All it did was make fades even more overpowered. You saw how badly this played in ns2b. Sure, you can balance around the new armories not healing armor, but why? There is no added benefit from changing this mechanic but there is noticeable downside.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2b changed fade health, the blink and a lot of other stuff too, and i played it 1 or 2 rounds so i didnt really form much of an opinion about armory repairs from there. In my opinion armory repairing armor was not balanced at all to begin with. Especially at sieges it was very hard to kill the marines because they got fresh armor with no drawback. And tbh i much rather weld/get welded by team mate than run between the frontline and armory all the time.
Shadowsteps really fast acceleration and speed with this tickrate and overall performance is the bigger problem with the fade, with (almost) invisible blink adding to it. It was very hard to kill a fade in older builds outside of instagibbing with 2-3 shotguns, but now with more health and armor its just much harder.
I see it as a benefit for the marines in the long run. Theres a much higher probability to get welded and receive 2 medpacks in the field instead of having to run to pg and go to base and hump an armory now. No one ever bought welders before, but now the game pretty much forces it. I think its for the better.
This patch isn't completely bad...it got rid of nano construct and it seems like hit registration is a little better. Not sure I noticed an increase in FPS...maybe though.
The welder thing is an absolute nightmare. Aliens were overpowered before this patch and now they're just more overpowered. I just don't get it. So aliens can retreat to their hive and heal up completely, get regen and heal up anywhere completely, or hang out on infestation and slowly heal up completely--but marines have to rely on a teammate to do these things? So why shouldn't aliens need a gorge to regain armor? Not that I'm saying do that, because I think that's a terrible idea too. Slowing down the armor regen rate would do the job just fine I think.
Another point I felt like hammering on while I'm ranting is that sentries are still too worthless. A whip (especially upgraded) is so much more durable than a sentry. Where's the balance in that? I'm not even saying beef up the sentry turrets...I'm just saying even them out with the whips. As it is the sentries are about as weak as a hydra that hasn't matured. At least I feel like I put in about equal effort destroying them.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1953849:date=Jul 26 2012, 11:42 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953849"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making a mechanic more complex for the sake of nostalgia is not a good decision.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true. Several posters have identified exactly why this is a good change -- none of which have anything to do with ns1 nostalgia.
Having full armor us not a necessity for marine success, neither is welding. Painting this as a change that leads to some sort of weldomania where marines have to stand around welding all the time is disingenuous at best.
Removing a source of armor healing is, if anything, furthering KISS.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having full armor us not a necessity for marine success,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are kidding right? Try running around without full armour once the second hive is up. The moment leap skulks are in play, and fades, and spike lerks, you may as well just roll over and die if you have no armour. If these are the kind of opinions that fuel NS 2's balance and design direction then I quite frankly don't have high hopes for the state of this game's balance on release day.
I agree power nodes needed a change. I think powernodes should be rebuilt at a slower pace (ala the pace of a arms lab / robotics factory). The time taken means you gain a larger advantage. I also agree to a point with armourys needing an upgrade to regen armour (so perhaps you cant just drop a forward armoury and get armour back asap). Alternatively if you have a welder and weld nothing you weld yourself needs to be an option. You really cant rely on pub players. (welding yourself is perhaps worse than armoury though).
I also would like to see the welder be a 4th slot item. The knife is so useful in killing structures to lose it hurts and to drop kill something and pick back up is bothersome.
I guess we shouldn't waste our time with armor upgrades then. Might as well just remove that option from the game altogether since it really isn't needed!
A marine without armor goes down to a skulk in 2 bites. A fade in 1. There's no time to weld up when ###### hits the fan aliens can switch out while their team is still attacking and regen really quick before coming back to rape some more. I see no way this can possibly be considered fair. Not to mention - ALIENS WERE ALREADY OVERPOWERED! I can't stress that point enough. I mean seriously, aliens are OP and you decide to nerf the marines? It's like dividing by zero.
