Just played six games this morning. Every one was an exercise in frustration. Four of them ended in marine recycles or F4. I can't hit or kill anything as a marine or alien, and now I have more "chores" with my welder.
Bleah.
I am just not having fun, and it's steadily been the case with each of the last builds, culminating in this one. Perhaps I was playing against really good players, always a factor. Perhaps I was not having a good day.
The worst part is that I'm frustrated enough, and no longer having fun, that I'm losing the interest to think of improvements. Seems that all the community suggestions post-214 were completely ignored.
<!--quoteo(post=1953959:date=Jul 27 2012, 02:36 AM:name=Daphisto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Daphisto @ Jul 27 2012, 02:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In all seriousness, spawning with welders might actually be pretty fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats how combat mode works with good players and i can see the type of gameplay the changes was trying to encourage. Its basically an armoury at your beck and call, and if the big broohah over 'armouries causing invincibility and turtles' had any merit, spawning with welders would be even worse.
The point is the change to armoury was uneccessary, negatively impacted pub gameplay, and the reasons stated just don't have much meat behind them.
[HEI] SpadeJoin Date: 2012-04-28Member: 151223Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1953961:date=Jul 26 2012, 06:45 PM:name=Cee Colon Slash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Jul 26 2012, 06:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The worst part is that I'm frustrated enough, and no longer having fun, that I'm losing the interest to think of improvements. Seems that all the community suggestions post-214 were completely ignored.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same feeling actually :S
As Elodea said: "The point is the change to armoury was uneccessary, negatively impacted pub gameplay, and the reasons stated just don't have much meat behind them."
You bring here an unnecessary change which will need some tweaks, BUT you forget other more important fixes needed before that! If you keep going that way the imbalance and the issues won't be addressed before launched...
Bad feeling about this build and how the game is going.
Backed up by the video probably as usual. But it's alright cause those videos are amazing, the way they give you much less information but take more time than reading the changelog.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
On topic of the armory giving armor back, I think the change was really good. The aliens are now able to wear down marines without welders, which is quite needed when they get to armor 3.
Previously you would see marines walking all the way back to base for hp and armor regeneration. This change discourages that, which I believe helps public play as well as organized play. Cause running back to the base for hp is not a good strategy as marines, in many cases you're best off doing as much damage as you can before you die. Staying on the offense, then to get spawned back in base to reclaim map control(save extractors etc.).
Just played a few rounds finally. Cant really say anything about any changes due to even lower fps than a couple of builds ago. Seems to be stuttering much more than usually and lots of times get 30-40fps which feels like 10-15 honestly. Needless to say that marines lose almost every in pubs round due to cant-hit-######-syndrome even tho skulks seem to be running straight line along the floor more than before (still warping tho). Skulk aircontrol was really wonky, no idea whats up with that.
How many times have i seen aliens easily destroy a marine expansion? I've lost count and that was with mines everywhere. The way the game is right now, you can have a good marine and alien team, but if the alien team plays with any semblance of coordination they will win time and time again. Just look at the all-in vs. S.C. comp. match for proof of that.
Marines need help in the early to mid game big time. I don't know what it is, but something has to be done. Because as of right now I cringe when I step into random and get put on the marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=1953986:date=Jul 26 2012, 01:33 PM:name=VoodooHex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VoodooHex @ Jul 26 2012, 01:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953986"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just look at the all-in vs. S.C. comp. match for proof of that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that was 214, not 215.
as far as welders go, its a big change, and not everyone playing is used to it yet. after a few days of playing and everyone gets used to the new way marines play (!welder = death) things might even out. but having a constant 5 pres sink for every marine when he spawns doesnt sound good to me.
ill wait for the changes to welding theyre talking about on twitter tho
<!--quoteo(post=1953991:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:53 AM:name=Drummer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drummer @ Jul 26 2012, 09:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->that was 214, not 215.
as far as welders go, its a big change, and not everyone playing is used to it yet. after a few days of playing and everyone gets used to the new way marines play (!welder = death) things might even out. but having a constant 5 pres sink for every marine when he spawns doesnt sound good to me.
ill wait for the changes to welding theyre talking about on twitter tho<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played multiple rounds of 215 last night and that was enough for me. The only difference i saw was that i had to walk around asking for someone to weld me while a fade gibbed the guy who did stop to weld me and than minced my face off right after.
