I don't think it's the case, when you press W a force is added to your marine, and your velocity reach max velocity exponentially with a time constant given by the friction coefficient. That how it should work with classical mechanics at least.
UWE is using a bit of a different parametrization but I think the result is more or less the same, i.e. you reach exponentially max speed with a given time constant.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, there are some ground rules for melee vs. range games. One of them is that: range side has to be in normal combat situations stronger than melee side and therefore melee side have to have some other advantages. The L4D is designed that survivals are more powerful and infected just try to damage to them. In NS1 that advantage was mobility and tech advantage: if both sides just capped RTs and didn't try to destroy opponents RTs, aliens would win every time. This forced marines to keep pressure and attack deep in aliens’ territory. This, plus aliens better mobility allowed aliens to ambush and attack together marine's pressure group. Let me remind you that skulk with 1 kpd was really good skulk in NS1. I don't really see how the NS2 can be balanced without copying this from NS1. I might sound like elitist ######bag, but this is logic and it's really alarming that UWE aren't aware logical rules of their own game genre.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thanks for info. Other obvious rule for range vs. melee game is that you don't want hard counters. Marines should have advantage over distance and aliens in melee (duh), but only an advantage. If aliens are overpowered in melee compared to marines, it indeed leads really dull combat situations, because it forces marines to be over cautious. Best way for marines to keep distance to aliens is done by camping in key areas and best way for aliens is to camp in small corridors. Neither wants to attack. You want to have game where both sides can survive in every area, although, advantages there should be. This leads us to main point, why we need ability for marines to dodge aliens' bites. Order to get marines attack alien territory they must have chance in melee distance as well.
Lots of great points in this thread, i truly hope the devs read it + use the information.
Like has been said; in NS1 you have so many more options as a marine regarding your movement. You can make quick strafejumps or even jump into a bite or swipe and then use the knockback to buy yourself more shooting time + a lot more. In NS2 you can try to jump randomly to abuse the bad hitreg+animations+performance combination to make it harder to hit you. And sadly thats about it. It really contributes to how chaotic and random the combat feels, marines and aliens running in circles trying to get a hit register succesfully. You could think that with ns1 movement mechanics the combat is more random/chaotic than with the sluggish ns2 marines, but you are wrong.
Then theres collisions, a lot of time the skulk/fade/whatever just sinks inside you, and you cant move or jump at all anymore. Or you waste lots of ammo on invisible yet bullet blocking geometry.
Performance too obviously plays a big role, especially for the marines. Not only do enemy movement get a lot choppier, but the fluctuating fps means that your mouse sensitivity fluctuates aswell and that obviously makes aiming very unreliable.
Weapon switchspeed is also quite slow, and infact its a lot of times better to just reload your gun instead of switching. On the other hand the guns reload quite fast when compared to those of ns1. I have to say i like the way it is in ns1 more. You can use the pistol to quickly deal lots of damage at long range so you dont waste lot of time reloading the lmg. In ns2 its better to just use the lmg because with the reload and gun switching speed its more effective that way.
Atleast someone from uwe was playing ns1 recently according to that tweet, so maybe they will make bit of comparision between the games and realise the flaws in the core mechanics.
speaking of movement quirks (or lack-there-of) of NS2, kind of funny how in this patch you can spam jump as a marine and the alien momentum transfers to you when they run into you? I've been sent flying all the way across rooms this patch.. Never used to happen before so I assume they are still tweaking marine movement mechanics from patch to patch..
and for the love of god, crouch jump is <u><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->still<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b></u> broken
<!--quoteo(post=1955047:date=Jul 30 2012, 10:18 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 30 2012, 10:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->speaking of movement quirks (or lack-there-of) of NS2, kind of funny how in this patch you can spam jump as a marine and the alien momentum transfers to you when they run into you? I've been sent flying all the way across rooms this patch.. Never used to happen before so I assume they are still tweaking marine movement mechanics from patch to patch..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So thats what was happening!!!! oh dear.
