<!--quoteo(post=1954835:date=Jul 29 2012, 11:56 AM:name=Tane)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tane @ Jul 29 2012, 11:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know why I'm pointing out obvious but here we go...
The biggest turn off for me and for those 90% competitive players (that’s like 100 players from NS and L4D) that I know who have tried NS2 is:
1. Marine movement. 2. Poor performance. 3. And the fact that there really isn't much to train for.
I try NS2 every build, I go public server to kill some skulks with lmg. Sure it's fun like in NS as long as you keep the skulks on distance, but once skulks get close the lottery starts and I get frustrated. I could fool most of public skulks in NS1 only using strafe and crouch keys, and this way bought some more shooting time to myself in melee distance. In NS2 marines seem to just start jumping (locking themselves to predictable movement pattern) around almost randomly in order to avoid bites. Marine’s movement just feels wrong and really heavy, it doesn't allow delicate touch. I don't care about bunnyhop, glide jump or double jump; I just want freaking strafe to work like it should. I don't know what is wrong in marine movement code, but UWE might want to increase strafing speed.
Of course marine movement and poor performance goes hand to hand. But because others already covered this topic I just want to say, don't ever underestimate impact of FPS. Obviously good framerate is more important for marines than aliens, because aiming need more delicate touch than alien movement. This should be common knowledge everyone who played NS1.
You can also ask yourself what is there to learn in NS2? It has 100% similar aiming system compared to NS1, but in NS1 everything are faster and smoother. So I get better training for aiming playing NS1. Movement in overall is still very sluggish; sure there is skulk's wallhop which is unique skill to learn. I haven't probably mastered it with few hours of playing skulk but I do it better than most. After all NS1 wallhop was much harder to master. But part from skulk’s wallhop NS2 fails miserable when you value overall movement. Of course there are tactics... But it's mostly know-how information and more dynamic tactical understanding (positioning, route blocking etc.) are similar to NS1. And then fanboys shouts that NS2 in more about teamwork than twitch skills. Not really, sprint allows marines to move too fast on map and destroys alien’s chance to regroup and ambush together. Marines can move to key location on map so fast that aliens have to rush everywhere and marines can just hold positions. It should be other way around! I definitely get better teamwork practice playing L4D than NS2.
So the player who has mastered melee vs. range game and has good tactical understanding doesn't really have much to learn in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954843:date=Jul 29 2012, 12:48 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 29 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954984:date=Jul 30 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 30 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think once the game is feature complete (1.0), it'll probably take 2-3 releases until it's super balanced. It must be hard to balance/listen to feedback when, I imagine, the playtester group is playtesting builds with EXO suits and the community has a version with all of the other changes minus the EXO suit.
For all we know, we are just not seeing the big picture.
Either way, if UWE is to meet the End of August/Early September deadline, they gotta throw us a feature complete version soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954995:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:10 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 30 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Daphisto nailed it, and in much fewer words, too :-P
I get what you're saying ADHD, but your concerns aren't as helpful as the meat and potatoes, the actual feedback : "the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers."
<i>What are those, exactly?</i> The method of delivery of feedback is sub par imo for this beta - mostly originating from the forums, and even then the most useful feedback is buried under dozens of other angry posts.
Too bad there wasn't a consolidated list with issues and ideas that were voted on like the getsatisfaction bug reporting system.. would be such a better way of receiving feedback. The current system just makes some feel ignored - despite the value of their feedback.
I say, start collecting consolidated lists.. it shows the importance of certain subjects and actually collects everyone's input - and most of all its easy to digest and receive for the devs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954998:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:34 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 30 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log (acceleration falling off too early) not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of the best posts of this thread for those people who skip to the last page.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
I see so many marine wins right now (215), i think the game is on the right way balancewise. It need only a few little tweaks here and there and then its ready to go.
As noone of of us (only playtester) saw the exo in action yet, i talk about the current situation.
Fact is: the losing team is complaining about how OP the other side is. If Aliens lose then its cause: Shotty op, Jetpack fly to long, arc imba, sentry spam, armory spam, nanoshield-spam, .. If Marines lose: Fade OP, Onos OP, cyst-spam, Hive-spam,..
This tells me, the game seem to be more balanced than most people think. Im sure most games won by a team that was only better than the other. This is one thing, noone can balance. But its easier to say xxx is OP instead: Well, the other team was the better one.
On a subjective basis, I still think the aliens win more. Marines do now win some. It think the competitive games are where we really need to watch for balancing ideas.
Off the topic a little bit, I do think marine commander is one of the most important tasks for winning of marines. I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)
<!--quoteo(post=1955432:date=Jul 31 2012, 04:25 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jul 31 2012, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955432"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now we all realise that this game is about extractors, and so really aliens have an advantage over marines in that when they die they can return faster to an extractor which is the same distance to the marines as it is the alien spawn.
