or statistician, but this looks like it would have been a lot better and easier than starting fresh with the current res model.
<!--quoteo(post=1959738:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A wise decision. Now the devs don't have to worry about balancing two different games and the community can be united around one main game mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to disagree strongly. What he did is combine CO and NS. The Co community still wants their run and gun mod (which they will get) and the NS Classic lovers are screwed... Dumb down CO and leave NS Classic the hell alone.
SecurityJoin Date: 2005-01-07Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1959736:date=Aug 9 2012, 04:31 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 9 2012, 04:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959736"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If so, I don't think it worked too good.
It's impossible to make everyone happy, which is why separate Combat / Classic modes were such a good thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1959738:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A wise decision. Now the devs don't have to worry about balancing two different games and the community can be united around one main game mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
we told charlie long ago about having two different game modes in the game. Charlie reply? He told us he wanted to combine combat and classic mode into single play style, hence today's gameplay design we see. Was he right doing this? you be the judge.
I personally went against this idea, so did many others but our voices didn't really matter. classic mode was completely ruined, game play design was actually dumbed-down with all these combat ideas. Some love it, some hate and others don't care anymore - that's about it.
"Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again."
And you take huge risk on ruining the actual game by injecting bad ideas into classic design.
Comments
I remember I first started playing in NS v. 2.0.
When I first came to the forum, there were <i>tons</i> of complaints about how NS had gone in the wrong direction since NS v. 1.04. And when 3.0 happened, people complained that with the fixed alien hitboxes, now the aliens were way to easy to kill. I seem to remember somebody referring to the 3.0 fade as a "paper tiger". Regardless, always complaints. It's as if the developers should never have changed anything since the very first build!
So I'm just glad to see that the community hasn't changed a bit. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah but jp/hmg rushes were SUPER FUN
This would make a totally awesome and dramatic NS2HD video :D
That 300k figure is from Charlie I'm pretty sure that was the figure going from memory, NS1 was the 3rd most played game on steam for a while after CS and DOD..
If you look at the player counter the top hand full of games have the vast majority of players...
Wow, talk about a worthless poll. Can you be a little more biased.
Check your facts before you attack me :)
Figured with all your posts being against the way NS2 is going that a poll like that would have been created by you.
<a href="http://poll.pollcode.com/m8w9" target="_blank">http://poll.pollcode.com/m8w9</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do like the idea of a poll like that. The results would be interesting.
However, it should be on this forum, so registration is required to participate. (And unfortunaly only mods are able to create vote threads here.)
This one is extremely easy to cheat by people with dynamic IP's or by the use of proxy servers.
Kinda reads like this to me:
1. Ns2 is the best game that ever was and will be created by mankind.
2. Ns2 is meh.
3. Ns2 is bad.
4. Ns2 is very bad.
What might be the result of this poll?
(Its like making a post about how awesome all lucasart adventures were back in the days, and how all adventures nowadays are more or less crap compared to that - the young kids that played it today will blindly agree(im so retro baby), the ones that didnt play dont care, the ones that played one at some point and might not even have enjoyed it much will agree (my generation was the best) the ones that loved and played it back in the day will agree too - high possibility that every comment that would state that todays adventures are also very good would get stomped into ground - no matter if ppl that stomp those comments know what they are talking about or not - its very easy to just say everything was better back in the days, and its very easy to get some ppl to agree to that - no questions or discussions needed)
Also whats the point of getting this result, we already know that not everybody is 100% happy with ns2 - isnt it more beneficial for us to talk about balance and try to convince devs or at least make them understand our points, instead of circlejerking?
Nintendo Sixty-FOOOOOOOOOOUR
I think the Devs have heard most/all of the arguments but I don't think they particularity care. I don't mean that in a 'devs don't listen' way, but rather they acknowledge that they're making changes not everyone will like. They feel NS2 is headed in the right direction. Even if they didn't, some of the changes suggested here are so drastic they'd require reworking of the game design and I'm betting they don't have the time.
I think UWE is dying to say "NS2 isn't NS1." They've listened to the community to implement some changes they've liked and they obviously feel that the more controversial changes are beneficial enough to outweigh and downsides.
I'd wager a good amount of NS1 players left still posting regularly were some of the more skilled NS1 players. NS2 may not be geared to these types of players.
What I find quite disappointing is that there is almost no alien lifeform strategies left for players as a result of the new res model.
