When will we be seeing marines winning games?
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I hate to have to do this</div>It's been over a year now of possible competitive play and we still haven't seen a build where the marines have an even chance against the aliens (especially in competitive play).
What is causing the imbalance... is it even known?
How can we fix this imbalance?
Do the devs not believe that there is a serious balance issue favoring the aliens?
Why haven't we seen 1 build were the marines had a clear edge over the aliens?
Why?
Just asking a very serious and persistent question being asked daily by many NS2 players.
Are we all just so bad at this game that we cannot figure out the genius way to win as marines?
What is causing the imbalance... is it even known?
How can we fix this imbalance?
Do the devs not believe that there is a serious balance issue favoring the aliens?
Why haven't we seen 1 build were the marines had a clear edge over the aliens?
Why?
Just asking a very serious and persistent question being asked daily by many NS2 players.
Are we all just so bad at this game that we cannot figure out the genius way to win as marines?
Comments
Aside from that there are things I notice off the top of my head like:
-Leap skulk being far too effective
-Fades are currently still too hard to deal with (shadowstep, blink invisibility)
-free hydras
-Hives perhaps go up too fast or cost too little
-I think this is getting fixed, but the alien upgrade system is a bit too strong- i.e. when 2nd hive comes out you not only have leap/blink skulk/fade, but they also have both carapace and regen making their staying power around the map near infinite- hence marines often just lose all map control when 2nd hive goes up
and yes, the exo sounds like its just going to be another Onos that takes 10+ patches to reduce it to non-god-mode status. But who knows, it is all speculation.
Just that this doesnt solve anything, since the game should be about options - and not forcing you into lategame tech X to win. (if you reach it before aliens get Y you win otherwise you dont)
Rest, kinda what rantology said.
Leap doesn't concern me as much as carapace does. Skulks shouldn't be this tough.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Fades are currently still too hard to deal with (shadowstep, blink invisibility)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the lack of an HMG plays a big role in the difficulty we have killing lerks and fades.
In theory it sounds good to not have any weapon strait up better than another, but in reality this is an RTS game built around gaining upgrades in power over time in exchange for resources, and the game was originally balanced around the HMG as a late game counter to higher lifeforms. Without it marines don't pose a real serious threat.
When you think about it, the fade is pretty much a strait upgrade to the skulk in combating marines. Being better at taking out RTs is only small consolation for the skulk.
The exo will help by giving us both armor and late game firepower, but there's still the issue of dealing with fades mid game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-free hydras<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A gorge in a hallway basically means that hallway is a no go until someone gets a GL, because otherwise it will take a disproportionate amount of time and manpower to breach the gorge's defenses.
It's a very powerful area denial ability for aliens. I use to do something similar in NS1 by dropping early offense chambers at key positions outside a marine base, but it was never as easy as hydra and clog spam is.
Not sure what can be done about this right now. Personal res doesn't come in fast enough to make hydras viable under the old system, but they'd have to be quite strong to be worth res regardless.
<ul><li>NS gameplay is about "hitscan aim from slow players" versus "melee attacks delivered by players capable of unpredictable rapid movement" (with some exceptions, like jetpacks)</li><li>In NS2 the <b>hit registration and general movement/weapon performance is very poor</b></li><li><b>Aliens' movement abilities are toned down</b> from NS1: more predictable, more expensive, more built-in tradeoffs</li><li><b>To compensate for that</b>, alien attacks are stronger (they come paired with debilitating effects, and have a very high margin for error since they're not precisely aimed)</li><li><b>The net result</b> is that marines are at a disadvantage because they can't effectively deal damage regardless of their skill, and aliens are at an advantage because they can deal large amounts of damage without having a comparable level of skill in their movement mechanics</li><li><b>This design pattern even extends to the commanders -</b> people say with a straight face that the marines' commander should be fast and have "more APM", while the alien commander should be relaxing and disengaged...and somehow other people think this is a good idea</li></ul>
It was obvious when competitive play first started, and it's the exact same now after months upon months of theorizing and experimentation. I can't get excited about watching a streamed game, because I know the aliens will win without trying (unless they suck and die to an ARC train). It's the same in pubs, despite the fact that they should be a more random environment.
Unfortunately, this is just another case where returning to the fundamentals is the only viable answer. There needs to be more of a focus on making performance good, and making aliens more about movement abilities and less about DoT/blinding/snaring/macro mechanics. Improving performance to help marines' aim doesn't address the fact that the aliens have traded skill-indexed movement for free damage and status effects, either. The problem is on both sides.
