3 hydra max - 10 res each - hydras are stronger and more lethal yet take much longer to mature 10 clogs max - 1 res each - clogs are much tougher yet weak to flamethrowers 5 mini cysts max - 2 res each - are able to be upgraded into normal cysts by the comm for 2 res which wont disappear even if the gorge changes class
<!--quoteo(post=1949494:date=Jul 6 2012, 05:38 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 6 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just like getting slight of hand, the damage upgrade in COD and camping is very rewarding.... to you. The team however? I am saying to benefit the game as a whole... and the team as a whole... the gorge needs to be reworked. Sadly at the expense of not allowing people to go off ignoring their whole team for their own selfish goals. Play fade if you want to be independent... not gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to sound condesending, but you are playing the gorge wrong, or at least far different than how I do.
My typical game as gorge: - Gamestart, I evolve immediately. - Run over to first harvester, heal it up to get res flow going. - Run over to next hive room which skulks have just cleared, setup hydras. - Setup cogs on alternate entrance and by hydras to deny access to marines. - Commander catches up to me a few seconds later with cysts - I build the harvester in the hive room and hold it with the help of 1 skulk. Keep him healed and alive. - Build the hive once dropped. - Start moving forward to assist players attacking the marines with my healing - Finally get bilebomb and start annoying marines with it, at all times staying with skulks or onos for support
How is that independent? At all times I am assisting, or being assisted by others. I am at all times assisting the teams victory.
<!--quoteo(post=1949520:date=Jul 6 2012, 07:37 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 6 2012, 07:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949520"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't want to sound condesending, but you are playing the gorge wrong, or at least far different than how I do.
My typical game as gorge: - Gamestart, I evolve immediately. - Run over to first harvester, heal it up to get res flow going. - Run over to next hive room which skulks have just cleared, setup hydras. - Setup cogs on alternate entrance and by hydras to deny access to marines. - Commander catches up to me a few seconds later with cysts - I build the harvester in the hive room and hold it with the help of 1 skulk. Keep him healed and alive. - Build the hive once dropped. - Start moving forward to assist players attacking the marines with my healing - Finally get bilebomb and start annoying marines with it, at all times staying with skulks or onos for support
How is that independent? At all times I am assisting, or being assisted by others. I am at all times assisting the teams victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're barely interacting with the enemy team as a player on the ground you're comfortable playing the game that way, and it gives you psychological cues that make it seem like you're being effective
<i>all of that</i> is the the problem we are trying to resolve
<!--quoteo(post=1949525:date=Jul 6 2012, 06:41 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 6 2012, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949525"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're barely interacting with the enemy team as a player on the ground you're comfortable playing the game that way, and it gives you psychological cues that make it seem like you're being effective
<i>all of that</i> is the the problem we are trying to resolve<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. My interactions is with the allies rather than enemies. Ultimately my sense of satisfaction comes from being needed by the team, and by having marines avoid rooms I lock down.
Not sure why this is a problem for a support class, though getting more kills would be nice.
<!--quoteo(post=1949528:date=Jul 6 2012, 07:43 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 6 2012, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949528"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->True. My interactions is with the allies rather than enemies. Ultimately my sense of satisfaction comes from being needed by the team, and by having marines avoid rooms I lock down.
Not sure why this is a problem for a support class, though getting more kills would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not being put in positions where the enemy team threatens you, so the whole point of being a player on the ground (as opposed to a commander in the sky) is lost. It's not necessarily about getting kills and being a badass, but if you're never leaving your comfort zone and succeeding, the game isn't right yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1949530:date=Jul 6 2012, 06:48 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 6 2012, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949530"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're not being put in positions where the enemy team threatens you, so the whole point of being a player on the ground (as opposed to a commander in the sky) is lost. It's not necessarily about getting kills and being a badass, but if you're never leaving your comfort zone and succeeding, the game isn't right yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its hard to leave the comfort zone as a gorge since 9 times out of 10 a marine with L1 LMG can kill you easily. Its comical when a gorge wins though, really gives me a laugh.
So is the objective to give the gorge more combat prowess, or just add more roles that must be completed on the front line? Until bilebomb and onos appear, the gorge is fairly well nailed down to a defensive role.
Wow.. where have you guys been? These changes have already been made - something like 5 patches ago the build time of all Kharaan structures was drastically increased -especially Harvesters- and Gorge's were switched to make it so healspray would assist in building (as opposed to the "use" key which it used to be). And now you're wanting it to be increased again just so you have one less Skulk to fight at the beginning? (what?)
<!--quoteo(post=1949290:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding artificial responsibility does not seem fun. "you used to be able to build res towers, but now you need a gorge to get anything done!" is just a bad idea. The comm is STILL making all the decisions, all that's happening is a designated player has to run around the map hitting the Use key, compared to the nearest marine just walking over to help out for a second. Having to spend res for the "privilege" of evolving into the required base monkey? No thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ^This, completely this. For you nay sayers.. read that again and let me point out the highlights: -Lack of decision making. -Running around and "building" structures which someone else placed. -Spending personal resources to do this job. -Not Fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1949293:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:57 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 5 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me your logic in why you think this is good gameplay and not forcing both teams to build up early game is bad? Is it because <b>you</b> personally find the gorge boring? Do you find tedious gameplay tasks to be boring? Well you might and that is fine, but some things would help the overall gameplay at the expense of your own exclusive enjoyment. Many others will rejoice if this change was made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The gameplay not working now doesn't mean that by increasing the tedium of a certain class for the Kharaan team will make the game better. They are in fact completely unrelated subjects with a HUGE jump in logic connecting them.
<!--quoteo(post=1949295:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like playing Medic in TF2 (again, something people don't understand and think is tedious until they <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2SbHLzKfIU" target="_blank">play it in a real context</a>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You really cannot compare the Gorge to the Medic (or the engineer ftm). Here's why: -Medic is the <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Classes" target="_blank">2nd fastest unit in the game</a> vs. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Gorge" target="_blank">the Gorge is the slowest.</a> -The Medic has the ability to make units Invulnerable (as well as himself) for a limited time vs. the Gorge is so weak that they must hide or run from all engagements and pray that other units are around to assist and pray that the marines don't decide to kill the Gorge out of spite (or intelligence). -The Medic has optional weapons which allow him to be a leeching warrior vs. a healer - at the player's discretion vs. the Gorge who has one slow spit weapon, a healgun with limited range, buildings which do minimal damage/defense, and an often forgotten anti-structure weapon which requires him to expose himself to Marine fire. -The Medic can actually OVERHEAL players, benefiting them (HEY, like SUPPORTING them) vs. the Gorge's "touch up" healspray which merely tops the creature/structure off, and at a fairly slow rate. For comparison: Medi Gun provides <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Medi_Gun" target="_blank">24 hp/s in combat, 72 hp/s out of combat</a>, While the Gorge Heal Spray provides: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Heal_Spray" target="_blank">Heal Amount (player): 8 + 3% of max health Heal Amount (structure): 8 x 5 = 40 Heal Amount (self): 8 x 0.5 = 4</a> Also note that Kharaa lifeforms and structures often have more more than 125 HP (which is the standard for TF2).
<!--quoteo(post=1949358:date=Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In much earlier builds, when cysts and builder drifters competed for hive energy and Gorges had pres minicysts, a Gorge or two at the start was a must for early expansion - without, you'd spend a lot of time not having enough harvesters while watching the hive energy tick over, and the consequences of that slow early res income were felt throughout the whole game. While it was certainly frustrating feeling impotent as the alien commander on a team with no early Gorges, having those Gorges on the field - vulnerable units out front playing a vital role in expansion, being high priority targets and needing their teammates' support - actually worked out pretty well. If there's a way to recreate that dynamic that doesn't leave the commander totally useless on an uncooperative team, I'll be all for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 - I want to see this as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1949378:date=Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another advantage of the targeted healing of the medic is he does not have to stare at the arse of a Heavy when healing. A gorge must do this, which means he cannot watch the battlefield nearly as well, nor what is behind him. The medic in TF2 can and will alert the heavy of enemies.
