<!--quoteo(post=1930692:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:16 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>no</b>, having abilities cost resources is <b>NOT</b> a good idea)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why? Maybe I missed it when the reasoning behind this was explained in detail. Honestly, im all ears if someone wants to explain.
As for the rest of your post, there is a nostalgic sadness that NS2 won't be like NS1. That ship has passed though. There are many reasons why NS2 took the direction it did. Chiefly player scaling and ease of entry for new players on alien side. The way it was done in NS1 worked with a free mod, but with a commercial product things have to be different (or at least the devs feel so). Lamenting about how NS2 is not balanced like NS1 is just getting a bit tiresome. NS2 aliens are not NS1 aliens. This may seem stupid obvious, but NS1 aliens were very different in mechanics all around compared to marines. NS2 aliens are basically marine mechanics with an alien skin. Yes there is a lot of asymmetry, but the two sides are much closer to one another than in NS1. If anything doing it like this will provide an easier job in balancing. NS1 had years to tweak and get it right, the same should be afforded to NS2...its really a different game. Trying to force NS1 solutions for a very different NS2 is a dead end.
What we have now is simply one side (aliens) being overpowered. IMO its not some fundamental problem with the entire mechanics of alien side. It would be if you were trying to recreate NS1 aliens....but we are not. Lets move on.
Aliens have to things going for them: easy commanding and cheap stuff when compared to marines. They essentially need a basic nerf, but the trick to not make them boring or break them in the process
So lets go back to why not have abilities cost resources. Its almost equivalent to marines buying weapons. It would essentially increase the PRES price of alien lifeforms and could restrict them to a smaller palate of abilities then they have now. Its a nerf in the end, but one that does it so in a much more interesting way than basic stat decreases or outright removal of abilities. It presents more interesting evolution choices to players....and imo much more interesting than the commander simply pressing a button and all alien players suddenly having more stuff for free.
Unrelated: an old idea that could be used as an additional sink....alien players (or simply gorges) could also pay pres to activate chamber triggered abilities (umbra, cloak, energize).
what about the idea of 'evolving' the advanced forms, similar to how marines have to 'research' the new weapons? then the com would need to invest in lerks, fades, or onos mutations, just like marines need to do so in shottys, GLs, and the like.
The biggest problem is they're attempting to introduce new ideas onto an NS1 base and the ideas are clashing creating headaches in balance. The biggest one imo right now being the NS1 resource system clashing with the Alien Commander. The resource system relied on a resource sink for Alien balance; the Alien Commander removes the resource sink; you're now left with an overflow of resources on the Alien side. The solution is not so simple as reducing Alien starting resources either because then you still have the issue of everyone going Fade/Onos at once, but more importantly you have nothing but Skulks trying to fight off shotguns. The timing on Alien lifeforms is fine; the quantity is broken.
I've figured out what has been bugging me about fade lately. (I'm a big fade player, its my favourite class, I love it)
I like the recent change to blink. It encourages longer, but broken-up flights. The previous model, with very short bursts (the first big redesign), and less instant deceleration afterwards felt a little too vulnerable by comparison.
This one is great, smooth, controllable, and also the cap on energy usage means you have to break up the journey so marine have a chance to hit you Over all a great model... but there was just one thing Low energy scenarios felt a little... harsh.
I like that you need a minimum to start the blink, the icon is a fair indicator (if a little hard to pay attention to). It means I can't just stand on the PG and mindlessly hold fire anyone, I need to think about holding a little back.
But sometimes, right on the edge of that threshold, there seems to be a point where its possible to use up all your remaining energy, but receive no blink (or at least a very short one). I like to think I have a decent sense of timing, but its seems to happen a lot, and it feels a little unfair. especially in a tight battle when I need to get out of there pronto. I think it may be a bug, because it doesn't happen every time.