<!--quoteo(post=1953857:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:01 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 07:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953857"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true. Several posters have identified exactly why this is a good change -- none of which have anything to do with ns1 nostalgia.
Having full armor us not a necessity for marine success, neither is welding. Painting this as a change that leads to some sort of weldomania where marines have to stand around welding all the time is disingenuous at best.
Removing a source of armor healing is, if anything, furthering KISS.
The rest of your post has already been addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1953862:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:09 PM:name=deathmonger87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathmonger87 @ Jul 26 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953862"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess we shouldn't waste our time with armor upgrades then. Might as well just remove that option from the game altogether since it really isn't needed!
A marine without armor goes down to a skulk in 2 bites. A fade in 1. There's no time to weld up when ###### hits the fan aliens can switch out while their team is still attacking and regen really quick before coming back to rape some more. I see no way this can possibly be considered fair. Not to mention - ALIENS WERE ALREADY OVERPOWERED! I can't stress that point enough. I mean seriously, aliens are OP and you decide to nerf the marines? It's like dividing by zero.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor upgrades are just as usefull than before, even moreso because of the 10000% higher chance of field repair.
I do agree with you about regeneration for aliens tho. it takes about 10 seconds to be at full health again anywhere on the field. Completely removes a lot of the most intense moments from the game, like escaping to a vent or something as a higher lifeform and then quickly escaping before the marines trap you in with 10hp left. Now you just wait 10 seconds and youre good to go. Also the 3 seconds delay before the uber regen speed kicks in is way too little.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1953851:date=Jul 26 2012, 11:46 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 26 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When they make changes like this one to the marines I feel like they are trying to fix something that ain't broke.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Armories healing armor is actually broken, for the reasons mentioned by myself and many other posters in this thread. You correctly identify that it helps compensate for other issues with the game, but wouldn't you rather see those addressed instead of covering it up with a band-aid that comes with its own set of problems?
I agree that welding in itself doesn't add depth. I want(ed) armor healing gone because I believe it introduces serious gameplay problems that its benefits don't warrant.
<!--quoteo(post=1953866:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953866"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Armories healing is actually broken, for the reasons mentioned by myself and many other posters in this thread. You correctly identify that it help compensate for other issues with the game, but wouldn't you rather see those addressed instead of covering it up with a band-aid that comes with its own set of problems?
I agree that welding in itself doesn't add depth. I want(ed) armor healing gone because I believe it introduces serious gameplay problems that its benefits don't warrant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes its better to just type kill in console instead of buying welder/looking for welder. Is that not a problem as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1953865:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:18 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 26 2012, 07:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Armor upgrades are just as usefull than before, even moreso because of the 10000% higher chance of field repair.
I do agree with you about regeneration for aliens tho. it takes about 10 seconds to be at full health again anywhere on the field. Completely removes a lot of the most intense moments from the game, like escaping to a vent or something as a higher lifeform and then quickly escaping before the marines trap you in with 10hp left. Now you just wait 10 seconds and youre good to go. Also the 3 seconds delay before the uber regen speed kicks in is way too little.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying that armor upgrades are more useful despite the fact that repairing your armor is less available? That's pretty backwards. You could simply buy more welders previously and have even more repairing power on the field and at home, thus armor upgrades were, by definition, more powerful previously.
I agree that regen is too good. Hopefully fixed by allowing only carapace or regen type choices.
I've always considered regeneration to be by far the most ridiculous upgrade for aliens. I really don't see how marines are supposed to cope with aliens being able to harass continuously (with no gorge or hive nearby) because it literally takes only about 10 seconds out of combat before they are fully healed up to go at it again. I'm surprised it's not rushed more often on pub games, it's not that hard to jump in take a few bites and escape alive as a skulk even early on.
<!--quoteo(post=1953867:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:20 PM:name=WorthyRival)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WorthyRival @ Jul 26 2012, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've not played the latest patch but whats stoppping aliens targeting the spawn power node before welders are even researched ?
