Mandatory gorge?
.ADHd
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
I was just thinking about how you could balance the early game a little more for the marines by forcing the aliens to need a gorge in order to build RT's in any <b>reasonable</b> amount of time. <b> Keep in mind I am not saying to have to force the team to have a gorge</b>, but only if they want to have res inflow early game. It seems the aliens need less res than marines do at times due to the games current balance. It's very easy on aliens to collect resources while pressuring the enemies just as equally. This part of the game should not be so <b>asymmetric</b> since every other strategy game has a <b>resource collecting time</b>.
I feel like previous builds were trying to experiment with that concept but it eventually was left in the dust? I remember in build 206 you saw tons of gorge play by even some teams best shooters, due to how important of a team role it was.
The hydra placements and RT building were a big aspect of the game in 206, but it appears now that teams can easily get away with doing <b>full skulk pushes</b> due to how effective they are. If you take one of those skulks out of the game, and slow down alien res income for a bit, you may experience a more overall balanced game in the short and long run. Perhaps give the harvesters a slight buff in health to reward the team for using teamwork to build the harvesters in a MUCH faster time ;)
Just a thought. I have noticed that perhaps the largest problem with the aliens economy is that early game they have way too much res to spend on <b>expansion</b> which is the only thing important for early game on aliens (Other than leap or some other upgrade). Especially in small games you will notice marines can get up about 2-3 rt's by the time the alien commander has cysted basically the rest of the entire map. Many players ignore pushing into alien territory to kill cysts early game because it is not important, and it often gives you away and gets you killed.
I think there are a lot of small details like this that could have a profound effect that graphs and numbers may not be able to show. Perhaps it isn't the res flow, economy, and upgrades that are causing imbalance... perhaps it is the nature of the gameplay. Of course players play a certain way due to their knowledge of game balance, so exploit that by balancing something else and making them play differently. Carving out a new way to play by balancing other aspects of the game can create these different ways to play. Like having to have a gorge early on, and making it an important class for kick starting the aliens early game. It seems like our gorgies are mostly being used to bile bomb bases now and trick marines into hydra gardens... fun as well but he could be expanded on. It could help balance the rest of the game as well.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Please don't make your text hard to read by colouring it unnecessarily.
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I feel like previous builds were trying to experiment with that concept but it eventually was left in the dust? I remember in build 206 you saw tons of gorge play by even some teams best shooters, due to how important of a team role it was.
The hydra placements and RT building were a big aspect of the game in 206, but it appears now that teams can easily get away with doing <b>full skulk pushes</b> due to how effective they are. If you take one of those skulks out of the game, and slow down alien res income for a bit, you may experience a more overall balanced game in the short and long run. Perhaps give the harvesters a slight buff in health to reward the team for using teamwork to build the harvesters in a MUCH faster time ;)
Just a thought. I have noticed that perhaps the largest problem with the aliens economy is that early game they have way too much res to spend on <b>expansion</b> which is the only thing important for early game on aliens (Other than leap or some other upgrade). Especially in small games you will notice marines can get up about 2-3 rt's by the time the alien commander has cysted basically the rest of the entire map. Many players ignore pushing into alien territory to kill cysts early game because it is not important, and it often gives you away and gets you killed.
I think there are a lot of small details like this that could have a profound effect that graphs and numbers may not be able to show. Perhaps it isn't the res flow, economy, and upgrades that are causing imbalance... perhaps it is the nature of the gameplay. Of course players play a certain way due to their knowledge of game balance, so exploit that by balancing something else and making them play differently. Carving out a new way to play by balancing other aspects of the game can create these different ways to play. Like having to have a gorge early on, and making it an important class for kick starting the aliens early game. It seems like our gorgies are mostly being used to bile bomb bases now and trick marines into hydra gardens... fun as well but he could be expanded on. It could help balance the rest of the game as well.
<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Please don't make your text hard to read by colouring it unnecessarily.
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Comments
In NS1 it wasn't such a big deal because the gorge had to build EVERYTHING, not just resource towers. Plus, the gorge had way more jobs to fill, instead of just making a wall with some turrets.
