<!--quoteo(post=1954517:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:30 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 27 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much the entire justification for this change hinges on "how it was in NS1."
It's bad to FORCE TEAMWORK. Teamwork should be encouraged as a force multiplier. You guys thinking teamwork should be forced on one team for basic individual mechanics (like healing), but not on the other team should think about the problem some more.
It's important to note that all of the "benefits" gained from this the armor healing change were fully available previously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forcing teamwork by making people get owned when they don't use teamwork is one of the most fundamental tenets of any team game. That's a much more logical and intuitive incentive than an arbitrary bonus like "+10% damage per nearby teammate" or something. When you get welded you feel gratitude towards your teammate, and the satisfaction of working together as a team. It's not just meaningless busywork as you seem to think; there's far more to good teamwork than everybody pointing at the same thing and shooting.
Story time: When NS2 first went alpha, marines didn't build things. The comm simply used MACs to do everything himself, and the marine's job was to shoot stuff. Since then MACs have been relegated to obscurity and marines are doing all the building again - a completely menial task by your definition. You know why? Because when the marines didn't have any tasks like that to do for the comm, they felt no connection to him. It was like some random dude was playing his own singleplayer game that happened to run parallel to yours. Welding is the same thing, just for your teammates on the field instead of the comm.
It's true that aliens are a team with much more independent player mechanics, but that's part of what gives them their different flavor. I don't really think that (in and of itself) is a balance problem because the alien team is something that inexperienced players have a much harder time wrapping their heads around anyway, which compensates for the teamwork requirements of the marine team.
I don't really see the point in the armory change, it seems like it's adding pointless busy work. if you want to encourage welder use, just give everyone welders all the time.
If it's because armory tanking is a problem, just make it so the armory doesn't work when it or you is under fire, seems perfectly reasonable.
<!--quoteo(post=1954537:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:23 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jul 27 2012, 11:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954537"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Forcing teamwork by making people get owned when they don't use teamwork is one of the most fundamental tenets of any team game. That's a much more logical and intuitive incentive than an arbitrary bonus like "+10% damage per nearby teammate" or something. When you get welded you feel gratitude towards your teammate, and the satisfaction of working together as a team. It's not just meaningless busywork as you seem to think; there's far more to good teamwork than everybody pointing at the same thing and shooting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines were already far more team oriented than aliens were. Why was this change needed from a teamwork standpoint? Marines already lost most any 1v1 going into the midgame. Marines had to travel in packs to survive, defend, and attack. Isn't this change redundant in the teamwork department? And strictly speaking, it was already an option for marines to buy welders and go weld each other for that "teamwork."
a) You need to prepare ppl to get used to use welders between combat, which this change helps with. (=> welders are not only good for repairing structures, they can be a great tool on the field - i think ppl finally start to learn this) b) While it wasnt a super big problem marines humping the armory when it healed armor, i guess exos will be a pain in the ass. c) Even if it just didnt repair exos(for some reasons thats not logical - armor is armor) but only marines, imagine Exos and a few marines + Armory, marines running around to weld the exo while getting quickly healed by the armory defended by themself and the exos.
Maybe it would be okay if the advanced armory would heal armor again - dont know, need to think about this idea more.
If ppl get owned by not using welders properly("without armor - you are useless") then there might be some underlying problem with the balance. (since also armorys dont grow on trees or are everywhere on the map) Tho i have to say, the game doesnt play differently for me since this patch - other than i suddenly get welded in enemy territory between combat every now and then(instead running back to mommy armory, or man-ing up) <u>on public</u> - awesome.
<!--quoteo(post=1954517:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:30 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Jul 27 2012, 09:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pretty much the entire justification for this change hinges on "how it was in NS1."
It's bad to FORCE TEAMWORK. Teamwork should be encouraged as a force multiplier. You guys thinking teamwork should be forced on one team for basic individual mechanics (like healing), but not on the other team should think about the problem some more.
It's important to note that all of the "benefits" gained from this the armor healing change were fully available previously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not important to note... its painful and sad.