Even if welders are researched, When the powers down you cannot buy them from an armory so how does one repair the power in that situation ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the same case with when you lose your last rt as an alien and have less than 10tres, too bad. If you do have welders researched and no power, the comm can still drop em tho, and realistically those are now one of the first things to get.
Honestly tho id much rather see team-rfk make a comeback and remove powernodes.
I'm curious to see whether early game rushes on the powernode are successful or not. If they are, it's got to be something like 'PowerFail: 37, PowerWin: 0' by now, surely?!
oldassgamersJoin Date: 2011-02-02Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
armory should never in the first place repair armor, thats just unfair. Giving welder a small task in-game. Also the armory was overpowred. I always ran around the armory when fighting aliens. But now when armory only repair health, THAT IS JUST SO PERFECT. Good balance now :D
for those whinging about marines being harder due to no armor healing at the armory - yes, but so what? it helps aliens break end game marine turtles easier, and the better performance (at least for me) makes it SO MUCH EASIER to track and aim. I used to get 25 fps running around dipping to 10 in heavy combat - this is running an amd phenom x4 @3.4 with a radeon 4850 hd. Now i get 50 running around and i almost never drop below 30. it's night and day, and has made playing much more enjoyable. i can actually track things now instead of spinning around and blindly firing.
<!--quoteo(post=1953869:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:22 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 02:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you're saying that armor upgrades are more useful despite the fact that repairing your armor is less available? That's pretty backwards. You could simply buy more welders previously and have even more repairing power on the field and at home, thus armor upgrades were, by definition, more powerful previously.
I agree that regen is too good. Hopefully fixed by allowing only carapace or regen type choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah you could do that, but the thing is that no one ever did because it wasnt required. Now you are required to use welders and thus i think theres a higher chance to get that repair in the field, simply due to the higher number of welders going around.
<!--quoteo(post=1953853:date=Jul 26 2012, 05:52 AM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Jul 26 2012, 05:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953853"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->or better yet: keep the same health regen rate, but reduce the armor regen rate by 50-75%.
this makes welders an option, not a must<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't see the point. Players would just hump the armory longer which would result in a less fun experience.
Another, maybe better, idea I had:
Make it so, that every marine spawns with a welder once researched. This way pub players (sorry for generalization) can't be blamed for not buying them!
<!--quoteo(post=1953785:date=Jul 26 2012, 06:08 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Jul 26 2012, 06:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No. The armory repairing jetpacks and exos especially is a huge issue that was finally resolved. It made soloing with a jp a bit too easy when you can hug the armory for 2 seconds and youre good to go again. Now you need atleast one marine to weld you, so if the aliens dont kill your jp, atleast they buy some time with having 2 less marines on the field.
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So having a couple a groges and some crags outside a marine base while fades onoi and lerks attack, run out and are fully healed with in seconds and ready to go again is fair. But ,making AA heal armour where the marine has to go all the way back to main or the comm to use valuble resorses for a forward AA, if there isnt any welders isnt fair? Go figure
I think making AA's repair armour is a great idea, better then waiting to be welded all the time
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1953868:date=Jul 26 2012, 12:21 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 26 2012, 12:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sometimes its better to just type kill in console instead of buying welder/looking for welder. Is that not a problem as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As I have already said, armor healing helps cover up for other gameplay issues. Some of which rantology identified, but also many others, most importantly poor performance and hitreg.
If the game is designed to make marines completely impotent without armor (it shouldn't be), then the natural response should be to make armor permanent. Instead, ns1 (and ns2) makes the sides asymmetric: with full armor, marines have a significant advantage, but with no armor, the marines are at a slight disadvantage (at least it SHOULD be a slight disadvantage). Then you give aliens free healing to promote them playing in a hit-and-run, gradual wearing down, playstyle, while forcing marines to pay for their healing to promote the opposite kind of playstyle. Giving marines free healing through armories destroys that.
