I second the advanced armory healing armor. It sucks when you have armor level 3 and you cant use it because your team is busy. Having to go back to main base to heal fully (or spend 20 to upgrade a forward AA) seems like it would run more smoothly.
<!--quoteo(post=1953781:date=Jul 25 2012, 09:55 PM:name=BynX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BynX @ Jul 25 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An upgrade to AA thats make possible to recover armor would be better I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1953781:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:55 AM:name=BynX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BynX @ Jul 26 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->An upgrade to AA thats make possible to recover armor would be better I guess.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. The armory repairing jetpacks and exos especially is a huge issue that was finally resolved. It made soloing with a jp a bit too easy when you can hug the armory for 2 seconds and youre good to go again. Now you need atleast one marine to weld you, so if the aliens dont kill your jp, atleast they buy some time with having 2 less marines on the field.
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.
For your convenience, here's a list of changes to the welder:
1) Required to repair broken Power Nodes (can no longer rebuild with E) 2) Required to repair Marine armor (Armory no longer replenish armor) 3) Flame damage type, now a great utility weapon against Cysts and Clogs
<!--quoteo(post=1953775:date=Jul 25 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 25 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i can actually play with smooth frames again :3<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dunno what you're talkin about, I get ~30 frames on parts of tram and 20-30 frames on some parts of docking (I hate mineshaft too much to play it/pay attention to frames on it)... and I have a 4.7ghz processor X_x
<!--quoteo(post=1953796:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:59 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 26 2012, 05:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953796"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dunno what you're talkin about, I get ~30 frames on parts of tram and 20-30 frames on some parts of docking (I hate mineshaft too much to play it/pay attention to frames on it)... and I have a 4.7ghz processor X_x<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Processor doesn't matter, it's your GPU.
I used to get 40-60 FPS back in <i><b>alpha</i></b>
<!--quoteo(post=1953785:date=Jul 26 2012, 01:08 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 26 2012, 01:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. The armory repairing jetpacks and exos especially is a huge issue that was finally resolved. It made soloing with a jp a bit too easy when you can hug the armory for 2 seconds and youre good to go again. Now you need atleast one marine to weld you, so if the aliens dont kill your jp, atleast they buy some time with having 2 less marines on the field.
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really wasn't a great change and here's why:
1) It's tedious. 2) There is no gameplay depth gained from it. 3) Aliens (specially fades) dominate marines without armor. A fade, which is already incredibly powerful, can easily burn armor down and then kill any jetpack marine. Stopping to weld is a death sentence. 4) In pub play, the above issues are compounded by the lack of communication and coordination.
This change is terrible for any small game play (like competitive 6v6). It works in 8v8 and 9v9 pub play because someone always has a welder, but it fails in competitive play. It further discourages any small marine group or ninja play.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
Rant, if you are getting 30 fps with 4.7Ghz and a 570.. something is terribly wrong with your setup somehow. I'm running 4 ghz with a 570 and get a steady 50-70. Heavy combat sometimes dips just below 50. Feel free to PM me your specs if you'd like help troubleshooting.
On topic: to gorgeous, while i remain <b>undecided </b>still on the matter, ns1 armories didn't restore armor, we can always balance things around such a change, though may not be necessary and finally its no more tedious or time consuming than humping an armory - stopping for either would be a death sentence. There's plenty of benefits that come from this as well, such as the ability to restore armor on the frontlines or in between battles without the cost or need of an armory, and in theory (i havent seen an impact yet) it should assist slightly in turtling.