<!--quoteo(post=1953995:date=Jul 26 2012, 08:57 PM:name=Mr.Greedy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Greedy @ Jul 26 2012, 08:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953995"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sounds strange but I am thinking that massive performance improvements will balance the game for marines :>.
This game is still a slideshow in too many situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hit reg and performance matter quite a bit for marines, at least early on. But from my experience at least, when second hive rolls out for aliens, it's still GG for marines in most cases. And blaming that solely on just hit reg and performance seems like a long shot. It sure doesn't help that you can basically get that second hive up before the 5 minute mark in most cases. Which leads me to the next issue, the early game is still too short!
Marines need an almost flawless early game to be able to stand a chance mid game. And even if they've had that, they will still somewhat struggle to compete with lerks and fades, provided the aliens aren't entirely incompetent.
<!--quoteo(post=1953909:date=Jul 26 2012, 09:39 AM:name=deathmonger87)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathmonger87 @ Jul 26 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe people are actually defending this change. You make it sound like it was ever hard to break a tie breaker when marines are holed up in their base. Seriously? You have a hard time with this when fades have unlimited energy? Better yet, an onos with unlimited energy? I can literally stomp all day. No, if you're having a hard time breaking up a situation like that then your teamwork sucks ass and you deserve to lose/get frustrated.
Think about it like this. In a 1 v 2 situation would you rather be an alien or a marine? And don't go with some dumb example like "well duh I'd rather be a marine with a JP, SG, and lvl 3 weapons/armor vs a skulk with no leap or cara!" Be realistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
instead of 15-30 minutes of trying to push into the last marine spawn, the change will make it end in 5 minutes. is it really that fun to drag out a game that's already unwinnable for one side?
<!--quoteo(post=1954037:date=Jul 27 2012, 06:06 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 27 2012, 06:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954037"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->instead of 15-30 minutes of trying to push into the last marine spawn, the change will make it end in 5 minutes. is it really that fun to drag out a game that's already unwinnable for one side?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol. Lets not fool ourselves. Armoury dragging game out for 15-30 minutes? Dear God. You guys will say anything to defend this change. I honest to God wouldn't make such a big fuss about the armoury change if people wern't continuously coming up with such ridiculously bad arguements for it.
Why can't we just be honest and say its a pres and convenience nerf for marines?
<!--quoteo(post=1953957:date=Jul 26 2012, 11:33 AM:name=mushookees)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mushookees @ Jul 26 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could of just made the armory like a Dispenser in TF2 if that was the big problem.
We might as well spawn with welders and remove the welder upgrade, its nothing but a false choice as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The speed of healing isn't really the point, as long as it's there marines will become dependent on it. I think it actually encourages bad behavior in pub players(i.e. always wanting to run back to base after getting hurt rather than venturing outwards) which can be detrimental to the team.
I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to free welders with research, we'll see how it goes. I wouldn't call it a false choice, but it might be preferable not to expect pub players to make a selfless purchase.
<!--quoteo(post=1954039:date=Jul 26 2012, 04:12 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jul 26 2012, 04:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lol. Lets not fool ourselves. Armoury dragging game out for 15-30 minutes? Dear God. You guys will say anything to defend this change. I honest to God wouldn't make such a big fuss about the armoury change if people wern't continuously coming up with such ridiculously bad arguements for it.
Why can't we just be honest and say its a pres and convenience nerf for marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm speaking from a pubber's perspective, where quite often marine turtles will drag on for upwards of half an hour. and the armory healing is a big part of that.
<!--quoteo(post=1954003:date=Jul 26 2012, 12:24 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Jul 26 2012, 12:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1954003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hit reg and performance matter quite a bit for marines, at least early on. But from my experience at least, when second hive rolls out for aliens, it's still GG for marines in most cases. And blaming that solely on just hit reg and performance seems like a long shot. It sure doesn't help that you can basically get that second hive up before the 5 minute mark in most cases. Which leads me to the next issue, the early game is still too short!