Gorges problems currently is how poorly he scales to late game for holding defensive positions. Hydras don't scale well past 3 minutes into the game, with marines just jumping past them or walking through them to the gorge. Only way to hold a position is to build enough cogs to make this impassable. Ultimately the hydras are there now just to stop a marine from knifing the cogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeap, all that's just gold.
<!--quoteo(post=1949450:date=Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge is a gimmick class now. All I see them useful for is bile bombing marines bases and healing other players. Even though those two things are very useful, bile bomb is a late game tech, and healing players isn't so important due to regen and crags. With crag spam, regen, and how fast harvesters grow already, gorges are very obsolete in the overall picture of <i><b>WINNING</b></i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And so... your thought again is to fix this by making the Gorge MORE boring to play, MORE mandatory so that MORE people have to suffer through this tedium and the Marines have more of a chance? Yes? That's what you're saying right?
*blinks*
But the ramp-up idea really does sound good, great suggestion IE. Personally I think a lot more ideas could be "acquired" from TF2, but this would be a "tedium killing" start : ).
Strange how much of a reaction this post is getting, I decided to start my quoting monstrosity of a wall of text before I saw that other people had already done so.
Maybe have drifters build Alien-side RT's again..?
Also for gorge healspray "having to stare into your friend arse" problem.. maybe have healspray have a slightly larger AOE (at least in front of the gorge.. like an elongated trapezoid-shaped hitbox.. larger directly in front of the gorge then thinner and thinner out but has more range and no loss of healing power). Not sure what's being done about its actual heal capabilities though.. I had read in another thread that the healing is quite weak but when I play(ed.. haven't played since b208 I think :\) it seemed fine.
I think IE is right in pointing out the downsides of TimMc's gorge experience - it epitomises the "noob class" label. There really does need to be more scope for interaction between the gorge and the opponent or at least between the gorge and aliens actively engaging with the opponent. Currently, the gorge is very much geared to avoiding marines at all costs (clogs, hydras, very slow movement) and I think we should be aiming for a gorge that should receive more reward from risking his life closer to combat.
If UWE made the gorge mandatory, then they'd have to remove nano construct, since the aliens would have fewer skulks as a result and the marines would be able to gain mapcontrol more easily cause they can build RTs in 2 seconds. It would be the opposit of what it was in the older builds where the aliens could get mapcontrol incredibly easily. Atleast right now mapcontrol is more based on player skill, since both teams kinda don't need teamwork on the building aspect at all and can just focus on killing each other.
I personally don't particularly like where it's going at the moment where the game is less and less focussed on the building element. It has sorta become merely a sidenote. Like in earlier builds if marines wanted to set up a forward base it required real teamwork otherwise it would take too long. Now I can just send two marines somewhere and have them build an armory, a phasegate and a couple of sentries or something in no time what so ever.
I would also like it if the gorge was more important than it is atm, but my problem with it is that it is just so incredibly... lacking. In my opinion it is a rather pathetic class right now and it's just no fun. Maybe the new ability it's going to get will change that, I don't know. I just don't think the gorge as it is now should be mandatory. It needs to be improved somehow before that. This is my experience with the gorge:
First I can help build the first RT, then I move towards a room where I'd want to set up my hydras and clogs. If I succeed with that then I can either sit in that room and heal my hydras and place new clogs if marines try and take it over or I can leave the room, making the room vulnerable to be easily taken over by a group of marines, and try to help my teammates by healing them from a safe place, like I can sit in the entrance to vent from sub when they are attacking into sub. I can't engage marines cause the gorge is so weak so I can only sit in my "hydra" room and be bored beyond belief or I can heal from a safe place and be bored beyond belief. Then if I for some reason is still a gorge in the late game then I can bilebomb marine structures and finally be useful.
I was thinking of what could be done to it and I thought of a couple of different things:
- How about giving him various single-target assist spells? Like a powerful temporary regen, or give him the drifters frenzy ability or whatever it's called or the lerks umbra? Make him THE spellcaster of the aliens. That way he'd be a much more active class and not so boring. - What if they gave him more armor so it wasn't so risky helping your allies? He is basically the only alien who doesn't even stand a chance one-on-one with a marine at any point in the game and that would be alright if he atleast could have a fairly good chance at escaping. - How about if it actually requires a gorge to build a hive? Or maybe if it only requires a gorge off of creep and even on creep it takes a long time for a hive to build without a gorge even more so than now? - I have heard others suggest this before, but what if the hydras cost pres but were much more powerful than now? That way servers wouldn't suffer under the strain of potentially billions of hydras and the gorge would have a pres sink again. Also what if they could spend pres on their hydras to frenzy them, so they get double firerate or a temporary boost to health and armor? Also since they would be much more powerful they should require creep again I think.
That's it for ideas right now, but all in all UWE should try to make the gorge a fun class to play.
<!--quoteo(post=1949624:date=Jul 7 2012, 07:50 AM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 7 2012, 07:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949624"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think IE is right in pointing out the downsides of TimMc's gorge experience - it epitomises the "noob class" label. There really does need to be more scope for interaction between the gorge and the opponent or at least between the gorge and aliens actively engaging with the opponent. Currently, the gorge is very much geared to avoiding marines at all costs (clogs, hydras, very slow movement) and I think we should be aiming for a gorge that should receive more reward from risking his life closer to combat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I cannot see how they can do this without completely redoing the class. Everything about the gorge screams "STAY AWAY FROM MARINES" "OH GOD THEY ARE COMING MOAR COGS" "GET BEHIND THAT ONOS".
Give the gorge primal scream instead of giving it to the Onos, so that the gorge has much more support power and a reason to move closer to the front lines.
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)
<!--quoteo(post=1949730:date=Jul 7 2012, 09:45 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 7 2012, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949730"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I cannot see how they can do this without completely redoing the class. Everything about the gorge screams "STAY AWAY FROM MARINES" "OH GOD THEY ARE COMING MOAR COGS" "GET BEHIND THAT ONOS".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it would require quite a bit of work but I think it's important. I used to gorge at the very highest level in competitive NS1 and I always felt useful, both strategically and tactically. Strategically I was absolutely pivotal in securing a strong economy, upgrades or a second hive - all things that the khamm has removed. The khamm is here to stay so I won't labour that point but UWE have their work cut out for them in filling that void. I wonder sometimes whether the gorge would exist at all had NS1 not been the blueprint because it really fills like it no longer has a place.
Tactically, the fact that gorge had an actual movement system (bunnyhop) meant I could do many combat-orientated duties without being a sitting duck. Spit damage was incredibly useful, tanking was viable, healing could be done in advanced positions and even bilebomb-harassing was an effective tactic. Basically, I really hope the gorge is given enough survivability to be able to perform the more interesting tasks at the margins of survival-expectancy. The khamm has stripped away much of the strategic functions of the gorge but it doesn't need to infringe on the combat side of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1949739:date=Jul 7 2012, 04:44 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 7 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give the gorge primal scream instead of giving it to the Onos, so that the gorge has much more support power and a reason to move closer to the front lines.
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given how adorable the gorge sounds, maybe a primal burp? :)
I like the idea though. Primal scream on the onos on one hand seems sensible, since it leads the charge, but on the otherhand the onos is already such a powerful class without it.
<!--quoteo(post=1949739:date=Jul 7 2012, 04:44 PM:name=Benson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Benson @ Jul 7 2012, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Give the gorge primal scream instead of giving it to the Onos, so that the gorge has much more support power and a reason to move closer to the front lines.