<!--quoteo(post=1953882:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:34 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 07:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If the game is designed to make marines completely impotent without armor (it shouldn't be), then the natural response should be to make armor permanent. Instead, ns1 (and ns2) makes the sides asymmetric: with full armor, marines have a significant advantage, but with no armor, the marines are at a slight disadvantage (at least it SHOULD be a slight disadvantage). Then you give aliens free healing to promote them playing in a hit-and-run, gradual wearing down, playstyle, while forcing marines to pay for their healing to promote the opposite kind of playstyle. Giving marines free healing through armories destroys that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) the game isn't like you think it SHOULD be. b) Free healing through armories at a slow pace doesn't even destroy your vision of NS2.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1953858:date=Jul 26 2012, 12:04 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 26 2012, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953858"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are kidding right? Try running around without full armour once the second hive is up. The moment leap skulks are in play, and fades, and spike lerks, you may as well just roll over and die if you have no armour. If these are the kind of opinions that fuel NS 2's balance and design direction then I quite frankly don't have high hopes for the state of this game's balance on release day.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have no problems killing keap skulks with 0 armor as marine. It helps having a decently high fps and knowing how to aim. The game can't be balanced around the players having terrible fps and not being able to aim properly -- unless you want the high fps/good aimers to be completely unstoppable.
<!--quoteo(post=1953805:date=Jul 26 2012, 08:41 AM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 26 2012, 08:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1. Especially point number 4. I always thought forward armoury plays were a nice addition from ns1 type gameplay. It actually got rid of alot of tedium and smoothed pub gameplay out alot by creating focal points.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? It was like a Highway on the left side the marines running at the front and on the right those who needed armor back, even if they had 100HP. It wasn't fun to see half of the team running back to the armory again instead of dealing DMG.
They round I played were great, way more agression and teamwork on marine side.
Only the powernode nerf is a bit hard sometimes especially when the power goes diwn in mainbase and you can't buy a welder to repair it.
And btw the exo sounds are great and I have already a bug report for the EXO. When you turn your mous alot the sounds get stacked, faster and louder.
I didn't tried the patch yet but I don't really get how asking a team mate to weld you is more tedious than walking back to the armory and waiting for your armor to go up. It seems rather equivalent in terms of tediousness, but welding promotes interaction between players at least.
About balance, we've been using welders and armor upgrades for a while in pcw's, and it's pretty powerful, two marines with welders can hold on a fade like forever.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1953885:date=Jul 26 2012, 12:39 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) the game isn't like you think it SHOULD be. b) Free healing through armories at a slow pace doesn't even destroy your vision of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wish you would stop trying to "win" the argument, and instead address the actual points made.
a) I assume marines being useless (a bit of an exaggeration, but lets just roll with it) without armor is going to be addressed at some point. If it isn't, armor should be made permanent, because neither welding nor running to the armory after each engagement is particularly entertaining gameplay in itself. b) A slower rate of healing makes the other problems, like humping, more pressing.
<!--quoteo(post=1953888:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:56 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 26 2012, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953888"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I didn't tried the patch yet but I don't really get how asking a team mate to weld you is more tedious than walking back to the armory and waiting for your armor to go up. It seems rather equivalent in terms of tediousness, but welding promotes interaction between players at least.
About balance, we've been using welders and armor upgrades for a while in pcw's, and it's pretty powerful, two marines with welders can hold on a fade like forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is where as before you had welders or armory, now you're forced into just welders. The tedious part comes into play when you realize that you're relying on someone else every time you just want to get up to full hp.
