Funnily enough in the dozen or so games I've played in 215, pub servers, I have seen more marine wins. I would say about 4/12.
The first of those was definitely a skill issue - the marine team just steam rolled the alien team and took every tech point, then shot the hive to death. The second was a hive rush with shotguns, and no aliens near by to defend. The third was a long, epic game, the best I've played in a long long time, with marines going in groups and taking down hives, chasing the aliens around the map as new hives popped up. Arcs came along to assist (one of the few times I saw arcs, actually). The fourth was a long game that ended with a well-coordinated series of beacon rushes.
In the other eight games, it was a mix of things, but generally it all boiled down to aliens getting 2 hives, leap, cara and regen, developing to fades and lerks and then slowly grinding down the marines. I think in only one of those 8 games did anyone bother to evolve to Onos (or get enough Res to do so).
As stated previously and in other posts - balance can't be complete, or really even fully envisioned, until the last alien abilities and the Exo + weapons are completed. I like that UWE is tweaking the numbers and messing with the abilities to alleviate the growing pains and make the game relatively playable in the interim, but it's almost better to just suck it up and accept that the game is unbalanced until getting much nearer to the finish line.
I am not convinced that it comes down to hitreg / fps as I can get huge KDR's on either team no problem. Even if my marine team has double the frags of the aliens it means nothing unless we use a very cheesy and imbalanced tactic to lock down a hive. I won't go into more details but even if you win on marines it was more than likely due to the marines exploiting yet another stupid imbalanced part of the game.
Hitreg and fps is gonna help the marines but keep in mind it's also going to help the aliens just as much. That's what people don't ###### understand.
Cry about hitreg and FPS all day but the economy and power of upgrades / the asymmetry of movement in this game is completely ###### broken. You can give me 200 fps for all I care. The other guy will have 200 fps as well and still have all his imba armor, abilities, and upgrades... not to mention he is backed by a completely ###### up economy on the aliens side.
Drop hives all day? Yeah....
Oh yeah and shade ink cloud is the most auishdaldkjasd upgrade next to feign death.
You could spam 10 whips in a hallway and put 1 shade there and NEVER lose anything... even if the other team spent 200 res on arcs... its all negated by 1 ###### shade with ink cloud that costs like 2 ###### res.
Just played some marine games... Skulks now have 50 armor with cara? This HAS to be a "bug/typo" by the devs, like many times before. Though I see them more as experiments or simply practical jokes :P Skulks are now mini-onoses and cara is even more BY FAR the most crucial upgrade. Combine that with their leap and extremely wonky movement, marines don't stand a chance. Not only that, it seems vanilla skulks have been buffed vs w0 too, and given a speed increase lately right? Fade health was buffed also? (while i'm on the topic)
Any buffs for marines? Only the nerf which makes them more likely to walk around with no armor (which i'm all for though). And the nonsensical requirement of 2 CC is pure bs.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited July 2012
The big problem is that the devs keep taking out marine possible strategies. hell even alien possible strategies these days. Marines can't hold anything? used to be able to get a few turrets to deter skulks Now, they cant even deter my breath. Can't get to a second cc? Sorry, no jetpacks.
Also weezl, the skulk cara wasn't at all a bug/typo, it has been in a few builds now. Lerks used to have 100 armor now its 75 etc, but skulks seem to still have 50, but the upgrade costs nothing? huh?
<!--quoteo(post=1954758:date=Jul 29 2012, 01:56 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jul 29 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954758"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The big problem is that the devs keep taking out marine possible strategies. hell even alien possible strategies these days. Marines can't hold anything? used to be able to get a few turrets to deter skulks Now, they cant even deter my breath. Can't get to a second cc? Sorry, no jetpacks.
Also weezl, the skulk cara wasn't at all a bug/typo, it has been in a few builds now. Lerks used to have 100 armor now its 75 etc, but skulks seem to still have 50, but the upgrade costs nothing? huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I always thought it was 10 and 30 armor like in NS1... Well, anyways, something made skulks in this build survive 1.5-2 times longer and with cara 2-3 times longer. Anybody inform me?
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
It did used to be like that, but lately its been 10 and 50. Which is in itself, a ridiculus jump especialy since the skulk is speed based, not Brut based.
I think it was a vain attempt to make skulks better in late game but if was a massive buff for early/mid game at the same time- and skulks will still die to 1 grenade in late game so.... I don't know what they expected.
<!--quoteo(post=1954785:date=Jul 29 2012, 01:31 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 29 2012, 01:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it was a vain attempt to make skulks better in late game but if was a massive buff for early/mid game at the same time- and skulks will still die to 1 grenade in late game so.... I don't know what they expected.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly i actually thought skulks with 30 cara could still pull their own weight in late game. Granted at the time walljump was more reliable/powerful and air control was higher. +1 about the point regarding grenades.