In NS1 it wasn't such a big deal because the gorge had to build EVERYTHING, not just resource towers. Plus, the gorge had way more jobs to fill, instead of just making a wall with some turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coincidentally, the g<b>e</b>orge fills those same roles in NS2...or it would if people were pushed to using them instead of getting total map control for free from their commander.
In after pathetic "but NS1 did that" argument. NEXT!
Also, saying the gorge is the weakest class is naive.
Where was that?
Adding artificial responsibility does not seem fun. "you used to be able to build res towers, but now you need a gorge to get anything done!" is just a bad idea. The comm is STILL making all the decisions, all that's happening is a designated player has to run around the map hitting the Use key, compared to the nearest marine just walking over to help out for a second. Having to spend res for the "privilege" of evolving into the required base monkey? No thanks.
Considering gorges and the team as a whole actually used to make decisions, I'd say a comparison to NS1 is quite due here, thank you.
edit:
Reread OP:
Still sounds like you wanted an incentive for a skulk to be a gorge right away at game start, but you still basically wanted them to run around and be human MACs.
I'm all for a new reason to be added for the gorge to see gameplay, but that's definitely not one of them. Being "half" a commander with no authority is not the way to go in my opinion.
As for gorge being weakest, he can wall off areas, which is good for denial - this is cool. He can heal hives and players - also cool. However, medics are generally weak classes and only find their strength in supporting others. I find it very difficult to support basic classes as a healer (since skulks are so fragile and often kamikaze), and find walls to be boring to mantain. There aren't many other options for most of the game.
Whether you like that gameplay or not, I don't want to see a team forced to have a player in that position.
<!--quoteo(post=1949286:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:37 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 10:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 it wasn't such a big deal because the gorge had to build EVERYTHING, not just resource towers. Plus, the gorge had way more jobs to fill, instead of just making a wall with some turrets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You knew it wasn't a real idea so you didn't write a 10,000 word essay about it. But it's still what you were thinking when you replied without knowing what you're talking about.
<!--quoteo(post=1949290:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding artificial responsibility does not seem fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing artificial about "making players get involved in the RTS side of the game directly, instead of putting every burden on the commander, and then having to make alien building/map control childishly easy"
All the marines have to build. In NS1 (lollololololo) both teams have to send players to build. In RTS games, workers build (even the protoss can't just conjure buildings from a big god finger in the sky).
Do you <b>honestly </b>think the gorge in NS1 isn't "artificial responsibility" in the way you describe, just because it can make SC/DC/MC as well as OC buildings?
<!--quoteo(post=1949290:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->all that's happening is a designated player has to run around the map hitting the Use key<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is <b>so </b>silly, but I can't call you a rude name so I'll explain why it's silly and you probably won't understand.
The crux of adhd's post is that making gorges work out in the open will create variability and opportunities for skill-indexed activity in the game, because it's <b>not </b>as simple as someone hitting the use key on stuff. They need escorts, they need map control, they need to fight against or escape from enemies. Right now, all that stuff is nonexistent at many points in the game. You can't pressure someone to prevent them getting map control, because they can make more cysts than you have players, and build anywhere they want without 'spending' a player on that area.
There's no 'give and take' until an ARC train shows up, and it makes the game pretty much impossible to enjoy unless you just bought it and you're still taking in all the pretty colours. Being afraid of raising the game beyond "win at random as aliens, or die to ARCs" is a great way to make sure NS2 is a horrible failure at release. I don't want that, but it's not clear with some of you..
In NS1 it was not uncommon to see at least 2 gorges early game (Equaling 1 alien comm + a gorge).
So, 2 players out of the equation.
Why is this important? Well basically it makes it so both teams have to spend their early game collecting resources. There will be a little combat sparse through the map because both teams know they need to collect res to continue on. In NS2, this whole concept has been left in the dust and it is causing major problems when the game is balanced on paper.
