IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1931144:date=Apr 28 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 28 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931144"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The reason people didn't spend resources on carapace on a Skulk was because Skulks are expected to die. You try your best sure, but you know you're going to die at some point. When upgrades cost resources there was very little reason to buy it because you could easily turn the next corner outside the hive and die.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not according to a lot of other ppl i've heard from regarding this topic? Xarius hit the nail on the head.
Of course there's a good chance you are going to die at some point, especially with a lower life form, this is why its CHEAPER to upgrade lower life forms.
And no, i did not mean a permanent upgrade path. I'll have to think about the pros and cons of that one.. Right off the bat i dont like it because it seems cheap and as if it solves nothing. So i got cara and regen for 2 pres, then go Onos and i dont have to spend that 20pres for cara, ho ho! Even if thats not the case and its on a "per lifeform" basis upgrade, it still doesnt upset the variance in pres across the team! ofc you would spend cara and regen if you could, and so would everyone else, so youd save up ONCE for it and then never worry about making that decision again, whereas if you had to buy it each time, well, you may not have enough TIME to wait for the extra 15 res, you need to help siege the base NOW to win, etc. Trade offs and decisions etc. are the point of making the upgrades cost pres. Making them scale allows for them to actually be utilized (unlike before)
Why can't the Gorge just have a Hydra-gland or something? Generate Hydras at about two a minute (?), maxes at 3. Only have one in the tank when you spawn. Placing a Hydra takes one out of the tank.
Then Hydras would always automatically die after, say, 2 or 3 minutes (perhaps longer with a pres-costed unlock). They'd have to mature very quickly in this format, obviously.
That would let a Gorge get into an area fast, pump out Hydras to help a fight or hold a point, but there would never be a serious Hydra farm anywhere. Hydras would show up in carefully tended <i>gardens</i>, at the front or at a choke - and would generally mean a Gorge is nearby to tend it.
You could even let the Gorge plant Hydras off-creep, but with a seriously limited life-span...? Like, 20 seconds? Again, lets a Gorge rush into an important fight, unload some Hydras, then revert to healing or running away or whatever.
The point here is that Hydras would be fundamentally different to turrets - not a fleshy-wussy turret or spammable turret or nade-bait turret, but an extension of a Gorge's presence, the method a Gorge uses to fight.
...if re-deploying turrets all the damn time would be too painful, maybe they wouldn't die as long as the Gorge is nearby...? Let them make a little noise if you get too far...? Too confusing?
<b>Gorge pres</b>
Get your existing Gorge, and nerf everything a bit.
Now, give a Gorge pres-costed unlocks that buff buildings and abilities beyond the present state. Want decent Hydras? You need to unlock your hydra upgrade (I dunno, make 'em redder, or something). More Hydras at once? Longer-lasting hydras? Get your wallet out. Want to get proper cysts and be able to assist structure building? Unlock that bit. Want decent healing in-combat, or some decent survivability? Spend yer pres.
Need to pop out some quick basic crap then morph on into a combat critter? Fine - don't upgrade.
That'd potentially make the Gorge's "thing" a vast depth of customisability. You could even make it a mini-tech-tree for the Gorge, with either-or options (or, simply, use the maximum of two upgrade slots, or whatever). Is that a tough combat-healing Gorge lurking down the back, or a wussy builder, or a Hydra-herder?
<b>Silly ideas about Drifters</b>
1. Let aliens kill them for healz. Or just make them heal aliens in a radius when they die - but only if killed by either an alien attack or the khom's ability-activation.
Seems to be easy-ish to do (?) and fun - they're fun targets for Marines, and you can imagine a stream of them coming into a big fight - shiiiiit, kill 'em kill 'em KILL 'EM.
2. Gorges can make 'em pets.
Shoot Drifter with special attack, Drifter follows you. Shoot 'em again, they stop.
You can then place them in good spots without the khom having the mess about with them....
...but less pointless, maybe too hard to balance (costs pres, of course): if you have a Drifter following you, you get a big fat buff - maybe to building, but I was thinking it'd be cool to have it give a Gorge some late-game artillery-style attack. Not quite at an arc level, but something pretty significant - the kicker being that the marines just have to pop the wussy Drifter to switch off the ability.