When aliens have the ability to travel quicker, they have an advantage. This is the BIGGEST cause of the marines inability to expand and control a map successfully, and you see it so often on public servers with the alien spread and the slow marine decline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not completely true. While Aliens can get units around the map faster, their growth to take RTs is slower due to the requirements of Cysts. Plus in theory a squad of Marines should fend off an equal squad of Skulks, and thus should be able to hold together and have a flexible early expansion phase. Once more lifeforms pop and especially when Hive2 is up, Marines severely need to hunker down and gain mobility fast.
what if, for example, instead of just having aliens start out so strong with their higher lifeforms so early, make it so that they are both General and Personal upgradeable??
by which meaning, we know that Fade takes 50 res, Blink ability researched by Khammander, 2 hits to kill Armor 0 marine, have a lot of energy to do shadow stepping, blink, etc.
so what i meant is giving some changes, like how marines can go "BUY" something with resources, the aliens shouldn't get the upgrades for granted?
so, let's for example change it in such a way that, the aliens are capable of putting more than one same type "regen" building, up to level 3 (like marines), using TEAM RES.
but, the effect of regen is limited in each one. Also, Energy usage of the aliens is increased, forcing them to need to "PERSONAL" upgrade extra energy bar/limit.
Instead of easily killing Armor 0 marines in two swipes, make it 3, but capable of upgrading the said claw weapon damage by spending personal RES?
this i believe, would force both players and khammander to choose carefully what type of gameplay they yearn to do?
if they choose to have fast and leaping skulks, upgrades of Leap is unlocked by khammander, but speed and distance is low to begin with, and the player needs to upgrade to get further and better abilities.
if they choose to have a fade that most people agree to be too OP currently at mid game, they need to spend both personal and team resources to get the fade to what it is currently, and also more time.
i don't know, just my 2 cents, beside the other fixable things already said earlier.
at least this way, it feels more like a real selection, where some being are the top skulk, fade or whatever of its class. (like how you always have a alpha wolf in a wolf pack), it would also force the aliens to carefully think if they want a totally specialized class for fast attacks, or a generic capable of other situations, or a tanky aliens game.
<!--quoteo(post=1955487:date=Jul 31 2012, 09:54 PM:name=ExistUnExist)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ExistUnExist @ Jul 31 2012, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if, for example, instead of just having aliens start out so strong with their higher lifeforms so early, make it so that they are both General and Personal upgradeable??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I'm reading your post right, you are suggesting that Aliens have to spend PRes to upgrade their lifeforms. And not just for things like Regen and Carapace, but also for enhanced versions of their basic abilities (Bite, Leap, Fade Attack, Max Energy, etc.).
This is very interesting, but already there is a huge PRes investment to become a higher lifeform. And trying to balance a variety of partial abilities and their upgraded versions sounds like a headache.
I do think though it's interesting to toy with a system where the lifeforms themselves are cheaper but upgrades cost PRes to allow more customization and become more powerful. A tradeoff between getting lots of early Fades versus later but more powerful Fades would be interesting. Plus it removes the pressure of "I just spent 50 Res on this lifeform, I HAVE to make it count" that prevent new players from learning crucial higher lifeforms.
IF this was done, I would limit the customization to the current Alien evolutions but boost their effectiveness a little. The research cost would also have to be decreased since Alien would have to spend PRes every time they wanted the ability again.
I'm just not sure there is the time nor manpower to properly balance this system.
<!--quoteo(post=1955476:date=Jul 31 2012, 07:16 PM:name=Classic319)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Classic319 @ Jul 31 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Off the topic a little bit, I do think marine commander is one of the most important tasks for winning of marines. I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, and always has been. Marines require good teamwork to win. Aliens only require good teamwork to overcome good marine teamwork. Otherwise aliens can win by just doing their own thing. It's a curse but also a blessing in some ways. A blessing because the average marine is more predisposed to work as a team if they are paired with compentent and active leadership. The reason they are so willing is because they've learned doing their own thing is a waste of time anyway. They end up craving and desiring leadership and teamwork to have fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1955476:date=Jul 31 2012, 07:16 PM:name=Classic319)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Classic319 @ Jul 31 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955476"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Off the topic a little bit, I do think marine commander is one of the most important tasks for winning of marines. I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, and always has been. Marines require good teamwork to win. Aliens only require good teamwork to overcome good marine teamwork. Otherwise aliens can win by just doing their own thing. Rather than be a liability, it's actually one of the advantages of NS because it's one of the few games where small unit teamwork, tactics, and central leadership are all considered a given as a matter of course, for lack of an ability to win otherwise. It's a curse but also a blessing in some ways. A blessing because the average marine is more predisposed to work as a team if they are paired with compentent and active leadership, so they can actually be at an advantage against aliens who are uncoordinated and not use to having to work together closely (although the alien commander in NS2 kind of nullifies this advantage to some extent).