The aliens have too much of a fighting force, and the marines have this friend called nano construct. This basically makes it so neither team has to spend any time at all collecting resources and planning a strategy. It is just... shoot shoot shoot... and hope your team has a better res income. Getting kills has almost no effect on the overall game right now whereas in NS1 it would give that team an edge on early game resource collecting. Aliens lost a player and the marines have more hands to collect and vice-versa. Right now marines B-line to build res towers closest to their base, and build them in <i>nano</i> seconds :-P.
There is no early game in NS2 anymore. Nano construct should be gone, and the aliens should have to be ogligated to stay near their base early game to protect resources, since they will have more defense options right away than the marines.
Keep in mind right now the aliens pretty much only have to CC rush for the first 5 mins if they want to win. The marines wont be able to leave far from base while the alien commander takes the entire map. It works in theory and in practice.
Explain to me your logic in why you think this is good gameplay and not forcing both teams to build up early game is bad? Is it because <b>you</b> personally find the gorge boring? Do you find tedious gameplay tasks to be boring? Well you might and that is fine, but some things would help the overall gameplay at the expense of your own exclusive enjoyment. Many others will rejoice if this change was made.
Do you <b>honestly </b>think the gorge in NS1 isn't "artificial responsibility" in the way you describe, just because it can make SC/DC/MC as well as OC buildings?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is more fun?
Helping a comm out by building a couple structures for him then running off to fight/help somewhere else.
Placing and building structures on your own initiative - or filling the requests of your team - knowing your placement will help the team. (popping a good DC + MC foreward base, for example)
Playing out the role of a MAC without being able to defend yourself, because your team can't play if you don't.
Decision making with some forced building = OK
Fighting capability with occasional forced building = OK
Adding more forced building without giving anything else new doesn't sound fun. *shrug* It's already bad enough finding a Comm some games, why do we need to force someone to comm AND someone to gorge?
<!--quoteo(post=1949293:date=Jul 5 2012, 09:57 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 5 2012, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me your logic in why you think this is good gameplay and not forcing both teams to build up early game is bad? Is it because <b>you</b> personally find the gorge boring? Do you find tedious gameplay tasks to be boring? Well you might and that is fine, but some things would help the overall gameplay at the expense of your own exclusive enjoyment. Many others will rejoice if this change was made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd LOVE to see incentive to play gorge, and to ease the pace of an early game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was just thinking about how you could balance the early game a little more for the marines by forcing the aliens to need a gorge in order to build RT's in any reasonable amount of time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
All I'm saying is I don't like the sound of this.
Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and get made fun of anymore. If they try your suggestion, I'll play it. If not, I'll continue to think what I think.
Helping a comm out by building a couple structures for him then running off to fight/help somewhere else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds like the design goal of hypermutation. Or did I just blow your mind?
<!--quoteo(post=1949296:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Placing and building structures on your own initiative - or filling the requests of your team - knowing your placement will help the team. (popping a good DC + MC foreward base, for example)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the difference? The difference is the gorge player actually puts something on the line, and has to make difficult decisions. The commander does not. The commander is a joke, and it's a big part of why aliens get full map dominance for zero skill investment in most games.
<!--quoteo(post=1949296:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Playing out the role of a MAC without being able to defend yourself, because your team can't play if you don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of your team's "play" is <i>defending you</i>. That's why you have weapons and abilities that make them strong in the context of combat (heals, spit with a slow effect, bilebomb removing structures while teammates focus on players).
In a good version of NS2, your team can't play if all of you choose to be ignorant sadsacks and not play the gorge. In the current version of NS2, the aliens get away with that most games because the true role of the gorge has been so de-emphasized by experimental mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=1949296:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Decision making with some forced building = OK
Fighting capability with occasional forced building = OK
Adding more forced building without giving anything else new doesn't sound fun. *shrug* It's already bad enough finding a Comm some games, why do we need to force someone to comm AND someone to gorge?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gorge already has lots of non-building mechanics, as mentioned above. Healing allows you and your teammates to tip the scales in battles. Spit allows you to slow and weaken enemies. Bellyslide (when it was actually worth using) allowed you to move in and out of combat on your turf (infestation).
Again, you're afraid because you don't understand. You think the gorge is all about doing tedious robotic tasks because you've probably never played it in an exhilerating game. It's a shame NS2 is creating this!