<!--quoteo(post=1955176:date=Jul 31 2012, 07:05 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 31 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955176"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Odd, I was just on a server where Marines were the only ones winning.
As performance and hit detection improves, Aliens are becoming more and more of a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are seriously alot of really bad players in the beta (aus community) that obviously never played NS1. So many aliens have had easy mode for so long where they can just run and jump along walls at marines and it was working. As FPS improves, this no longer will work and skulk will go back to how its meant to be played. Outsmarting + ambushing + feints + para baits
Marines shouldn't be able to count on dodging skulks to survive anyway. Marine survivability is suppose to be based in teamwork and firepower, not movement skills.
<!--quoteo(post=1955193:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:34 PM:name=mf-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mf- @ Jul 30 2012, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are seriously alot of really bad players in the beta (aus community) that obviously never played NS1. So many aliens have had easy mode for so long where they can just run and jump along walls at marines and it was working. As FPS improves, this no longer will work and skulk will go back to how its meant to be played. Outsmarting + ambushing + feints + para baits<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sadly, it seems this game is being balanced around those low skill level players (marines) that cry about how bad they are.
Yes, once fps improves, the game should be were it belongs. Problem is, skulks are larger than their ns1 counterparts, seemingly slower, and movement control has been gutted again this patch- abysmal. Marine sprint is also serious problem because they're already halfway across the map and that doesn't allow much time for skulks to set up ambushes either. In addition to the maps being smaller also severely impacts the problem. The game has become too fast paced to allow proper ambushing.
Looking into my crystal ball, at this rate, once this game goes live with exosuits (and hopefully decent performance), people are going to realize how rough of a shape aliens are in and were back to marine stacking. The game will start dying shortly after because it's such a mess. I've seen this happen time and time again with other games. The first month of any game sets how well the game is going to do. If it doesn't impress people or there are too many issues, and people stop playing, the game isn't going to recover.
<!--quoteo(post=1955209:date=Jul 31 2012, 09:57 AM:name=MisterNubs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterNubs @ Jul 31 2012, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, once fps improves, the game should be were it belongs. Problem is, skulks are larger than their ns1 counterparts,<b> seemingly slower, and movement control has been gutted again this patch- abysmal</b>. Marine sprint is also serious problem because they're already halfway across the map and that doesn't allow much time for skulks to set up ambushes either. In addition to the maps being smaller also severely impacts the problem. The game has become too fast paced to allow proper ambushing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The best players will adapt and learn of ways to gain every advantage possible. Lets face it, a solid marine could solo 3 skulks anyway if he had enough time to get his full lmg + pistol clip off (NS1). Same thing is happening in NS2 until cara is out...
BTW.. does anyone know the way armor works yet in NS2? I was looking through the .lua files but could not figure it out...
I believe in NS1 it was 30% dmg reduction, anyone know the values for NS2?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Odd, I was just on a server where Marines were the only ones winning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously - if it was possible, you could win as spectator in pubs.
Most pub games(my opinion) are not decided by balance, but by what players do(who has more players that understand the game) you very often see nobody go comm at the beginning (so you got unequal starts) You very often see players wanting to stack one side, so you see 1-2 players more on on side at the start you very often see half of a team leaving if they suddenly feel like its lost - even if it isnt. (so this team is occasional at half capacity until new ppl join the server or whatever) Also winning team joiners and afk ppl.