I do, however completely agree with the lack of coordination and communication - i have been the most vocal about this needing to be addressed before implementing this change - but it went through regardless, with assurances from the devs that they fully agree, are aware, and will be addressing it soon enough. Many changes in distance and ease of welding have already been implemented.. but we still need that ease of coordination such as radio commands, visual indicators that someone is trying to weld you, etc. but they're on it.
have yet to try the patch, but armories not restoring armor sounds kinda annoying. i guess the idea is to nerf forward armories? or is it to nerf jetpacks? i support the idea of having advanced armories restoring armor (without a tech upgrade) as you will not see those at the very front (and if you do, it is quite some res at stake)
<!--quoteo(post=1953799:date=Jul 26 2012, 04:05 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953799"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It really wasn't a great change and here's why:
1) It's tedious. 2) There is no gameplay depth gained from it. 3) Aliens (specially fades) dominate marines without armor. A fade, which is already incredibly powerful, can easily burn armor down and then kill any jetpack marine. Stopping to weld is a death sentence. 4) In pub play, the above issues are compounded by the lack of communication and coordination.
This change is terrible for any small game play (like competitive 6v6). It works in 8v8 and 9v9 pub play because someone always has a welder, but it fails in competitive play. It further discourages any small marine group or ninja play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. Especially point number 4. I always thought forward armoury plays were a nice addition from ns1 type gameplay. It actually got rid of alot of tedium and smoothed pub gameplay out alot by creating focal points.
Also, it wouldn't be so much of a problem if marines had the same mobility as in ns1, interp was much lower, shotgun fired faster, and weapons switched faster so you could actually work to keep your armour for longer. I fear this change also makes armour 2-3 relatively bad untill much much later (less viable options) but we shall see. a1/w3 we meet again!
The change to armor, and the change to power nodes, which now requires every marine to have a welder, is too much in my opinion, I could live with the power nodes requiring welding, but having to check other players health all the time as well, and weld half the time is not fun. I think armor should be able to give armor back. It really cripples marine team, and add in a gorg bilebombing, it gets too much.
Secondly there seems to be a problem with buildings not getting power, from restored power nodes. We had a pg and extractor go down in a room, and the power along with in, we rebuild the pg and extractor first, and power node was welded back up last. The buildings didn't get power. We dropped a power pack, but it only supplied the pg. This needs to be fixed.
But hit registration seems very good now, and performance looks fine, so the game is playable, but some of the balance/game changes are not really working as they should.
<!--quoteo(post=1953802:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:37 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 26 2012, 02:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On topic: to gorgeous, while i remain <b>undecided </b>still on the matter, ns1 armories didn't restore armor, we can always balance things around such a change, though may not be necessary and finally its no more tedious or time consuming than humping an armory - stopping for either would be a death sentence. There's plenty of benefits that come from this as well, such as the ability to restore armor on the frontlines or in between battles without the cost or need of an armory, and in theory (i havent seen an impact yet) it should assist slightly in turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those benefits already existed, though. You could already restore armor on the front lines or without an armory simply by buying a welder anyway. The change added nothing but another tedious mechanic to the game.
Armory humping can be fixed by decreasing the rate at which health and armor is healed.
Since you apparently have to weld powernodes aswell and because you can buy it yourself, theres no excuses for not having a 5pres welder with you. In older builds no one ever had a welder so you have to run back and forth between armories all the time to repair. Now everyone should be having one so if anything, it makes it less tedious. Armor welding speed is also faster. Now just make it slot4 so you dont have to throw it around to use the axe.
Most of the time the only problem in NS1 was that the comm didnt drop enough welders for everyone, but thats a non issue here. Once they add welding request i dont think there will be problems even in public.
Also i really dont know how it makes ninjaing any more difficult. How did you repair your armor before? Running back to armory thats at the other side of the map. Now theres a higher chance to get welding on the field.
I dont see why it makes armor 3 any less powerful unless youre playing with retards, but doesnt that make everything less powerful? I do agree with elodeas points about marine movement and weapon switch speeds tho. Interpolation and all the other delays/bad performance/bad hitreg obviously have to be fixed or anything the game has wont really matter.
I'm sure it will be mentioned in the change notes, but the interpolation delay has been reduced by 50 ms in this patch.
As for people not enjoying the welder teamplay, just sounds like growing pains to me. After months of armory humping I'm pretty happy to see this change. The powernode change not so much though because of the pretty glaring early game consequence of losing a powernode in base basically being a GG.
