<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cysts can be connected to one another even though they are not fully built (bug?)...which allows quick expansion and no real need for gorge. Then you can just plop down harvesters. I'd increase the time to build ALL alien structures across the board, to compensate for drifter travel time AND to make gorge needed more. Only allow fully built cysts to connect infestation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree, t.res on cysts is great, but they should probably also build a little slower. The new harvester and whip build times are perfect IMO, having a gorge definitely pays of on these.
The gorge should now get full cysts instead of mini-ones, so a gorge laying a path of cysts to an extractor is a viable alternative to the comm having to waste 10 t.res on that. (You need quite a few more mini-cysts than you do comm ones, so currently it's usually not worth it, not to mention that if the gorge then accidentally recycles one of his cyst he breaks the cyst chain)
I don't agree with unbuilt cyst chains being a bad thing, AFAIK it's not a bug, last patch I found it annoying that I had to wait for cysts to grow before I could place the next. It just felt unintuitive and slows you down for no real reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making gorge structure free I think is the correct direction, but it needs tweaking<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've said it before and I will say it again, making them entirely free is a bad move, instead they should cost a small amount, to provide the gorge with a continuous p.res sink. (they could still be capped) Just dropping hydras to 5 p.res, clogs to 1 and cysts to 1 would have already been a significant buff to the gorge's relevance in a game. Instead now we have gorges with 100 p.res later in the game, which means an extra onos marines have to deal with. (Despite that gorge having had hydras continuously on the front line all game, impacting the game) I.e lategame ARCs come in and there's nothing left for you to build on, so you go onos and tear them up. It's basically as if marines could buy mines once and then continuously place them per three as long as they stayed alive.
Putting p.res back on these structures would also make recycling them a slower process, i.e you could have the gorge eat them and regain half or more of their p.res, which would also require gorges to physically recycle them, rather than just moving to the next position on the map and plop down all his structures again (ultimate turtling)
Also, upgrades should probably go back to costing p.res, on top of remaining as expensive as they are in terms of T.res currently. But the cost should scale based on the lifeform, and could be lowered for every additional hive. (Or once the shell is matured, or something like that) This way they're a bigger sink early in the game, when they are the most powerful, and on lifeforms on which they matter the most. (On top of providing that much needed extra p.res sink for non-gorge lifeforms)
One thing I have really liked as of late, probably more so in this patch, is gorges moving directly to res nodes and placing unconnected cysts on them so the comm can quickly drop harvesters. At the moment however, as a gorge, I struggle to make it to the nearest 3 nodes before the comm can just rapid fire cysts to them.
I think that if spending team res on cysts was more prohibitive, gorges erecting makeshift outposts are res nodes would be more common, and these outposts would require more attention from skulks early game. Even if the gorge put up his 3 hydras, all the marines would need to do is rush and kill the gorge, and the entire outpost would go down.
I know people don't like the mention of energy, but making comm cysts energy based again would accomplish this nicely I think. At the moment energy is a no brainer, as it always goes to misting. If the hive started with say, 150 energy, with cysts costing 25 energy and mist costing 50 energy, I think comms would rely on gorges to a greater degree.
To be fair, I think 2 t.res us a more than adequate price for cysts and it does in fact put quite a burden on the alien economy if the comm has to place them all by himself. Only problem is that the gorge's mini-cysts aren't really meant to be used to connect to extractors, like I mentioned in my previous post. (If he recycles he can accidentally break a cyst chain and their range is too small meaning with just 5 you usually can't even reach a next extractor) Gorges being able to do some of the cysting instead of the comm SHOULD become standard, since that saves the comm T.res, but first UWE needs to upgrade the gorge cyst and actually make him capable of properly doing that job.
(Then we will truly have an ecomomy-aggression trade-off, i.e one less skulk on the frontlines but less t.res on cysts and faster build time, would be perfect)
Just bought and played. 2 games in a row, solo at the start, take out cysts and solo the odd skulk that bothered to come along. Hinders alien expansion so much. No res no win.
You need to let RTs generate their own cyst, it is far too easy to tunnel aliens in
i also could not find a med or ammo button. that is the worst part of this, if its not there its simple. if it is, i cant see it in bindings. marines need the comm to jump to those alerts, and all i could do is stop and have to type it. again this could be me just not finding the button but i could not see it in bindings, if it is, help greatly received. if not, simplest and most basic and powerful tool for marines is med and ammo request.