Nobody buys a ###### welder in this game ever because people are too stupid. At least now people realize that there even IS a welder and how important it is.
Armories healing armor is just training wheels for nubs. If everyone had a welder and used it regularly you guys wouldn't be ###### about anything.
I'm sure we'd all love to keep anything in the game that helps the marines... but what kind of game is that? It's an incredibly imbalanced one. We shouldn't need armories healing armor and and this other bs just to give the marines a chance. It's a whole other problem all together and one that UWE and Charlie CONSTANTLY ignore.
It's been what? Over a ###### year now and we still haven't even see anything CLOSE to balance.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens Win 2: The Game<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--quoteo(post=1954547:date=Jul 27 2012, 09:52 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Jul 27 2012, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954547"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No more speculative than a balanced NS2 being unbalanced by the armory change<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Never did I say NS2 was balanced. Nor that the previous incarnation of armory was balanced.
<!--quoteo(post=1954550:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:59 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 11:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954550"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not important to note... its painful and sad.
Nobody buys a ###### welder in this game ever because people are too stupid. At least now people realize that there even IS a welder and how important it is.
Armories healing armor is just training wheels for nubs. If everyone had a welder and used it regularly you guys wouldn't be ###### about anything.
I'm sure we'd all love to keep anything in the game that helps the marines... but what kind of game is that? It's an incredibly imbalanced one. We shouldn't need armories healing armor and and this other bs just to give the marines a chance. It's a whole other problem all together and one that UWE and Charlie CONSTANTLY ignore.
It's been what? Over a ###### year now and we still haven't even see anything CLOSE to balance.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens Win 2: The Game<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding right? Prior to this change I bought welders all the time. Teammates bought them all the time as well. Constantly repairing structures and extractors was a huge benefit to the marine team. There were many games where i'd be on the forward position without an armory. commander drops med packs and another marine and myself weld our armor back up. You're trying to say that the welder was an unknown tool and rarely used. Perhaps yes, by new players, but I guarantee you any player who has played and knows how to play knew a welder's importance prior to 215.
I highly doubt this move was made to prepare for exo suits. If that was the case, why not just make the change when the actual suit was in the game? Then we'd be able to talk about actual game balance.
If this change is going to model how NS1 was then balance it. It's completely unbalanced to an alien's ability to regenerate everything anywhere on the map with a simple researched upgrade. The big argument from what I see is that it's the way NS1 was and it forces more team player for marines. I didn't realize that this entire time i've been playing marine side without team work (sarcasm). Now there's just an added unnecessary, frustrating, and (currently) game breaking change that makes it unplayable.
I don't understand how an armory was unbalanced in the first place. How was it game breaking? Hives work the same way. Crags work the same way. Gorges work the same way. Plus you can get a bit of team work and some bile bombs and there goes that armory! Is alien armor going to be removed next?
Don't forget the imbalance in how every alien healing source repairs armor without spending any money or losing weapon slots. That's the important part. Like everything else, when you're on the aliens you take it for granted because that side is easy mode :)
<!--quoteo(post=1954538:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 27 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see the point in the armory change, it seems like it's adding pointless busy work. if you want to encourage welder use, just give everyone welders all the time.
If it's because armory tanking is a problem, just make it so the armory doesn't work when it or you is under fire, seems perfectly reasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could make it so that the armory is large and you have to stare into it to use it, thus removing you from combat while you heal. It's already like that, though, and nobody seems to be able to admit how that affects combat in a rush to shoehorn in all the meaningless NS1 mechanics and leave out the good ones. Welders are required to repair armor in the same build where skulks move slowly and are expected to "ambush", folks.
<!--quoteo(post=1954569:date=Jul 27 2012, 10:16 PM:name=simba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (simba @ Jul 27 2012, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954569"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how an armory was unbalanced in the first place. How was it game breaking? Hives work the same way. Crags work the same way. Gorges work the same way. Plus you can get a bit of team work and some bile bombs and there goes that armory! Is alien armor going to be removed next?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying "it works for the Aliens" doesn't apply in an asymmetrical game. Otherwise we could say "all guns are now energy based."