The problem i think with the high cara values is that it impacts LMG alot more than it does the other weapons... Especially those cele/cara lerks godahm o.0.
I don't know why I'm pointing out obvious but here we go...
The biggest turn off for me and for those 90% competitive players (that’s like 100 players from NS and L4D) that I know who have tried NS2 is:
1. Marine movement. 2. Poor performance. 3. And the fact that there really isn't much to train for.
I try NS2 every build, I go public server to kill some skulks with lmg. Sure it's fun like in NS as long as you keep the skulks on distance, but once skulks get close the lottery starts and I get frustrated. I could fool most of public skulks in NS1 only using strafe and crouch keys, and this way bought some more shooting time to myself in melee distance. In NS2 marines seem to just start jumping (locking themselves to predictable movement pattern) around almost randomly in order to avoid bites. Marine’s movement just feels wrong and really heavy, it doesn't allow delicate touch. I don't care about bunnyhop, glide jump or double jump; I just want freaking strafe to work like it should. I don't know what is wrong in marine movement code, but UWE might want to increase strafing speed.
Of course marine movement and poor performance goes hand to hand. But because others already covered this topic I just want to say, don't ever underestimate impact of FPS. Obviously good framerate is more important for marines than aliens, because aiming need more delicate touch than alien movement. This should be common knowledge everyone who played NS1.
You can also ask yourself what is there to learn in NS2? It has 100% similar aiming system compared to NS1, but in NS1 everything are faster and smoother. So I get better training for aiming playing NS1. Movement in overall is still very sluggish; sure there is skulk's wallhop which is unique skill to learn. I haven't probably mastered it with few hours of playing skulk but I do it better than most. After all NS1 wallhop was much harder to master. But part from skulk’s wallhop NS2 fails miserable when you value overall movement. Of course there are tactics... But it's mostly know-how information and more dynamic tactical understanding (positioning, route blocking etc.) are similar to NS1. And then fanboys shouts that NS2 in more about teamwork than twitch skills. Not really, sprint allows marines to move too fast on map and destroys alien’s chance to regroup and ambush together. Marines can move to key location on map so fast that aliens have to rush everywhere and marines can just hold positions. It should be other way around! I definitely get better teamwork practice playing L4D than NS2.
So the player who has mastered melee vs. range game and has good tactical understanding doesn't really have much to learn in NS2.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1954835:date=Jul 29 2012, 12:56 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jul 29 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sprint allows marines to move too fast on map and destroys alien’s chance to regroup and ambush together. Marines can move to key location on map so fast that aliens have to rush everywhere and marines can just hold positions. It should be other way around! I definitely get better teamwork practice playing L4D than NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.
Imo there's a few 'significant' factors of the current design implementation that favour aliens
- Early game is too short, marines don't have a whole lot of time before the second hive and lerks/fades come out. Once those lifeforms and/or second tier abilities are out, marines have a hard time competing. IMO this is because they still come out too fast. Marines need a really strong early game (first few minutes) to be able to compete tech-wise and not get completely outplayed once the strong alien midgame hits.
- Abilities like regeneration and carapace are inherently too strong and need some tweaking down. Especially in light of things like the armory change
- Fix sentries. Currently RF is no viable choice for the marine commander, at any stage of the game,, giving them absolutely NO way to play defensively the same way aliens can.
I can guarantee you that if the above were to be changed, you would see a lot more even games. (You'd still need to address various issues lategame, but I'm not going to go into detail on that now since in most games marines don't even make it that far any more)
First thing I noticed playing NS2 was how stupid it is to avoid/dodge skulks. Marines feel so heavy, I guess its because in NS1 you had 1 speed so it was a balance between walk/run (ns2). You also cannot time the jump+crouch against a biting skulk as their is no pushback from a bite in midair. I felt that was a very strong skill to learn in NS1
I would much prefer a buff in walking/strafe speed and no run... Run feels so COD/BF
Note: One massive buff for marines was decreasing range of bite and bite cone. Makes bite spammers suffer painfully and has been a massive buff for marines. Against a good skulk it makes nearly no difference though...
<!--quoteo(post=1954843:date=Jul 29 2012, 08:48 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 29 2012, 08:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always get a good chuckle when people say Aliens have "movement" advantages over Marines.
The 30 second respawn timer I had last night was a real blast too.
there are a lot of maps with bad chokepoints that allow alien teams to defend them too easily. or perhaps it's too hard for marines to advance without upgs vs early game tech (whips).
The dual wielding miniguns thing seems a bit strange.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they plan to make the damage additive dual wielding miniguns is a terrible idea, because to prevent 2 being terribly OP one on its own will have to be terrible.