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some kind of area buff is exactly what the gorge could use.
Actually that's true, some kind of useful buff would help solidify the gorges role as a support class, and give it a good reason to be in the frontlines healing and buffing(/debuffing if bilebomb continues to work so well on marine armor). I'm sure something could be figured out to make it fit with the class stylistically, but gameplay wise it seems like a decent idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1949544:date=Jul 6 2012, 08:06 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 6 2012, 08:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949544"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And so... your thought again is to fix this by making the Gorge MORE boring to play, MORE mandatory so that MORE people have to suffer through this tedium and the Marines have more of a chance? Yes? That's what you're saying right?
*blinks*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is 1000% your opinion, and by the look of it, a very newbie opinion. One of my favorite things to do on marines is be the engineer / base defender. I will jetpack to any structure under attack, eliminate the threat and weld all damaged structures. I usually make that my goal for 100% of the game. I also carefully place mines in chokepoints and strategic areas and structures, sort of like how a gorge would place his hydras defensively. I am basically the team gorge for marines when I play. I do all the tedious things nobody else wants to do, like backtrack 200 years to save an RT out in landing pad, and then spend another 15 seconds welding it. I get TONS of enjoyment out of doing this because I know I am causing the enemy team extreme grief. They are never able to even put a dent in our infrastructure. This style of play should obviously be given to the gorge on aliens, and make him much less of a frontline class. He should be building, healing, and placing strategic traps for enemies. He also needs to be on top of all damage being done to alien structures at all times. Well that would be a <b><i>SMART</i></b>, non noob gorge.
You see in servers that I always play in I see gorges rushing to the other side of the map to set up a clog fort to block marines, and then they put hydras off of creep. Wasting all their time they should be defending the alien commanders expansion. The gorge class is totally noob now and if people can't see the importance of the REAL role of the gorge then you are simply bad at this game.
Those gorges hydras can be walked by... since they are guarding NOTHING important at all, as well as the pointless clog spam. UWE is trying to make the alien commander the gorges ###### (One who has to listen to what they say). This is assbackwards gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1949825:date=Jul 7 2012, 10:51 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 7 2012, 10:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is 1000% your opinion, and by the look of it, a very newbie opinion. One of my favorite things to do on marines is be the engineer / base defender. I will jetpack to any structure under attack, eliminate the threat and weld all damaged structures. I usually make that my goal for 100% of the game. I also carefully place mines in chokepoints and strategic areas and structures, sort of like how a gorge would place his hydras defensively. I am basically the team gorge for marines when I play. I do all the tedious things nobody else wants to do, like backtrack 200 years to save an RT out in landing pad, and then spend another 15 seconds welding it. I get TONS of enjoyment out of doing this because I know I am causing the enemy team extreme grief. They are never able to even put a dent in our infrastructure. This style of play should obviously be given to the gorge on aliens, and make him much less of a frontline class. He should be building, healing, and placing strategic traps for enemies. He also needs to be on top of all damage being done to alien structures at all times. Well that would be a <b><i>SMART</i></b>, non noob gorge.
You see in servers that I always play in I see gorges rushing to the other side of the map to set up a clog fort to block marines, and then they put hydras off of creep. Wasting all their time they should be defending the alien commanders expansion. The gorge class is totally noob now and if people can't see the importance of the REAL role of the gorge then you are simply bad at this game.
Those gorges hydras can be walked by... since they are guarding NOTHING important at all, as well as the pointless clog spam. UWE is trying to make the alien commander the gorges ###### (One who has to listen to what they say). This is assbackwards gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1949852:date=Jul 8 2012, 05:28 AM:name=piratedave)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (piratedave @ Jul 8 2012, 05:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949852"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->nice elitist attitude you have there<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, if that is the "elite" way to play... (I like to call it smart). Then why is the game being designed in a way that makes people NOT want to play in the "Smart" way? It encourages people to rambo off, and be independent of the team due to the way the game and the gorge have been designed, and overall it has destroyed the fine balance that the marines and aliens had between eachother.
Gorge play absolutely needs to be "mandatory" early game if we ever hope to see this game balanced from an RTS standpoint.
It's great when you tell someone how their understanding of the game (and game design overall) is totally flawed, and they call you an 'elitist' before scurrying away
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*Snip* Learn to be nicer.
<!--quoteo(post=1949825:date=Jul 8 2012, 01:51 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 8 2012, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949825"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is 1000% your opinion, and by the look of it, a very newbie opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, thanks for the cheap shot calling me a newbie, I notice that not only do I have more posts than you, but I joined 9 years before you, and I also have a constellation icon. If you've been here as long as you're suggesting, then you should know what that is. Are you just trolling here or what?
Anywho, I'm not disagreeing with what you have identified as the problem (actually, it doesn't sound like anyone is), I'm disagreeing with your solution.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Problem you identified: <ul><li>Too many Skulks in early game because no one wants to play Gorge.</li></ul> Solution you suggested: <ul><li>Slow growth of Harvesters without a Gorge's assistance but provide a health boost once completed. (please note that as i said before, this was already done a few builds ago - not just to Harvesters, but to all structures)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> <!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->Problems other people have identified: -Not enough incentive to play Gorge because: <ul><li>Gorge is too weak compared to other Kharaan classes in combat - typical Gorges run from all combat</li><li>Gorge doesn't have enough support abilities</li><li>Gorge structures are too weak</li><li>Gorge Clogs get in the way (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118513" target="_blank">Check out these Clog suggestions - the more support, the more likely the change</a>)</li><li>Gorge can't spread out their defenses like they used to be able to</li><li>Gorges need more to do in the early game, since face hugging structures while spamming healspray isn't all that fun.</li><li>Gorges have no PRes sink anymore, so their res is going to waste</li><li>Being able to heal is great, but staring at an Onos' butt is not so much</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> It should be obvious by this point that most people are saying that there are many other issues with the Gorge (that's only about half the issues people in this topic posted), and simply forcing players to play them is not the proper answer. What I was pointing out in my post which you quoted, was that even YOU hate playing as Gorge. Instead of playing as you're "supposed to" by building what the Khaam tells you to, you just run off and screw around. Not that I'm accusing you of anything, I'm saying: "Yes, the Gorge is a boring class that is fairly broken in more than one way" - and because of that, the one thing I definitely don't want is to be required to play as a Gorge. Every class should be a choice - not a requirement - and each class should be fun too... in my opinion anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1949450:date=Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you give players too much freedom, and too many creative options, there will be no sense of direction and no incentive to play as a team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe this is true, but in my opinion, the main problem is that we are on the opposite side of this extreme: there isn't enough freedom as a Gorge, not enough creative options (that matter), and because of this, there is no incentive to play as a Gorge -> hence, no team dynamic.
A lot of other people made some other very good points, but I just wanted to touch on your last post there .ADHd -> you're talking about how you play as a "Support Marine", and that you don't understand why people don't want to do this as a Gorge. But for all the points you are making which you get "Enjoyment" out, you are using a jetpack, and mines, and you're repairing with a welder for 15 seconds.
Please note that what you're finding fun is Faster, More combat oriented, healing quicker, and more suited for regular combat (should the need arise) than any Gorge is: -Jetpack is obviously faster (even a non-Jetpack Marine is faster than a Gorge with sprinting) -A mine has more chance of killing a Kharaa than any Clog/Hydra combo - even with other structures -healing a Harvester (for example) from low health would take over 30 seconds vs. your 15 seconds Check this awesome math for the welder out: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Welder" target="_blank">Structure Repair Rate, Min: 60 Health/Armor per second Structure Repair Rate, Max: 350 Health/Armor per second</a> vs the Gorge as before: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Heal_Spray" target="_blank">Heal Amount (structure): 8 x 5 = 40</a> -and with all this awesomeness that you have over the Gorge, you still function like a regular marine with just as much firepower as anyone else L> you could even buy a bigger weapon if you like.