<!--quoteo(post=1953816:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:59 AM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Jul 26 2012, 02:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953816"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure it will be mentioned in the change notes, but the interpolation delay has been reduced by 50 ms in this patch.
As for people not enjoying the welder teamplay, just sounds like growing pains to me. After months of armory humping I'm pretty happy to see this change. The powernode change not so much though because of the pretty glaring early game consequence of losing a powernode in base basically being a GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But destroying power nodes wasn't worth the time as a alien. They were rebuild within seconds. It was even problematic to attack a powernode in the marine base, even with the rebuild delay. If you are a onos which is only able to take out the powernode and die short after this you have gained nearly nothing.
i didn't get much of a performance gain (if any) but the hitreg seems to have improved (difficult for me to estimate this though) which is very nice. the powernode-welding change seems nice. it always bothered me that leaving powernodes at 1% was often much more effective than destroying them...
even if your armor is significantly lowered while you are away from base, veeery few people will bother going back (even if they'd get their armor back) because it's simply taking too long. imo, the armor restore was only relevant for forward armories (and i agree that was a bit too powerful) or if you were hit while very close to the base (or even inside your base, attacked by some random skulk). it can simply take veeery long to get back to the main base, restoring your armor and then going back into action. welders should still be much more effective in the field if you only allow advanced armories to restore the armor.
personally, i am bothered by the fact that you can end up in your main base being weaker than you were right after spawning. this just feels very odd... and if you respawn during a marine assault, this might be a major disadvantage if you successfully defended your base against some single attacker (happens rather often) as you might have to defend another extractor far away from the front which means you will be unable to meet someone to weld you...
on the other hand, this _might_ improve teamplay in the long run.
I really like that the armory no longer restores armour.
The power node change however is not well thought out. Aliens can destroy power nodes at any time in the game, the same should be true for marines repairing them.
<!--quoteo(post=1953814:date=Jul 26 2012, 03:31 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 26 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Since you apparently have to weld powernodes aswell and because you can buy it yourself, theres no excuses for not having a 5pres welder with you. In older builds no one ever had a welder so you have to run back and forth between armories all the time to repair. Now everyone should be having one so if anything, it makes it less tedious. Armor welding speed is also faster. Now just make it slot4 so you dont have to throw it around to use the axe.
Most of the time the only problem in NS1 was that the comm didnt drop enough welders for everyone, but thats a non issue here. Once they add welding request i dont think there will be problems even in public.
Also i really dont know how it makes ninjaing any more difficult. How did you repair your armor before? Running back to armory thats at the other side of the map. Now theres a higher chance to get welding on the field.
I dont see why it makes armor 3 any less powerful unless youre playing with retards, but doesnt that make everything less powerful? I do agree with elodeas points about marine movement and weapon switch speeds tho. Interpolation and all the other delays/bad performance/bad hitreg obviously have to be fixed or anything the game has wont really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what's the benefit?
All it did was make fades even more overpowered. You saw how badly this played in ns2b. Sure, you can balance around the new armories not healing armor, but why? There is no added benefit from changing this mechanic but there is noticeable downside.
So they're going to make marines even harder to play? When the marine win rate in pub games is at least below the 45%? Doesn't seem like they thought this through, or maybe they finally addressed a truck ton of other issues elsewhere to even it out. Either way, between this and the power node change, welders pretty much become mandatory. Not sure if that's really such a good idea. (Welders should allow you to build power nodes faster, not be a complete necessity. Where's the commander's choice in all this?)
This is why it would be nice to get a full change log, now we get these skewed representations of reality. Hope they fixed sentries at least.
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
How about regen not giving armor back but only crags?!
What a disappointment to me to hear that change :S It seems that nerfing marines is always the best solution for you... even if the new powernode mechanic can be intuitive, the armory nerf will spoil a part of the game which is the less than 8v8. When you siege a hive (without spamming anything), you need to get back your armor or you will be killed 2 secondes later, and the solution UWE found is: what about making the boring and nerf marines again!