Also hitreg, while the few 'elite' players might be able to overcome the hitreg issues the majority of the team is going to be made up of the rest of us who find it hard enough to hit the skulk without having to put up with any fancy aim bull######. Once skulks actually take 10 bullets to kill the performance of the marine side will improve considerably.
Well we just won two game in a row, one I was commander and was a resounding victory in less than ~30 minutes, due entirely to the excellent job of my marine team keeping the RT's alive and also denying alien resources. The other a long-term GG that took probably over an hour. 31 kills 40+ deaths 4 (5)? Fade kills, 3 Onos kills (although obviously that's luck of the last-hit).
Marines require a higher response time and coordination amount <i>and</i> a higher individual skill level.
I still think both Fades and Marines need a limit on the shift ability (shadow step, sprint) and that the limit on Marines currently needs to be cut back some.
That said I think a big factor in the Marines suffering currently is related to idiot commanders, I've seen a lot of really poor strategy. The one that stands out most common is <i>"PHASE GATES OR BUTTS"</i> While I can see that being a really good strategy for a very competent team; it's not something you just throw into the laps of new players that could probably use some medpacks, some upgrades, shotguns, or mines a lot more practically. After you use <i>those</i> to secure a second, then you make phase the priority to make defending them ideal. I also see a lot of assumptions that all buildings should go in one place, which is just moronic; because you need both bases <i>anyway</i> or you're completely boned, so you might as well motivate your new-player team to defend the 2nd by putting their jetpacks there. I see marine comms not building armories in forward locations, not using observatories to scan, etc. etc. etc; then whining about "how did we lose".
Then the other half of the blame falls on marines who don't defend RT's; the marines <i>need</i> 3 (4 good!) 5+ (ideal!) to quickly buy all of their upgrades. I think a lot of newer players or people who just don't play comm don't realize how much (phase gate x 2 + protolab + armory & advance + jetpacks + phase gate research) costs; and even there you're just getting started and you want arms lab and upgrades too. I see a lot of marines just run off and die while the RT's get nommed by 1 skulk, those are usually loss games and I can usually predict them right away as a loss. So that's my advice, <b>focus on holding four RT's and make them your priority. </b> Aliens work on preventing this to win the game.
<b>To the players saying Robot Factories are useless: you haven't played a game where both teams get entrenched. </b> I think the 3-Onos + 2 Fade rush probably would have made that game a loss, except we had 4 ARC's ready to defend, 3 turrets, and the whole team arriving in time to save the day with only minimal losses.
That was a fun game blujay, the second was indeed an epic battle. Arcs even made an appearance! The teamwork factor is definitely a must - though I heard a lot of "hey can you weld me" and I'm sure that made a big difference.
<!--quoteo(post=1954931:date=Jul 29 2012, 01:21 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 29 2012, 01:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954931"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That was a fun game blujay, the second was indeed an epic battle. Arcs even made an appearance! The teamwork factor is definitely a must - though I heard a lot of "hey can you weld me" and I'm sure that made a big difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still feel like players should be able to weld themselves (slowly? %50?) if they have a welder, because 3/4 of the time nobody was welding me; although I am a player who is usually suicidally chasing the aliens so that's probably why - I never stand around long enough to get welds.
Even the alien flying things, which I don't even know what are called because they're used so rarely, made an appearance. obviously those are more worthless than ARC's.
I actually think a BIG problem is being overlooked with the lighting system. The colour of the aliens in NS2 look exactly like the background, and also because this game is dark in general this does not help.
I play in the lowest resolution possible, so this does not really apply to me as it is impossible to see aliens at distance anyway. But I have played CS in 640x480/800x600 and found it perfectly playable because of my ability to spot an enemy.
The thing is, every bullet and second counts in combat. How many bullets could be missing their target because of worsened tracking and some of the darker map conditions?
I agree that netcode/server performance (whatever you want to call it) is a massive issue, but the small things all combine to create the experience. Not unlike how when an artist paints, every stroke comes together to form the end product.
Aliens blend in far too well imo, and the flash light really could do with more work.
There is also the big factor of teamwork... which marines seem to be required to do, where as aliens are not. How about weakening their armour/hp somewhat, whilst significantly improving their support systems through the Gorge and Lerk. It forces alien players to work together, rather than being able to spread out and dominate a map by targeting any extractor they like.
I agree the visual and the HUD in general are problematic, specially if you play with atmospherics on and everything. Waypoints get in the way, blips from scan blind you, etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1954936:date=Jul 29 2012, 01:34 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jul 29 2012, 01:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954936"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually think a BIG problem is being overlooked with the lighting system. The colour of the aliens in NS2 look exactly like the background, and also because this game is dark in general this does not help.
I play in the lowest resolution possible, so this does not really apply to me as it is impossible to see aliens at distance anyway. But I have played CS in 640x480/800x600 and found it perfectly playable because of my ability to spot an enemy.