Ideally, what would improve this, would be, if I could hold right click while under the minimum required energy level, and as soon as I have enough, I get my one 'full blink'. If that seems a little too forgiving, then just removing the punishing small gap in which you can use all the energy, but not go anywhere would be really a good change imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1930692:date=Apr 27 2012, 09:16 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930692"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->no, having abilities cost resources is NOT a good idea)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1930769:date=Apr 27 2012, 07:42 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Apr 27 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Maybe I missed it when the reasoning behind this was explained in detail. Honestly, im all ears if someone wants to explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have all these great toys to play with early to mid game (and we will have even more diversity soon), and they don't see use, because people are saving for higher lifeforms. a few patches ago, it was very rare to see a skulk take an upgrade. now there is no penalty to using things, and the game is more interesting as an alien because of the change. I think it's a good move.
re: balance in general. I say, don't worry too much that aliens feel OP right now. there are big changes to come. once the game is feature complete, the real balancing can begin in earnest.
Heh, it was funny when the upgrades were made free. I kept seeing Marines asking if Skulks were buffed; in reality it was just that no one bothered spending res on upgrades before a higher lifeform.
Well I played a few builds now and it looks good. I only find it a bit frustrating to play lerk and gorge because of the restrictions added.
To sum it up a little: - Lerk speed needs to be upped again. Getting shotgunned all the time now. - Clog needs way more health and armor. Spent 5 min closing a doorway only to find a marine take his pistol and shoot it down in a few shots. - Hydra are good now but make them cost pres again (3 or 5) and remove the limit plz. Just ridiculous you can only place 3 of them. - If you are going to limit the Hydra why not limit the turrets also? Just played a +60 min game because of the marines turteling with a quadrillion turrets. - Getting lags / chockes more then in build 205.
I can see what you tried to adress in this build but the things you did were not the right things to adress it. But hey, can't know progress if you don't know what setbacks are :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Lerk speed needs to be upped again. Getting shotgunned all the time now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1930643:date=Apr 27 2012, 04:02 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 27 2012, 04:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930643"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fair enough, but then yes all classes need to be given a proper p.res sink indeed. (But what?)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc) Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres! Onos 20!
Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted/decided on through heavy Playtesting/Spreadsheeting.
BUT You get the point. You have to REALLY want that upgrade, and this creates that desired tradeoff in the choice. Something that is not occurring right now as its a no brainer to upgrade -<b> it might as well be automatic!!</b> Reminds me of a quote i love from Flayra: "All equipment, <u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, <u>it would cease to be an interesting decision</u> when choosing them."
And finally, i have a lot of ideas about how to EARN pres. Which is far more important IMO, as rewarding the player not only encourages the desired playstyle (teamwork etc) but also keeps 'em coming back for more! "Would you like to know more?" PM me. :)
I played Gorge last night and got killed after a while: Oh, lovely, 100 res. I didn't want to go Onos, but why shouldn't I? Having nothing else to spend res on (not even as the Gorge, the builder/engineer class) makes the res system from the perspective of the Gorge atleast seems shallow and superfluous.
Even for a public player, NS has a "competitive" feel. You really want your team to win. I remember (from NS1, and builds before this...) that when I had acquired a lot of res I sometimes decided to go Gorge, even though no Hive or RT had to be built. I knew my res probably could have been better spent if I went Fade, but I wanted to Gorge and build stuff. So I Gorged and put up defences at a Hive against JP rushes or created a choke point out on the map or whatever. I spent a lot of res on this and it was a gamble. Sometimes it paid off, sometimes it didn't. I couldn't just all of a sudden say "nah, I'll go Fade instead".
I still think structures should cost res (<b>and</b> have a set limit based on the amount of hives). Now when the Gorge can recycle structures, some of the res could be given back to the Gorge when a structure that have been built by the player is recycled. The players own structures could be viewable on Hive sight, with a slightly different color with the Alien "flashlight" and on the minimap.
<!--quoteo(post=1930932:date=Apr 28 2012, 04:01 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc) Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres! Onos 20!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree. It fits the style of the Alien side too. You start out as a Skulk, save res to go Onos and after a while you can afford regen or cara and so on ... even the player class itself matures.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good idea, though I do still believe gorge structures could go back to costing p.res on top of this.