- YOU said that you don't want to have people waiting or during boring jobs in the game: THAT is what you implemented just now, to need a guy welding everybody in strikes =>>> boring
- As i said, 4v4, 5v5, and maybe 6v6, 7v7 are impossible to play as marine because you simply can't have 2 people next to you to hold a place. THE SERVERS ARE NOT FULL ALL THE TIME!!!
- As commander i always dropped armories in forward positions to allow my men to get a chance to hold without my attention. Now dropping an armory is quite useless because no armor and health or not, you WILL be killed instantly by skulks and fades... Very difficult early games for marines, which were already hard enough!
- Welding a powernode to rebuild is intuitive but the time before you can rebuild it after it has been killed should be suppressed or lowered.
- So you made a secondary item a must have... Ok, but don't make it black or white, find a good middle to the importance of the welder ;)
Armories had a huge importance before, as they deserve to be! It was unnecessary to nerf them... You made the welder important enough with the powernodes! Maybe apply this feature only to GPs and incoming Exos :) but not for the footmen!
Also, knifes are much more effective in taking out alien structures. With welders almost mandatory, it means marines will have a harder time taking out RTs and other alien structures. (Or be forced to waste ammo)
I would agree the weld to restore armour feature should only be in place for exos. It could see it working out on powernodes I suppose. (That alone would pretty much make them a mandatory upgrade early on anyway)
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
I don't know about the pnode change, but I love the armory change. Armor repairing promoted excessive armory humping and forward armories repairing armor was a balancing nightmare (with the relative extreme power of armor upgrades, aliens need to have an advantage in wearing down marines through free healing -- adding free healing for marines ruins that) and creates very static gameplay (marines camping around the forward armory).
Looking forward to trying out the patch when I get back home in a few days. The last few patches have all been big steps in the right direction and I hope this is a continuation of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1953842:date=Jul 26 2012, 06:31 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 06:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Great armory change. Armor repairing promoted excessive armory humping and forward armories repairing armor was a balancing nightmare (with the relative extreme power of armor upgrades, aliens need to have advantage in wearing down marines through free healing -- adding free healing for marines ruins that) and creates very stativ gameplay (marines camping around the forward armory).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is in ease of use and obnoxiousness in the game mechanics. Having to constantly rely on teammates to think ahead (buying a welder) and then stop to help you for your own survivability is frustrating in pubs. Adding an extra element of human interaction to determine a player's health pool just increases the complexity of the balance while adding absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Making a mechanic more complex for the sake of nostalgia is not a good decision.
There is nothing about the previous armory that makes anything static, nor do aliens need any more advantage in wearing down marines. They already have the advantage of being able to rely on regen and mobility to wear down marine pushes. Forcing welders into armor repair adds nothing of benefit to marine versus alien combat, it just makes mechanics more tedious for individual marines.
Can mechanics be balanced around welder-only armor healing? Yes. It can. Just like it can be balanced around armory based armor healing. But if you truly believed in KISS mechanics, this isn't it. You're making it more complex for no benefit in gameplay.
I would have to disagree with the armor/armory change as well.
While the immediate negative reactions to it could in fact be considered growing pains, I think it truly does add tedious-ness to the marine playstyle. A lot, when you consider the powernode change went in at the same time.
Right now when I play the game I feel I have to work so. much. harder. to win a game as a marine when compared to aliens. There are underlying problems that the dev's have not even tried to address in this game. Marines more or less forfeiting map control when leap timings come out. Leap skulks are arguably the most effective unit in all of NS2, have the highest skill floor and one of the lower skill ceilings. Good fades still cannot be killed. Vortex is still a completely imbalanced ability. Killing cysts is still a snore-worthy chore. There is no scaling for aliens so things like Carapace are too strong early game and arguably weak late game. Feint is still broken on Fades.