Sorry for the reductio ad absurdum.
Point is Marines are more team/squad based. Aliens are supposed to be more individual. But both are more effective when they work as a team. How much more reliant Marines depend on teammates is what is being discussed here. With armor only healed by welders, it is being argued it is too much reliant on teamwork and an unnecessary detail/restriction.
<!--quoteo(post=1954515:date=Jul 28 2012, 02:28 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 28 2012, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Having to rely completely on another player to know what to do and when to do it (one could call this tedious, unenjoyable)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally this is the major argument for armory not healing armor. I play NS2 for the teamplay, not for interacting with AI buildings. I like it even when it fails.
Somehow I find it more interesting to die horribly because my noob teammate failed to weld me, than getting welded by a building.
Arguments like "I don't want to be dependent on a team member with a welder." showing that there are mostly rambos who complain about the change. There are so many positive aspects that came with this change. Some maybe only little things, but all together are great and overweight the cons a big time.
Sure the rambos cry that they have to play in a team now. It is less CoD and more NS. Also it really isn't a big balance deal in the game. Before the change nearly nobody carried a welder. So if your armor got down in the field, you had to stick with this low armor. Now nearly everybody takes a welder. If I command I drop 2 welders every three minutes in base. Overall this change was a balance buff for the marines and only because the attitude of the players changed. They carry welders now. That is the difference. They don't run back to an armory after every fight. This change has made the whole game (and especially the team-feeling) a lot better.
If you really cry, because you can't kill a fade alone without armor. Your problem might be, that you are thinking you are playing CoD. Play in a team. Problem solved.
<!--quoteo(post=1954597:date=Jul 28 2012, 03:27 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 28 2012, 03:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954597"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are so many positive aspects that came with this change. Some maybe only little things, but all together are great and overweight the cons a big time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but no. This thread has 9 pages now. On this 9 pages I and multiple others have listed all the positive aspects. There is no need in repeating them again and again. There is even a second thread with all the pros and the few cons (again).
<!--quoteo(post=1954595:date=Jul 28 2012, 11:18 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 28 2012, 11:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally this is the major argument for armory not healing armor. I play NS2 for the teamplay, not for interacting with AI buildings. I like it even when it fails.
Somehow I find it more interesting to die horribly because my noob teammate failed to weld me, than getting welded by a building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding takes to much time and skill to be a fun mechanic especially on public. If marines spawned with welders like we had earlier in the beta it might work. But having to run to the armory and buy a welder and rely on teammates to do this every time you spawn is a pain.
I played more then 20 games on different servers in 215 . 3 times as Marines rest aliens. Aliens won ALL games o_O.
I think one problem is that marines get to easy outmaneuvering by aliens. They are way to slow to reach hotspots and to busy to defend the base(es). Only JPs bring back a balance but then its to late.
In my opinion turrets could fix some problems. Make them strong like in NS1 (minimum), limit there numbers (you can build only 3-4 per Command Station) and marinebases are secured vs harrasing skulks in early-midgame.
And just improve the performance will also balance the game for marines :> (much better aiming with high fps ftw).
And maybe we need the good old electric defense on RTs back :). Yeah, expensive like hell but usefull vs all skulks :>.
<!--quoteo(post=1954572:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:53 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jul 28 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Saying "it works for the Aliens" doesn't apply in an asymmetrical game. Otherwise we could say "all guns are now energy based."
Sorry for the reductio ad absurdum.
Point is Marines are more team/squad based. Aliens are supposed to be more individual. But both are more effective when they work as a team. How much more reliant Marines depend on teammates is what is being discussed here. With armor only healed by welders, it is being argued it is too much reliant on teamwork and an unnecessary detail/restriction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. My point is there was already plenty of team work needed by marines to compete. You already had to be in groups of at least 2-3 to take on life forms. Now, instead of those groups of 2-3 being effective against good life forms, they're spending the whole time left clicking on each other while fades and others pick them off. It's not instilling more team work, it's instilling an advantage to the aliens as now there's less guns shooting the alien as he picks off the marines with little to no armor.