If your opinion is based on something like the quote above - then im not sure if you are the best one to have a discussion about balance.
carapace/armor absorbs 70% of damage and transmits 30% to health.
aka 1 lmg bullet = 10 damage, vs skulk = 3 health damage 7 cara damage. this is further modified by damage types: (light does 1 armor dmg for every 4 dmg soaked, normal 1:2, heavy 1:1)
<!--quoteo(post=1955208:date=Jul 31 2012, 10:50 AM:name=Rise)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rise @ Jul 31 2012, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines shouldn't be able to count on dodging skulks to survive anyway. Marine survivability is suppose to be based in teamwork and firepower, not movement skills.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->More to the point the marine advantage is ranged attack not melee. If an aliens gotten into melee range the marine should be at a disadvantage from a movement perspective...after all the marines pwn aliens at ranged attacks.
out of curiosity why does light damage even exist? 50 armor skulks wouldn't be NEARLY as bad if lmg damage wasn't crap against anything but un-armored aliens. Marines DONT need an HMG, they just need normal damage on lmg. This would solve a lot of problems with marine early/mid game and leave aliens as they are (maybe even give them more armor to compensate).
once shotties were switched to normal damage, onoses became a lot more managable. Hell, even a research to make lmg bullets stronger would take the place of the HMG for the standard foot soldier (Uranium Ammunition anyone?).
<!--quoteo(post=1955229:date=Jul 30 2012, 07:42 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 30 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955229"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines DONT need an HMG, they just need normal damage on lmg. This would solve a lot of problems with marine early/mid game and leave aliens as they are (maybe even give them more armor to compensate).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EXOs require HEAVY WEAPONZ
But more seriously, I think HMGs always have a place. There's something satisfying about a big giant clip and spraying bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=1955231:date=Jul 30 2012, 10:50 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 30 2012, 10:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955231"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But more seriously, I think HMGs always have a place. There's something satisfying about a big giant clip and spraying bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->I question your general posting structure and argumentation but cannot politely say so. Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Meanwhile, the best servers are topped out 24/7, because balanced or not this game is fun as hell.
<!--quoteo(post=1955241:date=Jul 30 2012, 10:47 PM:name=blujay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blujay @ Jul 30 2012, 10:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955241"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Meanwhile, the best servers are topped out 24/7, because balanced or not this game is fun as hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about that. There have been some builds where the balance was so bad that it felt pointless and unfun to even play.
Right now it's really not fun playing as marines once fades are out. Lerks are only tolerable because they don't have a lot of killing power, even if they rarely die.
Having (very shortly) played the last build, it did feel a lot harder playing as a marine. That said, when can we expect the EXO suit? I do miss the HA trains and HMGs.
<!--quoteo(post=1954555:date=Jul 28 2012, 05:13 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 28 2012, 05:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been over a year now of possible competitive play and we still haven't seen a build where the marines have an even chance against the aliens (especially in competitive play).
...
Why haven't we seen 1 build were the marines had a clear edge over the aliens?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In early builds less then a year ago, game play was a lot more balanced.
There have been builds where marines have had the edge in the past.
But I agree though, I hope the balance will be actually Balanced soon as aliens had the clear agvantage for months now and its getting ridiculous
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Competitive play in an unfinished, unbalanced game with bad performance is a bit useless i think. Only people with heavy oc computers have the chance to play with acceptable fps atm. So the "skill-level" increase with your ghz your cpu has. Im sure there descent aimers out there, but they cannot show there skills cause lack of fps and constantly hitches. Great basic for real competitive games.
Everyone can easily write his own aimbot within 15 min with lua-skills or remove all textures, spore clouds or whatever in seconds.
The game is evolving every patch also, that is another reason why its useless right now.
So, be cool. Game should be finished soon. Then the real competition starts.
I actually think it has become better with marines as of the last patch. Admitedly there are still some aspects of the game which hurt the marine play, where hit reg is still a big one (I do cry when I shoot a skulk 5 times with a shotgun and it just keeps on chewing). However, with the last patch I have had much more success with hitting things, so much that I think when the game becomes stable, and has a proper, consistent hit detection, marines will need a nerf. From a personal point of view, it seems that more fades/lerks are getting killed in the pubs as well, which could indicate an increase in hit reg.
That aside, balance should not really be a priority as of yet (not in any more ways than tweaking a few numbers here and there at least), because the data comming in is so corrupted by the poor performance.