When they make changes like this one to the marines I feel like they are trying to fix something that ain't broke. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You could probably balance the game around either option, it's just that one road makes the game all-around more enjoyable and the other adds onto a list of chores marines have to do. I'm not saying to straight up revert the change, armory healing/repair rate was too fast imo. But to eliminate it entirely seems like overkill, and for me personally I find the game less enjoyable because of it. And as GORGEous said, I really don't think it contributes to any kind of depth to the game. It's just tedious and annoying having to rely completely on someone else knowing what to do and when to do it.
my suggestion: put armory armor healing back in the game, and reduce the amount that both HP and AP are regained by 25-50% to reduce the effectiveness of armory humping.
Comments
this +1
No. The armory repairing jetpacks and exos especially is a huge issue that was finally resolved. It made soloing with a jp a bit too easy when you can hug the armory for 2 seconds and youre good to go again. Now you need atleast one marine to weld you, so if the aliens dont kill your jp, atleast they buy some time with having 2 less marines on the field.
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.
1) Required to repair broken Power Nodes (can no longer rebuild with E)
2) Required to repair Marine armor (Armory no longer replenish armor)
3) Flame damage type, now a great utility weapon against Cysts and Clogs
Dunno what you're talkin about, I get ~30 frames on parts of tram and 20-30 frames on some parts of docking (I hate mineshaft too much to play it/pay attention to frames on it)... and I have a 4.7ghz processor X_x
Processor doesn't matter, it's your GPU.
I used to get 40-60 FPS back in <i><b>alpha</i></b>
I used to get 40-60 FPS back in <i><b>alpha</i></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
gtx570
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It really wasn't a great change and here's why:
1) It's tedious.
2) There is no gameplay depth gained from it.
3) Aliens (specially fades) dominate marines without armor. A fade, which is already incredibly powerful, can easily burn armor down and then kill any jetpack marine. Stopping to weld is a death sentence.
4) In pub play, the above issues are compounded by the lack of communication and coordination.
This change is terrible for any small game play (like competitive 6v6). It works in 8v8 and 9v9 pub play because someone always has a welder, but it fails in competitive play. It further discourages any small marine group or ninja play.
I'm running 4 ghz with a 570 and get a steady 50-70. Heavy combat sometimes dips just below 50.
Feel free to PM me your specs if you'd like help troubleshooting.
On topic:
to gorgeous, while i remain <b>undecided </b>still on the matter, ns1 armories didn't restore armor, we can always balance things around such a change, though may not be necessary and finally its no more tedious or time consuming than humping an armory - stopping for either would be a death sentence. There's plenty of benefits that come from this as well, such as the ability to restore armor on the frontlines or in between battles without the cost or need of an armory, and in theory (i havent seen an impact yet) it should assist slightly in turtling.
I do, however completely agree with the lack of coordination and communication - i have been the most vocal about this needing to be addressed before implementing this change - but it went through regardless, with assurances from the devs that they fully agree, are aware, and will be addressing it soon enough. Many changes in distance and ease of welding have already been implemented.. but we still need that ease of coordination such as radio commands, visual indicators that someone is trying to weld you, etc. but they're on it.
1) It's tedious.
2) There is no gameplay depth gained from it.
3) Aliens (specially fades) dominate marines without armor. A fade, which is already incredibly powerful, can easily burn armor down and then kill any jetpack marine. Stopping to weld is a death sentence.
4) In pub play, the above issues are compounded by the lack of communication and coordination.
This change is terrible for any small game play (like competitive 6v6). It works in 8v8 and 9v9 pub play because someone always has a welder, but it fails in competitive play. It further discourages any small marine group or ninja play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1. Especially point number 4. I always thought forward armoury plays were a nice addition from ns1 type gameplay. It actually got rid of alot of tedium and smoothed pub gameplay out alot by creating focal points.
Also, it wouldn't be so much of a problem if marines had the same mobility as in ns1, interp was much lower, shotgun fired faster, and weapons switched faster so you could actually work to keep your armour for longer. I fear this change also makes armour 2-3 relatively bad untill much much later (less viable options) but we shall see. a1/w3 we meet again!
Secondly there seems to be a problem with buildings not getting power, from restored power nodes. We had a pg and extractor go down in a room, and the power along with in, we rebuild the pg and extractor first, and power node was welded back up last. The buildings didn't get power. We dropped a power pack, but it only supplied the pg. This needs to be fixed.