I understand it's an asymmetrical game. My point is that team work was already required by the marine team. Travel in groups, protect bases, escort ARCS, focus fire, etc. Balance has just been incredibly broken with this unnecessary fix. Armories don't passively heal anything that's near it. Keep in mind you had to LOOK at it and be REMOVED from combat to even heal.
<!--quoteo(post=1954637:date=Jul 28 2012, 04:33 PM:name=simba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (simba @ Jul 28 2012, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954637"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not instilling more team work, it's instilling an advantage to the aliens as now there's less guns shooting the alien as he picks off the marines with little to no armor.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That has been brought up a couple times, but in my opinion it is false. Before, marines had to run up to an armory to regain armour. During that period they weren't shooting aliens either. Now marines can fight off the aliens (just like before), then weld each other on the spot and continue to push. Overall an advantage for the marines.
I don't mind the idea of upgrading armouries to allow for armour welding. One of my least favourite consequences of the armour-repair was the fact that armouries were dropped ad infinitum even at relatively cheap locations. An upgrade will avoid the cheap and instant advantage and make it a more interesting decision on whether to go for the long haul or not. Also, aliens won't find themselves back to square one in quite the same way (kill an upgraded armoury will yield a longer opportunity window).
I think once marines adapt to the concept of carrying welders, they'll actually wind up being stronger. Being able to repair in the field without the comm dropping 10res on an armory is powerful. Before, there was a choice between free and not free. People inevitably went with free because it was easier, but not necessarily better.
<!--quoteo(post=1954595:date=Jul 28 2012, 05:18 AM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Jul 28 2012, 05:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954595"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Somehow I find it more interesting to die horribly because my noob teammate failed to weld me, than getting welded by a building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, sir, are a man that stands alone. :)
Most people get frustrated and rage on their teammates when this happens, further debilitating their ability to work together.
<!--quoteo(post=1954639:date=Jul 28 2012, 11:01 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jul 28 2012, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That has been brought up a couple times, but in my opinion it is false. Before, marines had to run up to an armory to regain armour. During that period they weren't shooting aliens either. Now marines can fight off the aliens (just like before), then weld each other on the spot and continue to push. Overall an advantage for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not seeing marines using this advantage on any games I have played so far. I am seeing marines fumbling with welders and getting eaten by aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1954485:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:23 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now welders are being made important again, and what you will find is that this isn't a NERF by any means. I see it as a step forward and its pushing people to not be <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAD</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently it's not pushing people hard enough because marines are getting roasted.
Maybe to push them harder, increase the cost of the welder to 10 res instead of 5. ;)
Is bullying marines into a corner really going to make them win? I am thinking no.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
I played about ten rounds of b215 today (haven't played since b212), half on marines and half on aliens (lost one marine round, won the rest). Balance didn't seem negatively affected by the armory change. The only thing I noticed was that Fades are very difficult to kill right now, probably mostly because of poor hitreg. Shooting them while they were in blink didn't seem to have any effect at all, regardless of what it says in the changelogs.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.
<!--quoteo(post=1954671:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:03 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 28 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played about ten rounds of b215 today (haven't played since b212), half on marines and half on aliens (lost one marine round, won the rest). Balance didn't seem negatively affected by the armory change. The only thing I noticed was that Fades are very difficult to kill right now, probably mostly because of poor hitreg. Shooting them while they were in blink didn't seem to have any effect at all, regardless of what it says in the changelogs.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we even playing the same game? :)
This post is the exact opposite of what I have been experiencing. :S
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1954649:date=Jul 28 2012, 08:32 AM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Jul 28 2012, 08:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954649"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being able to repair in the field without the comm dropping 10res on an armory is powerful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While i might agree with this, you are just trading 10tres for 5pres <u>per marine</u>, which potentially if everyone gets one is 75 pres in a 32 player game. So it kinda depends on how you look at it i guess.. imo if you solve the coordination/communication/ease of use issues, then it might just be the same as before..<b> But thats a hurdle.</b>
@fana: the fade does take 100% and i dont think it has to do with hitreg this time <b>as much</b> as the effects. If you make the model opaque/visible you have much greater success - obviously.