Maybe an nega-arc ability? That is, a long range AOE heal, with a map indication to point the marines at 'em? Or just a frenzy-style buff to friendles, or a speed buff to Onos :P , again only as long as you can keep that Drifter alive... Whatever, some late-game ability, anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=1930784:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:25 PM:name=Melatonin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melatonin @ Apr 27 2012, 01:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930784"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We have all these great toys to play with early to mid game (and we will have even more diversity soon), and they don't see use, because people are saving for higher lifeforms. a few patches ago, it was very rare to see a skulk take an upgrade. now there is no penalty to using things, and the game is more interesting as an alien because of the change. I think it's a good move.
re: balance in general. I say, don't worry too much that aliens feel OP right now. there are big changes to come. once the game is feature complete, the real balancing can begin in earnest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If thats the case, then its really a problem of costs and benefits of those abilities. The benefits for those upgrades on skulks were over priced for the benefits they provided. While higher life forms were under priced for the benefits they provided.
Viewing it like this, I see a similar problem happening for marines soon. Marines might feel compelled not to spend PRES in order to save up for HA. Of course this shouldn't happen if HA is properly priced compared to the rest of what a marine player can buy. Right now marines have no real HARD choices. Marines buy weapons "upgrades" for essentially one "lifeform". The Shotgun, GL and FT are basically on same tier, so they are all used commonly. Welders, mines and jumpjets bring unique function and utility that doesn't interfere with weapon choice or break the bank. However, once heavy armor comes out I think we could see similar problems with aliens. Of course the solution shouldn't be to throw our hands up in the air and make all marine upgrades free and forget about trying to price/balance things appropriately. We should do the same for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=1930779:date=Apr 27 2012, 01:13 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ Apr 27 2012, 01:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest problem is they're attempting to introduce new ideas onto an NS1 base and the ideas are clashing creating headaches in balance. The biggest one imo right now being the NS1 resource system clashing with the Alien Commander. The resource system relied on a resource sink for Alien balance; the Alien Commander removes the resource sink; you're now left with an overflow of resources on the Alien side. The solution is not so simple as reducing Alien starting resources either because then you still have the issue of everyone going Fade/Onos at once, but more importantly you have nothing but Skulks trying to fight off shotguns. The timing on Alien lifeforms is fine; the quantity is broken.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree there are many leftovers form NS1 in NS2 that no longer work, but I think our solutions for this are very different. Making NS2 aliens more like NS1 aliens is not a realistic solution. I think we need to identify those clashes and make them better work with the structure of NS2. IMO one those clashes is not pricing appropriately due to still having a NS1 mindset. Aliens don't have anything early game to really sink pres into and delay (or outright prevent) them from going with a higher lifeform later on. Also higher lifeforms are just too effective for their price. This is a leftover from NS1 were higher lifeforms had to be super effective since it cost the alien side a significant amount of RES to get. Now everyone can easily save up res to do so.
Ironically, the biggest clash between NS2 aliens and remaining NS1 mechanics (which still form the most important parts of the game) is a lack of proper movement, which has been exacerbated by repeatedly nerfing movement abilities on most lifeforms in favour of gimmicky skill-free attack abilities.
Comments
the marine rifle stop working..... but if you shoot 1 shot whit gun it start working again
Not according to a lot of other ppl i've heard from regarding this topic?
Xarius hit the nail on the head.
Of course there's a good chance you are going to die at some point, especially with a lower life form, this is why its CHEAPER to upgrade lower life forms.
And no, i did not mean a permanent upgrade path. I'll have to think about the pros and cons of that one.. Right off the bat i dont like it because it seems cheap and as if it solves nothing. So i got cara and regen for 2 pres, then go Onos and i dont have to spend that 20pres for cara, ho ho! Even if thats not the case and its on a "per lifeform" basis upgrade, it still doesnt upset the variance in pres across the team! ofc you would spend cara and regen if you could, and so would everyone else, so youd save up ONCE for it and then never worry about making that decision again, whereas if you had to buy it each time, well, you may not have enough TIME to wait for the extra 15 res, you need to help siege the base NOW to win, etc. Trade offs and decisions etc. are the point of making the upgrades cost pres. Making them scale allows for them to actually be utilized (unlike before)
<b>Free Hydras</b>
Why can't the Gorge just have a Hydra-gland or something? Generate Hydras at about two a minute (?), maxes at 3. Only have one in the tank when you spawn. Placing a Hydra takes one out of the tank.
Then Hydras would always automatically die after, say, 2 or 3 minutes (perhaps longer with a pres-costed unlock). They'd have to mature very quickly in this format, obviously.
That would let a Gorge get into an area fast, pump out Hydras to help a fight or hold a point, but there would never be a serious Hydra farm anywhere. Hydras would show up in carefully tended <i>gardens</i>, at the front or at a choke - and would generally mean a Gorge is nearby to tend it.