<!--quoteo(post=1955482:date=Aug 1 2012, 04:43 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Aug 1 2012, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not completely true. While Aliens can get units around the map faster, their growth to take RTs is slower due to the requirements of Cysts. Plus in theory a squad of Marines should fend off an equal squad of Skulks, and thus should be able to hold together and have a flexible early expansion phase. Once more lifeforms pop and especially when Hive2 is up, Marines severely need to hunker down and gain mobility fast.
Granted, this is all theorycrafting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about build time, but time taken to return to an extractor and defend/attack it.
If a marine and skulk were sent repeatedly back to an extractor at equal distance, the problem is that the skulk would always get to it faster.
So in a situation where this occurs and when they meet 50% of the time they meet each one dies, the skull still gets to the extractor first and can start causing damage.
Also, if a skulk wins the fight it takes longer for the marine to return to that point in the map and therefore more damage is occurring throughout that period of time.
This theory is based on a perfect 'scientific' scenario, other game complexities aside it still favours aliens ability to traverse a map and cause damage, and not just to extractors.
I think this is entirely evident on public servers, therefore marines need a way to tackle alien movement.
<!--quoteo(post=1955510:date=Aug 1 2012, 10:22 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 1 2012, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a marine and skulk were sent repeatedly back to an extractor at equal distance, the problem is that the skulk would always get to it faster.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think so. Alien spawn time is way longer than marine spawn time.
<!--quoteo(post=1955528:date=Aug 1 2012, 11:06 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Aug 1 2012, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think so. Alien spawn time is way longer than marine spawn time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I still think that is irrelevant, because even if they spawn later aliens can still traverse the map quicker than marines. That is based on an equation that is spawn time, not spawn + distance and so is a set number that does not scale.
Anyway, my point was, perhaps marines should have abilities that focus on 'slowing' aliens or killing them if they risk certain routes. Rather than, 'if you enter the room, 5 sentrys start firing'.
They were not balanced in NS1, UWE still can't seem to balance them in NS2... to me that rings alarm bells, and perhaps multiple alternative options are more viable.
My theory is that aliens tend to be safer moving around the map, therefore come up with defensive structures for marines that either delay damage being taken by a structure OR cause aliens to take alternative routes.
The biggest reason I see for marine loss on public servers is because they have a handicap of a commander who is much more important, so teamplay is more difficult. Also, it is a lot easier to stretch your lines as marines than aliens. That is down to the simple fact that you can move up to defend the front line, or move between areas on the front line to defend it a lot faster than marines.
I'd personally love to see vents that are weldable, but can only be broken into from the side they were welded from, or mines that electrify themselves plus local structures, or perhaps a sentry that is so powerful, it essentially blocks a corridor off to skulks, Gorges and Lerks and only Fades can blink past or Onos power through (at high hp cost).
To me that makes for a more tactical gameplay, because it involves placement and forces a different tactic. Currently it is about how much damage a sentry causes within its own space.
Watch any video footage of NS1 v NS2 and NS2 is dark, there are lots of random explosions going on at times. The amount of times a firefight turns into a confusing visual mess is crazy.
You could easily clean this up in a number of ways, and re-inforce the player v player gameplay that everyone really loves.
<!--quoteo(post=1955423:date=Jul 31 2012, 11:08 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 31 2012, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955423"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you know what i noticed in this patch? marines are talking to each other a lot more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1955430:date=Aug 1 2012, 12:03 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 1 2012, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is at least part of why I suspect the win/loss ratio has gotten much better for marines this build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm reminded of NS1.0, where aliens were hilariously underpowered and had to become good much faster than the marines to have a chance of winning - it showed as balance improvements came along. Well, that's the impression I got anyway... competitive play results might contradict me.
<!--quoteo(post=1955510:date=Aug 1 2012, 04:22 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 1 2012, 04:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not talking about build time, but time taken to return to an extractor and defend/attack it.
If a marine and skulk were sent repeatedly back to an extractor at equal distance, the problem is that the skulk would always get to it faster.
So in a situation where this occurs and when they meet 50% of the time they meet each one dies, the skull still gets to the extractor first and can start causing damage.
Also, if a skulk wins the fight it takes longer for the marine to return to that point in the map and therefore more damage is occurring throughout that period of time.
This theory is based on a perfect 'scientific' scenario, other game complexities aside it still favours aliens ability to traverse a map and cause damage, and not just to extractors.