Wow.. I should have looked at these numbers for myself.. no wonder the Gorge is so boring. The job they are supposed to specialize in, is done better by the opposing team's JOAT.
<!--quoteo(post=1949297:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:07 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 5 2012, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't let the door hit you on the way out, bro. Great things (games or otherwise) aren't made by a bunch of people who are afraid to figure things out and actually produce quality results. Acting like you've been thrown in a gas chamber because someone disagreed with you and had the wherewithal to explain why ............. is a bad approach to life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> @internetexplorer - do you really need to attack people like this? Ever heard that old saying "if you don't have anything nice to say..."? Verbally assaulting people out of the forums isn't a good way to make a point.
Ok lets play around with the idea of redesigning the gorge.
NS1 Gorge has had its roles sequestered by the alien comm. Since then I keep hearing that it should be a combat engineer.
Lets look at the engineer and medic from TF2.
Medic: - Targeted healing. Allows for player to look away from their healing target, gives tactical depth. - Strong defensive abilities from ubercharge. Usage is very tactical. - Combat ability is all short range. Projectile weapon and knife. - Depth of skill is in usage of short range weapons, and when to use ubercharge. Assisting the heavy in picking targets and alert of spies.
Engineer: - Maintains only his own structures. No need to repair a command chair. - Buildings are all weak, but immensely powerful. Several levels of maturation for turret. - Repairing is almost instant on his own structures. Enemies can only advance with alphastrikes. - Highly vulnerable to a single class - the spy. - Combat ability is all short range. Slow rof shotgun and wrench. - Depth of class is usage of the short range weapons, placement of structures and weeding out spies.
Currently the gorge has to maintain alot of structures - causing alot of bordom. If it was limited to his own, it would allow balancing of structure build speed to be based on the assumption that a gorge would never help. It would also force him to be more aggressive.
Another change would be to have some sort of ubercharge. Perhaps gradually when healing it would charge an enzyme ability. Or primal scream, same thing come to think of it.
I'm not sure about hydras. To follow TF2s lead, they should be strong and weak - countered by grenades. However grenade launchers are mid-game tech, while hydras are at any time. TF2 has no tech levels.
One thing to note is that both the medic and engineer are short range combat ability. The gorge has spit, which is... long range? Its not something I rely upon, more to keep marines from advancing in a straight line. Perhaps healspray should be made into a stronger melee option, currently its a comedy kill and marines always go to near melee range against a gorge.
Another thing that may be interesting would be something like 'celerity chains'. Gorges could place up to 5 structures, which would give a speed boost to aliens who pass by for a few seconds. String these along the way between hives, or toward bases to assist in movement - similar to the teleporter in TF2?
I do miss webs, though I feel it would tie too much into the defensive feel of the gorge. If we are going for aggressive expansion, we need a targeted ability that will counter jetpacks. Perhaps webs should be a short lived ability - one that you throw up when you see a marine passing through rather than prepare a net in wait.
<!--quoteo(post=1949972:date=Jul 8 2012, 07:01 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 8 2012, 07:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I do miss webs, though I feel it would tie too much into the defensive feel of the gorge. If we are going for aggressive expansion, we need a targeted ability that will counter jetpacks. Perhaps webs should be a short lived ability - one that you throw up when you see a marine passing through rather than prepare a net in wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Webs were very effective for setting up spit kills and grounding jetpackers. While not strictly offensive, they are definitely aggressive.
Rather than take an uber directly from TF2, something akin to Primal Scream would fit that role nicely. While it doesn't make anything harder to kill, it DOES enable that alpha strike push like charging with an ubered pyro/demo/soldier can.
Gorge spit kills have always kind of been comedical, iirc. The only time you'd see it used intentionally to kill would be in a gorgie orgie. I also feel the engie has a specific reason for being close-range oriented, and that is to combat his nemisis, the spy. Medic is definitely midrange, and even the engie has an excellent pistol. On the other hand, gorges should (theoretically) have skulks and such around for melee protection, while providing covering fire and heals.
<!--quoteo(post=1949972:date=Jul 8 2012, 08:01 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 8 2012, 08:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949972"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Currently the gorge has to maintain alot of structures - causing alot of bordom. If it was limited to his own, it would allow balancing of structure build speed to be based on the assumption that a gorge would never help. It would also force him to be more aggressive.
Another change would be to have some sort of ubercharge. Perhaps gradually when healing it would charge an enzyme ability. Or primal scream, same thing come to think of it.
I'm not sure about hydras. To follow TF2s lead, they should be strong and weak - countered by grenades. However grenade launchers are mid-game tech, while hydras are at any time. TF2 has no tech levels.
One thing to note is that both the medic and engineer are short range combat ability. The gorge has spit, which is... long range? Its not something I rely upon, more to keep marines from advancing in a straight line. Perhaps healspray should be made into a stronger melee option, currently its a comedy kill and marines always go to near melee range against a gorge.
Another thing that may be interesting would be something like 'celerity chains'. Gorges could place up to 5 structures, which would give a speed boost to aliens who pass by for a few seconds. String these along the way between hives, or toward bases to assist in movement - similar to the teleporter in TF2?
I do miss webs, though I feel it would tie too much into the defensive feel of the gorge. If we are going for aggressive expansion, we need a targeted ability that will counter jetpacks. Perhaps webs should be a short lived ability - one that you throw up when you see a marine passing through rather than prepare a net in wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think the goal should be to mimic TF2 on either the Medic or the Engi, they do have some damn good ideas - but they typically wouldn't fit into NS2 very well.
I'm not sure what you mean about "maintaining structures" - you're saying as far as healing the Khaam's structures, or building them? I don't think the problem is in building them or healing them, its that the Gorge has no choice when it comes to what they are building. Healing is a matter of requirement, can't get away from that one - though a quicker heal over time would definitely be better. I would like to see the Gorge providing bonuses to various structures (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">some ideas here</a>) based on their own decisions.
I don't think an ubercharge fits with NS2, but I do think Deadzone has some good points about Primal Scream. Really any sort of Support ability would be nice for the Gorge.
Hydras are currently weak with health and weak with damage. I find them akin to level one Engi turrets, a nuisance but that's it (even weaker really). Even three of them together isn't enough to do much. I would like the Gorge to take a note from TF2 here where they allow the Engi to upgrade their turret, and to move it, and to have the mini-sentries which are controllable (granted that was years later, but still its a cool option). Fluttermingo had a pretty cool idea on upgrading Hydras with PRes that didn't get much notice: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119112" target="_blank">over here</a>.
I agree about Spit being strangely not useful, though the Healspray has been tried stronger before and it was too powerful. *Shrug* I think there needs to be some sort of status effect weapon, but Spit recently had its slow effect removed. Maybe some sort of status effect while active (Gorge holds down button - Marines are affected, Gorge lets go - Marines no longer affected) -> would take the Gorge out of the fighting and remove its heal, but would also let the Gorge feel more useful. However I don't want to see another Vortex.. so.. again *shrug*.
The celerity chains sound like an interesting idea, but I don't know if they'd be useful - Celerity already does the job you're describing.
Lack of Webs is a major current problem, though I don't really see any ability having all that much of an effect when its the last of 4 skills to be gained. I think this is the major issue: lack of early abilities - really that's for any lifeform. Whether its the purchasing of individual skills or the building of hives to provide skills, I think this is one of the major issues with NS2 right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1950065:date=Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure what you mean about "maintaining structures" - you're saying as far as healing the Khaam's structures, or building them? I don't think the problem is in building them or healing them, its that the Gorge has no choice when it comes to what they are building. Healing is a matter of requirement, can't get away from that one - though a quicker heal over time would definitely be better. I would like to see the Gorge providing bonuses to various structures (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">some ideas here</a>) based on their own decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've had some more thought and think I have a solution. Gorges no longer repair or build commanders structures. Instead give drifters a targeted 'regenerate' ability, where the drifter latches on for a rapid heal. Drifters are slow and weak, so will be shot off easily. My only issue with this idea is that it feels like a MAC clone.