<!--quoteo(post=1949296:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949296"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and get made fun of anymore. If they try your suggestion, I'll play it. If not, I'll continue to think what I think.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't let the door hit you on the way out, bro. Great things (games or otherwise) aren't made by a bunch of people who are afraid to figure things out and actually produce quality results. Acting like you've been thrown in a gas chamber because someone disagreed with you and had the wherewithal to explain why ............. is a bad approach to life.
This is an RTS / FPS strategy game. Not COD... well I would hope at least....
Also, deadzone we are not making fun of you. I see the game one way and you see the game another. Both of us have valid opinions on topics.
Good medic video IE, it would be really awesome to see similar gameplay with the gorge. Really taking advantage of helping the team rather than spending time trying to <!--coloro:#FF0000--><span style="color:#FF0000"><!--/coloro--><!--sizeo:5--><span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->trick marines into hydra nests and getting your fades and onos killed because of clogs<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.... It caters too much to peoples <!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>selfish side</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> when the gorge is supposed to be the opposite.
Good points OP, although in the current build a good gorge or two are of extreme benefit to a team (at least until the GLs pop, and even then they are still useful). Gorge emplacements at crucial chokepoints can be a real pain for marines and of huge benefit to the alien comm. Also keep in mind that leap not only has combat applications but also (this is arguably more important) has logistical implications since using it you can get around the map as fast if not faster than with celerity, I bet this contributes in big part to the aliens ability to defend their sprawling cyst empires all the while frequently pressuring the marine team with a significant portion of their team thus I would advise waiting till they retie upgrades to hives as they intend to before making concrete balance judgements. Still the gorge could use more stuff to do, especially in the late game where your only real job is putting hydras on ceilings to shoot down JPs and bombing the marine base. Gorge certainly lacks that gardener feel the devs spoke of wanting to create (or was that the kharaa comm?). Also, why is all the writing grey?
EDIT: Oh yeah and rushing into the marine base with your onosi to heal them, which is pretty damn exciting (if prohibitively laggy).
actually all I smell is bads making this game bad
but to each his own!
Regardless of weather nano construct makes it fast, or the marines not needing a dedicated builder to make RTs, the fact remains that marine expansion requires player input and alien expansion does not.
Giving an incentive for players to gorge early and not just wall off an area and keep marines busy for ~5 min is a good thing. The only real problem i could see is that gorges have a limit on their structures and can only really defend 1 area, thus gorges wouldn't be able to keep up with kahmm's expansion. If hydras were a permenant again and clogs were more able to close off an area with fewer objects, the gorge could drop 1 or 2 per RT with a wall to slow marines down and keep moving, supporting the team as they went along. This would make the gorge A LOT more powerful in terms of support.
Going back to tf2, the medic is a very fun support class to play because of how much of a positive effect he has on the team (over heal, ubercharge for example) if the gorge's effect on the team were made more "powerful", the gorge would feel more satisfying to play because the player would feel useful.
Also, the mysterious spider that is supposed to be coming in might give some more power to the gorge.
<ul><li>heal every wounded player</li><li>overheal every player on your team and keep them overhealed</li><li>build up ubercharge without dying</li><li>watch your teams back</li></ul>
If I haven't understood the op (and I'm really not sure about this) the problem seems to be, that the gorge is not enough fun to play to be chosen more often. As Deadzone said, it is very bad game design to force a player to do something he does not want. It would be a better solution if the gorge would be more fun.
The overhealing was mentioned before. Why not adding this as an upgrade for the gorge? (An upgrade, so it doesn't touch vanilla early game.)
If the aliens are to fast and this overhealing doesn't really works, why not give the gorge a building that does that? ("Two skulks with one stone")
Something like Ubercharge could work too. Collect healing-points and if you collected enough, you can give one alien unlimited energy for 10sec.
Many more possible solutions that make the gorge more fun in the game without forcing anyone to do anything.
Another advantage of the targeted healing of the medic is he does not have to stare at the arse of a Heavy when healing. A gorge must do this, which means he cannot watch the battlefield nearly as well, nor what is behind him. The medic in TF2 can and will alert the heavy of enemies.