I think this is entirely evident on public servers, therefore marines need a way to tackle alien movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this analysis is flawed because good marines > good skulks in 1v1 situations in most areas of a map like summit. Until skulks get upgrades like leap and, to a lesser extent, carapace, marines are more powerful than skulks.
It's also flawed because marines can repair RTs with welders easier than gorges can heal up alien RTs. There is not always a gorge or he may be doing other things. Doing damage to an extractor but not killing it is often achieving nothing except wasting 20 seconds of a marine's time.
<!--quoteo(post=1955545:date=Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think that is irrelevant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? In your example you need to count this too. The alien needs longer to respawn, therefor comes later to the RT. I don't know if the times are balanced in a way, that the alien is faster or slower on a "middle-RT". But if aliens would rely on ambushs, they should be there faster. Also this isn't a symmetrical game. If the marines are stronger while defending (because of the ranged-advantage) but weaker when advancing, the aliens need to be faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1955545:date=Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... or perhaps a sentry that is so powerful, it essentially blocks a corridor off to skulks, Gorges and Lerks and only Fades can blink past or Onos power through (at high hp cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is literally not balance-able. If you have such a strong sentry every com would build at least two of them in every base. Before the sentries were nerved, the marine turtling with them was crazy. Even if a fade or onos attacks, the marines can kill them, as soon as they try to destroy the sentry. Please think further as to "Woah, a sentry like in aliens would be sooo cool." The builds were multiple sentries got put in every marine base wasn't fun. It was only luck, to overcome such a base. And not the slightest fun for the aliens.
But already we have several means of slowing the Alien advance. Sentry Turrets are a huge deterrent unless you can get behind them (vents/alt routes) or have higher lifeforms you can dedicate to clearing them. Even though a solo Skulk can kill a turret, the time it takes to nibble it and the damage it took to get to the blind spot severely weakens the Alien advance. This sort of area denial is the turret's specialty.
Mines also really help in that regard. Take damage from a mine and you're either dead or severely hurt. Sounds like an excellent deterrent.
Fundamentally I'm unsure why turrets aren't a sufficient deterrent to slow Alien movement.
Marine power grows exponentially with more players in your squad. Aliens combine linearly. So while Aliens can reach points on the map faster, they are less likely to win engagement with a group of Marines without support (higher lifeforms, prior harassment). I think this sort of balance is fine. Skulks are favored in 1v1 engagements, especially when you get the jump on them. But in a 2v2 situation Marines are favored. So while they are slower, Marines can force winning engagements while the Aliens probe for weak points not being covered on the map by the pressure team.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is literally not balance-able. If you have such a strong sentry every com would build at least two of them in every base. Before the sentries were nerved, the marine turtling with them was crazy. Even if a fade or onos attacks, the marines can kill them, as soon as they try to destroy the sentry. Please think further as to "Woah, a sentry like in aliens would be sooo cool." The builds were multiple sentries got put in every marine base wasn't fun. It was only luck, to overcome such a base. And not the slightest fun for the aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be if you had only one sentry available that basically acted as a wall, as well as alternative defensive structures.
I like the idea of sentrys but they just DONT work... Everyone complains if they are too weak, complains when they are too strong and hate them because they end up being spammed.
There is nothing worse than running into a room as an alien with 5 explosions going off, and sentrys with 100% accuracy firing at you from every direction.
But how about defensive structures that work as lethal obstacles, or just slow alien damage over time to structures? Surely people would prefer something similar to electrify or the suggestions I made earlier in the thread.
How is it that sentries managed to be useful but not broken in ns1? What is ns2 doing differently that makes them either useless or op, never in the middle? Is it just the turret factory mechanic instead of the power node mechanic?
IIRC they were rather underpowered in NS1, so only got used at lower levels of play... which worked out, since the aliens would be at those lower levels too, but yeah. They weren't really fine.
It was very much like the situation for TFC's sentry really, and that one just got plain upgraded in TF2 - but other game mechanics came in that allowed them to be easily defeated (stickies and ubers in particular). I recall Valve explaining they wanted the sentry to be able to do its job of area denial really well, but have clear weaknesses that can be exploited once you know of them (and that the sentry is there), which I think was also the idea behind the NS2 sentry redesign... unfortunately, the NS2 sentry isn't limited by players needing to be the Engineer class, which can <i>only </i>play defensively.