<!--quoteo(post=1950065:date=Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think an ubercharge fits with NS2, but I do think Deadzone has some good points about Primal Scream. Really any sort of Support ability would be nice for the Gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah my idea was that healing allies would charge up a primal scream ability, rather than simply have primal scream that can be used any time.
<!--quoteo(post=1950071:date=Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've had some more thought and think I have a solution. Gorges no longer repair or build commanders structures. Instead give drifters a targeted 'regenerate' ability, where the drifter latches on for a rapid heal. Drifters are slow and weak, so will be shot off easily. My only issue with this idea is that it feels like a MAC clone.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So what happens to Healspray, does it just not heal structures? I think I would find that crazy annoying, being a healer amidst destruction, but to be unable to do anything about it. Also I agree, sounds very MAC-like.
<!--quoteo(post=1950071:date=Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah my idea was that healing allies would charge up a primal scream ability, rather than simply have primal scream that can be used any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is an interesting idea, does it just activate after its filled? How would it be controlled/displayed on HUD/viewed by other players? Are you talking simply removing PS from Onos and slapping it on the Gorge, or changing the ability boost or range or anything else? Would the Gorge have to hold a button down for this? Gotta remember that Gorge heal doesn't work like Medic -> so if his AOE heals would be cut off during Primal Scream, that could mean the death of an Onos (or several).
<!--quoteo(post=1950266:date=Jul 9 2012, 10:56 PM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 9 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950266"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is an interesting idea, does it just activate after its filled? How would it be controlled/displayed on HUD/viewed by other players? Are you talking simply removing PS from Onos and slapping it on the Gorge, or changing the ability boost or range or anything else? Would the Gorge have to hold a button down for this? Gotta remember that Gorge heal doesn't work like Medic -> so if his AOE heals would be cut off during Primal Scream, that could mean the death of an Onos (or several).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it has to be manually controlled when it is deployed, otherwise alot of its tactical usage is lost. Alot of skill in a TF2 Medic is knowing when to use ubercharge, and when to hold out for a bigger battle.
PS for gorge is just an idea, my main focus is the desire for a supporting, charged ability. If gorge got it, onos should not since we don't want overlap. The gorge should not lose his healing while this is on, unless the ability is incredibly powerful.
Comments
3 hydra max - 10 res each - hydras are stronger and more lethal yet take much longer to mature
10 clogs max - 1 res each - clogs are much tougher yet weak to flamethrowers
5 mini cysts max - 2 res each - are able to be upgraded into normal cysts by the comm for 2 res which wont disappear even if the gorge changes class
is that a bit better ? :X
I don't want to sound condesending, but you are playing the gorge wrong, or at least far different than how I do.
My typical game as gorge:
- Gamestart, I evolve immediately.
- Run over to first harvester, heal it up to get res flow going.
- Run over to next hive room which skulks have just cleared, setup hydras.
- Setup cogs on alternate entrance and by hydras to deny access to marines.
- Commander catches up to me a few seconds later with cysts
- I build the harvester in the hive room and hold it with the help of 1 skulk. Keep him healed and alive.
- Build the hive once dropped.
- Start moving forward to assist players attacking the marines with my healing
- Finally get bilebomb and start annoying marines with it, at all times staying with skulks or onos for support
How is that independent? At all times I am assisting, or being assisted by others. I am at all times assisting the teams victory.
My typical game as gorge:
- Gamestart, I evolve immediately.
- Run over to first harvester, heal it up to get res flow going.
- Run over to next hive room which skulks have just cleared, setup hydras.
- Setup cogs on alternate entrance and by hydras to deny access to marines.
- Commander catches up to me a few seconds later with cysts
- I build the harvester in the hive room and hold it with the help of 1 skulk. Keep him healed and alive.
- Build the hive once dropped.
- Start moving forward to assist players attacking the marines with my healing
- Finally get bilebomb and start annoying marines with it, at all times staying with skulks or onos for support
How is that independent? At all times I am assisting, or being assisted by others. I am at all times assisting the teams victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're barely interacting with the enemy team as a player on the ground
you're comfortable playing the game that way, and it gives you psychological cues that make it seem like you're being effective
<i>all of that</i> is the the problem we are trying to resolve
you're comfortable playing the game that way, and it gives you psychological cues that make it seem like you're being effective
<i>all of that</i> is the the problem we are trying to resolve<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True. My interactions is with the allies rather than enemies. Ultimately my sense of satisfaction comes from being needed by the team, and by having marines avoid rooms I lock down.
Not sure why this is a problem for a support class, though getting more kills would be nice.
Not sure why this is a problem for a support class, though getting more kills would be nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not being put in positions where the enemy team threatens you, so the whole point of being a player on the ground (as opposed to a commander in the sky) is lost.
It's not necessarily about getting kills and being a badass, but if you're never leaving your comfort zone and succeeding, the game isn't right yet.
I'll bring it up for sure!
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inject it into the game using your playtester powers then :)
It's not necessarily about getting kills and being a badass, but if you're never leaving your comfort zone and succeeding, the game isn't right yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its hard to leave the comfort zone as a gorge since 9 times out of 10 a marine with L1 LMG can kill you easily. Its comical when a gorge wins though, really gives me a laugh.
So is the objective to give the gorge more combat prowess, or just add more roles that must be completed on the front line? Until bilebomb and onos appear, the gorge is fairly well nailed down to a defensive role.
<!--quoteo(post=1949290:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM:name=Deadzone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Deadzone @ Jul 5 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Adding artificial responsibility does not seem fun. "you used to be able to build res towers, but now you need a gorge to get anything done!" is just a bad idea. The comm is STILL making all the decisions, all that's happening is a designated player has to run around the map hitting the Use key, compared to the nearest marine just walking over to help out for a second. Having to spend res for the "privilege" of evolving into the required base monkey? No thanks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^This, completely this. For you nay sayers.. read that again and let me point out the highlights:
-Lack of decision making.
-Running around and "building" structures which someone else placed.
-Spending personal resources to do this job.
-Not Fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1949293:date=Jul 5 2012, 10:57 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 5 2012, 10:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949293"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Explain to me your logic in why you think this is good gameplay and not forcing both teams to build up early game is bad? Is it because <b>you</b> personally find the gorge boring? Do you find tedious gameplay tasks to be boring? Well you might and that is fine, but some things would help the overall gameplay at the expense of your own exclusive enjoyment. Many others will rejoice if this change was made.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The gameplay not working now doesn't mean that by increasing the tedium of a certain class for the Kharaan team will make the game better. They are in fact completely unrelated subjects with a HUGE jump in logic connecting them.
<!--quoteo(post=1949295:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 5 2012, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949295"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's like playing Medic in TF2 (again, something people don't understand and think is tedious until they <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2SbHLzKfIU" target="_blank">play it in a real context</a>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You really cannot compare the Gorge to the Medic (or the engineer ftm). Here's why:
-Medic is the <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Classes" target="_blank">2nd fastest unit in the game</a> vs. <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Gorge" target="_blank">the Gorge is the slowest.</a>
-The Medic has the ability to make units Invulnerable (as well as himself) for a limited time vs. the Gorge is so weak that they must hide or run from all engagements and pray that other units are around to assist and pray that the marines don't decide to kill the Gorge out of spite (or intelligence).