But hit registration seems very good now, and performance looks fine, so the game is playable, but some of the balance/game changes are not really working as they should.
to gorgeous, while i remain <b>undecided </b>still on the matter, ns1 armories didn't restore armor, we can always balance things around such a change, though may not be necessary and finally its no more tedious or time consuming than humping an armory - stopping for either would be a death sentence. There's plenty of benefits that come from this as well, such as the ability to restore armor on the frontlines or in between battles without the cost or need of an armory, and in theory (i havent seen an impact yet) it should assist slightly in turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those benefits already existed, though. You could already restore armor on the front lines or without an armory simply by buying a welder anyway. The change added nothing but another tedious mechanic to the game.
Armory humping can be fixed by decreasing the rate at which health and armor is healed.
Most of the time the only problem in NS1 was that the comm didnt drop enough welders for everyone, but thats a non issue here. Once they add welding request i dont think there will be problems even in public.
Also i really dont know how it makes ninjaing any more difficult. How did you repair your armor before? Running back to armory thats at the other side of the map. Now theres a higher chance to get welding on the field.
I dont see why it makes armor 3 any less powerful unless youre playing with retards, but doesnt that make everything less powerful? I do agree with elodeas points about marine movement and weapon switch speeds tho. Interpolation and all the other delays/bad performance/bad hitreg obviously have to be fixed or anything the game has wont really matter.
As for people not enjoying the welder teamplay, just sounds like growing pains to me. After months of armory humping I'm pretty happy to see this change. The powernode change not so much though because of the pretty glaring early game consequence of losing a powernode in base basically being a GG.
As for people not enjoying the welder teamplay, just sounds like growing pains to me. After months of armory humping I'm pretty happy to see this change. The powernode change not so much though because of the pretty glaring early game consequence of losing a powernode in base basically being a GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But destroying power nodes wasn't worth the time as a alien. They were rebuild within seconds. It was even problematic to attack a powernode in the marine base, even with the rebuild delay. If you are a onos which is only able to take out the powernode and die short after this you have gained nearly nothing.
the powernode-welding change seems nice. it always bothered me that leaving powernodes at 1% was often much more effective than destroying them...
even if your armor is significantly lowered while you are away from base, veeery few people will bother going back (even if they'd get their armor back) because it's simply taking too long.
imo, the armor restore was only relevant for forward armories (and i agree that was a bit too powerful) or if you were hit while very close to the base (or even inside your base, attacked by some random skulk). it can simply take veeery long to get back to the main base, restoring your armor and then going back into action. welders should still be much more effective in the field if you only allow advanced armories to restore the armor.
personally, i am bothered by the fact that you can end up in your main base being weaker than you were right after spawning. this just feels very odd... and if you respawn during a marine assault, this might be a major disadvantage if you successfully defended your base against some single attacker (happens rather often) as you might have to defend another extractor far away from the front which means you will be unable to meet someone to weld you...
on the other hand, this _might_ improve teamplay in the long run.
The power node change however is not well thought out.
Aliens can destroy power nodes at any time in the game, the same should be true for marines repairing them.
Most of the time the only problem in NS1 was that the comm didnt drop enough welders for everyone, but thats a non issue here. Once they add welding request i dont think there will be problems even in public.
Also i really dont know how it makes ninjaing any more difficult. How did you repair your armor before? Running back to armory thats at the other side of the map. Now theres a higher chance to get welding on the field.
I dont see why it makes armor 3 any less powerful unless youre playing with retards, but doesnt that make everything less powerful? I do agree with elodeas points about marine movement and weapon switch speeds tho. Interpolation and all the other delays/bad performance/bad hitreg obviously have to be fixed or anything the game has wont really matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So what's the benefit?
All it did was make fades even more overpowered. You saw how badly this played in ns2b. Sure, you can balance around the new armories not healing armor, but why? There is no added benefit from changing this mechanic but there is noticeable downside.