<!--quoteo(post=1930779:date=Apr 27 2012, 08:13 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem is they're attempting to introduce new ideas onto an NS1 base and the ideas are clashing creating headaches in balance. The biggest one imo right now being the NS1 resource system clashing with the Alien Commander. The resource system relied on a resource sink for Alien balance; the Alien Commander removes the resource sink; you're now left with an overflow of resources on the Alien side. The solution is not so simple as reducing Alien starting resources either because then you still have the issue of everyone going Fade/Onos at once, but more importantly you have nothing but Skulks trying to fight off shotguns. The timing on Alien lifeforms is fine; the quantity is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know, I think if it was feasible for marines to fend off an equal number of higher lifeforms by spending pres we'd have balance despite the high resource flow; right now a good Fade is going to kill more than it's worth in pres, while marines never reach a similar point. That's the main reason why I suggested Medium armour, so they can improve defensively as well as offensively.
<!--quoteo(post=1931054:date=Apr 28 2012, 07:56 AM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 28 2012, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe they are toning it down for Celerity to be brought in =D one can only hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i hope not. certain lifeforms should not be useless without a particular upgrade.
<!--quoteo(post=1931073:date=Apr 28 2012, 09:14 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 28 2012, 09:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931073"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i hope not. certain lifeforms should not be useless without a particular upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and if celerity is required to make the aliens <i>playable</i>, you'll be back to the same problem NS1 has where 2 of the 3 hive types are objectively worse, and are almost never taken first
<!--quoteo(post=1930932:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:01 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 12:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc) Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres! Onos 20!
Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted/decided on through heavy Playtesting/Spreadsheeting.
BUT You get the point. You have to REALLY want that upgrade, and this creates that desired tradeoff in the choice. Something that is not occurring right now as its a no brainer to upgrade -<b> it might as well be automatic!!</b> Reminds me of a quote i love from Flayra: "All equipment, <u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, <u>it would cease to be an interesting decision</u> when choosing them."
And finally, i have a lot of ideas about how to EARN pres. Which is far more important IMO, as rewarding the player not only encourages the desired playstyle (teamwork etc) but also keeps 'em coming back for more! "Would you like to know more?" PM me. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you're talking about unlocking upgrades and abilities per class permanently for a one-time cost (because the other option would be /facepalm worthy).
I think the problem there is there is a balance assumption that players are going to unlock multiple skills across the lifeforms, when upgrades costing resources in the first place has shown what will happen. People will buy something like Carapace, Regen, and Celerity (when it gets added) for Skulk because you spend most of the game as Skulk (and these are permanent upgrades). They will then not spend a single resource more until they get to the lifeform they want, and they will only play that lifeform from then on because they have invested resources in it.
Also as I type that... that sounds a lot like co_.
EDIT: Actually yea, that idea sounds like you took combat and threw it on a map with team resources.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They will then not spend a single resource more until they get to the lifeform they want, and they will only play that lifeform from then on because they have invested resources in it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem with p.res costs on upgrades before was that it cost as much to get carapace on a skulk as it did on an onos. As a result, of course players are going to consider that 2 p.res for skulk carapace wasted. If however skulk carapace was 1 or 2 p.res and onos carapace was 10, you'd see a lot of players actually upgrading their skulk. (Certainly when the res flow is plenty anyway, either way it would at least create a trade-off)
Alternatively, if combined with a t.res for kill for the alien commander, or energy for kill (allowing him to use more support abilities, which need to scale with the amount of players) you would also see more people investing in upgrades on basic lifeforms (because it increases your effectiveness and is earned back in t.res or energy for the commander to spend on more field support)
<!--quoteo(post=1931133:date=Apr 28 2012, 11:59 AM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 28 2012, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with p.res costs on upgrades before was that it cost as much to get carapace on a skulk as it did on an onos. As a result, of course players are going to consider that 2 p.res for skulk carapace wasted. If however skulk carapace was 1 or 2 p.res and onos carapace was 10, you'd see a lot of players actually upgrading their skulk. (Certainly when the res flow is plenty anyway, either way it would at least create a trade-off)
Alternatively, if combined with a t.res for kill for the alien commander, or energy for kill (allowing him to use more support abilities, which need to scale with the amount of players) you would also see more people investing in upgrades on basic lifeforms (because it increases your effectiveness and is earned back in t.res or energy for the commander to spend on more field support)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh?