<!--quoteo(post=1955637:date=Aug 1 2012, 12:25 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 1 2012, 12:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it that sentries managed to be useful but not broken in ns1? What is ns2 doing differently that makes them either useless or op, never in the middle? Is it just the turret factory mechanic instead of the power node mechanic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My post on how NS1 sentries opearted as area-denial weapons: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119486&view=findpost&p=1955130" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1955130</a>
In short, larger maps (required to help keep region secure as you push other areas), high initial cost (the TF and require 3 turrets for proper coverage), the TF operating as a limiter on their spam, combined with their role in Sieges all made them useful in particular situations. But as mentioned, not cost efficient in pro play since 1-2 Marines could wipe several Aliens, faster response times, and forcing winning engagements around Hive 2 made locking a particular region down obsolete. Or doable via mines.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1955637:date=Aug 1 2012, 08:25 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 1 2012, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is it that sentries managed to be useful but not broken in ns1? What is ns2 doing differently that makes them either useless or op, never in the middle? Is it just the turret factory mechanic instead of the power node mechanic?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> They were reasonably powerful, but not cost-effective. So most of the time it wasn't worth it to use them -- you really only saw them used by noob comms or in very specific situations.
Comments
The biggest turn off for me and for those 90% competitive players (that’s like 100 players from NS and L4D) that I know who have tried NS2 is:
1. Marine movement.
2. Poor performance.
3. And the fact that there really isn't much to train for.
I try NS2 every build, I go public server to kill some skulks with lmg. Sure it's fun like in NS as long as you keep the skulks on distance, but once skulks get close the lottery starts and I get frustrated. I could fool most of public skulks in NS1 only using strafe and crouch keys, and this way bought some more shooting time to myself in melee distance. In NS2 marines seem to just start jumping (locking themselves to predictable movement pattern) around almost randomly in order to avoid bites. Marine’s movement just feels wrong and really heavy, it doesn't allow delicate touch. I don't care about bunnyhop, glide jump or double jump; I just want freaking strafe to work like it should. I don't know what is wrong in marine movement code, but UWE might want to increase strafing speed.
Of course marine movement and poor performance goes hand to hand. But because others already covered this topic I just want to say, don't ever underestimate impact of FPS. Obviously good framerate is more important for marines than aliens, because aiming need more delicate touch than alien movement. This should be common knowledge everyone who played NS1.
You can also ask yourself what is there to learn in NS2? It has 100% similar aiming system compared to NS1, but in NS1 everything are faster and smoother. So I get better training for aiming playing NS1. Movement in overall is still very sluggish; sure there is skulk's wallhop which is unique skill to learn. I haven't probably mastered it with few hours of playing skulk but I do it better than most. After all NS1 wallhop was much harder to master. But part from skulk’s wallhop NS2 fails miserable when you value overall movement. Of course there are tactics... But it's mostly know-how information and more dynamic tactical understanding (positioning, route blocking etc.) are similar to NS1. And then fanboys shouts that NS2 in more about teamwork than twitch skills. Not really, sprint allows marines to move too fast on map and destroys alien’s chance to regroup and ambush together. Marines can move to key location on map so fast that aliens have to rush everywhere and marines can just hold positions. It should be other way around! I definitely get better teamwork practice playing L4D than NS2.
So the player who has mastered melee vs. range game and has good tactical understanding doesn't really have much to learn in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954843:date=Jul 29 2012, 12:48 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 29 2012, 12:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954843"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a pretty serious gameplay issue actually. I've been thinking about writing a longer post about it for some time now. The combination of fast marine spawn times, sprint, slower skulks and smaller maps has pretty much turned the game into a zerg rush simulator rather than a thinking man's fps.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954984:date=Jul 30 2012, 03:29 AM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 30 2012, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954984"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think once the game is feature complete (1.0), it'll probably take 2-3 releases until it's super balanced. It must be hard to balance/listen to feedback when, I imagine, the playtester group is playtesting builds with EXO suits and the community has a version with all of the other changes minus the EXO suit.
For all we know, we are just not seeing the big picture.
Either way, if UWE is to meet the End of August/Early September deadline, they gotta throw us a feature complete version soon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954995:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:10 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 30 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Daphisto nailed it, and in much fewer words, too :-P
I get what you're saying ADHD, but your concerns aren't as helpful as the meat and potatoes, the actual feedback :
"the ideas of the community are taken seriously and melded with the genius of the developers."
<i>What are those, exactly?</i> The method of delivery of feedback is sub par imo for this beta - mostly originating from the forums, and even then the most useful feedback is buried under dozens of other angry posts.
Too bad there wasn't a consolidated list with issues and ideas that were voted on like the getsatisfaction bug reporting system.. would be such a better way of receiving feedback. The current system just makes some feel ignored - despite the value of their feedback.