Marines need an almost flawless early game to be able to stand a chance mid game. And even if they've had that, they will still somewhat struggle to compete with lerks and fades, provided the aliens aren't entirely incompetent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I am fine with the fact a 2nd hive can come that soon. Why you ask? Because this essentially is greedy play and the marines should be able to punish said play. The problem is not that the aliens can do it, it's that the marines have trouble punishing them when they do in the current builds. It's a risk/reward scenario that is currently missing some of the risk.
edit: To add, one reason it's hard to punish is the fact that gorges can get so many hydras up around the early hive really preventing marines with no upgrades from being able to really hit the aliens hard and make them pay for brazen play. I'd say nerf hydras and then have them scale in power by number of hives or just go back to them costing pres so aliens really have to invest early if they want T2 abilities so fast. This isn't to say that they can't just all skulk to protect it but the static defenses + gorge healing + skulk harass makes it very hard to push into that quick expand and take it down.
I have to correct my earlier post, walljump is awesome right now. But the speed is too much. I got used to it pretty fast and now, its just flying around as a skulk. Mineshaft is the only map where its sometimes pretty hard to build up my speed.
I dont even use leap anymore, because it slows me down. Its an obsolete upgrade except vs JP. If its designed to close distance, its totally useless compared to walljump. As soon as the players start to use walljump, u will have to adjust it ... but for now, its only me using it. From what i ve seen of strayam's recordings on youtube, the playtesters dont use walljump at all (but they should, to balance it correctly).
<!--quoteo(post=1953851:date=Jul 26 2012, 02:46 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 26 2012, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1953851"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would have to disagree with the armor/armory change as well.
While the immediate negative reactions to it could in fact be considered growing pains, I think it truly does add tedious-ness to the marine playstyle. A lot, when you consider the powernode change went in at the same time.
Right now when I play the game I feel I have to work so. much. harder. to win a game as a marine when compared to aliens. There are underlying problems that the dev's have not even tried to address in this game. Marines more or less forfeiting map control when leap timings come out. Leap skulks are arguably the most effective unit in all of NS2, have the highest skill floor and one of the lower skill ceilings. Good fades still cannot be killed. Vortex is still a completely imbalanced ability. Killing cysts is still a snore-worthy chore. There is no scaling for aliens so things like Carapace are too strong early game and arguably weak late game. Feint is still broken on Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot the eff on.
This game needs to be fun and skillful. But making things a chore is not making them skill-based. Encourages teamwork some.. but more like teamchores.
If you make welders a REQUIREMENT then they need to be free. It's BS they cost res. As I've said many times, Aliens have the easy ability to just take territory without having to build stuff. Marines have the HANDICAP of having to build everything.
The armor change is simply way too much to put on the marine team. Now after every engagement, the group must spend unnecessary amounts of time fixing themselves up instead of doing the ALREADY insurmountable amount of things marines must do to win and compete.
What I mean is instead of defending an RT, repairing and RT, Pushing an enemy harvester or position, building structures, or providing cover fire we are now standing around trying to get each other to weld so we don't get 2 shotted by anything.
Not to mention this decreases the value of the armor upgrades. There's just too much of a time sink and a chore constantly having to repair each other. It's not fun. It's incredibly frustrating. A step backwards in balance.
Never (in my 432 hours) of NS2 playing aliens have I gone "wow, I can't out DPS that marine because he's staring at an armory and it heals him faster than I can bite!". To be honest that is never the case. You get +20 or so from the armory in the same amount of time you can bite a LOT more damage from him in the rear end. There's also a really effective strategy of having a lerk poison gas the armory. This makes it so the marine has to never leave the armory to get full health OR he has to chose to leave the Armory and have lesser health for doing so.
In the early game, the forward armory provides the same strategic advantage as a gorge's forward Hydras, so I don't see that as a valid argument for balance either considering both a forward armory and forward gorge can be countered with higher lifeforms and grenade launchers.
TL:DR - Marines now spend too much time clicking each other to be able to effectively compete with a competent alien team.
The issue is not that you cannot kill marines just staring at the armory, just that its harder than it should be to kill marines camping base. You can run in as fade and get three swipes, leaving an A3 marine with 40 ish HP.. In just under 5 seconds that marine can be full HP again because of the armory. It also promotes countless players running out and encountering ONE skulk, getting bit and running all the way back to get full hp/armor, because they know that they can. NS1 had this same mechanic, and had arguably MORE reason to have armories heal armor, and it was never a balance issue. Your not getting one swiped or bite by aliens in NS2, there is no focus.
There are countless other reasons for the imbalances in the game, but yes armory not repairing armor does make it easier for aliens. In the end your just rewarding poor play on the marines part however, you cant say that given a already balanced game that armory not repairing armor would be gamebreaking.