-The Medic has optional weapons which allow him to be a leeching warrior vs. a healer - at the player's discretion vs. the Gorge who has one slow spit weapon, a healgun with limited range, buildings which do minimal damage/defense, and an often forgotten anti-structure weapon which requires him to expose himself to Marine fire.
-The Medic can actually OVERHEAL players, benefiting them (HEY, like SUPPORTING them) vs. the Gorge's "touch up" healspray which merely tops the creature/structure off, and at a fairly slow rate.
For comparison:
Medi Gun provides <a href="http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Medi_Gun" target="_blank">24 hp/s in combat, 72 hp/s out of combat</a>,
While the Gorge Heal Spray provides:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Heal_Spray" target="_blank">Heal Amount (player): 8 + 3% of max health
Heal Amount (structure): 8 x 5 = 40
Heal Amount (self): 8 x 0.5 = 4</a>
Also note that Kharaa lifeforms and structures often have more more than 125 HP (which is the standard for TF2).
<!--quoteo(post=1949358:date=Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 6 2012, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949358"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In much earlier builds, when cysts and builder drifters competed for hive energy and Gorges had pres minicysts, a Gorge or two at the start was a must for early expansion - without, you'd spend a lot of time not having enough harvesters while watching the hive energy tick over, and the consequences of that slow early res income were felt throughout the whole game. While it was certainly frustrating feeling impotent as the alien commander on a team with no early Gorges, having those Gorges on the field - vulnerable units out front playing a vital role in expansion, being high priority targets and needing their teammates' support - actually worked out pretty well. If there's a way to recreate that dynamic that doesn't leave the commander totally useless on an uncooperative team, I'll be all for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 - I want to see this as well.
<!--quoteo(post=1949378:date=Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 6 2012, 08:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949378"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another advantage of the targeted healing of the medic is he does not have to stare at the arse of a Heavy when healing. A gorge must do this, which means he cannot watch the battlefield nearly as well, nor what is behind him. The medic in TF2 can and will alert the heavy of enemies.
Gorges problems currently is how poorly he scales to late game for holding defensive positions. Hydras don't scale well past 3 minutes into the game, with marines just jumping past them or walking through them to the gorge. Only way to hold a position is to build enough cogs to make this impassable. Ultimately the hydras are there now just to stop a marine from knifing the cogs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeap, all that's just gold.
<!--quoteo(post=1949450:date=Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The gorge is a gimmick class now. All I see them useful for is bile bombing marines bases and healing other players. Even though those two things are very useful, bile bomb is a late game tech, and healing players isn't so important due to regen and crags. With crag spam, regen, and how fast harvesters grow already, gorges are very obsolete in the overall picture of <i><b>WINNING</b></i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And so... your thought again is to fix this by making the Gorge MORE boring to play, MORE mandatory so that MORE people have to suffer through this tedium and the Marines have more of a chance? Yes? That's what you're saying right?
*blinks*
But the ramp-up idea really does sound good, great suggestion IE. Personally I think a lot more ideas could be "acquired" from TF2, but this would be a "tedium killing" start : ).
Strange how much of a reaction this post is getting, I decided to start my quoting monstrosity of a wall of text before I saw that other people had already done so.
Also for gorge healspray "having to stare into your friend arse" problem.. maybe have healspray have a slightly larger AOE (at least in front of the gorge.. like an elongated trapezoid-shaped hitbox.. larger directly in front of the gorge then thinner and thinner out but has more range and no loss of healing power). Not sure what's being done about its actual heal capabilities though.. I had read in another thread that the healing is quite weak but when I play(ed.. haven't played since b208 I think :\) it seemed fine.
I personally don't particularly like where it's going at the moment where the game is less and less focussed on the building element. It has sorta become merely a sidenote. Like in earlier builds if marines wanted to set up a forward base it required real teamwork otherwise it would take too long. Now I can just send two marines somewhere and have them build an armory, a phasegate and a couple of sentries or something in no time what so ever.
I would also like it if the gorge was more important than it is atm, but my problem with it is that it is just so incredibly... lacking. In my opinion it is a rather pathetic class right now and it's just no fun. Maybe the new ability it's going to get will change that, I don't know. I just don't think the gorge as it is now should be mandatory. It needs to be improved somehow before that. This is my experience with the gorge:
First I can help build the first RT, then I move towards a room where I'd want to set up my hydras and clogs. If I succeed with that then I can either sit in that room and heal my hydras and place new clogs if marines try and take it over or I can leave the room, making the room vulnerable to be easily taken over by a group of marines, and try to help my teammates by healing them from a safe place, like I can sit in the entrance to vent from sub when they are attacking into sub. I can't engage marines cause the gorge is so weak so I can only sit in my "hydra" room and be bored beyond belief or I can heal from a safe place and be bored beyond belief. Then if I for some reason is still a gorge in the late game then I can bilebomb marine structures and finally be useful.
I was thinking of what could be done to it and I thought of a couple of different things:
- How about giving him various single-target assist spells? Like a powerful temporary regen, or give him the drifters frenzy ability or whatever it's called or the lerks umbra? Make him THE spellcaster of the aliens. That way he'd be a much more active class and not so boring.
- What if they gave him more armor so it wasn't so risky helping your allies? He is basically the only alien who doesn't even stand a chance one-on-one with a marine at any point in the game and that would be alright if he atleast could have a fairly good chance at escaping.
- How about if it actually requires a gorge to build a hive? Or maybe if it only requires a gorge off of creep and even on creep it takes a long time for a hive to build without a gorge even more so than now?
- I have heard others suggest this before, but what if the hydras cost pres but were much more powerful than now? That way servers wouldn't suffer under the strain of potentially billions of hydras and the gorge would have a pres sink again. Also what if they could spend pres on their hydras to frenzy them, so they get double firerate or a temporary boost to health and armor? Also since they would be much more powerful they should require creep again I think.
That's it for ideas right now, but all in all UWE should try to make the gorge a fun class to play.
I cannot see how they can do this without completely redoing the class. Everything about the gorge screams "STAY AWAY FROM MARINES" "OH GOD THEY ARE COMING MOAR COGS" "GET BEHIND THAT ONOS".
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)
Yeah, it would require quite a bit of work but I think it's important. I used to gorge at the very highest level in competitive NS1 and I always felt useful, both strategically and tactically. Strategically I was absolutely pivotal in securing a strong economy, upgrades or a second hive - all things that the khamm has removed. The khamm is here to stay so I won't labour that point but UWE have their work cut out for them in filling that void. I wonder sometimes whether the gorge would exist at all had NS1 not been the blueprint because it really fills like it no longer has a place.
Tactically, the fact that gorge had an actual movement system (bunnyhop) meant I could do many combat-orientated duties without being a sitting duck. Spit damage was incredibly useful, tanking was viable, healing could be done in advanced positions and even bilebomb-harassing was an effective tactic. Basically, I really hope the gorge is given enough survivability to be able to perform the more interesting tasks at the margins of survival-expectancy. The khamm has stripped away much of the strategic functions of the gorge but it doesn't need to infringe on the combat side of things.
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Given how adorable the gorge sounds, maybe a primal burp? :)
I like the idea though. Primal scream on the onos on one hand seems sensible, since it leads the charge, but on the otherhand the onos is already such a powerful class without it.
Perhaps not primal scream exactly, but the idea is the same. give the gorge a buff it can place on allies, and then switch to healing. Gives the gorge more emphasis on being an actual lifeform rather than just a sack of meat filled with spikey plants and balls of goo.
(might have to be changed to Primal Belch though if gorge is gonna use it, i mean really, screaming gorges?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Some kind of area buff is exactly what the gorge could use.
*blinks*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is 1000% your opinion, and by the look of it, a very newbie opinion.