<!--quoteo(post=1955423:date=Jul 31 2012, 06:08 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 31 2012, 06:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you know what i noticed in this patch? marines are talking to each other a lot more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is at least part of why I suspect the win/loss ratio has gotten much better for marines this build.
Sometimes I think there are some complexities in how things are being balanced that is making balance a lot harder. Granted, this game is asymmetrical and understanding it is incredible hard.
But for me, the big factor is about the following (rough) equation/flow chart, and I'm no mathematician.
SPAWN - TRAVEL TIME TO A LOCATION + (AVG DAMAGE OF TECH) - DEATH - REPEAT
Now we all realise that this game is about extractors, and so really aliens have an advantage over marines in that when they die they can return faster to an extractor which is the same distance to the marines as it is the alien spawn.
When aliens have the ability to travel quicker, they have an advantage. This is the BIGGEST cause of the marines inability to expand and control a map successfully, and you see it so often on public servers with the alien spread and the slow marine decline.
I think this can be balanced by the marines ability to either travel to those locations quicker (which is why phase gates are SO important) OR the ability to slow the aliens down.
I think this is can be solved by changing HOW sentries and mines work, and making defences more about slowing aliens or preventing them from moving into an area (door welds) or coming up with other options.
Quake 2 Weapons Factory was a great mod, as it had several methods of defence (capture the flag) and was faster than NS1. Basically it had LETHAL but WEAK defenses that worked as movement obstacles.
These consisted of:
1. Sentry (But usually only ever one was on the map at a time, from what I can remember.)
2. A laser trip wire, but instead of exploding a mine it drained HP extremely quickly. Only the tough classes could make it through alive.
4. A mine that was essentially an alarm for sneaky players - this could be interesting, especially if it highlighted aliens on the marine's HUD.
I think these methods actually compliment marine vs alien gameplay, rather than cause mayhem such as explosions (mines) and rooms you can not fight in (sentry spam).
Perhaps marines could place a mine which works like a shield for local structures, and blocks X amount of damage before they fail.
Or electrical mines rather than explosive ones.
Or the ability to WELD VENTS... that can only be re-opened from attacking the opposite side.
Comments
UWE is using a bit of a different parametrization but I think the result is more or less the same, i.e. you reach exponentially max speed with a given time constant.
Yeah, there are some ground rules for melee vs. range games. One of them is that: range side has to be in normal combat situations stronger than melee side and therefore melee side have to have some other advantages. The L4D is designed that survivals are more powerful and infected just try to damage to them. In NS1 that advantage was mobility and tech advantage: if both sides just capped RTs and didn't try to destroy opponents RTs, aliens would win every time. This forced marines to keep pressure and attack deep in aliens’ territory. This, plus aliens better mobility allowed aliens to ambush and attack together marine's pressure group. Let me remind you that skulk with 1 kpd was really good skulk in NS1. I don't really see how the NS2 can be balanced without copying this from NS1. I might sound like elitist ######bag, but this is logic and it's really alarming that UWE aren't aware logical rules of their own game genre.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for info. Other obvious rule for range vs. melee game is that you don't want hard counters. Marines should have advantage over distance and aliens in melee (duh), but only an advantage. If aliens are overpowered in melee compared to marines, it indeed leads really dull combat situations, because it forces marines to be over cautious. Best way for marines to keep distance to aliens is done by camping in key areas and best way for aliens is to camp in small corridors. Neither wants to attack. You want to have game where both sides can survive in every area, although, advantages there should be. This leads us to main point, why we need ability for marines to dodge aliens' bites. Order to get marines attack alien territory they must have chance in melee distance as well.
Like has been said; in NS1 you have so many more options as a marine regarding your movement. You can make quick strafejumps or even jump into a bite or swipe and then use the knockback to buy yourself more shooting time + a lot more. In NS2 you can try to jump randomly to abuse the bad hitreg+animations+performance combination to make it harder to hit you. And sadly thats about it.