The reason people didn't spend resources on carapace on a Skulk was because Skulks are expected to die. You try your best sure, but you know you're going to die at some point. When upgrades cost resources there was very little reason to buy it because you could easily turn the next corner outside the hive and die.
The reason people didn't spend resources on carapace on a Skulk was because Skulks are expected to die. You try your best sure, but you know you're going to die at some point. When upgrades cost resources there was very little reason to buy it because you could easily turn the next corner outside the hive and die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's funny, because I regularly upgraded carapace/regen as a skulk (once I had leap) despite the cost. There were times when that cost meant that I respawned just shy of the amount I needed for a lerk, so I had to ask myself if the upgrades had really helped my skulk life do something useful. In the current system, everyone just buys all the upgrades they can all the time, and it seems completely out of touch with any sort of tradeoff or decision-making.
"Marines don't get anything for free. Why do aliens get player upgrades and gorge structures for free?"
<!--quoteo(post=1931147:date=Apr 28 2012, 12:19 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 28 2012, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's funny, because I regularly upgraded carapace/regen as a skulk (once I had leap) despite the cost. There were times when that cost meant that I respawned just shy of the amount I needed for a lerk, so I had to ask myself if the upgrades had really helped my skulk life do something useful. In the current system, everyone just buys all the upgrades they can all the time, and it seems completely out of touch with any sort of tradeoff or decision-making.
"Marines don't get anything for free. Why do aliens get player upgrades and gorge structures for free?"
Depends on the player I suppose. I've personally found that once you get good enough at incorporating wall jumping into fighting Marines, it becomes more about speed tanking than actually needing Carapace. When Leap gets added to that you've suddenly added ceiling-jumping to your repertoire.
The effects free carapace on skulks had on gameplay in this patch pretty much proves that carapace would not be a waste of p.res at all, and actually a sensible thing to invest in, since it increases your effectiveness and thus your team's ability to maintain and push forward map control. I've seen some good skulk players who aren't suicidal, i.e with proper camouflage play and/or regen they can stay alive for a long time and achieve a lot more than that suiciding skulk ever could (especially currently with those longer spawn timers)
Again, if they actually scaled the cost of upgrades based on the lifeform, 1 or 2 p.res on skulk carapace wouldn't seem that bad of an investment as it did before 205.
<!--quoteo(post=1931147:date=Apr 28 2012, 04:19 PM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 28 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931147"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's funny, because I regularly upgraded carapace/regen as a skulk (once I had leap) despite the cost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's probably because you're decent at the game. For anyone who's getting rickrolled on a server with better players, the wisest choice will almost always be to save up for beefier lifeforms and pray. It's just a little bit broken to charge skulks for upgrades because it'll only be in the interest of better players to use it. For the sake of public games, I'd advise against this, at least for skulks. The way the skulk plays is not really that inducive for costly upgrades I feel, regardless of the level at which you're playing, because optimal decisions often involve suiciding for a marine kill and I'm not sure I'd like to discourage that too much. It's still possible to have increasing costs for upgrades alongside higher lifeforms but I would suggesting starting at "skulk = 0".
It's a shame that we only have two upgrades per chamber at the moment and that the khamm only bothers to develop one per hive because it has a pretty negative impact on tradeoff promotion. The most effective route is always the most diverse upgrade (carapace) because all lifeforms can derive benefits from it. A really well-balanced set of chamber choices would be ideal for securing more variety of styles. For example, the skulk in NS1 was always ducking between celerity, silence and adrenaline as the situation saw fit. Likewise, the lerk had a serious choice to make between carapace or regeneration. The fade choices were admittedly a little more limited by comparison.
Generally, I think we could benefit from a slightly more eclectic response and could even potentially implement all three ideas in some iteration (rising upgrade-costs, more upgrades and multi-pack upgrade evolutions).
Comments
Why? Maybe I missed it when the reasoning behind this was explained in detail. Honestly, im all ears if someone wants to explain.