In the end I cant see how welding your teammates is more of a 'chore' or 'tedious' then standing infront of an armory. It does require more coordination which is a good thing, arguably the only things making it difficult now is the lack of welders being purchased (fana's idea is actually good), and people not knowing to use them (weld me bind?).
I use to think armory regenerating armor was important but now I think the strength discrepancy between a marine near an armory that heals armor and a marine far from an armory was too high, they had to make marines near an armory weaker (which is what they did). Now they have to also make marines on the field stronger.
Comments
Bleah.
I am just not having fun, and it's steadily been the case with each of the last builds, culminating in this one. Perhaps I was playing against really good players, always a factor. Perhaps I was not having a good day.
The worst part is that I'm frustrated enough, and no longer having fun, that I'm losing the interest to think of improvements. Seems that all the community suggestions post-214 were completely ignored.
I'll check in again with 216.
Thats how combat mode works with good players and i can see the type of gameplay the changes was trying to encourage. Its basically an armoury at your beck and call, and if the big broohah over 'armouries causing invincibility and turtles' had any merit, spawning with welders would be even worse.
The point is the change to armoury was uneccessary, negatively impacted pub gameplay, and the reasons stated just don't have much meat behind them.
Same feeling actually :S
As Elodea said:
"The point is the change to armoury was uneccessary, negatively impacted pub gameplay, and the reasons stated just don't have much meat behind them."
You bring here an unnecessary change which will need some tweaks, BUT you forget other more important fixes needed before that! If you keep going that way the imbalance and the issues won't be addressed before launched...
Bad feeling about this build and how the game is going.
Backed up by the video probably as usual. But it's alright cause those videos are amazing, the way they give you much less information but take more time than reading the changelog.
The aliens are now able to wear down marines without welders, which is quite needed when they get to armor 3.
Previously you would see marines walking all the way back to base for hp and armor regeneration.
This change discourages that, which I believe helps public play as well as organized play.
Cause running back to the base for hp is not a good strategy as marines, in many cases you're best off doing as much damage as you can before you die. Staying on the offense, then to get spawned back in base to reclaim map control(save extractors etc.).
Marines need help in the early to mid game big time. I don't know what it is, but something has to be done. Because as of right now I cringe when I step into random and get put on the marine team.
that was 214, not 215.
as far as welders go, its a big change, and not everyone playing is used to it yet. after a few days of playing and everyone gets used to the new way marines play (!welder = death) things might even out. but having a constant 5 pres sink for every marine when he spawns doesnt sound good to me.
ill wait for the changes to welding theyre talking about on twitter tho
as far as welders go, its a big change, and not everyone playing is used to it yet. after a few days of playing and everyone gets used to the new way marines play (!welder = death) things might even out. but having a constant 5 pres sink for every marine when he spawns doesnt sound good to me.
ill wait for the changes to welding theyre talking about on twitter tho<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I played multiple rounds of 215 last night and that was enough for me. The only difference i saw was that i had to walk around asking for someone to weld me while a fade gibbed the guy who did stop to weld me and than minced my face off right after.
This game is still a slideshow in too many situations.
This game is still a slideshow in too many situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen.
Marines need an almost flawless early game to be able to stand a chance mid game. And even if they've had that, they will still somewhat struggle to compete with lerks and fades, provided the aliens aren't entirely incompetent.
Think about it like this. In a 1 v 2 situation would you rather be an alien or a marine? And don't go with some dumb example like "well duh I'd rather be a marine with a JP, SG, and lvl 3 weapons/armor vs a skulk with no leap or cara!" Be realistic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
instead of 15-30 minutes of trying to push into the last marine spawn, the change will make it end in 5 minutes. is it really that fun to drag out a game that's already unwinnable for one side?
lol. Lets not fool ourselves. Armoury dragging game out for 15-30 minutes? Dear God. You guys will say anything to defend this change. I honest to God wouldn't make such a big fuss about the armoury change if people wern't continuously coming up with such ridiculously bad arguements for it.
Why can't we just be honest and say its a pres and convenience nerf for marines?
Perhaps I'll give this another go tonight and relay my personal feedback.
We might as well spawn with welders and remove the welder upgrade, its nothing but a false choice as it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The speed of healing isn't really the point, as long as it's there marines will become dependent on it. I think it actually encourages bad behavior in pub players(i.e. always wanting to run back to base after getting hurt rather than venturing outwards) which can be detrimental to the team.