Here's my theory on why, though: the effects trailing behind him are misaligned/ not center mass. They originate off of his head, a nigh impossible thing to shoot in blink and to compound matters the trail has that bright electrical effect which catches your eye, and overrides the potential for catching the fade's transparent model at a medium distance. Observe these shots for reference, which aren't as accurate considering the fade is holding still, the effect is exaggerated at speed and at a distance: <a href="http://i.imgur.com/HBOhT.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/HBOhT.jpg</a> <a href="http://i.imgur.com/Tztk4.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/Tztk4.jpg</a> <a href="http://i.imgur.com/rzrx8.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/rzrx8.jpg</a>
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1954680:date=Jul 28 2012, 06:52 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Jul 28 2012, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's my theory on why, though: the effects trailing behind him are misaligned/ not center mass. They originate off of his head, a nigh impossible thing to shoot in blink and to compound matters the trail has that bright electrical effect which catches your eye, and overrides the potential for catching the fade's transparent model at a medium distance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that makes sense. Should be pretty high on the list of things to fix, although I would prefer they make blink hive1 and 100% visible and shadowstep hive2.
<!--quoteo(post=1954671:date=Jul 28 2012, 01:03 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 28 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all the positive points point forward in this discussion, why not remove hive healing, and remove alien armor healing from crags, and see what alien players think about that? Surely if using welders to repair armor encourages team play for marines, it should be a good thing to do the same for aliens.
I suppose you would have to nerf alien regeneration as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1954671:date=Jul 28 2012, 10:03 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 28 2012, 10:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954671"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I played about ten rounds of b215 today (haven't played since b212), half on marines and half on aliens (lost one marine round, won the rest). Balance didn't seem negatively affected by the armory change. The only thing I noticed was that Fades are very difficult to kill right now, probably mostly because of poor hitreg. Shooting them while they were in blink didn't seem to have any effect at all, regardless of what it says in the changelogs.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because 10 rounds of public play proves everything..
The quality of the players in those 10 rounds is also something that is a pretty big variable. I don't see how you can rest your argument on such a shaky foundation. You could've played with or against complete noobs. Thus the "I won every game" statement would pretty much have no meaning in the discussion.
I don't see how this proves anything. It takes a ton more time and metagame development than just 10 pub games to determine if there are no problems with a change.
Here's hoping there aren't any problems. I was simply having my doubts with the simple statistical facts that Marines are very weak HP value wise without armor. Thus the skill required to survive against a full HP Fade must be quite phenomenal..
Comments
It's bad to FORCE TEAMWORK. Teamwork should be encouraged as a force multiplier. You guys thinking teamwork should be forced on one team for basic individual mechanics (like healing), but not on the other team should think about the problem some more.
It's important to note that all of the "benefits" gained from this the armor healing change were fully available previously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Forcing teamwork by making people get owned when they don't use teamwork is one of the most fundamental tenets of any team game. That's a much more logical and intuitive incentive than an arbitrary bonus like "+10% damage per nearby teammate" or something. When you get welded you feel gratitude towards your teammate, and the satisfaction of working together as a team. It's not just meaningless busywork as you seem to think; there's far more to good teamwork than everybody pointing at the same thing and shooting.
Story time: When NS2 first went alpha, marines didn't build things. The comm simply used MACs to do everything himself, and the marine's job was to shoot stuff. Since then MACs have been relegated to obscurity and marines are doing all the building again - a completely menial task by your definition. You know why? Because when the marines didn't have any tasks like that to do for the comm, they felt no connection to him. It was like some random dude was playing his own singleplayer game that happened to run parallel to yours. Welding is the same thing, just for your teammates on the field instead of the comm.
It's true that aliens are a team with much more independent player mechanics, but that's part of what gives them their different flavor. I don't really think that (in and of itself) is a balance problem because the alien team is something that inexperienced players have a much harder time wrapping their heads around anyway, which compensates for the teamwork requirements of the marine team.