The thing is, every bullet and second counts in combat. How many bullets could be missing their target because of worsened tracking and some of the darker map conditions?
I agree that netcode/server performance (whatever you want to call it) is a massive issue, but the small things all combine to create the experience. Not unlike how when an artist paints, every stroke comes together to form the end product.
Aliens blend in far too well imo, and the flash light really could do with more work.
There is also the big factor of teamwork... which marines seem to be required to do, where as aliens are not. How about weakening their armour/hp somewhat, whilst significantly improving their support systems through the Gorge and Lerk. It forces alien players to work together, rather than being able to spread out and dominate a map by targeting any extractor they like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you don't get to complain about players "blending into the bad lighting" while playing at low resolution. No. No. No.
I'm so annoyed by people saying this. Bah! It's too hard to see the Aliens! Well <i>duh</i> - that's the <i>point</i> the <i>lights are off</i>. They're fast, they're quiet, they can crawl on the ceiling, they're in your vents, they're in your pants, they're aliens, <b>deal with it</b>.
It's "industry standard knowledge" that you play a game at the highest resolution (native to your monitor) and then all bells and whistles come second, because the sharper the image is the easier it is to pick out targets, especially distant ones. THat's like whining that you can't see while not wearing your glasses.
<!--quoteo(post=1954933:date=Jul 29 2012, 04:24 PM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 29 2012, 04:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still feel like players should be able to weld themselves (slowly? %50?) if they have a welder, because 3/4 of the time nobody was welding me; although I am a player who is usually suicidally chasing the aliens so that's probably why - I never stand around long enough to get welds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. It reminds me a lot of Planetside where you had basically a welder and a medic tool and could use both of them on yourself or teammates. They both had "ammo" that you could refill at inventory stations. It worked pretty well.
It seems like a lot of you think the balance issues are related to already existing issues. This is interesting and has validity. I believe the problem exists with gameplay, which is directly effected by game balancing. For instance, if you know your skulk has 50 armor carapace you are going to play in a different way than if it has 30. This changes the overall gameplay and has a butterfly effect on the rest of the game.
You can't go around tweaking 40 numbers at once on each build and expect to get consistent and flowing progress towards an end goal. With each small balance tweak you change the gameplay and in turn create new problems. You may "fix" old problems but usually at the cost of creating even bigger ones.
<b>This is why gameplay changes need to be thought of BEFORE balance changes. Even though they are so intimately related. If you think you can just rebalance the game and keep the same gameplay then you are by definition insane. You are trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.</b>
Charlie needs to make up his mind on what type of gameplay this game should have, and how to balance it FOR that type of gameplay. Right now this is all one big experiment and it's one that is failing <b><i>MISERABLY</i></b>.
I realize the exo suit is not in yet, but the gameplay present between the basic classes is still ######. The gameplay between both commanders is even more ######. I don't have any graphs, numbers, or videos to show. I shouldn't have to have any. UWE should be able to get this right with the feedback and blatantly obvious gameplay sitting right before their eyes.
Think about the game that not only you want to create but one that others will want to play. This is aesthetics vs true art.
You need a balance in a business / product as it is being created for aesthetics mostly. With that notion in mind, why not give us what we want UWE? It is your game, but you want us all to play it and love it, so there needs to be a compromise on what you are creating for us. We love your creation but this game is not only yours, it is ours. We are the consumer and without us your game would never happen.
Let's get the GAMEPLAY where it needs to be and focus on the end picture here. I don't want the exosuit to be the answer to balance because heavy armor in NS1 was not the answer either. Late / mid game tech shouldn't be the focal point of game. The game should be fun without jetpacks and without fades and without etc etc... but all the extras should be a bonus. Right now they feel essential due to having too many / too little tradeoffs for each side. Just by playing a lot you can start to see all types of things that would make the game more balanced, yet patch by patch we see nothing done and buffs and nerfs given to the wrong things.
This is bad game design if that is the case. The game isn't going to be balanced if either team relies on one big important unit or structure. It becomes a gimmick.
I 100% believe this game can be balanced to near perfection if the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers. You guys have an idea of what you want, and so do we. It's more than likely the same thing... to have an awesome game that is fun and rewarding to play. I'd say we have already gotten to that point, but for those who play this game on a regular basis and are your largest fans will be disappointed if the gameplay and balance isn't tight from an overall perspective.
It's super fun to go on aliens and play half asleep and go 50-2... it's great casual play, but fun isn't enduring. If all you guys care about is "fun" then this game is doomed.