I say, start collecting consolidated lists.. it shows the importance of certain subjects and actually collects everyone's input - and most of all its easy to digest and receive for the devs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954998:date=Jul 30 2012, 06:34 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 30 2012, 06:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954998"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since the movement system overhaul back around b190, actual acceleration was added (not hack movement anymore). Before the overhaul, you could change strafe direction almost on a dime and didn't get sucked into that blackhole of speed loss. After the overhaul, acceleration to max speed is now logarithmic so that it takes a full 500ms (400ms to get to 5 speed, 500ms to get 5.05) to actually get to full speed in the opposite strafing direction, causing the sluggish movement you describe. Unfortunately i don't think its going to be changed as it probably seems very smooth and 'immersive' to UWE. Not to mention the phobia most people seem to have with marine movement.
I think Sewlek has increased marine acceleration a bit since then, but yes it's still very clumsy and slow mostly due to acceleration to max being log (acceleration falling off too early) not linear which is immediately obvious when you try strafe movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some of the best posts of this thread for those people who skip to the last page.
It need only a few little tweaks here and there and then its ready to go.
As noone of of us (only playtester) saw the exo in action yet, i talk about the current situation.
Fact is: the losing team is complaining about how OP the other side is.
If Aliens lose then its cause: Shotty op, Jetpack fly to long, arc imba, sentry spam, armory spam, nanoshield-spam, ..
If Marines lose: Fade OP, Onos OP, cyst-spam, Hive-spam,..
This tells me, the game seem to be more balanced than most people think. Im sure most games won by a team that was only better than the other.
This is one thing, noone can balance.
But its easier to say xxx is OP instead: Well, the other team was the better one.
I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)
When aliens have the ability to travel quicker, they have an advantage. This is the BIGGEST cause of the marines inability to expand and control a map successfully, and you see it so often on public servers with the alien spread and the slow marine decline.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not completely true. While Aliens can get units around the map faster, their growth to take RTs is slower due to the requirements of Cysts. Plus in theory a squad of Marines should fend off an equal squad of Skulks, and thus should be able to hold together and have a flexible early expansion phase. Once more lifeforms pop and especially when Hive2 is up, Marines severely need to hunker down and gain mobility fast.
Granted, this is all theorycrafting...
i've been thinking
what if, for example, instead of just having aliens start out so strong with their higher lifeforms so early, make it so that they are both General and Personal upgradeable??
by which meaning, we know that Fade takes 50 res, Blink ability researched by Khammander, 2 hits to kill Armor 0 marine, have a lot of energy to do shadow stepping, blink, etc.
so what i meant is giving some changes, like how marines can go "BUY" something with resources, the aliens shouldn't get the upgrades for granted?
so, let's for example change it in such a way that, the aliens are capable of putting more than one same type "regen" building, up to level 3 (like marines), using TEAM RES.
but, the effect of regen is limited in each one.
Also, Energy usage of the aliens is increased, forcing them to need to "PERSONAL" upgrade extra energy bar/limit.
Instead of easily killing Armor 0 marines in two swipes, make it 3, but capable of upgrading the said claw weapon damage by spending personal RES?
this i believe, would force both players and khammander to choose carefully what type of gameplay they yearn to do?
if they choose to have fast and leaping skulks, upgrades of Leap is unlocked by khammander, but speed and distance is low to begin with, and the player needs to upgrade to get further and better abilities.
if they choose to have a fade that most people agree to be too OP currently at mid game, they need to spend both personal and team resources to get the fade to what it is currently, and also more time.
i don't know, just my 2 cents, beside the other fixable things already said earlier.
at least this way, it feels more like a real selection, where some being are the top skulk, fade or whatever of its class. (like how you always have a alpha wolf in a wolf pack), it would also force the aliens to carefully think if they want a totally specialized class for fast attacks, or a generic capable of other situations, or a tanky aliens game.
If I'm reading your post right, you are suggesting that Aliens have to spend PRes to upgrade their lifeforms. And not just for things like Regen and Carapace, but also for enhanced versions of their basic abilities (Bite, Leap, Fade Attack, Max Energy, etc.).
This is very interesting, but already there is a huge PRes investment to become a higher lifeform. And trying to balance a variety of partial abilities and their upgraded versions sounds like a headache.
I do think though it's interesting to toy with a system where the lifeforms themselves are cheaper but upgrades cost PRes to allow more customization and become more powerful. A tradeoff between getting lots of early Fades versus later but more powerful Fades would be interesting. Plus it removes the pressure of "I just spent 50 Res on this lifeform, I HAVE to make it count" that prevent new players from learning crucial higher lifeforms.
IF this was done, I would limit the customization to the current Alien evolutions but boost their effectiveness a little. The research cost would also have to be decreased since Alien would have to spend PRes every time they wanted the ability again.
I'm just not sure there is the time nor manpower to properly balance this system.
I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, and always has been. Marines require good teamwork to win. Aliens only require good teamwork to overcome good marine teamwork. Otherwise aliens can win by just doing their own thing.