You could even let the Gorge plant Hydras off-creep, but with a seriously limited life-span...? Like, 20 seconds? Again, lets a Gorge rush into an important fight, unload some Hydras, then revert to healing or running away or whatever.
The point here is that Hydras would be fundamentally different to turrets - not a fleshy-wussy turret or spammable turret or nade-bait turret, but an extension of a Gorge's presence, the method a Gorge uses to fight.
...if re-deploying turrets all the damn time would be too painful, maybe they wouldn't die as long as the Gorge is nearby...? Let them make a little noise if you get too far...? Too confusing?
<b>Gorge pres</b>
Get your existing Gorge, and nerf everything a bit.
Now, give a Gorge pres-costed unlocks that buff buildings and abilities beyond the present state. Want decent Hydras? You need to unlock your hydra upgrade (I dunno, make 'em redder, or something). More Hydras at once? Longer-lasting hydras? Get your wallet out. Want to get proper cysts and be able to assist structure building? Unlock that bit. Want decent healing in-combat, or some decent survivability? Spend yer pres.
Need to pop out some quick basic crap then morph on into a combat critter? Fine - don't upgrade.
That'd potentially make the Gorge's "thing" a vast depth of customisability. You could even make it a mini-tech-tree for the Gorge, with either-or options (or, simply, use the maximum of two upgrade slots, or whatever). Is that a tough combat-healing Gorge lurking down the back, or a wussy builder, or a Hydra-herder?
<b>Silly ideas about Drifters</b>
1. Let aliens kill them for healz. Or just make them heal aliens in a radius when they die - but only if killed by either an alien attack or the khom's ability-activation.
Seems to be easy-ish to do (?) and fun - they're fun targets for Marines, and you can imagine a stream of them coming into a big fight - shiiiiit, kill 'em kill 'em KILL 'EM.
2. Gorges can make 'em pets.
Shoot Drifter with special attack, Drifter follows you. Shoot 'em again, they stop.
You can then place them in good spots without the khom having the mess about with them....
...but less pointless, maybe too hard to balance (costs pres, of course): if you have a Drifter following you, you get a big fat buff - maybe to building, but I was thinking it'd be cool to have it give a Gorge some late-game artillery-style attack. Not quite at an arc level, but something pretty significant - the kicker being that the marines just have to pop the wussy Drifter to switch off the ability.
Maybe an nega-arc ability? That is, a long range AOE heal, with a map indication to point the marines at 'em? Or just a frenzy-style buff to friendles, or a speed buff to Onos :P , again only as long as you can keep that Drifter alive... Whatever, some late-game ability, anyway.
a few patches ago, it was very rare to see a skulk take an upgrade.
now there is no penalty to using things, and the game is more interesting as an alien because of the change.
I think it's a good move.
re: balance in general. I say, don't worry too much that aliens feel OP right now. there are big changes to come.
once the game is feature complete, the real balancing can begin in earnest.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If thats the case, then its really a problem of costs and benefits of those abilities.
The benefits for those upgrades on skulks were over priced for the benefits they provided.
While higher life forms were under priced for the benefits they provided.
Viewing it like this, I see a similar problem happening for marines soon. Marines might feel compelled not to spend PRES in order to save up for HA. Of course this shouldn't happen if HA is properly priced compared to the rest of what a marine player can buy. Right now marines have no real HARD choices. Marines buy weapons "upgrades" for essentially one "lifeform". The Shotgun, GL and FT are basically on same tier, so they are all used commonly. Welders, mines and jumpjets bring unique function and utility that doesn't interfere with weapon choice or break the bank. However, once heavy armor comes out I think we could see similar problems with aliens. Of course the solution shouldn't be to throw our hands up in the air and make all marine upgrades free and forget about trying to price/balance things appropriately. We should do the same for aliens.
I agree there are many leftovers form NS1 in NS2 that no longer work, but I think our solutions for this are very different.
Making NS2 aliens more like NS1 aliens is not a realistic solution. I think we need to identify those clashes and make them better work with the structure of NS2.
IMO one those clashes is not pricing appropriately due to still having a NS1 mindset. Aliens don't have anything early game to really sink pres into and delay (or outright prevent) them from going with a higher lifeform later on. Also higher lifeforms are just too effective for their price. This is a leftover from NS1 were higher lifeforms had to be super effective since it cost the alien side a significant amount of RES to get. Now everyone can easily save up res to do so.