One of my favorite things to do on marines is be the engineer / base defender. I will jetpack to any structure under attack, eliminate the threat and weld all damaged structures. I usually make that my goal for 100% of the game. I also carefully place mines in chokepoints and strategic areas and structures, sort of like how a gorge would place his hydras defensively. I am basically the team gorge for marines when I play. I do all the tedious things nobody else wants to do, like backtrack 200 years to save an RT out in landing pad, and then spend another 15 seconds welding it. I get TONS of enjoyment out of doing this because I know I am causing the enemy team extreme grief. They are never able to even put a dent in our infrastructure. This style of play should obviously be given to the gorge on aliens, and make him much less of a frontline class. He should be building, healing, and placing strategic traps for enemies. He also needs to be on top of all damage being done to alien structures at all times. Well that would be a <b><i>SMART</i></b>, non noob gorge.
You see in servers that I always play in I see gorges rushing to the other side of the map to set up a clog fort to block marines, and then they put hydras off of creep. Wasting all their time they should be defending the alien commanders expansion. The gorge class is totally noob now and if people can't see the importance of the REAL role of the gorge then you are simply bad at this game.
Those gorges hydras can be walked by... since they are guarding NOTHING important at all, as well as the pointless clog spam. UWE is trying to make the alien commander the gorges ###### (One who has to listen to what they say). This is assbackwards gameplay.
One of my favorite things to do on marines is be the engineer / base defender. I will jetpack to any structure under attack, eliminate the threat and weld all damaged structures. I usually make that my goal for 100% of the game. I also carefully place mines in chokepoints and strategic areas and structures, sort of like how a gorge would place his hydras defensively. I am basically the team gorge for marines when I play. I do all the tedious things nobody else wants to do, like backtrack 200 years to save an RT out in landing pad, and then spend another 15 seconds welding it. I get TONS of enjoyment out of doing this because I know I am causing the enemy team extreme grief. They are never able to even put a dent in our infrastructure. This style of play should obviously be given to the gorge on aliens, and make him much less of a frontline class. He should be building, healing, and placing strategic traps for enemies. He also needs to be on top of all damage being done to alien structures at all times. Well that would be a <b><i>SMART</i></b>, non noob gorge.
You see in servers that I always play in I see gorges rushing to the other side of the map to set up a clog fort to block marines, and then they put hydras off of creep. Wasting all their time they should be defending the alien commanders expansion. The gorge class is totally noob now and if people can't see the importance of the REAL role of the gorge then you are simply bad at this game.
Those gorges hydras can be walked by... since they are guarding NOTHING important at all, as well as the pointless clog spam. UWE is trying to make the alien commander the gorges ###### (One who has to listen to what they say). This is assbackwards gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nice elitist attitude you have there
So, if that is the "elite" way to play... (I like to call it smart). Then why is the game being designed in a way that makes people NOT want to play in the "Smart" way? It encourages people to rambo off, and be independent of the team due to the way the game and the gorge have been designed, and overall it has destroyed the fine balance that the marines and aliens had between eachother.
Gorge play absolutely needs to be "mandatory" early game if we ever hope to see this game balanced from an RTS standpoint.
<b><i> It is clear as day.</i></b>
It's great when you tell someone how their understanding of the game (and game design overall) is totally flawed, and they call you an 'elitist' before scurrying away
<!--coloro:orange--><span style="color:orange"><!--/coloro-->*Snip* Learn to be nicer.
- Angelusz
<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
First off, thanks for the cheap shot calling me a newbie, I notice that not only do I have more posts than you, but I joined 9 years before you, and I also have a constellation icon. If you've been here as long as you're suggesting, then you should know what that is. Are you just trolling here or what?
Anywho, I'm not disagreeing with what you have identified as the problem (actually, it doesn't sound like anyone is), I'm disagreeing with your solution.
<!--coloro:#AFEEEE--><span style="color:#AFEEEE"><!--/coloro-->Problem you identified:
<ul><li>Too many Skulks in early game because no one wants to play Gorge.</li></ul>
Solution you suggested:
<ul><li>Slow growth of Harvesters without a Gorge's assistance but provide a health boost once completed. (please note that as i said before, this was already done a few builds ago - not just to Harvesters, but to all structures)</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
<!--coloro:#F5DEB3--><span style="color:#F5DEB3"><!--/coloro-->Problems other people have identified:
-Not enough incentive to play Gorge because:
<ul><li>Gorge is too weak compared to other Kharaan classes in combat - typical Gorges run from all combat</li><li>Gorge doesn't have enough support abilities</li><li>Gorge structures are too weak</li><li>Gorge Clogs get in the way (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118513" target="_blank">Check out these Clog suggestions - the more support, the more likely the change</a>)</li><li>Gorge can't spread out their defenses like they used to be able to</li><li>Gorges need more to do in the early game, since face hugging structures while spamming healspray isn't all that fun.</li><li>Gorges have no PRes sink anymore, so their res is going to waste</li><li>Being able to heal is great, but staring at an Onos' butt is not so much</li></ul><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
It should be obvious by this point that most people are saying that there are many other issues with the Gorge (that's only about half the issues people in this topic posted), and simply forcing players to play them is not the proper answer. What I was pointing out in my post which you quoted, was that even YOU hate playing as Gorge. Instead of playing as you're "supposed to" by building what the Khaam tells you to, you just run off and screw around. Not that I'm accusing you of anything, I'm saying: "Yes, the Gorge is a boring class that is fairly broken in more than one way" - and because of that, the one thing I definitely don't want is to be required to play as a Gorge. Every class should be a choice - not a requirement - and each class should be fun too... in my opinion anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1949450:date=Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 6 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you give players too much freedom, and too many creative options, there will be no sense of direction and no incentive to play as a team.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe this is true, but in my opinion, the main problem is that we are on the opposite side of this extreme: there isn't enough freedom as a Gorge, not enough creative options (that matter), and because of this, there is no incentive to play as a Gorge -> hence, no team dynamic.
A lot of other people made some other very good points, but I just wanted to touch on your last post there .ADHd -> you're talking about how you play as a "Support Marine", and that you don't understand why people don't want to do this as a Gorge. But for all the points you are making which you get "Enjoyment" out, you are using a jetpack, and mines, and you're repairing with a welder for 15 seconds.
Please note that what you're finding fun is Faster, More combat oriented, healing quicker, and more suited for regular combat (should the need arise) than any Gorge is:
-Jetpack is obviously faster (even a non-Jetpack Marine is faster than a Gorge with sprinting)
-A mine has more chance of killing a Kharaa than any Clog/Hydra combo - even with other structures
-healing a Harvester (for example) from low health would take over 30 seconds vs. your 15 seconds
Check this awesome math for the welder out:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Welder" target="_blank">Structure Repair Rate, Min: 60 Health/Armor per second
Structure Repair Rate, Max: 350 Health/Armor per second</a>
vs the Gorge as before:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/wiki/index.php/Heal_Spray" target="_blank">Heal Amount (structure): 8 x 5 = 40</a>
-and with all this awesomeness that you have over the Gorge, you still function like a regular marine with just as much firepower as anyone else
L> you could even buy a bigger weapon if you like.
Wow.. I should have looked at these numbers for myself.. no wonder the Gorge is so boring. The job they are supposed to specialize in, is done better by the opposing team's JOAT.
<!--quoteo(post=1949297:date=Jul 5 2012, 11:07 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Jul 5 2012, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1949297"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't let the door hit you on the way out, bro. Great things (games or otherwise) aren't made by a bunch of people who are afraid to figure things out and actually produce quality results. Acting like you've been thrown in a gas chamber because someone disagreed with you and had the wherewithal to explain why ............. is a bad approach to life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
@internetexplorer - do you really need to attack people like this? Ever heard that old saying "if you don't have anything nice to say..."? Verbally assaulting people out of the forums isn't a good way to make a point.
NS1 Gorge has had its roles sequestered by the alien comm. Since then I keep hearing that it should be a combat engineer.