As for the rest of your post, there is a nostalgic sadness that NS2 won't be like NS1. That ship has passed though. There are many reasons why NS2 took the direction it did. Chiefly player scaling and ease of entry for new players on alien side. The way it was done in NS1 worked with a free mod, but with a commercial product things have to be different (or at least the devs feel so). Lamenting about how NS2 is not balanced like NS1 is just getting a bit tiresome. NS2 aliens are not NS1 aliens. This may seem stupid obvious, but NS1 aliens were very different in mechanics all around compared to marines. NS2 aliens are basically marine mechanics with an alien skin. Yes there is a lot of asymmetry, but the two sides are much closer to one another than in NS1. If anything doing it like this will provide an easier job in balancing. NS1 had years to tweak and get it right, the same should be afforded to NS2...its really a different game. Trying to force NS1 solutions for a very different NS2 is a dead end.
What we have now is simply one side (aliens) being overpowered. IMO its not some fundamental problem with the entire mechanics of alien side. It would be if you were trying to recreate NS1 aliens....but we are not. Lets move on.
Aliens have to things going for them: easy commanding and cheap stuff when compared to marines. They essentially need a basic nerf, but the trick to not make them boring or break them in the process
So lets go back to why not have abilities cost resources. Its almost equivalent to marines buying weapons. It would essentially increase the PRES price of alien lifeforms and could restrict them to a smaller palate of abilities then they have now. Its a nerf in the end, but one that does it so in a much more interesting way than basic stat decreases or outright removal of abilities. It presents more interesting evolution choices to players....and imo much more interesting than the commander simply pressing a button and all alien players suddenly having more stuff for free.
Unrelated: an old idea that could be used as an additional sink....alien players (or simply gorges) could also pay pres to activate chamber triggered abilities (umbra, cloak, energize).
The biggest problem is they're attempting to introduce new ideas onto an NS1 base and the ideas are clashing creating headaches in balance. The biggest one imo right now being the NS1 resource system clashing with the Alien Commander. The resource system relied on a resource sink for Alien balance; the Alien Commander removes the resource sink; you're now left with an overflow of resources on the Alien side. The solution is not so simple as reducing Alien starting resources either because then you still have the issue of everyone going Fade/Onos at once, but more importantly you have nothing but Skulks trying to fight off shotguns. The timing on Alien lifeforms is fine; the quantity is broken.
(I'm a big fade player, its my favourite class, I love it)
I like the recent change to blink.
It encourages longer, but broken-up flights.
The previous model, with very short bursts (the first big redesign), and less instant deceleration afterwards felt a little too vulnerable by comparison.
This one is great, smooth, controllable, and also the cap on energy usage means you have to break up the journey so marine have a chance to hit you
Over all a great model... but there was just one thing
Low energy scenarios felt a little... harsh.
I like that you need a minimum to start the blink, the icon is a fair indicator (if a little hard to pay attention to). It means I can't just stand on the PG and mindlessly hold fire anyone, I need to think about holding a little back.
But sometimes, right on the edge of that threshold, there seems to be a point where its possible to use up all your remaining energy, but receive no blink (or at least a very short one).
I like to think I have a decent sense of timing, but its seems to happen a lot, and it feels a little unfair. especially in a tight battle when I need to get out of there pronto. I think it may be a bug, because it doesn't happen every time.
Ideally, what would improve this, would be, if I could hold right click while under the minimum required energy level, and as soon as I have enough, I get my one 'full blink'.
If that seems a little too forgiving, then just removing the punishing small gap in which you can use all the energy, but not go anywhere would be really a good change imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1930769:date=Apr 27 2012, 07:42 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Apr 27 2012, 07:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930769"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why? Maybe I missed it when the reasoning behind this was explained in detail. Honestly, im all ears if someone wants to explain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We have all these great toys to play with early to mid game (and we will have even more diversity soon), and they don't see use, because people are saving for higher lifeforms.
a few patches ago, it was very rare to see a skulk take an upgrade.
now there is no penalty to using things, and the game is more interesting as an alien because of the change.
I think it's a good move.
re: balance in general. I say, don't worry too much that aliens feel OP right now. there are big changes to come.
once the game is feature complete, the real balancing can begin in earnest.
Heh, it was funny when the upgrades were made free. I kept seeing Marines asking if Skulks were buffed; in reality it was just that no one bothered spending res on upgrades before a higher lifeform.
To sum it up a little:
- Lerk speed needs to be upped again. Getting shotgunned all the time now.