It's a curse but also a blessing in some ways. A blessing because the average marine is more predisposed to work as a team if they are paired with compentent and active leadership. The reason they are so willing is because they've learned doing their own thing is a waste of time anyway. They end up craving and desiring leadership and teamwork to have fun.
I hope every marine commander should remember that they are not only for upgrading things and maintaining resources, but also for making tactics and therefore giving them orders, paths, giving them goal, objectives, so that means to communicate. Let marine players do what they wanna do is the easiest way to lose game. When they spreaded out without any goal or all together without any purpose, you lose all the RTs and lose the game.
As a big fan of RTS game, i almost always play as marine commander, it's damn tired after the game and i must take a rest. In this case, it could be a bit problematic, because it's too professional, but it's for me that much fun. And to swagger(forgive me), i've never lost as marine commander. Of course i played only 6 times in last few builds(after docking) as i am in life bit busy recently, but anyway never. The way to win was to give each every player of marines their job and orders. For example, almost 80% way of mine when i won as commander was to let couple of guys to defend 2nd entrance of the base, another guys to take other side of map and then take opposite side of the map with phase gate, then defend and have at least 5 extractors, research properly, and then rush, win, etc, it correspondes to situations. Anyway, however, lots of guys who tries to command are having trouble at multi tasking, that means they mostly forget to give each players order. I feel sorry to see lots of marine commanders do good job at researching but anyway lose the game, even he did good job taking whole map control but then lack of giving order lost all the extractors and lose etc.. NS2 marine commander is even harder than Starcraft and Company Of Heroes. To win at competitive or well-balanced game,, the man should be professional as hell :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true, and always has been. Marines require good teamwork to win. Aliens only require good teamwork to overcome good marine teamwork. Otherwise aliens can win by just doing their own thing. Rather than be a liability, it's actually one of the advantages of NS because it's one of the few games where small unit teamwork, tactics, and central leadership are all considered a given as a matter of course, for lack of an ability to win otherwise.
It's a curse but also a blessing in some ways. A blessing because the average marine is more predisposed to work as a team if they are paired with compentent and active leadership, so they can actually be at an advantage against aliens who are uncoordinated and not use to having to work together closely (although the alien commander in NS2 kind of nullifies this advantage to some extent).
Granted, this is all theorycrafting...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about build time, but time taken to return to an extractor and defend/attack it.
If a marine and skulk were sent repeatedly back to an extractor at equal distance, the problem is that the skulk would always get to it faster.
So in a situation where this occurs and when they meet 50% of the time they meet each one dies, the skull still gets to the extractor first and can start causing damage.
Also, if a skulk wins the fight it takes longer for the marine to return to that point in the map and therefore more damage is occurring throughout that period of time.
This theory is based on a perfect 'scientific' scenario, other game complexities aside it still favours aliens ability to traverse a map and cause damage, and not just to extractors.
I think this is entirely evident on public servers, therefore marines need a way to tackle alien movement.
I don't think so. Alien spawn time is way longer than marine spawn time.
I still think that is irrelevant, because even if they spawn later aliens can still traverse the map quicker than marines. That is based on an equation that is spawn time, not spawn + distance and so is a set number that does not scale.
Anyway, my point was, perhaps marines should have abilities that focus on 'slowing' aliens or killing them if they risk certain routes. Rather than, 'if you enter the room, 5 sentrys start firing'.
They were not balanced in NS1, UWE still can't seem to balance them in NS2... to me that rings alarm bells, and perhaps multiple alternative options are more viable.
My theory is that aliens tend to be safer moving around the map, therefore come up with defensive structures for marines that either delay damage being taken by a structure OR cause aliens to take alternative routes.
The biggest reason I see for marine loss on public servers is because they have a handicap of a commander who is much more important, so teamplay is more difficult. Also, it is a lot easier to stretch your lines as marines than aliens. That is down to the simple fact that you can move up to defend the front line, or move between areas on the front line to defend it a lot faster than marines.
I'd personally love to see vents that are weldable, but can only be broken into from the side they were welded from, or mines that electrify themselves plus local structures, or perhaps a sentry that is so powerful, it essentially blocks a corridor off to skulks, Gorges and Lerks and only Fades can blink past or Onos power through (at high hp cost).
To me that makes for a more tactical gameplay, because it involves placement and forces a different tactic. Currently it is about how much damage a sentry causes within its own space.
Watch any video footage of NS1 v NS2 and NS2 is dark, there are lots of random explosions going on at times. The amount of times a firefight turns into a confusing visual mess is crazy.
You could easily clean this up in a number of ways, and re-inforce the player v player gameplay that everyone really loves.