It really contributes to how chaotic and random the combat feels, marines and aliens running in circles trying to get a hit register succesfully. You could think that with ns1 movement mechanics the combat is more random/chaotic than with the sluggish ns2 marines, but you are wrong.
Then theres collisions, a lot of time the skulk/fade/whatever just sinks inside you, and you cant move or jump at all anymore. Or you waste lots of ammo on invisible yet bullet blocking geometry.
Performance too obviously plays a big role, especially for the marines. Not only do enemy movement get a lot choppier, but the fluctuating fps means that your mouse sensitivity fluctuates aswell and that obviously makes aiming very unreliable.
Weapon switchspeed is also quite slow, and infact its a lot of times better to just reload your gun instead of switching. On the other hand the guns reload quite fast when compared to those of ns1. I have to say i like the way it is in ns1 more. You can use the pistol to quickly deal lots of damage at long range so you dont waste lot of time reloading the lmg. In ns2 its better to just use the lmg because with the reload and gun switching speed its more effective that way.
Atleast someone from uwe was playing ns1 recently according to that tweet, so maybe they will make bit of comparision between the games and realise the flaws in the core mechanics.
and for the love of god, crouch jump is <u><b><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->still<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b></u> broken
So thats what was happening!!!! oh dear.
As performance and hit detection improves, Aliens are becoming more and more of a joke.
As performance and hit detection improves, Aliens are becoming more and more of a joke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are seriously alot of really bad players in the beta (aus community) that obviously never played NS1. So many aliens have had easy mode for so long where they can just run and jump along walls at marines and it was working. As FPS improves, this no longer will work and skulk will go back to how its meant to be played. Outsmarting + ambushing + feints + para baits
Sadly, it seems this game is being balanced around those low skill level players (marines) that cry about how bad they are.
Yes, once fps improves, the game should be were it belongs. Problem is, skulks are larger than their ns1 counterparts, seemingly slower, and movement control has been gutted again this patch- abysmal. Marine sprint is also serious problem because they're already halfway across the map and that doesn't allow much time for skulks to set up ambushes either. In addition to the maps being smaller also severely impacts the problem. The game has become too fast paced to allow proper ambushing.
Looking into my crystal ball, at this rate, once this game goes live with exosuits (and hopefully decent performance), people are going to realize how rough of a shape aliens are in and were back to marine stacking. The game will start dying shortly after because it's such a mess. I've seen this happen time and time again with other games. The first month of any game sets how well the game is going to do. If it doesn't impress people or there are too many issues, and people stop playing, the game isn't going to recover.
The best players will adapt and learn of ways to gain every advantage possible. Lets face it, a solid marine could solo 3 skulks anyway if he had enough time to get his full lmg + pistol clip off (NS1). Same thing is happening in NS2 until cara is out...
BTW.. does anyone know the way armor works yet in NS2? I was looking through the .lua files but could not figure it out...
I believe in NS1 it was 30% dmg reduction, anyone know the values for NS2?
Seriously - if it was possible, you could win as spectator in pubs.
Most pub games(my opinion) are not decided by balance, but by what players do(who has more players that understand the game)
you very often see nobody go comm at the beginning (so you got unequal starts)
You very often see players wanting to stack one side, so you see 1-2 players more on on side at the start
you very often see half of a team leaving if they suddenly feel like its lost - even if it isnt. (so this team is occasional at half capacity until new ppl join the server or whatever)
Also winning team joiners and afk ppl.
If your opinion is based on something like the quote above - then im not sure if you are the best one to have a discussion about balance.
aka 1 lmg bullet = 10 damage, vs skulk = 3 health damage 7 cara damage. this is further modified by damage types: (light does 1 armor dmg for every 4 dmg soaked, normal 1:2, heavy 1:1)
Marines DONT need an HMG, they just need normal damage on lmg. This would solve a lot of problems with marine early/mid game and leave aliens as they are (maybe even give them more armor to compensate).
once shotties were switched to normal damage, onoses became a lot more managable. Hell, even a research to make lmg bullets stronger would take the place of the HMG for the standard foot soldier (Uranium Ammunition anyone?).