If it's because armory tanking is a problem, just make it so the armory doesn't work when it or you is under fire, seems perfectly reasonable.
Marines were already far more team oriented than aliens were. Why was this change needed from a teamwork standpoint? Marines already lost most any 1v1 going into the midgame. Marines had to travel in packs to survive, defend, and attack. Isn't this change redundant in the teamwork department? And strictly speaking, it was already an option for marines to buy welders and go weld each other for that "teamwork."
Exo.
a) You need to prepare ppl to get used to use welders between combat, which this change helps with. (=> welders are not only good for repairing structures, they can be a great tool on the field - i think ppl finally start to learn this)
b) While it wasnt a super big problem marines humping the armory when it healed armor, i guess exos will be a pain in the ass.
c) Even if it just didnt repair exos(for some reasons thats not logical - armor is armor) but only marines, imagine Exos and a few marines + Armory, marines running around to weld the exo while getting quickly healed by the armory defended by themself and the exos.
Maybe it would be okay if the advanced armory would heal armor again - dont know, need to think about this idea more.
If ppl get owned by not using welders properly("without armor - you are useless") then there might be some underlying problem with the balance. (since also armorys dont grow on trees or are everywhere on the map)
Tho i have to say, the game doesnt play differently for me since this patch - other than i suddenly get welded in enemy territory between combat every now and then(instead running back to mommy armory, or man-ing up) <u>on public</u> - awesome.
It's bad to FORCE TEAMWORK. Teamwork should be encouraged as a force multiplier. You guys thinking teamwork should be forced on one team for basic individual mechanics (like healing), but not on the other team should think about the problem some more.
It's important to note that all of the "benefits" gained from this the armor healing change were fully available previously.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not important to note... its painful and sad.
Nobody buys a ###### welder in this game ever because people are too stupid. At least now people realize that there even IS a welder and how important it is.
Armories healing armor is just training wheels for nubs. If everyone had a welder and used it regularly you guys wouldn't be ###### about anything.
I'm sure we'd all love to keep anything in the game that helps the marines... but what kind of game is that? It's an incredibly imbalanced one. We shouldn't need armories healing armor and and this other bs just to give the marines a chance. It's a whole other problem all together and one that UWE and Charlie CONSTANTLY ignore.
It's been what? Over a ###### year now and we still haven't even see anything CLOSE to balance.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens Win 2: The Game<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Never did I say NS2 was balanced. Nor that the previous incarnation of armory was balanced.
Nobody buys a ###### welder in this game ever because people are too stupid. At least now people realize that there even IS a welder and how important it is.
Armories healing armor is just training wheels for nubs. If everyone had a welder and used it regularly you guys wouldn't be ###### about anything.
I'm sure we'd all love to keep anything in the game that helps the marines... but what kind of game is that? It's an incredibly imbalanced one. We shouldn't need armories healing armor and and this other bs just to give the marines a chance. It's a whole other problem all together and one that UWE and Charlie CONSTANTLY ignore.
It's been what? Over a ###### year now and we still haven't even see anything CLOSE to balance.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Aliens Win 2: The Game<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're kidding right? Prior to this change I bought welders all the time. Teammates bought them all the time as well. Constantly repairing structures and extractors was a huge benefit to the marine team. There were many games where i'd be on the forward position without an armory. commander drops med packs and another marine and myself weld our armor back up. You're trying to say that the welder was an unknown tool and rarely used. Perhaps yes, by new players, but I guarantee you any player who has played and knows how to play knew a welder's importance prior to 215.
I highly doubt this move was made to prepare for exo suits. If that was the case, why not just make the change when the actual suit was in the game? Then we'd be able to talk about actual game balance.
If this change is going to model how NS1 was then balance it. It's completely unbalanced to an alien's ability to regenerate everything anywhere on the map with a simple researched upgrade. The big argument from what I see is that it's the way NS1 was and it forces more team player for marines. I didn't realize that this entire time i've been playing marine side without team work (sarcasm). Now there's just an added unnecessary, frustrating, and (currently) game breaking change that makes it unplayable.