<!--quoteo(post=1955430:date=Aug 1 2012, 12:03 AM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Aug 1 2012, 12:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955430"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is at least part of why I suspect the win/loss ratio has gotten much better for marines this build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm reminded of NS1.0, where aliens were hilariously underpowered and had to become good much faster than the marines to have a chance of winning - it showed as balance improvements came along.
Well, that's the impression I got anyway... competitive play results might contradict me.
If a marine and skulk were sent repeatedly back to an extractor at equal distance, the problem is that the skulk would always get to it faster.
So in a situation where this occurs and when they meet 50% of the time they meet each one dies, the skull still gets to the extractor first and can start causing damage.
Also, if a skulk wins the fight it takes longer for the marine to return to that point in the map and therefore more damage is occurring throughout that period of time.
This theory is based on a perfect 'scientific' scenario, other game complexities aside it still favours aliens ability to traverse a map and cause damage, and not just to extractors.
I think this is entirely evident on public servers, therefore marines need a way to tackle alien movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this analysis is flawed because good marines > good skulks in 1v1 situations in most areas of a map like summit. Until skulks get upgrades like leap and, to a lesser extent, carapace, marines are more powerful than skulks.
It's also flawed because marines can repair RTs with welders easier than gorges can heal up alien RTs. There is not always a gorge or he may be doing other things. Doing damage to an extractor but not killing it is often achieving nothing except wasting 20 seconds of a marine's time.
Why? In your example you need to count this too. The alien needs longer to respawn, therefor comes later to the RT. I don't know if the times are balanced in a way, that the alien is faster or slower on a "middle-RT". But if aliens would rely on ambushs, they should be there faster. Also this isn't a symmetrical game. If the marines are stronger while defending (because of the ranged-advantage) but weaker when advancing, the aliens need to be faster.
<!--quoteo(post=1955545:date=Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Aug 1 2012, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1955545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... or perhaps a sentry that is so powerful, it essentially blocks a corridor off to skulks, Gorges and Lerks and only Fades can blink past or Onos power through (at high hp cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is literally not balance-able. If you have such a strong sentry every com would build at least two of them in every base. Before the sentries were nerved, the marine turtling with them was crazy. Even if a fade or onos attacks, the marines can kill them, as soon as they try to destroy the sentry. Please think further as to "Woah, a sentry like in aliens would be sooo cool." The builds were multiple sentries got put in every marine base wasn't fun. It was only luck, to overcome such a base. And not the slightest fun for the aliens.
Mines also really help in that regard. Take damage from a mine and you're either dead or severely hurt. Sounds like an excellent deterrent.
Fundamentally I'm unsure why turrets aren't a sufficient deterrent to slow Alien movement.
Marine power grows exponentially with more players in your squad. Aliens combine linearly. So while Aliens can reach points on the map faster, they are less likely to win engagement with a group of Marines without support (higher lifeforms, prior harassment). I think this sort of balance is fine. Skulks are favored in 1v1 engagements, especially when you get the jump on them. But in a 2v2 situation Marines are favored. So while they are slower, Marines can force winning engagements while the Aliens probe for weak points not being covered on the map by the pressure team.
It could be if you had only one sentry available that basically acted as a wall, as well as alternative defensive structures.
I like the idea of sentrys but they just DONT work... Everyone complains if they are too weak, complains when they are too strong and hate them because they end up being spammed.
There is nothing worse than running into a room as an alien with 5 explosions going off, and sentrys with 100% accuracy firing at you from every direction.
But how about defensive structures that work as lethal obstacles, or just slow alien damage over time to structures? Surely people would prefer something similar to electrify or the suggestions I made earlier in the thread.
That is my argument.
It was very much like the situation for TFC's sentry really, and that one just got plain upgraded in TF2 - but other game mechanics came in that allowed them to be easily defeated (stickies and ubers in particular).
I recall Valve explaining they wanted the sentry to be able to do its job of area denial really well, but have clear weaknesses that can be exploited once you know of them (and that the sentry is there), which I think was also the idea behind the NS2 sentry redesign... unfortunately, the NS2 sentry isn't limited by players needing to be the Engineer class, which can <i>only </i>play defensively.
My post on how NS1 sentries opearted as area-denial weapons: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119486&view=findpost&p=1955130" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...t&p=1955130</a>
In short, larger maps (required to help keep region secure as you push other areas), high initial cost (the TF and require 3 turrets for proper coverage), the TF operating as a limiter on their spam, combined with their role in Sieges all made them useful in particular situations. But as mentioned, not cost efficient in pro play since 1-2 Marines could wipe several Aliens, faster response times, and forcing winning engagements around Hive 2 made locking a particular region down obsolete. Or doable via mines.
They were reasonably powerful, but not cost-effective. So most of the time it wasn't worth it to use them -- you really only saw them used by noob comms or in very specific situations.