Welders are optional equipment and should be bought when it's appropriate to use them. Like mines or shotguns. Not mindlessly bought every time you spawn because you're going to have trade welds with your teammate while you're both reequipping. I've played 6 hours or so since b215 comes out and most of the time I'm being welded is back at base standing in front of an armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1953891:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:59 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish you would stop trying to "win" the argument, and instead address the actual points made.
a) I assume marines being useless (a bit of an exaggeration, but lets just roll with it) without armor is going to be addressed at some point. If it isn't, armor should be made permanent, because neither welding nor running to the armory after each engagement is particularly entertaining gameplay in itself. b) A slower rate of healing makes the other problems, like humping, more pressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) I don't see that happening just considering the math behind the units. Fades in any low number situation simply can't be killed before they get two swipes off on marines. Marines with no armor die in two swipes. It's incredibly easy to kill unarmored marines, even in their own base. This change kills marines in low numbers because fades and leap skulks dominate marines without armor. And to cover that vulnerability, you're forcing marines to go into a relatively undefended position (ie 1 swaps weapons out and stand right next to eachother). b) Armory humping isn't very effective in combat if the healing rates are low. It does, however, give marines a decent shot at holding forward bases. Something they lack when they're forced to turn their backs and weld each other after every hit and run. If marines get up a forward armory then they should be advantaged in the nearby vicinity of that armory. Taking away the armor healing effectively nullifies most of the forward armory's advantage because both meds and ammos can be supplied from the commander without any vulnerability from building the armory and the power node.
<!--quoteo(post=1953893:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->a) I don't see that happening just considering the math behind the units. Fades in any low number situation simply can't be killed before they get two swipes off on marines. Marines with no armor die in two swipes. It's incredibly easy to kill unarmored marines, even in their own base. This change kills marines in low numbers because fades and leap skulks dominate marines without armor. And to cover that vulnerability, you're forcing marines to go into a relatively undefended position (ie 1 swaps weapons out and stand right next to eachother).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think Fanas actual suggestion in that post was making armor permanent. So for example having Armor Lev 1 always gives 10% dmg reduction. <!--quoteo(post=1953893:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) Armory humping isn't very effective in combat if the healing rates are low. It does, however, give marines a decent shot at holding forward bases. Something they lack when they're forced to turn their backs and weld each other after every hit and run. If marines get up a forward armory then they should be advantaged in the nearby vicinity of that armory. Taking away the armor healing effectively nullifies most of the forward armory's advantage because both meds and ammos can be supplied from the commander without any vulnerability from building the armory and the power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you have a big group of marines it's still cheaper to heal/resupply with an armory I guess.
<!--quoteo(post=1953887:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:55 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Jul 26 2012, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? It was like a Highway on the left side the marines running at the front and on the right those who needed armor back, even if they had 100HP. It wasn't fun to see half of the team running back to the armory again instead of dealing DMG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of strange marine player decisions...
Yesterday, I played a game of Docking where Marines had taken Locker Room. Fades and Skulks were doing some light harassment to it for a while. Then came a big alien push. After about 10 seconds of battle, about 60% of the marines in that room had switched to their welders, trying to weld each other (literally chasing after each other with the welder, it was nuts!), instead of shooting at the aliens. It was pretty crazy! Either way, marines lost locker room pretty quickly after that.
Comments
All it did was make fades even more overpowered. You saw how badly this played in ns2b. Sure, you can balance around the new armories not healing armor, but why? There is no added benefit from changing this mechanic but there is noticeable downside.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ns2b changed fade health, the blink and a lot of other stuff too, and i played it 1 or 2 rounds so i didnt really form much of an opinion about armory repairs from there. In my opinion armory repairing armor was not balanced at all to begin with. Especially at sieges it was very hard to kill the marines because they got fresh armor with no drawback. And tbh i much rather weld/get welded by team mate than run between the frontline and armory all the time.
Shadowsteps really fast acceleration and speed with this tickrate and overall performance is the bigger problem with the fade, with (almost) invisible blink adding to it. It was very hard to kill a fade in older builds outside of instagibbing with 2-3 shotguns, but now with more health and armor its just much harder.