In NS1 you had to put roles amongst your team, fast lerk, fast fade, hive/2nd fade, chambers, rts etc. In NS2 the tactics go like "1 gorge, 1 lerk, rest save for fade/onos" for example. This ends up with a long gameplay with skulks, entering the midgame with a lerk, and suddenly 3-4 fades popup in the later game. Unless marines overpower you. Like 90% of all lost alien rounds I played so far we didn't even get to fades since the game went bad and we F4'ed at the 10 min mark or so - without any fade ever entering the battle field. Even when absolutely getting dominated in NS1, you almost always at least got the fade out.
Those roles and strategies about it were heavily important, as it was important to listen to your captain on what to do with your res. In NS2 gathers you don't even need to listen as long as you aren't chosen to be the gorge. Just look at the minimap, do the usual teamwork thingy and when you hit 50 res go fade. I won't start putting examples of what you had to diverse in NS1 with the res managment, coming with all the strategic thinking behind, because I could write books about it. Now it's just the kham and the lifeforms. And the kham role seems to be pretty boring besides.
Alot of lost depth in strategies imo. Although it has positive features, too, of course. I like buying a weapon on my own now, even when I hated it at start. And it's not always the same people chosen for the carry roles (SG/lerk/fade) as it turned out in NS1 competitive. And you don't need to yell in pubs because everyone is res whoring while sitting on 1 rt. I don't even know how I'd have decided as responsible game designer in this, so I do respect the decision UWE made. So much for the over-criticized alien comm and symmetrical res models.
But that's just one observation, there is many more. To answer the thread opener, I have to say yes and no. I feel NS1 was way more fluent and fun to play (MOVEMENTS: I feel sooo slow and clumsy now!) than NS2, but I see where many changes come from. If they end up in a higher player base and an very active competitive community I shall be happy. And it's not like I don't have fun playing NS2 - I prefer it over any other multiplayer FPS (except NS1), so it can't be so bad at all, can it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a really good comment.
My 2c -
Is it possible there are different, but equally complex strategic choices created by the NS2 game design, but we don't know about them yet because:
a) performance and movement problems muddy everything
b) there hasn't been enough high-level competitive play yet for the best strategies to emerge?
Even if that is totally wrong, there is this: NS2 is a commercial game, and UWE has responsibilities to investors etc. It has to choose a better pub experience over a better competitive experience when they conflict, because pub players and their dollars outnumber competitive players and their dollars by a lot. Number 1 example is the res model stuff in your post - less competitive depth, but less pub drama, more tolerant of new or bad pub players, and balanced over a wider range of player counts.
UWE seem to be banking on some of the big changes bringing in more new people than the NS1 players they scare off (or scaring off less new players than the NS1 mechanics scared off - NS1 was well known for being unforgiving to new players, I made my team lose the first game I played - "sensory chamber, that sounds cool, I'll build one"). Many people think UWE are wrong. These people might be correct, but UWE aren't going to change it at this late point.
I think the Devs have heard most/all of the arguments but I don't think they particularity care. I don't mean that in a 'devs don't listen' way, but rather they acknowledge that they're making changes not everyone will like. They feel NS2 is headed in the right direction. Even if they didn't, some of the changes suggested here are so drastic they'd require reworking of the game design and I'm betting they don't have the time.
I think UWE is dying to say "NS2 isn't NS1." They've listened to the community to implement some changes they've liked and they obviously feel that the more controversial changes are beneficial enough to outweigh and downsides.
I'd wager a good amount of NS1 players left still posting regularly were some of the more skilled NS1 players. NS2 may not be geared to these types of players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point..
But the questioned begged to be asked is why??? NS1 was a great game so why??
CS:S was a good example of taking a much loved franchise and modernizing it and it was obviously successful, perhaps they needed to study that more...
CS didn't have a core mechanic that changed the game balance depending on the playercount. NS1 was only balanced around 6v6.
CS had a high skill ceiling but fairly simple mechanics. NS1 was complex enough to scare away a lot of new players (or at least the devs think so)
Pretty much all the unpopular gameplay changes trace back to those 2 issues.
Wouldn't a simpler solution to what we have now is to just scale the resource from extractors/harvesters based on player count? Players also joined servers knowing what the player cap was so it was a choice....
<!--quoteo(post=1959532:date=Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM:name=shad3r)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shad3r @ Aug 9 2012, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959532"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CS had a high skill ceiling but fairly simple mechanics. NS1 was complex enough to scare away a lot of new players (or at least the devs think so)
Pretty much all the unpopular gameplay changes trace back to those 2 issues.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd say a large part of the appeal to NS1 was that complexity and sandbox feel...