I don't think copying NS1 balance and strapping it into NS2 is going to help at all period. We already jacked up any chance of that by adding infestation, powernodes, and the alien commander. Those 3 things messed up the finely tuned balance of NS1 that took years to achieve. I assume this game will take even longer to balance correctly. There is simply way too much seemingly arbitrary crap in the game that doesn't add to the depth at all. I know it's never going to be changed due to all the work put into it... but going to route of NS1 isn't gonna help. We already jacked up all chances of that working. We have to find a way to balance this ridiculous cyst, and powergrid system on top of all the upgrades and abilities. It's very complex and perhaps nearly impossible to truly balance. So, why not forget balance all together and change the gameplay to something where balancing becomes much less important. Make TACTICS, and STRATEGY win games more than arbitrary balance tweaks. Open the game up... make it more free and less linear.
I think once the game is feature complete (1.0), it'll probably take 2-3 releases until it's super balanced. It must be hard to balance/listen to feedback when, I imagine, the playtester group is playtesting builds with EXO suits and the community has a version with all of the other changes minus the EXO suit.
For all we know, we are just not seeing the big picture.
Either way, if UWE is to meet the End of August/Early September deadline, they gotta throw us a feature complete version soon.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Daphisto nailed it, and in much fewer words, too :-P
I get what you're saying ADHD, but your concerns aren't as helpful as the meat and potatoes, the actual feedback : "the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers."
<i>What are those, exactly?</i> The method of delivery of feedback is sub par imo for this beta - mostly originating from the forums, and even then the most useful feedback is buried under dozens of other angry posts.
Too bad there wasn't a consolidated list with issues and ideas that were voted on like the getsatisfaction bug reporting system.. would be such a better way of receiving feedback. The current system just makes some feel ignored - despite the value of their feedback.
I say, start collecting consolidated lists.. it shows the importance of certain subjects and actually collects everyone's input - and most of all its easy to digest and receive for the devs.
<!--quoteo(post=1954835:date=Jul 29 2012, 09:56 PM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jul 29 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IMarine’s movement just feels wrong and really heavy, it doesn't allow delicate touch. I don't care about bunnyhop, glide jump or double jump; I just want freaking strafe to work like it should. I don't know what is wrong in marine movement code, but UWE might want to increase strafing speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log (acceleration falling off too early) not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1954998:date=Jul 30 2012, 04:34 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 30 2012, 04:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that sucks if its true, explains that stupid heavy slow feeling.
Comments
The first of those was definitely a skill issue - the marine team just steam rolled the alien team and took every tech point, then shot the hive to death.
The second was a hive rush with shotguns, and no aliens near by to defend.
The third was a long, epic game, the best I've played in a long long time, with marines going in groups and taking down hives, chasing the aliens around the map as new hives popped up. Arcs came along to assist (one of the few times I saw arcs, actually).
The fourth was a long game that ended with a well-coordinated series of beacon rushes.
In the other eight games, it was a mix of things, but generally it all boiled down to aliens getting 2 hives, leap, cara and regen, developing to fades and lerks and then slowly grinding down the marines. I think in only one of those 8 games did anyone bother to evolve to Onos (or get enough Res to do so).
As stated previously and in other posts - balance can't be complete, or really even fully envisioned, until the last alien abilities and the Exo + weapons are completed. I like that UWE is tweaking the numbers and messing with the abilities to alleviate the growing pains and make the game relatively playable in the interim, but it's almost better to just suck it up and accept that the game is unbalanced until getting much nearer to the finish line.
Hitreg and fps is gonna help the marines but keep in mind it's also going to help the aliens just as much. That's what people don't ###### understand.
Cry about hitreg and FPS all day but the economy and power of upgrades / the asymmetry of movement in this game is completely ###### broken. You can give me 200 fps for all I care. The other guy will have 200 fps as well and still have all his imba armor, abilities, and upgrades... not to mention he is backed by a completely ###### up economy on the aliens side.
Drop hives all day? Yeah....
Oh yeah and shade ink cloud is the most auishdaldkjasd upgrade next to feign death.
You could spam 10 whips in a hallway and put 1 shade there and NEVER lose anything... even if the other team spent 200 res on arcs... its all negated by 1 ###### shade with ink cloud that costs like 2 ###### res.
Skulks now have 50 armor with cara? This HAS to be a "bug/typo" by the devs, like many times before.
Though I see them more as experiments or simply practical jokes :P
Skulks are now mini-onoses and cara is even more BY FAR the most crucial upgrade.
Combine that with their leap and extremely wonky movement, marines don't stand a chance.
Not only that, it seems vanilla skulks have been buffed vs w0 too, and given a speed increase lately right?
Fade health was buffed also? (while i'm on the topic)
Any buffs for marines? Only the nerf which makes them more likely to walk around with no armor (which i'm all for though).
And the nonsensical requirement of 2 CC is pure bs.
Marines can't hold anything? used to be able to get a few turrets to deter skulks
Now, they cant even deter my breath.