That's the important part. Like everything else, when you're on the aliens you take it for granted because that side is easy mode :)
<!--quoteo(post=1954538:date=Jul 27 2012, 11:24 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 27 2012, 11:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't really see the point in the armory change, it seems like it's adding pointless busy work. if you want to encourage welder use, just give everyone welders all the time.
If it's because armory tanking is a problem, just make it so the armory doesn't work when it or you is under fire, seems perfectly reasonable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or you could make it so that the armory is large and you have to stare into it to use it, thus removing you from combat while you heal. It's already like that, though, and nobody seems to be able to admit how that affects combat in a rush to shoehorn in all the meaningless NS1 mechanics and leave out the good ones. Welders are required to repair armor in the same build where skulks move slowly and are expected to "ambush", folks.
Saying "it works for the Aliens" doesn't apply in an asymmetrical game. Otherwise we could say "all guns are now energy based."
Sorry for the reductio ad absurdum.
Point is Marines are more team/squad based. Aliens are supposed to be more individual. But both are more effective when they work as a team. How much more reliant Marines depend on teammates is what is being discussed here. With armor only healed by welders, it is being argued it is too much reliant on teamwork and an unnecessary detail/restriction.
Personally this is the major argument for armory not healing armor. I play NS2 for the teamplay, not for interacting with AI buildings. I like it even when it fails.
Somehow I find it more interesting to die horribly because my noob teammate failed to weld me, than getting welded by a building.
Sure the rambos cry that they have to play in a team now. It is less CoD and more NS. Also it really isn't a big balance deal in the game. Before the change nearly nobody carried a welder. So if your armor got down in the field, you had to stick with this low armor. Now nearly everybody takes a welder. If I command I drop 2 welders every three minutes in base. Overall this change was a balance buff for the marines and only because the attitude of the players changed. They carry welders now. That is the difference. They don't run back to an armory after every fight. This change has made the whole game (and especially the team-feeling) a lot better.
If you really cry, because you can't kill a fade alone without armor. Your problem might be, that you are thinking you are playing CoD. Play in a team. Problem solved.
Could you list them and be more specific?
There is even a second thread with all the pros and the few cons (again).
Somehow I find it more interesting to die horribly because my noob teammate failed to weld me, than getting welded by a building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Welding takes to much time and skill to be a fun mechanic especially on public.
If marines spawned with welders like we had earlier in the beta it might work. But having to run to the armory and buy a welder and rely on teammates to do this every time you spawn is a pain.
I think one problem is that marines get to easy outmaneuvering by aliens. They are way to slow to reach hotspots and to busy to defend the base(es). Only JPs bring back a balance but then its to late.
In my opinion turrets could fix some problems. Make them strong like in NS1 (minimum), limit there numbers (you can build only 3-4 per Command Station) and marinebases are secured vs harrasing skulks in early-midgame.
And just improve the performance will also balance the game for marines :> (much better aiming with high fps ftw).
And maybe we need the good old electric defense on RTs back :). Yeah, expensive like hell but usefull vs all skulks :>.
Sorry for the reductio ad absurdum.
Point is Marines are more team/squad based. Aliens are supposed to be more individual. But both are more effective when they work as a team. How much more reliant Marines depend on teammates is what is being discussed here. With armor only healed by welders, it is being argued it is too much reliant on teamwork and an unnecessary detail/restriction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. My point is there was already plenty of team work needed by marines to compete. You already had to be in groups of at least 2-3 to take on life forms. Now, instead of those groups of 2-3 being effective against good life forms, they're spending the whole time left clicking on each other while fades and others pick them off. It's not instilling more team work, it's instilling an advantage to the aliens as now there's less guns shooting the alien as he picks off the marines with little to no armor.
I understand it's an asymmetrical game. My point is that team work was already required by the marine team. Travel in groups, protect bases, escort ARCS, focus fire, etc. Balance has just been incredibly broken with this unnecessary fix. Armories don't passively heal anything that's near it. Keep in mind you had to LOOK at it and be REMOVED from combat to even heal.