- Clog needs way more health and armor. Spent 5 min closing a doorway only to find a marine take his pistol and shoot it down in a few shots.
- Hydra are good now but make them cost pres again (3 or 5) and remove the limit plz. Just ridiculous you can only place 3 of them.
- If you are going to limit the Hydra why not limit the turrets also? Just played a +60 min game because of the marines turteling with a quadrillion turrets.
- Getting lags / chockes more then in build 205.
I can see what you tried to adress in this build but the things you did were not the right things to adress it. But hey, can't know progress if you don't know what setbacks are :)
Keep up the good work UWE
This. Their speed now is abysmal.
I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc)
Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres!
Onos 20!
Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted/decided on through heavy Playtesting/Spreadsheeting.
BUT You get the point. You have to REALLY want that upgrade, and this creates that desired tradeoff in the choice. Something that is not occurring right now as its a no brainer to upgrade -<b> it might as well be automatic!!</b>
Reminds me of a quote i love from Flayra: "All equipment, <u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, <u>it would cease to be an interesting decision</u> when choosing them."
And finally, i have a lot of ideas about how to EARN pres. Which is far more important IMO, as rewarding the player not only encourages the desired playstyle (teamwork etc) but also keeps 'em coming back for more!
"Would you like to know more?" PM me. :)
Even for a public player, NS has a "competitive" feel. You really want your team to win. I remember (from NS1, and builds before this...) that when I had acquired a lot of res I sometimes decided to go Gorge, even though no Hive or RT had to be built. I knew my res probably could have been better spent if I went Fade, but I wanted to Gorge and build stuff. So I Gorged and put up defences at a Hive against JP rushes or created a choke point out on the map or whatever. I spent a lot of res on this and it was a gamble. Sometimes it paid off, sometimes it didn't. I couldn't just all of a sudden say "nah, I'll go Fade instead".
I still think structures should cost res (<b>and</b> have a set limit based on the amount of hives). Now when the Gorge can recycle structures, some of the res could be given back to the Gorge when a structure that have been built by the player is recycled. The players own structures could be viewable on Hive sight, with a slightly different color with the Alien "flashlight" and on the minimap.
<!--quoteo(post=1930932:date=Apr 28 2012, 04:01 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 28 2012, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930932"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forget where i heard the idea, might have been another PTer.. but it was basically "Scale Upgrade Costs"
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc)
Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres!
Onos 20!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree. It fits the style of the Alien side too. You start out as a Skulk, save res to go Onos and after a while you can afford regen or cara and so on ... even the player class itself matures.
Good idea, though I do still believe gorge structures could go back to costing p.res on top of this.
Gorge can use it's Personal Res to build more hydras/cysts after hitting the "soft" cap.
I don't know, I think if it was feasible for marines to fend off an equal number of higher lifeforms by spending pres we'd have balance despite the high resource flow; right now a good Fade is going to kill more than it's worth in pres, while marines never reach a similar point. That's the main reason why I suggested Medium armour, so they can improve defensively as well as offensively.
Maybe they are toning it down for Celerity to be brought in =D one can only hope.
i hope not. certain lifeforms should not be useless without a particular upgrade.
and if celerity is required to make the aliens <i>playable</i>, you'll be back to the same problem NS1 has where 2 of the 3 hive types are objectively worse, and are almost never taken first
so skulk upgrades cost 1 or 2 pres. so going cara and regen might cost 4 pres. this still makes it cheap enough for him to survive mid game /late game. (esp if we scale cara to # of hives etc)
Fade going cara might cost 10 or 15 pres!
Onos 20!
Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted/decided on through heavy Playtesting/Spreadsheeting.
BUT You get the point. You have to REALLY want that upgrade, and this creates that desired tradeoff in the choice. Something that is not occurring right now as its a no brainer to upgrade -<b> it might as well be automatic!!</b>
Reminds me of a quote i love from Flayra: "All equipment, <u><!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->upgrades<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></u>, etc. have downsides to go with their new capabilities. If they didn’t, <u>it would cease to be an interesting decision</u> when choosing them."
And finally, i have a lot of ideas about how to EARN pres. Which is far more important IMO, as rewarding the player not only encourages the desired playstyle (teamwork etc) but also keeps 'em coming back for more!