Can't get to a second cc? Sorry, no jetpacks.
Also weezl, the skulk cara wasn't at all a bug/typo, it has been in a few builds now.
Lerks used to have 100 armor now its 75 etc, but skulks seem to still have 50, but the upgrade costs nothing? huh?
Marines can't hold anything? used to be able to get a few turrets to deter skulks
Now, they cant even deter my breath.
Can't get to a second cc? Sorry, no jetpacks.
Also weezl, the skulk cara wasn't at all a bug/typo, it has been in a few builds now.
Lerks used to have 100 armor now its 75 etc, but skulks seem to still have 50, but the upgrade costs nothing? huh?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always thought it was 10 and 30 armor like in NS1...
Well, anyways, something made skulks in this build survive 1.5-2 times longer and with cara 2-3 times longer. Anybody inform me?
Honestly i actually thought skulks with 30 cara could still pull their own weight in late game. Granted at the time walljump was more reliable/powerful and air control was higher. +1 about the point regarding grenades.
The problem i think with the high cara values is that it impacts LMG alot more than it does the other weapons... Especially those cele/cara lerks godahm o.0.
The biggest turn off for me and for those 90% competitive players (that’s like 100 players from NS and L4D) that I know who have tried NS2 is:
1. Marine movement.
2. Poor performance.
3. And the fact that there really isn't much to train for.
I try NS2 every build, I go public server to kill some skulks with lmg. Sure it's fun like in NS as long as you keep the skulks on distance, but once skulks get close the lottery starts and I get frustrated. I could fool most of public skulks in NS1 only using strafe and crouch keys, and this way bought some more shooting time to myself in melee distance. In NS2 marines seem to just start jumping (locking themselves to predictable movement pattern) around almost randomly in order to avoid bites. Marine’s movement just feels wrong and really heavy, it doesn't allow delicate touch. I don't care about bunnyhop, glide jump or double jump; I just want freaking strafe to work like it should. I don't know what is wrong in marine movement code, but UWE might want to increase strafing speed.
Of course marine movement and poor performance goes hand to hand. But because others already covered this topic I just want to say, don't ever underestimate impact of FPS. Obviously good framerate is more important for marines than aliens, because aiming need more delicate touch than alien movement. This should be common knowledge everyone who played NS1.
You can also ask yourself what is there to learn in NS2? It has 100% similar aiming system compared to NS1, but in NS1 everything are faster and smoother. So I get better training for aiming playing NS1. Movement in overall is still very sluggish; sure there is skulk's wallhop which is unique skill to learn. I haven't probably mastered it with few hours of playing skulk but I do it better than most. After all NS1 wallhop was much harder to master. But part from skulk’s wallhop NS2 fails miserable when you value overall movement. Of course there are tactics... But it's mostly know-how information and more dynamic tactical understanding (positioning, route blocking etc.) are similar to NS1. And then fanboys shouts that NS2 in more about teamwork than twitch skills. Not really, sprint allows marines to move too fast on map and destroys alien’s chance to regroup and ambush together. Marines can move to key location on map so fast that aliens have to rush everywhere and marines can just hold positions. It should be other way around! I definitely get better teamwork practice playing L4D than NS2.
So the player who has mastered melee vs. range game and has good tactical understanding doesn't really have much to learn in NS2.
This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.
- Early game is too short, marines don't have a whole lot of time before the second hive and lerks/fades come out. Once those lifeforms and/or second tier abilities are out, marines have a hard time competing. IMO this is because they still come out too fast. Marines need a really strong early game (first few minutes) to be able to compete tech-wise and not get completely outplayed once the strong alien midgame hits.
- Abilities like regeneration and carapace are inherently too strong and need some tweaking down. Especially in light of things like the armory change
- Fix sentries. Currently RF is no viable choice for the marine commander, at any stage of the game,, giving them absolutely NO way to play defensively the same way aliens can.
I can guarantee you that if the above were to be changed, you would see a lot more even games. (You'd still need to address various issues lategame, but I'm not going to go into detail on that now since in most games marines don't even make it that far any more)
First thing I noticed playing NS2 was how stupid it is to avoid/dodge skulks. Marines feel so heavy, I guess its because in NS1 you had 1 speed so it was a balance between walk/run (ns2). You also cannot time the jump+crouch against a biting skulk as their is no pushback from a bite in midair. I felt that was a very strong skill to learn in NS1
I would much prefer a buff in walking/strafe speed and no run... Run feels so COD/BF
Note: One massive buff for marines was decreasing range of bite and bite cone. Makes bite spammers suffer painfully and has been a massive buff for marines. Against a good skulk it makes nearly no difference though...
I always get a good chuckle when people say Aliens have "movement" advantages over Marines.
The 30 second respawn timer I had last night was a real blast too.