Gorges problems currently is how poorly he scales to late game for holding defensive positions. Hydras don't scale well past 3 minutes into the game, with marines just jumping past them or walking through them to the gorge. Only way to hold a position is to build enough cogs to make this impassable. Ultimately the hydras are there now just to stop a marine from knifing the cogs.
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Clogs have been around for a while now, are they working ? Did people found some fun, creative or effective ways of using them ?
Some gorges are blocking vents and fade escape routes, they don't work so well in the aspect.
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About gorge building, I think it's a bit boring, the analogy with marines don't work so well because every marine can build so it's not always the same player which is building, and they can build together, which speed up the process quite a bit.
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Clogs have been around for a while now, are they working ? Did people found some fun, creative or effective ways of using them ?
Some gorges are blocking vents and fade escape routes, they don't work so well in the aspect.
*
About gorge building, I think it's a bit boring, the analogy with marines don't work so well because every marine can build so it's not always the same player which is building, and they can build together, which speed up the process quite a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As alien I go Gorge early game and communicate with a commander a quick build all the havester on the map and secure the forward most one with clogs and hydras. I lvoe supporting like this and only wish he could support in this manner more thoroughly.
So... I hearitly disagree with your sentiment about the gorge. His gameplay feels nice right now, he requires even more support capability!
So... I hearitly disagree with your sentiment about the gorge. His gameplay feels nice right now, he requires even more support capability!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#aadd00--><span style="color:#aadd00"><!--/coloro-->I do much of the same, it feels quite rewarding, I do generally make a point of leaving an opening for escapes. If this isn't an option for some reason I'll stay very close and quickly open the wall as needed. Generally Onos is the only issue though since gorges don't go wandering around and the rest of the classes have some method of jumping walls. I don't really get the vent blocking though, that hardly seems a good use of clogs in most cases. You should be covering choke points with them more often than not to impede marine advance.
Personally I find clogs to be far too weak still, especially to grenades, wasn't there a point to them being strong against them with the way they take damage? A cap on how much damage they take per hit if I'm not mistaken. Because they still are going down within no time at all.
Edit: Granted, that implementation was before the dedicated grenade launcher change, and it hasn't been changed to reflect this new environment. Whips feel the same way though and those definitely have been altered since. <!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
So... I hearitly disagree with your sentiment about the gorge. His gameplay feels nice right now, he requires even more support capability!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed I love the symbiotic relationship we have with the commander atm. Gorges help the commander, and the commader later helps the gorge with crags and whips by his hydras. Early game he helps the gorge by cyst chaining to where the gorge is holding.
I would like more support abilities, for both sides. Maybe commanders being able to temporarily buff the hydras - or overcharge them. Maybe gorges should be able to overheal structures (but not players).
This would give the gorge more use late game since it would "scale" with hives and always be able to support multiple rooms, one with a mini-crag and all his hydras/clogs and one with heal spray where his team is fighting..
Come to think of it, if gorge buildings are going to stay free (i'm against this), having their hp/dmg go up with each additional hive would make gorges viable the whole game, would just be really boring without some other kind of structure to build.
This would give the gorge more use late game since it would "scale" with hives and always be able to support multiple rooms, one with a mini-crag and all his hydras/clogs and one with heal spray where his team is fighting..
Come to think of it, if gorge buildings are going to stay free (i'm against this), having their hp/dmg go up with each additional hive would make gorges viable the whole game, would just be really boring without some other kind of structure to build.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nah I disagree about mini-crags. I like how gorges and the commander have totally separate buildings. It makes them rely upon eachother more.
It would be nice if hydras scaled up a bit though - perhaps more armour from each hive. Hydras in general need a big tracking buff though, since marines can dodge their shots too easy.
This simple balance change to harvester growth time simply gives incentive for teams to use gorges in a more defense oriented way early game. It changes the gorges gameplay back to what it was in NS1... which was balanced, and tactical.