Lets look at the engineer and medic from TF2.
Medic:
- Targeted healing. Allows for player to look away from their healing target, gives tactical depth.
- Strong defensive abilities from ubercharge. Usage is very tactical.
- Combat ability is all short range. Projectile weapon and knife.
- Depth of skill is in usage of short range weapons, and when to use ubercharge. Assisting the heavy in picking targets and alert of spies.
Engineer:
- Maintains only his own structures. No need to repair a command chair.
- Buildings are all weak, but immensely powerful. Several levels of maturation for turret.
- Repairing is almost instant on his own structures. Enemies can only advance with alphastrikes.
- Highly vulnerable to a single class - the spy.
- Combat ability is all short range. Slow rof shotgun and wrench.
- Depth of class is usage of the short range weapons, placement of structures and weeding out spies.
Currently the gorge has to maintain alot of structures - causing alot of bordom. If it was limited to his own, it would allow balancing of structure build speed to be based on the assumption that a gorge would never help. It would also force him to be more aggressive.
Another change would be to have some sort of ubercharge. Perhaps gradually when healing it would charge an enzyme ability. Or primal scream, same thing come to think of it.
I'm not sure about hydras. To follow TF2s lead, they should be strong and weak - countered by grenades. However grenade launchers are mid-game tech, while hydras are at any time. TF2 has no tech levels.
One thing to note is that both the medic and engineer are short range combat ability. The gorge has spit, which is... long range? Its not something I rely upon, more to keep marines from advancing in a straight line. Perhaps healspray should be made into a stronger melee option, currently its a comedy kill and marines always go to near melee range against a gorge.
Another thing that may be interesting would be something like 'celerity chains'. Gorges could place up to 5 structures, which would give a speed boost to aliens who pass by for a few seconds. String these along the way between hives, or toward bases to assist in movement - similar to the teleporter in TF2?
I do miss webs, though I feel it would tie too much into the defensive feel of the gorge. If we are going for aggressive expansion, we need a targeted ability that will counter jetpacks. Perhaps webs should be a short lived ability - one that you throw up when you see a marine passing through rather than prepare a net in wait.
Webs were very effective for setting up spit kills and grounding jetpackers. While not strictly offensive, they are definitely aggressive.
Rather than take an uber directly from TF2, something akin to Primal Scream would fit that role nicely. While it doesn't make anything harder to kill, it DOES enable that alpha strike push like charging with an ubered pyro/demo/soldier can.
Gorge spit kills have always kind of been comedical, iirc. The only time you'd see it used intentionally to kill would be in a gorgie orgie.
I also feel the engie has a specific reason for being close-range oriented, and that is to combat his nemisis, the spy. Medic is definitely midrange, and even the engie has an excellent pistol.
On the other hand, gorges should (theoretically) have skulks and such around for melee protection, while providing covering fire and heals.
Another change would be to have some sort of ubercharge. Perhaps gradually when healing it would charge an enzyme ability. Or primal scream, same thing come to think of it.
I'm not sure about hydras. To follow TF2s lead, they should be strong and weak - countered by grenades. However grenade launchers are mid-game tech, while hydras are at any time. TF2 has no tech levels.
One thing to note is that both the medic and engineer are short range combat ability. The gorge has spit, which is... long range? Its not something I rely upon, more to keep marines from advancing in a straight line. Perhaps healspray should be made into a stronger melee option, currently its a comedy kill and marines always go to near melee range against a gorge.
Another thing that may be interesting would be something like 'celerity chains'. Gorges could place up to 5 structures, which would give a speed boost to aliens who pass by for a few seconds. String these along the way between hives, or toward bases to assist in movement - similar to the teleporter in TF2?
I do miss webs, though I feel it would tie too much into the defensive feel of the gorge. If we are going for aggressive expansion, we need a targeted ability that will counter jetpacks. Perhaps webs should be a short lived ability - one that you throw up when you see a marine passing through rather than prepare a net in wait.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think the goal should be to mimic TF2 on either the Medic or the Engi, they do have some damn good ideas - but they typically wouldn't fit into NS2 very well.
I'm not sure what you mean about "maintaining structures" - you're saying as far as healing the Khaam's structures, or building them? I don't think the problem is in building them or healing them, its that the Gorge has no choice when it comes to what they are building. Healing is a matter of requirement, can't get away from that one - though a quicker heal over time would definitely be better. I would like to see the Gorge providing bonuses to various structures (<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=118514" target="_blank">some ideas here</a>) based on their own decisions.
I don't think an ubercharge fits with NS2, but I do think Deadzone has some good points about Primal Scream. Really any sort of Support ability would be nice for the Gorge.
Hydras are currently weak with health and weak with damage. I find them akin to level one Engi turrets, a nuisance but that's it (even weaker really). Even three of them together isn't enough to do much. I would like the Gorge to take a note from TF2 here where they allow the Engi to upgrade their turret, and to move it, and to have the mini-sentries which are controllable (granted that was years later, but still its a cool option). Fluttermingo had a pretty cool idea on upgrading Hydras with PRes that didn't get much notice: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=119112" target="_blank">over here</a>.
I agree about Spit being strangely not useful, though the Healspray has been tried stronger before and it was too powerful. *Shrug* I think there needs to be some sort of status effect weapon, but Spit recently had its slow effect removed. Maybe some sort of status effect while active (Gorge holds down button - Marines are affected, Gorge lets go - Marines no longer affected) -> would take the Gorge out of the fighting and remove its heal, but would also let the Gorge feel more useful. However I don't want to see another Vortex.. so.. again *shrug*.
The celerity chains sound like an interesting idea, but I don't know if they'd be useful - Celerity already does the job you're describing.
Lack of Webs is a major current problem, though I don't really see any ability having all that much of an effect when its the last of 4 skills to be gained. I think this is the major issue: lack of early abilities - really that's for any lifeform. Whether its the purchasing of individual skills or the building of hives to provide skills, I think this is one of the major issues with NS2 right now.
I've had some more thought and think I have a solution. Gorges no longer repair or build commanders structures. Instead give drifters a targeted 'regenerate' ability, where the drifter latches on for a rapid heal. Drifters are slow and weak, so will be shot off easily. My only issue with this idea is that it feels like a MAC clone.
<!--quoteo(post=1950065:date=Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM:name=botchiball)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (botchiball @ Jul 9 2012, 06:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950065"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think an ubercharge fits with NS2, but I do think Deadzone has some good points about Primal Scream. Really any sort of Support ability would be nice for the Gorge.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah my idea was that healing allies would charge up a primal scream ability, rather than simply have primal scream that can be used any time.
So what happens to Healspray, does it just not heal structures? I think I would find that crazy annoying, being a healer amidst destruction, but to be unable to do anything about it. Also I agree, sounds very MAC-like.
<!--quoteo(post=1950071:date=Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Jul 9 2012, 08:17 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1950071"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah my idea was that healing allies would charge up a primal scream ability, rather than simply have primal scream that can be used any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an interesting idea, does it just activate after its filled? How would it be controlled/displayed on HUD/viewed by other players? Are you talking simply removing PS from Onos and slapping it on the Gorge, or changing the ability boost or range or anything else? Would the Gorge have to hold a button down for this? Gotta remember that Gorge heal doesn't work like Medic -> so if his AOE heals would be cut off during Primal Scream, that could mean the death of an Onos (or several).
Well it has to be manually controlled when it is deployed, otherwise alot of its tactical usage is lost. Alot of skill in a TF2 Medic is knowing when to use ubercharge, and when to hold out for a bigger battle.
PS for gorge is just an idea, my main focus is the desire for a supporting, charged ability. If gorge got it, onos should not since we don't want overlap. The gorge should not lose his healing while this is on, unless the ability is incredibly powerful.