The dual wielding miniguns thing seems a bit strange.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If they plan to make the damage additive dual wielding miniguns is a terrible idea, because to prevent 2 being terribly OP one on its own will have to be terrible.
Also hitreg, while the few 'elite' players might be able to overcome the hitreg issues the majority of the team is going to be made up of the rest of us who find it hard enough to hit the skulk without having to put up with any fancy aim bull######. Once skulks actually take 10 bullets to kill the performance of the marine side will improve considerably.
Marines require a higher response time and coordination amount <i>and</i> a higher individual skill level.
I still think both Fades and Marines need a limit on the shift ability (shadow step, sprint) and that the limit on Marines currently needs to be cut back some.
That said I think a big factor in the Marines suffering currently is related to idiot commanders, I've seen a lot of really poor strategy. The one that stands out most common is <i>"PHASE GATES OR BUTTS"</i> While I can see that being a really good strategy for a very competent team; it's not something you just throw into the laps of new players that could probably use some medpacks, some upgrades, shotguns, or mines a lot more practically. After you use <i>those</i> to secure a second, then you make phase the priority to make defending them ideal. I also see a lot of assumptions that all buildings should go in one place, which is just moronic; because you need both bases <i>anyway</i> or you're completely boned, so you might as well motivate your new-player team to defend the 2nd by putting their jetpacks there. I see marine comms not building armories in forward locations, not using observatories to scan, etc. etc. etc; then whining about "how did we lose".
Then the other half of the blame falls on marines who don't defend RT's; the marines <i>need</i> 3 (4 good!) 5+ (ideal!) to quickly buy all of their upgrades. I think a lot of newer players or people who just don't play comm don't realize how much (phase gate x 2 + protolab + armory & advance + jetpacks + phase gate research) costs; and even there you're just getting started and you want arms lab and upgrades too. I see a lot of marines just run off and die while the RT's get nommed by 1 skulk, those are usually loss games and I can usually predict them right away as a loss. So that's my advice, <b>focus on holding four RT's and make them your priority. </b> Aliens work on preventing this to win the game.
<b>To the players saying Robot Factories are useless: you haven't played a game where both teams get entrenched. </b> I think the 3-Onos + 2 Fade rush probably would have made that game a loss, except we had 4 ARC's ready to defend, 3 turrets, and the whole team arriving in time to save the day with only minimal losses.
I still feel like players should be able to weld themselves (slowly? %50?) if they have a welder, because 3/4 of the time nobody was welding me; although I am a player who is usually suicidally chasing the aliens so that's probably why - I never stand around long enough to get welds.
Even the alien flying things, which I don't even know what are called because they're used so rarely, made an appearance. obviously those are more worthless than ARC's.
I play in the lowest resolution possible, so this does not really apply to me as it is impossible to see aliens at distance anyway. But I have played CS in 640x480/800x600 and found it perfectly playable because of my ability to spot an enemy.
The thing is, every bullet and second counts in combat. How many bullets could be missing their target because of worsened tracking and some of the darker map conditions?
I agree that netcode/server performance (whatever you want to call it) is a massive issue, but the small things all combine to create the experience. Not unlike how when an artist paints, every stroke comes together to form the end product.
Aliens blend in far too well imo, and the flash light really could do with more work.
There is also the big factor of teamwork... which marines seem to be required to do, where as aliens are not. How about weakening their armour/hp somewhat, whilst significantly improving their support systems through the Gorge and Lerk. It forces alien players to work together, rather than being able to spread out and dominate a map by targeting any extractor they like.
Can't aim what you can't see.
I play in the lowest resolution possible, so this does not really apply to me as it is impossible to see aliens at distance anyway. But I have played CS in 640x480/800x600 and found it perfectly playable because of my ability to spot an enemy.
The thing is, every bullet and second counts in combat. How many bullets could be missing their target because of worsened tracking and some of the darker map conditions?
I agree that netcode/server performance (whatever you want to call it) is a massive issue, but the small things all combine to create the experience. Not unlike how when an artist paints, every stroke comes together to form the end product.
Aliens blend in far too well imo, and the flash light really could do with more work.
There is also the big factor of teamwork... which marines seem to be required to do, where as aliens are not. How about weakening their armour/hp somewhat, whilst significantly improving their support systems through the Gorge and Lerk. It forces alien players to work together, rather than being able to spread out and dominate a map by targeting any extractor they like.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, you don't get to complain about players "blending into the bad lighting" while playing at low resolution. No. No. No.
I'm so annoyed by people saying this. Bah! It's too hard to see the Aliens! Well <i>duh</i> - that's the <i>point</i> the <i>lights are off</i>. They're fast, they're quiet, they can crawl on the ceiling, they're in your vents, they're in your pants, they're aliens, <b>deal with it</b>.