This is why it would be nice to get a full change log, now we get these skewed representations of reality. Hope they fixed sentries at least.
What a disappointment to me to hear that change :S It seems that nerfing marines is always the best solution for you... even if the new powernode mechanic can be intuitive, the armory nerf will spoil a part of the game which is the less than 8v8. When you siege a hive (without spamming anything), you need to get back your armor or you will be killed 2 secondes later, and the solution UWE found is: what about making the boring and nerf marines again!
- YOU said that you don't want to have people waiting or during boring jobs in the game: THAT is what you implemented just now, to need a guy welding everybody in strikes =>>> boring
- As i said, 4v4, 5v5, and maybe 6v6, 7v7 are impossible to play as marine because you simply can't have 2 people next to you to hold a place. THE SERVERS ARE NOT FULL ALL THE TIME!!!
- As commander i always dropped armories in forward positions to allow my men to get a chance to hold without my attention. Now dropping an armory is quite useless because no armor and health or not, you WILL be killed instantly by skulks and fades... Very difficult early games for marines, which were already hard enough!
- Welding a powernode to rebuild is intuitive but the time before you can rebuild it after it has been killed should be suppressed or lowered.
- So you made a secondary item a must have... Ok, but don't make it black or white, find a good middle to the importance of the welder ;)
Armories had a huge importance before, as they deserve to be! It was unnecessary to nerf them... You made the welder important enough with the powernodes! Maybe apply this feature only to GPs and incoming Exos :) but not for the footmen!
I would agree the weld to restore armour feature should only be in place for exos. It could see it working out on powernodes I suppose. (That alone would pretty much make them a mandatory upgrade early on anyway)
Looking forward to trying out the patch when I get back home in a few days. The last few patches have all been big steps in the right direction and I hope this is a continuation of that.
The problem is in ease of use and obnoxiousness in the game mechanics. Having to constantly rely on teammates to think ahead (buying a welder) and then stop to help you for your own survivability is frustrating in pubs. Adding an extra element of human interaction to determine a player's health pool just increases the complexity of the balance while adding absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Making a mechanic more complex for the sake of nostalgia is not a good decision.
There is nothing about the previous armory that makes anything static, nor do aliens need any more advantage in wearing down marines. They already have the advantage of being able to rely on regen and mobility to wear down marine pushes. Forcing welders into armor repair adds nothing of benefit to marine versus alien combat, it just makes mechanics more tedious for individual marines.
Can mechanics be balanced around welder-only armor healing? Yes. It can. Just like it can be balanced around armory based armor healing. But if you truly believed in KISS mechanics, this isn't it. You're making it more complex for no benefit in gameplay.
While the immediate negative reactions to it could in fact be considered growing pains, I think it truly does add tedious-ness to the marine playstyle. A lot, when you consider the powernode change went in at the same time.
Right now when I play the game I feel I have to work so. much. harder. to win a game as a marine when compared to aliens. There are underlying problems that the dev's have not even tried to address in this game. Marines more or less forfeiting map control when leap timings come out. Leap skulks are arguably the most effective unit in all of NS2, have the highest skill floor and one of the lower skill ceilings. Good fades still cannot be killed. Vortex is still a completely imbalanced ability. Killing cysts is still a snore-worthy chore. There is no scaling for aliens so things like Carapace are too strong early game and arguably weak late game. Feint is still broken on Fades.
When they make changes like this one to the marines I feel like they are trying to fix something that ain't broke. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You could probably balance the game around either option, it's just that one road makes the game all-around more enjoyable and the other adds onto a list of chores marines have to do. I'm not saying to straight up revert the change, armory healing/repair rate was too fast imo. But to eliminate it entirely seems like overkill, and for me personally I find the game less enjoyable because of it. And as GORGEous said, I really don't think it contributes to any kind of depth to the game. It's just tedious and annoying having to rely completely on someone else knowing what to do and when to do it.
my suggestion: put armory armor healing back in the game, and reduce the amount that both HP and AP are regained by 25-50% to reduce the effectiveness of armory humping.
this makes welders an option, not a must