The gorge is a gimmick class now. All I see them useful for is bile bombing marines bases and healing other players. Even though those two things are very useful, bile bomb is a late game tech, and healing players isn't so important due to regen and crags. With crag spam, regen, and how fast harvesters grow already, gorges are very obsolete in the overall picture of <i><b>WINNING</b></i>.
The only time I ever play as gorge is when I feel like griefing people and pretending to be in a sandbox game. I rarely do much for the team and make clog forts and hydra nests way off of creep and my teams territory (I love how marines can't build on creep but aliens can build anywhere... balanced). Essentially griefing the other team until they have better weapons or a group of marines. Basically, just wasting time that could have been spent helping the team expand and heal, so I can make stupid minecraft forts. I feel like some of the most diehard Natural Selection fans are being trolled and denied one of the most original, tactical and fun classes... it's honestly how I feel. The gorges role has been obliterated and at the cost of the rest of the games balance.
If you give players too much freedom, and too many creative options, there will be no sense of direction and no incentive to play as a team. You are essentially making a game like COD where everyone ignores eachother and does their own thing. It's great in games like COD, but not Natural Selection. Perhaps it's not so bad to go incentives for people to play as a team. I mean... this is a team game after-all yet there is a gigantic plague of people only wanting to do their own thing in this game. Taking more aspects from Left 4 Dead and Team Fortress would help this game immensely. Right now I feel it going in the direction of a COD perk fest where everybody wins!
That is a 'fact' many seem to disagree with.
Just like getting slight of hand, the damage upgrade in COD and camping is very rewarding.... to you. The team however? I am saying to benefit the game as a whole... and the team as a whole... the gorge needs to be reworked. Sadly at the expense of not allowing people to go off ignoring their whole team for their own selfish goals. Play fade if you want to be independent... not gorge.
But I guess making an FPS game and throwing a huge pointless RTS system into makes sense when the design goals are going the complete opposite direction of an RTS / teamplay game.
Why reward players who ignore the main goals of an RTS / economy based game? If UWE wants to make a COD style game with marines and aliens instead... then why put so much work and effort into making an RTS and a whole RTS economy to go with it if you are just going to give players incentive to ignore it? *my veins are about to burst*
I was drawn to this game because it was a hybrid game... and I lean towards the strategy RTS side... even though my background is almost completely twitch shooters. It was the RTS that made this game unique. If I want to go around shooting stuff and not have to think EVER; I wouldn't be playing Natural Selection 2. With that in mind I hope UWE takes this RTS thing just a tad more seriously since this game is at least twice as much of an RTS than NS1 was...
Honestly UWE is just better off making the commanders AI if they want to just make an FPS. Or having res accumulate at the same equal rate for both teams and taking havesters out of the picture completely. At least then it would be balanced and both teams will get to experience full tech. Theres really no incentives for players to contribute to the economy and RTS side at the moment. The comms are just the teams ###### at the moment.
It wouldn't accomplish the goal ADHD has set out with this thread.
There's nothing dynamic between the teams about managing shade/crag/shift upgrades. It's not the same as taking forward territory (harvesters etc), because it's very rare that you will have to fight to secure your building of choice. If people are going to evolve gorge and then push a button to make a spur once in a while, they may as well be playing the commander. If they're going to evolve gorge and <b>go where skulks go</b>, they might actually have an exciting game (and, as a nice byproduct, the expansion rate of aliens can be put into a sane form).
<!--quoteo(post=1949358:date=Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In much earlier builds, when cysts and builder drifters competed for hive energy and Gorges had pres minicysts, a Gorge or two at the start was a must for early expansion - without, you'd spend a lot of time not having enough harvesters while watching the hive energy tick over, and the consequences of that slow early res income were felt throughout the whole game. While it was certainly frustrating feeling impotent as the alien commander on a team with no early Gorges, having those Gorges on the field - vulnerable units out front playing a vital role in expansion, being high priority targets and needing their teammates' support - actually worked out pretty well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct. Pre-206 (was it 206?) builds always had gorges involved, and the game felt MUCH more like natural selection. The requirement of the gorge meant that the aliens in the field had to work together. The commander was still important, but did not get map control for his team in a way that is completely removed from the combat and player-player dynamics of the game (as it is now). Players had to make a res/time/map presence investment in order to take territory, the same way marines have always had to. In the new builds, we consistently see aliens get a lot of free map control because their gameplay is just plain easier in this regard.