It's "industry standard knowledge" that you play a game at the highest resolution (native to your monitor) and then all bells and whistles come second, because the sharper the image is the easier it is to pick out targets, especially distant ones. THat's like whining that you can't see while not wearing your glasses.
This. It reminds me a lot of Planetside where you had basically a welder and a medic tool and could use both of them on yourself or teammates. They both had "ammo" that you could refill at inventory stations. It worked pretty well.
I believe the problem exists with gameplay, which is directly effected by game balancing.
For instance, if you know your skulk has 50 armor carapace you are going to play in a different way than if it has 30. This changes the overall gameplay and has a butterfly effect on the rest of the game.
You can't go around tweaking 40 numbers at once on each build and expect to get consistent and flowing progress towards an end goal. With each small balance tweak you change the gameplay and in turn create new problems. You may "fix" old problems but usually at the cost of creating even bigger ones.
<b>This is why gameplay changes need to be thought of BEFORE balance changes. Even though they are so intimately related. If you think you can just rebalance the game and keep the same gameplay then you are by definition insane. You are trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.</b>
Charlie needs to make up his mind on what type of gameplay this game should have, and how to balance it FOR that type of gameplay. Right now this is all one big experiment and it's one that is failing <b><i>MISERABLY</i></b>.
I realize the exo suit is not in yet, but the gameplay present between the basic classes is still ######. The gameplay between both commanders is even more ######. I don't have any graphs, numbers, or videos to show. I shouldn't have to have any. UWE should be able to get this right with the feedback and blatantly obvious gameplay sitting right before their eyes.
Think about the game that not only you want to create but one that others will want to play. This is aesthetics vs true art.
You need a balance in a business / product as it is being created for aesthetics mostly. With that notion in mind, why not give us what we want UWE? It is your game, but you want us all to play it and love it, so there needs to be a compromise on what you are creating for us. We love your creation but this game is not only yours, it is ours. We are the consumer and without us your game would never happen.
Let's get the GAMEPLAY where it needs to be and focus on the end picture here. I don't want the exosuit to be the answer to balance because heavy armor in NS1 was not the answer either. Late / mid game tech shouldn't be the focal point of game. The game should be fun without jetpacks and without fades and without etc etc... but all the extras should be a bonus. Right now they feel essential due to having too many / too little tradeoffs for each side. Just by playing a lot you can start to see all types of things that would make the game more balanced, yet patch by patch we see nothing done and buffs and nerfs given to the wrong things.
This is bad game design if that is the case. The game isn't going to be balanced if either team relies on one big important unit or structure. It becomes a gimmick.
I 100% believe this game can be balanced to near perfection if the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers. You guys have an idea of what you want, and so do we. It's more than likely the same thing... to have an awesome game that is fun and rewarding to play. I'd say we have already gotten to that point, but for those who play this game on a regular basis and are your largest fans will be disappointed if the gameplay and balance isn't tight from an overall perspective.
It's super fun to go on aliens and play half asleep and go 50-2... it's great casual play, but fun isn't enduring. If all you guys care about is "fun" then this game is doomed.
I don't think copying NS1 balance and strapping it into NS2 is going to help at all period. We already jacked up any chance of that by adding infestation, powernodes, and the alien commander. Those 3 things messed up the finely tuned balance of NS1 that took years to achieve. I assume this game will take even longer to balance correctly. There is simply way too much seemingly arbitrary crap in the game that doesn't add to the depth at all. I know it's never going to be changed due to all the work put into it... but going to route of NS1 isn't gonna help. We already jacked up all chances of that working. We have to find a way to balance this ridiculous cyst, and powergrid system on top of all the upgrades and abilities. It's very complex and perhaps nearly impossible to truly balance. So, why not forget balance all together and change the gameplay to something where balancing becomes much less important. Make TACTICS, and STRATEGY win games more than arbitrary balance tweaks. Open the game up... make it more free and less linear.
For all we know, we are just not seeing the big picture.
Either way, if UWE is to meet the End of August/Early September deadline, they gotta throw us a feature complete version soon.
I get what you're saying ADHD, but your concerns aren't as helpful as the meat and potatoes, the actual feedback :
"the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers."
<i>What are those, exactly?</i> The method of delivery of feedback is sub par imo for this beta - mostly originating from the forums, and even then the most useful feedback is buried under dozens of other angry posts.
Too bad there wasn't a consolidated list with issues and ideas that were voted on like the getsatisfaction bug reporting system.. would be such a better way of receiving feedback. The current system just makes some feel ignored - despite the value of their feedback.
I say, start collecting consolidated lists.. it shows the importance of certain subjects and actually collects everyone's input - and most of all its easy to digest and receive for the devs.
Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log (acceleration falling off too early) not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well that sucks if its true, explains that stupid heavy slow feeling.