That has been brought up a couple times, but in my opinion it is false. Before, marines had to run up to an armory to regain armour. During that period they weren't shooting aliens either. Now marines can fight off the aliens (just like before), then weld each other on the spot and continue to push. Overall an advantage for the marines.
You, sir, are a man that stands alone. :)
Most people get frustrated and rage on their teammates when this happens, further debilitating their ability to work together.
<!--quoteo(post=1954639:date=Jul 28 2012, 11:01 AM:name=Raza.)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Raza. @ Jul 28 2012, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954639"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That has been brought up a couple times, but in my opinion it is false. Before, marines had to run up to an armory to regain armour. During that period they weren't shooting aliens either. Now marines can fight off the aliens (just like before), then weld each other on the spot and continue to push. Overall an advantage for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am not seeing marines using this advantage on any games I have played so far. I am seeing marines fumbling with welders and getting eaten by aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1954485:date=Jul 27 2012, 07:23 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 27 2012, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954485"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now welders are being made important again, and what you will find is that this isn't a NERF by any means. I see it as a step forward and its pushing people to not be <!--sizeo:7--><span style="font-size:36pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>BAD</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apparently it's not pushing people hard enough because marines are getting roasted.
Maybe to push them harder, increase the cost of the welder to 10 res instead of 5. ;)
Is bullying marines into a corner really going to make them win? I am thinking no.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we even playing the same game? :)
This post is the exact opposite of what I have been experiencing. :S
While i might agree with this, you are just trading 10tres for 5pres <u>per marine</u>, which potentially if everyone gets one is 75 pres in a 32 player game. So it kinda depends on how you look at it i guess.. imo if you solve the coordination/communication/ease of use issues, then it might just be the same as before..<b> But thats a hurdle.</b>
@fana: the fade does take 100% and i dont think it has to do with hitreg this time <b>as much</b> as the effects.
If you make the model opaque/visible you have much greater success - obviously.
Here's my theory on why, though: the effects trailing behind him are misaligned/ not center mass. They originate off of his head, a nigh impossible thing to shoot in blink and to compound matters the trail has that bright electrical effect which catches your eye, and overrides the potential for catching the fade's transparent model at a medium distance.
Observe these shots for reference, which aren't as accurate considering the fade is holding still, the effect is exaggerated at speed and at a distance:
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/HBOhT.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/HBOhT.jpg</a>
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/Tztk4.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/Tztk4.jpg</a>
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/rzrx8.jpg" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/rzrx8.jpg</a>
Yeah, that makes sense. Should be pretty high on the list of things to fix, although I would prefer they make blink hive1 and 100% visible and shadowstep hive2.
With all the positive points point forward in this discussion, why not remove hive healing, and remove alien armor healing from crags, and see what alien players think about that? Surely if using welders to repair armor encourages team play for marines, it should be a good thing to do the same for aliens.
I suppose you would have to nerf alien regeneration as well.
Contrary to what certain people claim in this thread, welding wasn't tedious at all, nor was it necessary to run around welding all the time, nor was running around with 0 armor, as marine, a death sentence. Most of the time I didn't even buy a welder, nor did most of the other marines from what I could tell, and we still won.
What I did observe, however, was that marines were no longer camping around armories or running back to base to get their armor back. It also seemed easier and faster to end marine endgame (when they've already lost) turtling.
This change is an unequivocal success. Doesn't matter how many poorly thought out arguments people jot down in this thread, the proof is in the pudding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because 10 rounds of public play proves everything..
The quality of the players in those 10 rounds is also something that is a pretty big variable. I don't see how you can rest your argument on such a shaky foundation. You could've played with or against complete noobs. Thus the "I won every game" statement would pretty much have no meaning in the discussion.
I don't see how this proves anything. It takes a ton more time and metagame development than just 10 pub games to determine if there are no problems with a change.
Here's hoping there aren't any problems. I was simply having my doubts with the simple statistical facts that Marines are very weak HP value wise without armor. Thus the skill required to survive against a full HP Fade must be quite phenomenal..