No amount of changing economics and cyst mechanics will solve the root problem here. No 10,000 word high school level economics explanations will fix the fact that the alien commander plays 95% of the game for his team, and it's extremely easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1949374:date=Jul 6 2012, 07:43 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jul 6 2012, 07:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949374"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nice medic video. Actually I played medic a lot in TF2 and I think I know why it was fun. You have the following jobs as medic:
<ul><li>heal every wounded player</li><li>overheal every player on your team and keep them overhealed</li><li>build up ubercharge without dying</li><li>watch your teams back</li></ul>
If I haven't understood the op (and I'm really not sure about this) the problem seems to be, that the gorge is not enough fun to play to be chosen more often. As Deadzone said, it is very bad game design to force a player to do something he does not want. It would be a better solution if the gorge would be more fun.
The overhealing was mentioned before. Why not adding this as an upgrade for the gorge? (An upgrade, so it doesn't touch vanilla early game.)
If the aliens are to fast and this overhealing doesn't really works, why not give the gorge a building that does that? ("Two skulks with one stone")
Something like Ubercharge could work too. Collect healing-points and if you collected enough, you can give one alien unlimited energy for 10sec.
Many more possible solutions that make the gorge more fun in the game without forcing anyone to do anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely didn't post the medic video because I want those mechanics slapped into NS2, but it's still a fun thing to think about.
If you play gorge in older NS2 builds (or in NS1), it still accomplishes all the design goals of the medic without overheals or ubers. You feel a sense of camaraderie with your teammates - you're very obviously important to their success, but you couldn't do it without them no matter what.
The neat thing about NS is that the gorge also accomplishes the design goals of the Engineer in the TF games. In NS1 (and earlier in NS2), it was a really 'tight' design, doing a lot with a little, and with very little potential for overpowered nonsense results.
"Forcing" people to play the gorge in order to secure territory would still create all the same sources of fun as the medic's gameplay in TF2. In fact, in that game, you're "forced" to heal teammates and deliver excellent ubers, and also to survive at all costs (while making tons of other really important and difficult decisions along the way). "Battle medics" are objectively bad, but nobody in the competitive community complains about that because playing the medic 'properly' is great.
Game design isn't necessarily about letting people have their cake and eat it too. In order to craft a team game that's cohesive and understandable, you can't encourage the players to do whatever they want with every player class, and you certainly can't make it rewarding to play that way (remember when the fade was so overpowered it put everything else in the game to shame?)
<!--quoteo(post=1949378:date=Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the topic of overhealing, I like the idea but the problem is gorge healspray is AoE while the medic in TF2 is targeted. AoE overhealing would be too powerful.
Another advantage of the targeted healing of the medic is he does not have to stare at the arse of a Heavy when healing. A gorge must do this, which means he cannot watch the battlefield nearly as well, nor what is behind him. The medic in TF2 can and will alert the heavy of enemies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree that AOE healing is really different from targeted healing in TF2. Good medics who can time rampup can heal so efficiently that it may as well have been an AOE effect (like the amputator's taunt in TF2). There's also always a downside of grouping players together for AOE heals - if they are surprised, they have to attack the incoming enemies from the same angle (which makes shooting them/blowing them up/setting them on fire really easy).
Your second point is genius, though. It would probably be really good for the game if the gorge's AOE heal extended around itself symmetrically, so that you get the gameplay aspect of "watching your teammates' backs while healing." If we're going to steal mechanics from TF2, this is the one to strive for. The other one is mentioned above:<a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=1656" target="_blank"> healing ramp-up</a>. It's a mechanic that rewards the healers playing a 'triage' role, surviving outside of immediate danger (while being close enough to save teammates who are in/near combat). It would also promote the role of the gorge in NS2!
Neither of those fix the RTS (map control/rate of expansion) aspect, though, and I think that's the more important part of ADHD's idea.