"Would you like to know more?" PM me. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you're talking about unlocking upgrades and abilities per class permanently for a one-time cost (because the other option would be /facepalm worthy).
I think the problem there is there is a balance assumption that players are going to unlock multiple skills across the lifeforms, when upgrades costing resources in the first place has shown what will happen. People will buy something like Carapace, Regen, and Celerity (when it gets added) for Skulk because you spend most of the game as Skulk (and these are permanent upgrades). They will then not spend a single resource more until they get to the lifeform they want, and they will only play that lifeform from then on because they have invested resources in it.
Also as I type that... that sounds a lot like co_.
EDIT: Actually yea, that idea sounds like you took combat and threw it on a map with team resources.
Alternatively, if combined with a t.res for kill for the alien commander, or energy for kill (allowing him to use more support abilities, which need to scale with the amount of players) you would also see more people investing in upgrades on basic lifeforms (because it increases your effectiveness and is earned back in t.res or energy for the commander to spend on more field support)
Alternatively, if combined with a t.res for kill for the alien commander, or energy for kill (allowing him to use more support abilities, which need to scale with the amount of players) you would also see more people investing in upgrades on basic lifeforms (because it increases your effectiveness and is earned back in t.res or energy for the commander to spend on more field support)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Eh?
The reason people didn't spend resources on carapace on a Skulk was because Skulks are expected to die. You try your best sure, but you know you're going to die at some point. When upgrades cost resources there was very little reason to buy it because you could easily turn the next corner outside the hive and die.
The reason people didn't spend resources on carapace on a Skulk was because Skulks are expected to die. You try your best sure, but you know you're going to die at some point. When upgrades cost resources there was very little reason to buy it because you could easily turn the next corner outside the hive and die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's funny, because I regularly upgraded carapace/regen as a skulk (once I had leap) despite the cost. There were times when that cost meant that I respawned just shy of the amount I needed for a lerk, so I had to ask myself if the upgrades had really helped my skulk life do something useful. In the current system, everyone just buys all the upgrades they can all the time, and it seems completely out of touch with any sort of tradeoff or decision-making.
"Marines don't get anything for free. Why do aliens get player upgrades and gorge structures for free?"
"BECAUSE IT'S ASYMMETRIC HURRGGGHHH"
"Marines don't get anything for free. Why do aliens get player upgrades and gorge structures for free?"
"BECAUSE IT'S ASYMMETRIC HURRGGGHHH"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Depends on the player I suppose. I've personally found that once you get good enough at incorporating wall jumping into fighting Marines, it becomes more about speed tanking than actually needing Carapace. When Leap gets added to that you've suddenly added ceiling-jumping to your repertoire.
Again, if they actually scaled the cost of upgrades based on the lifeform, 1 or 2 p.res on skulk carapace wouldn't seem that bad of an investment as it did before 205.
That's probably because you're decent at the game. For anyone who's getting rickrolled on a server with better players, the wisest choice will almost always be to save up for beefier lifeforms and pray. It's just a little bit broken to charge skulks for upgrades because it'll only be in the interest of better players to use it. For the sake of public games, I'd advise against this, at least for skulks. The way the skulk plays is not really that inducive for costly upgrades I feel, regardless of the level at which you're playing, because optimal decisions often involve suiciding for a marine kill and I'm not sure I'd like to discourage that too much. It's still possible to have increasing costs for upgrades alongside higher lifeforms but I would suggesting starting at "skulk = 0".
It's a shame that we only have two upgrades per chamber at the moment and that the khamm only bothers to develop one per hive because it has a pretty negative impact on tradeoff promotion. The most effective route is always the most diverse upgrade (carapace) because all lifeforms can derive benefits from it. A really well-balanced set of chamber choices would be ideal for securing more variety of styles. For example, the skulk in NS1 was always ducking between celerity, silence and adrenaline as the situation saw fit. Likewise, the lerk had a serious choice to make between carapace or regeneration. The fade choices were admittedly a little more limited by comparison.
Generally, I think we could benefit from a slightly more eclectic response and could even potentially implement all three ideas in some iteration (rising upgrade-costs, more upgrades and multi-pack upgrade evolutions).