I see it as a benefit for the marines in the long run. Theres a much higher probability to get welded and receive 2 medpacks in the field instead of having to run to pg and go to base and hump an armory now. No one ever bought welders before, but now the game pretty much forces it. I think its for the better.
The welder thing is an absolute nightmare. Aliens were overpowered before this patch and now they're just more overpowered. I just don't get it. So aliens can retreat to their hive and heal up completely, get regen and heal up anywhere completely, or hang out on infestation and slowly heal up completely--but marines have to rely on a teammate to do these things? So why shouldn't aliens need a gorge to regain armor? Not that I'm saying do that, because I think that's a terrible idea too. Slowing down the armor regen rate would do the job just fine I think.
Another point I felt like hammering on while I'm ranting is that sentries are still too worthless. A whip (especially upgraded) is so much more durable than a sentry. Where's the balance in that? I'm not even saying beef up the sentry turrets...I'm just saying even them out with the whips. As it is the sentries are about as weak as a hydra that hasn't matured. At least I feel like I put in about equal effort destroying them.
Repeating this over and over doesn't make it true. Several posters have identified exactly why this is a good change -- none of which have anything to do with ns1 nostalgia.
Having full armor us not a necessity for marine success, neither is welding. Painting this as a change that leads to some sort of weldomania where marines have to stand around welding all the time is disingenuous at best.
Removing a source of armor healing is, if anything, furthering KISS.
The rest of your post has already been addressed.
You are kidding right? Try running around without full armour once the second hive is up. The moment leap skulks are in play, and fades, and spike lerks, you may as well just roll over and die if you have no armour. If these are the kind of opinions that fuel NS 2's balance and design direction then I quite frankly don't have high hopes for the state of this game's balance on release day.
I agree power nodes needed a change. I think powernodes should be rebuilt at a slower pace (ala the pace of a arms lab / robotics factory). The time taken means you gain a larger advantage. I also agree to a point with armourys needing an upgrade to regen armour (so perhaps you cant just drop a forward armoury and get armour back asap). Alternatively if you have a welder and weld nothing you weld yourself needs to be an option. You really cant rely on pub players. (welding yourself is perhaps worse than armoury though).
I also would like to see the welder be a 4th slot item. The knife is so useful in killing structures to lose it hurts and to drop kill something and pick back up is bothersome.
A marine without armor goes down to a skulk in 2 bites. A fade in 1. There's no time to weld up when ###### hits the fan aliens can switch out while their team is still attacking and regen really quick before coming back to rape some more. I see no way this can possibly be considered fair. Not to mention - ALIENS WERE ALREADY OVERPOWERED! I can't stress that point enough. I mean seriously, aliens are OP and you decide to nerf the marines? It's like dividing by zero.
Having full armor us not a necessity for marine success, neither is welding. Painting this as a change that leads to some sort of weldomania where marines have to stand around welding all the time is disingenuous at best.
Removing a source of armor healing is, if anything, furthering KISS.
The rest of your post has already been addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This change is the direct opposite of KISS.
A marine without armor goes down to a skulk in 2 bites. A fade in 1. There's no time to weld up when ###### hits the fan aliens can switch out while their team is still attacking and regen really quick before coming back to rape some more. I see no way this can possibly be considered fair. Not to mention - ALIENS WERE ALREADY OVERPOWERED! I can't stress that point enough. I mean seriously, aliens are OP and you decide to nerf the marines? It's like dividing by zero.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Armor upgrades are just as usefull than before, even moreso because of the 10000% higher chance of field repair.
I do agree with you about regeneration for aliens tho. it takes about 10 seconds to be at full health again anywhere on the field. Completely removes a lot of the most intense moments from the game, like escaping to a vent or something as a higher lifeform and then quickly escaping before the marines trap you in with 10hp left. Now you just wait 10 seconds and youre good to go. Also the 3 seconds delay before the uber regen speed kicks in is way too little.