I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to free welders with research, we'll see how it goes. I wouldn't call it a false choice, but it might be preferable not to expect pub players to make a selfless purchase.
GG
Either move the welder to slot4 or give it the same dps as the axe.
Increase the cost of the welder upgrade significantly to force marine comms to choose between getting welders or some other upgrade.
Make the welder upgrade give every marine a free welder on spawn.
Yay!
Why can't we just be honest and say its a pres and convenience nerf for marines?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm speaking from a pubber's perspective, where quite often marine turtles will drag on for upwards of half an hour. and the armory healing is a big part of that.
Marines need an almost flawless early game to be able to stand a chance mid game. And even if they've had that, they will still somewhat struggle to compete with lerks and fades, provided the aliens aren't entirely incompetent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, I am fine with the fact a 2nd hive can come that soon. Why you ask? Because this essentially is greedy play and the marines should be able to punish said play. The problem is not that the aliens can do it, it's that the marines have trouble punishing them when they do in the current builds. It's a risk/reward scenario that is currently missing some of the risk.
edit: To add, one reason it's hard to punish is the fact that gorges can get so many hydras up around the early hive really preventing marines with no upgrades from being able to really hit the aliens hard and make them pay for brazen play. I'd say nerf hydras and then have them scale in power by number of hives or just go back to them costing pres so aliens really have to invest early if they want T2 abilities so fast. This isn't to say that they can't just all skulk to protect it but the static defenses + gorge healing + skulk harass makes it very hard to push into that quick expand and take it down.
Need team mates for those hard to reach places.
I dont even use leap anymore, because it slows me down. Its an obsolete upgrade except vs JP. If its designed to close distance, its totally useless compared to walljump.
As soon as the players start to use walljump, u will have to adjust it ... but for now, its only me using it.
From what i ve seen of strayam's recordings on youtube, the playtesters dont use walljump at all (but they should, to balance it correctly).
While the immediate negative reactions to it could in fact be considered growing pains, I think it truly does add tedious-ness to the marine playstyle. A lot, when you consider the powernode change went in at the same time.
Right now when I play the game I feel I have to work so. much. harder. to win a game as a marine when compared to aliens. There are underlying problems that the dev's have not even tried to address in this game. Marines more or less forfeiting map control when leap timings come out. Leap skulks are arguably the most effective unit in all of NS2, have the highest skill floor and one of the lower skill ceilings. Good fades still cannot be killed. Vortex is still a completely imbalanced ability. Killing cysts is still a snore-worthy chore. There is no scaling for aliens so things like Carapace are too strong early game and arguably weak late game. Feint is still broken on Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spot the eff on.
This game needs to be fun and skillful. But making things a chore is not making them skill-based. Encourages teamwork some.. but more like teamchores.
What I mean is instead of defending an RT, repairing and RT, Pushing an enemy harvester or position, building structures, or providing cover fire we are now standing around trying to get each other to weld so we don't get 2 shotted by anything.
Not to mention this decreases the value of the armor upgrades. There's just too much of a time sink and a chore constantly having to repair each other. It's not fun. It's incredibly frustrating. A step backwards in balance.
Never (in my 432 hours) of NS2 playing aliens have I gone "wow, I can't out DPS that marine because he's staring at an armory and it heals him faster than I can bite!". To be honest that is never the case. You get +20 or so from the armory in the same amount of time you can bite a LOT more damage from him in the rear end. There's also a really effective strategy of having a lerk poison gas the armory. This makes it so the marine has to never leave the armory to get full health OR he has to chose to leave the Armory and have lesser health for doing so.
In the early game, the forward armory provides the same strategic advantage as a gorge's forward Hydras, so I don't see that as a valid argument for balance either considering both a forward armory and forward gorge can be countered with higher lifeforms and grenade launchers.
TL:DR - Marines now spend too much time clicking each other to be able to effectively compete with a competent alien team.
There are countless other reasons for the imbalances in the game, but yes armory not repairing armor does make it easier for aliens. In the end your just rewarding poor play on the marines part however, you cant say that given a already balanced game that armory not repairing armor would be gamebreaking.
In the end I cant see how welding your teammates is more of a 'chore' or 'tedious' then standing infront of an armory. It does require more coordination which is a good thing, arguably the only things making it difficult now is the lack of welders being purchased (fana's idea is actually good), and people not knowing to use them (weld me bind?).