EXOs require HEAVY WEAPONZ
But more seriously, I think HMGs always have a place. There's something satisfying about a big giant clip and spraying bullets.
+1
I couldn't agree more!
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->I question your general posting structure and argumentation but cannot politely say so.
Be nice. --Zaggy<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Meanwhile, the best servers are topped out 24/7, because balanced or not this game is fun as hell.
+1
Right now it's really not fun playing as marines once fades are out. Lerks are only tolerable because they don't have a lot of killing power, even if they rarely die.
That said, when can we expect the EXO suit?
I do miss the HA trains and HMGs.
...
Why haven't we seen 1 build were the marines had a clear edge over the aliens?
...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In early builds less then a year ago, game play was a lot more balanced.
There have been builds where marines have had the edge in the past.
But I agree though, I hope the balance will be actually Balanced soon as aliens had the clear agvantage for months now and its getting ridiculous
Im sure there descent aimers out there, but they cannot show there skills cause lack of fps and constantly hitches.
Great basic for real competitive games.
Everyone can easily write his own aimbot within 15 min with lua-skills or remove all textures, spore clouds or whatever in seconds.
The game is evolving every patch also, that is another reason why its useless right now.
So, be cool. Game should be finished soon. Then the real competition starts.
That aside, balance should not really be a priority as of yet (not in any more ways than tweaking a few numbers here and there at least), because the data comming in is so corrupted by the poor performance.
Which is at least part of why I suspect the win/loss ratio has gotten much better for marines this build.
But for me, the big factor is about the following (rough) equation/flow chart, and I'm no mathematician.
SPAWN - TRAVEL TIME TO A LOCATION + (AVG DAMAGE OF TECH) - DEATH - REPEAT
Now we all realise that this game is about extractors, and so really aliens have an advantage over marines in that when they die they can return faster to an extractor which is the same distance to the marines as it is the alien spawn.
When aliens have the ability to travel quicker, they have an advantage. This is the BIGGEST cause of the marines inability to expand and control a map successfully, and you see it so often on public servers with the alien spread and the slow marine decline.
I think this can be balanced by the marines ability to either travel to those locations quicker (which is why phase gates are SO important) OR the ability to slow the aliens down.
I think this is can be solved by changing HOW sentries and mines work, and making defences more about slowing aliens or preventing them from moving into an area (door welds) or coming up with other options.
Quake 2 Weapons Factory was a great mod, as it had several methods of defence (capture the flag) and was faster than NS1. Basically it had LETHAL but WEAK defenses that worked as movement obstacles.
These consisted of:
1. Sentry (But usually only ever one was on the map at a time, from what I can remember.)
2. A laser trip wire, but instead of exploding a mine it drained HP extremely quickly. Only the tough classes could make it through alive.
<a href="http://youtu.be/hvW0j3gQHn8?t=1m15s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/hvW0j3gQHn8?t=1m15s</a>
3. Floating sentry mines, they can be destroyed in one good shot and helped to weaken the enemy.
<a href="http://youtu.be/hvW0j3gQHn8?t=2m22s" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/hvW0j3gQHn8?t=2m22s</a>
4. A mine that was essentially an alarm for sneaky players - this could be interesting, especially if it highlighted aliens on the marine's HUD.
I think these methods actually compliment marine vs alien gameplay, rather than cause mayhem such as explosions (mines) and rooms you can not fight in (sentry spam).
Perhaps marines could place a mine which works like a shield for local structures, and blocks X amount of damage before they fail.
Or electrical mines rather than explosive ones.
Or the ability to WELD VENTS... that can only be re-opened from attacking the opposite side.