Armories healing armor is actually broken, for the reasons mentioned by myself and many other posters in this thread. You correctly identify that it helps compensate for other issues with the game, but wouldn't you rather see those addressed instead of covering it up with a band-aid that comes with its own set of problems?
I agree that welding in itself doesn't add depth. I want(ed) armor healing gone because I believe it introduces serious gameplay problems that its benefits don't warrant.
Even if welders are researched, When the powers down you cannot buy them from an armory so how does one repair the power in that situation ?
I agree that welding in itself doesn't add depth. I want(ed) armor healing gone because I believe it introduces serious gameplay problems that its benefits don't warrant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes its better to just type kill in console instead of buying welder/looking for welder. Is that not a problem as well.
I do agree with you about regeneration for aliens tho. it takes about 10 seconds to be at full health again anywhere on the field. Completely removes a lot of the most intense moments from the game, like escaping to a vent or something as a higher lifeform and then quickly escaping before the marines trap you in with 10hp left. Now you just wait 10 seconds and youre good to go. Also the 3 seconds delay before the uber regen speed kicks in is way too little.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you're saying that armor upgrades are more useful despite the fact that repairing your armor is less available? That's pretty backwards. You could simply buy more welders previously and have even more repairing power on the field and at home, thus armor upgrades were, by definition, more powerful previously.
I agree that regen is too good. Hopefully fixed by allowing only carapace or regen type choices.
Carapace still needs looking at too.
Even if welders are researched, When the powers down you cannot buy them from an armory so how does one repair the power in that situation ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its the same case with when you lose your last rt as an alien and have less than 10tres, too bad.
If you do have welders researched and no power, the comm can still drop em tho, and realistically those are now one of the first things to get.
Honestly tho id much rather see team-rfk make a comeback and remove powernodes.
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I agree that regen is too good. Hopefully fixed by allowing only carapace or regen type choices.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah you could do that, but the thing is that no one ever did because it wasnt required. Now you are required to use welders and thus i think theres a higher chance to get that repair in the field, simply due to the higher number of welders going around.
this makes welders an option, not a must<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see the point. Players would just hump the armory longer which would result in a less fun experience.
Another, maybe better, idea I had:
Make it so, that every marine spawns with a welder once researched. This way pub players (sorry for generalization) can't be blamed for not buying them!
A great change that i have been hoping for a really long time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So having a couple a groges and some crags outside a marine base while fades onoi and lerks attack, run out and are fully healed with in seconds and ready to go again is fair. But ,making AA heal armour where the marine has to go all the way back to main or the comm to use valuble resorses for a forward AA, if there isnt any welders isnt fair? Go figure
I think making AA's repair armour is a great idea, better then waiting to be welded all the time
As I have already said, armor healing helps cover up for other gameplay issues. Some of which rantology identified, but also many others, most importantly poor performance and hitreg.
If the game is designed to make marines completely impotent without armor (it shouldn't be), then the natural response should be to make armor permanent. Instead, ns1 (and ns2) makes the sides asymmetric: with full armor, marines have a significant advantage, but with no armor, the marines are at a slight disadvantage (at least it SHOULD be a slight disadvantage). Then you give aliens free healing to promote them playing in a hit-and-run, gradual wearing down, playstyle, while forcing marines to pay for their healing to promote the opposite kind of playstyle. Giving marines free healing through armories destroys that.
a) the game isn't like you think it SHOULD be.
b) Free healing through armories at a slow pace doesn't even destroy your vision of NS2.
I have no problems killing keap skulks with 0 armor as marine. It helps having a decently high fps and knowing how to aim. The game can't be balanced around the players having terrible fps and not being able to aim properly -- unless you want the high fps/good aimers to be completely unstoppable.
Really? It was like a Highway on the left side the marines running at the front and on the right those who needed armor back, even if they had 100HP. It wasn't fun to see half of the team running back to the armory again instead of dealing DMG.