It has nothing to do with macro mechanics, Tres/Pres/energy, harvester health or any of that other nonsense we obsess about on the forums. From the first scrims to now, aliens win the majority of fights in the large scale (and they win them with enough left over to attack and beat the marines into a pulp). This is true at basically every stage of the game, despite all the half-assed tweaks to infantry portals, spawn waves and so on. It all comes down to how much an individual player can do as a skulk with carapace/leap, a marine with 25fps and 9 tickrate, and so on. Adding more and more mechanics will sweep the issue under the rug on a week-by-week basis, but eventually that won't work anymore!
Seems simple enough.
Seems simple enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Carapace is seriously broken, its so frustrating when you play marine.
Besides this, alot of the balance issues are map related. Making maps for this game is a real art, and many of the maps have alien bias.
That said, I feel like this build was a step forward hit reg wise. I did have a few blips where my shotgun blasts kinda didn't count at all... but other than that it does seem better ish.
Just out of interest, what makes maps so alien biased?
I can understand the lighting stuff NS2 does, but what else makes the maps so alien biased?
I can understand the lighting stuff NS2 does, but what else makes the maps so alien biased?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The layout of the maps play a big part on this aswell. In Docking and Mineshaft the aliens can easily hold 5-6+ rt's and they only need to cover 2 chokepoints for those, and one of those 2 chokepoints are usually their main hive. For the marines the close rt's are in rooms where its easy to camp in unreachable locations as an alien. For example in Dockings landingpad you can just camp under it and harass the rt endlessly.
Nearly every player that is new to the game, plays marines first. They are much more intuitive because they play like every other ego shooter. (Not in a bad way. The RTS part does make it different.) But for noobs it is easier to learn the game as marines first. So new players nearly always join marines, leading to a skill difference. This together with the hitreg problems is the main issue you see aliens win more often. If you would play on a server where voterandom is possible you would have a much more balanced experience.
Oh and on a sidenote. A gorge with hydras in a hallway is very simple to kill. If the people would stop shooting the hydras and rushing the gorge down. Sure you die after that, but so what? Gorge paid 10 res, you 0. The marines that follow you can kill the hydras now, before the gorge gets back. It's all about playing intelligent. I see the marines so often shooting the hydras. Every-time I'm rushing in and kill the gorge. The other marines kill the hydras than and the hallway is clear.
The problem is the plummeting FPS and how it effects mouse input in game. When your fps is quickly dropping from the 40-60 range to the 20-30 range you will experience a simulated "lower mouse sensitivity" but its actually caused by not being able to compute the mouse movements as quickly as before. At least it kinda works something like that. Basically when you go from a smooth frame rate to an abysmal one you will experience mouselag which ruins all chances of precision tracking of a target. You need to trace skulks with the lmg and if you experience a huge fps drop in combat coupled with an unresponsive mouse you are going to get slaughtered.
I have practiced aiming with my feet in this game as trying to move my mouse anywhere I want is nearly impossible at times. I just try to let things line up by themselves and it works a lot of the time for me.
I do have hardware prediction built into my mouse, but I run it at a higher polling rate, 1600 dpi, and on raw input. It does seem like when the fps gets lower the mouse precision gets all wonky for me like the mouse starts relying heavily on predicted angle snapping making it difficult to trace targets moving up and down. I am not sure if anyone else has had a problem with their mice using prediction but it seems to be a problem in this game more than in other quakesque games.
Sometimes when I'm tired I just can see ######, and seeing is pretty useful for aiming.
Like just changing the crosshair to something less enormous would fix the balance problems.
Nearly every player that is new to the game, plays marines first. They are much more intuitive because they play like every other ego shooter. (Not in a bad way. The RTS part does make it different.) But for noobs it is easier to learn the game as marines first. So new players nearly always join marines, leading to a skill difference. This together with the hitreg problems is the main issue you see aliens win more often. If you would play on a server where voterandom is possible you would have a much more balanced experience.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But even competitive play has the same problem.
Aside from that there are things I notice off the top of my head like:
-Leap skulk being far too effective
-Fades are currently still too hard to deal with (shadowstep, blink invisibility)
-free hydras
-Hives perhaps go up too fast or cost too little
-I think this is getting fixed, but the alien upgrade system is a bit too strong- i.e. when 2nd hive comes out you not only have leap/blink skulk/fade, but they also have both carapace and regen making their staying power around the map near infinite- hence marines often just lose all map control when 2nd hive goes up
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This sums up my thoughts pretty nicely!