I'd say a large part of the appeal to NS1 was that complexity and sandbox feel...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree with you there kabab. I never understood why ns1 didn't ever implement a resource rate scale depending on player counts.
And yes the sandbox feel was a big draw card for me, I could live with the fact that commchairs/hives have set locations in ns2 if the IP placement radius was increased.
NS2 isn't bad, but its not what i expected :(
Don't get me wrong, i love the effects and the efford they put in, but it's (right now) not like Ns1 was/feel.
Maybe its because the engine isn't polished yet and the most good alienskills are not in.
But the community can do a Ns1 remake.
That was in 1.00, IIRC, and it was broke as hell. See, the marine respool works fine at all playercounts, because even though you have more/less weapons per player you can build structures just the same, whereas alien income slowed right down, so they didn't even get enough res to go fade/hive2 before marines had a2 w2 phasetech etc.
So you might want to only scale the alien income, but then that means they have more stuff total, so you'd have 3 fades instead of 1, fighting 4 LMG/1 shotgun marines, instead of 1/1 - and the fades will win that one, because holy ###### 3 fades...
NS1 was either 6x6 clan matches or 12x12 servers the vast majority from memory.. Couldn't you just have a server mode small/large which would have 2 settings for resources appropriate for a small or large game?
Pres does that right now and its a much bigger problem than the ns1 resmodel ever was imo. With more players so many things change that the resource model feels like a pretty small thing to me.
As for the poll, yes, I'm very satisfied with the results - it's already more immersive and enjoyable than (probably) any other game I've bought - sure, it's still a work in progress, but it's looking incredible, and plays about the same :-)
Not exactly, since the 4 LMG marines can have 4 shotguns instead with no real penalty (in NS1 that would've seriously cost you strategically), but yeah, a new res system brings new more different problems.
<!--quoteo(post=1959653:date=Aug 9 2012, 11:33 AM:name=kabab)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kabab @ Aug 9 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Okay how about simple solution #2...
NS1 was either 6x6 clan matches or 12x12 servers the vast majority from memory.. Couldn't you just have a server mode small/large which would have 2 settings for resources appropriate for a small or large game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it?
It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".
<i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it?
It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It wouldn't be that hard just like Left4Dead 2 has various game modes NS2 could of had 2 game modes as well competitive (6x6) / casual (12x12) that would actually allow them to really make the game e-sport friendly whilst also new player friendly to...
But we can already see playercounts for servers...
Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again.
A wise decision. Now the devs don't have to worry about balancing two different games and the community can be united around one main game mode.
<i>Sounds</i> good, but how exactly would you go about it?
It's not just about the amount of resources - one fade was balanced to be equivalent to more than one marine regardless of weapon, so any solution would have to be something like "for each additional player, more res needs to be spent on buildings in order for the alien team to reach the same level of effectiveness".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like what Kabab is saying. Why not balance the game twice. One for 6x6 and one for 12x12 or even balance it towards 10x10 since the difference of 4 players would be noticeable but not game breaking like 6x6 compared to 12x12.
This would also allow you some leeway in fine tuning pub play and comp play with little effort and no competitive mod. I don't know, im not a modder or statistician, but this looks like it would have been a lot better and easier than starting fresh with the current res model.
<!--quoteo(post=1959738:date=Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Aug 9 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1959738"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A wise decision. Now the devs don't have to worry about balancing two different games and the community can be united around one main game mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tend to disagree strongly. What he did is combine CO and NS. The Co community still wants their run and gun mod (which they will get) and the NS Classic lovers are screwed... Dumb down CO and leave NS Classic the hell alone.
If so, I don't think it worked too good.
It's impossible to make everyone happy, which is why separate Combat / Classic modes were such a good thing.
we told charlie long ago about having two different game modes in the game. Charlie reply? He told us he wanted to combine combat and classic mode into single play style, hence today's gameplay design we see. Was he right doing this? you be the judge.
I personally went against this idea, so did many others but our voices didn't really matter. classic mode was completely ruined, game play design was actually dumbed-down with all these combat ideas. Some love it, some hate and others don't care anymore - that's about it.
"Come to think of it though, Flayra probably wanted to avoid splitting the community apart again."
And you take huge risk on ruining the actual game by injecting bad ideas into classic design.