They round I played were great, way more agression and teamwork on marine side.
Only the powernode nerf is a bit hard sometimes especially when the power goes diwn in mainbase and you can't buy a welder to repair it.
And btw the exo sounds are great and I have already a bug report for the EXO. When you turn your mous alot the sounds get stacked, faster and louder.
About balance, we've been using welders and armor upgrades for a while in pcw's, and it's pretty powerful, two marines with welders can hold on a fade like forever.
b) Free healing through armories at a slow pace doesn't even destroy your vision of NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wish you would stop trying to "win" the argument, and instead address the actual points made.
a) I assume marines being useless (a bit of an exaggeration, but lets just roll with it) without armor is going to be addressed at some point. If it isn't, armor should be made permanent, because neither welding nor running to the armory after each engagement is particularly entertaining gameplay in itself.
b) A slower rate of healing makes the other problems, like humping, more pressing.
About balance, we've been using welders and armor upgrades for a while in pcw's, and it's pretty powerful, two marines with welders can hold on a fade like forever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is where as before you had welders or armory, now you're forced into just welders. The tedious part comes into play when you realize that you're relying on someone else every time you just want to get up to full hp.
Welders are optional equipment and should be bought when it's appropriate to use them. Like mines or shotguns. Not mindlessly bought every time you spawn because you're going to have trade welds with your teammate while you're both reequipping. I've played 6 hours or so since b215 comes out and most of the time I'm being welded is back at base standing in front of an armory.
<!--quoteo(post=1953891:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:59 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 26 2012, 07:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953891"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wish you would stop trying to "win" the argument, and instead address the actual points made.
a) I assume marines being useless (a bit of an exaggeration, but lets just roll with it) without armor is going to be addressed at some point. If it isn't, armor should be made permanent, because neither welding nor running to the armory after each engagement is particularly entertaining gameplay in itself.
b) A slower rate of healing makes the other problems, like humping, more pressing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) I don't see that happening just considering the math behind the units. Fades in any low number situation simply can't be killed before they get two swipes off on marines. Marines with no armor die in two swipes. It's incredibly easy to kill unarmored marines, even in their own base. This change kills marines in low numbers because fades and leap skulks dominate marines without armor. And to cover that vulnerability, you're forcing marines to go into a relatively undefended position (ie 1 swaps weapons out and stand right next to eachother).
b) Armory humping isn't very effective in combat if the healing rates are low. It does, however, give marines a decent shot at holding forward bases. Something they lack when they're forced to turn their backs and weld each other after every hit and run. If marines get up a forward armory then they should be advantaged in the nearby vicinity of that armory. Taking away the armor healing effectively nullifies most of the forward armory's advantage because both meds and ammos can be supplied from the commander without any vulnerability from building the armory and the power node.
What? No.
I think Fanas actual suggestion in that post was making armor permanent. So for example having Armor Lev 1 always gives 10% dmg reduction.
<!--quoteo(post=1953893:date=Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 26 2012, 07:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953893"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->b) Armory humping isn't very effective in combat if the healing rates are low. It does, however, give marines a decent shot at holding forward bases. Something they lack when they're forced to turn their backs and weld each other after every hit and run. If marines get up a forward armory then they should be advantaged in the nearby vicinity of that armory. Taking away the armor healing effectively nullifies most of the forward armory's advantage because both meds and ammos can be supplied from the commander without any vulnerability from building the armory and the power node.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you have a big group of marines it's still cheaper to heal/resupply with an armory I guess.
Speaking of strange marine player decisions...
Yesterday, I played a game of Docking where Marines had taken Locker Room. Fades and Skulks were doing some light harassment to it for a while. Then came a big alien push. After about 10 seconds of battle, about 60% of the marines in that room had switched to their welders, trying to weld each other (literally chasing after each other with the welder, it was nuts!), instead of shooting at the aliens. It was pretty crazy! Either way, marines lost locker room pretty quickly after that.