<!--quoteo(post=1954601:date=Jul 28 2012, 12:01 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 28 2012, 12:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954601"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm curios why nobody has mentioned the most obvious cause. It even existed in NS1.
Nearly every player that is new to the game, plays marines first. They are much more intuitive because they play like every other ego shooter. (Not in a bad way. The RTS part does make it different.) But for noobs it is easier to learn the game as marines first. So new players nearly always join marines, leading to a skill difference. This together with the hitreg problems is the main issue you see aliens win more often. If you would play on a server where voterandom is possible you would have a much more balanced experience.
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good point, sounds very reasonable!
Something I'd like to add is the nature of expansion and map control. Marines have to do everything "manually"; a marine presence and ground control is required to expand anywhere. While aliens on the other hand expand "passively"; as long as an area is secured or empty, the kham can expand to there in peace with the rest of the team focusing almost all attention on hindering rine expansion or retaking areas.
This happened when the gorge was replaced with the kham, which freed up the gorge players to be offensive lifeforms and their pres for that same purpose. This is a fundamental design flaw in NS2 imo!
That's why I strongly argue for 1) making hydras a res sink for gorges, and 2) something more complex: give gorges the ability to build everything (or atleast cyst/whip/rt).
I do agree with this. It feels like there is a gap in tech.
This + working on consistent FPS.
I know the devs really want a minigun on an exo. That's great! Give the exo a free HMG, just make it cost-proportionate. The main benefits to hopping in the thing should be:
Extra armor
option of 2nd minigun(if still planned?)
Option of railgun
Even if you make it so JP can't carry HMG, or do some sort of balancing, regular marines need that firepower.
And although the marines seem to be winning a little more often in 215 than in 214 (imo), its still way off. The game tracker that UWE put together (http://unknownworldsstats.appspot.com/displayendgamestats) seems to be broken though, so we don't have any solid stats on that.
Beyond that yes, I agree that Marines do not have enough options for tech. Aliens have much more options, and while this may not exactly give them a winning edge, the kind of limited tech options of marines limiots their competetive variety.
I know the devs really want a minigun on an exo. That's great! Give the exo a free HMG, just make it cost-proportionate. The main benefits to hopping in the thing should be:
Extra armor
option of 2nd minigun(if still planned?)
Option of railgun
Even if you make it so JP can't carry HMG, or do some sort of balancing, regular marines need that firepower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes!
EXO Minigun: Takes a split second to spin up the barrel before it can start shooting. Can only shoot continuously for x seconds before it overheats and needs a cool down. Has unlimited ammo.
Marine HMG: Has 200 round ammo canister. Reload time takes 4x as long as regular LMG. Rate of fire is about the same as LMG, maybe a bit more. Damage is slightly more.
EXO Minigun: Takes a split second to spin up the barrel before it can start shooting. Can only shoot continuously for x seconds before it overheats and needs a cool down. Has unlimited ammo.
Marine HMG: Has 200 round ammo canister. Reload time takes 4x as long as regular LMG. Rate of fire is about the same as LMG, maybe a bit more. Damage is slightly more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find the idea of dual wielding railguns and miniguns terrible imbalanced already, without giving it unlimited ammo.
I agree.
The dual wielding miniguns thing seems a bit strange.
One time, I was shooting a skulk at close range and he set off a mine I had just placed. The mine exploded and killed me yet he survived even though I had shot him before he hit the mine. Explain that one to me.
Also there shouldn't be one thing that changes the whole game (I'm talking about exo suits). That takes out any strategy. Marines should be balance without exo's because you can't guarantee that the marines will even get to full tech.
I've noticed the only way to win games as Marine is to get phasetech first, have marines rush the hive RT, and then kill all other RTs. This of course is probably the most lame strategy ever but it works.
BS. It's perfectly possible to win as marines, and there are many different ways to do it.
That said, aliens do have an advantage. The main reason for which is:
<!--quoteo(post=1954562:date=Jul 28 2012, 05:35 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 28 2012, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A huge issue which is starting to get better bit by bit and the major obvious culprit is hit reg and performance (client/server). The animation system could also really use some love because I see aliens (especially skulks) warping and jerking around like no tommorow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely unrelated remark: I feel that the spawn rates are too fast, especially for marines. Currently this is outweighed by the hitreg and performance problems, but once those are fixed, I predict marine spawn rates will have to be lowered.
Obviously but its extremely difficult.