<!--quoteo(post=1930327:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:23 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930327"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I actually think thats a bad thing, this means that skulks can type kill in console to go into hive defense faster, or to defend base rts faster. If they know the spawn timings this is not hard to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Playing a few games last night, I thought this patch was fun. I'm expecting a lot of things to change so I wouldn't get worked up over a few experiments people.
<!--quoteo(post=1930518:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM:name=ixnay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ixnay @ Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still think alien commander is a bad idea.
Just bought and played. 2 games in a row, solo at the start, take out cysts and solo the odd skulk that bothered to come along. Hinders alien expansion so much. No res no win.
You need to let RTs generate their own cyst, it is far too easy to tunnel aliens in
i also could not find a med or ammo button. that is the worst part of this, if its not there its simple. if it is, i cant see it in bindings. marines need the comm to jump to those alerts, and all i could do is stop and have to type it. again this could be me just not finding the button but i could not see it in bindings, if it is, help greatly received. if not, simplest and most basic and powerful tool for marines is med and ammo request.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was one of the people who contributed to the whining about performance in this game. In all honesty... from a business perspective, this game needs to perform well if you want it to sell. I have shown this game to all my friends. Many think it looks cool, but my intelligent friends (The ones you REALLY want to buy this game) see how poorly it plays and would never "waste" their money on it. I am an extreme brown nosing fanboy when it comes to promoting your game, but I get embarassed showing it to people with constant terrible FPS and server hitches.
Charlie, we all love your game. It's fantastic, and I mean that from my heart. The problem is that many NS players are very intelligent people (Not your average beer guzzling, FPS stoner kid). I have seen so much bandaiding on this game. What I mean is that there are issues you guys know about and think you can hide with clever little things. Us smart people see it and it makes us question you. It detracts from the quality of this game and makes me wonder how much more is being bandaided behind the scenes. I myself have found bugs and thought of easy solutions to fix them... yet it never happens. I know other people like Dragon who have actually posted the exact code needed to fix a bug... but it hasn't been done. You guys are ignoring the principle concept of making a stellar title. Everything needs to be solid... once it is... add more. It seems like all you guys care about is rushing things to get this game done... well that doesn't make a good game.
The community is here to help you guys. A lot of peoples ideas are bad... a lot are good. You guys are smart enough to know when somebody is conveying a real idea.
I am losing a lot of faith in you guys... not as game makers but as businessmen. I know you guys can make a game... that is apparent... but you guys haven't followed through on making it sellable. This game will never amount to anything with the current state of performance and potential for competitive play. I know you guys are working on it, and I have seen improvements. Often when I see improvements though, you guys add some new features that completely counter-act your optimizing (Like adding incentive to have spam fests on a server).
I want you guys to take notice that the most vocal and biggest contributers to this games community are the competitive teams. How can I claim this? Well for one we own all the hosted servers in this game. Every server in this game is hosted by a competitive team with the exception of a few. We all first saw the potential of this game... we looked past the bugs and performance and bought servers anyway. We made it possible for people to actually play your game. We dump our hard earned money every month to support your game so it can be played. Sure that money may not be going into your pockets directly but we are still making it possible for your game to be played. Many of us have already thrown hundreds of dollars into this game and our opinions are still overlooked. We take the game seriously and follow it more closely than anybody... yet our opinions and ideas are often the most overlooked. If you want this game to be successful you will need to start listening to the competitive players and what they have to say about this game. This game absolutely needs to be balanced for competition. That is the way to market this game. The pretty graphics and concepts may draw people in at first but they won't stay if the game is dumbed down to the point that it is currently. I mean I honestly barely ever play BF3... great graphics and optimization but terrible gameplay that will NEVER be competitive or rewarding. Get more playtestes who play competitively. Get more intelligent people who really know what makes a game great on the inside. It's great to have a bunch of laidbacks guys to test out your product giving their average opinion... but what will make this game shine is taking the advice from the players who strive for excellence in gaming.
Disclaimer: the opinions below are based off very little 206 gameplay because I'm currently getting such a low framerate that playing more doesn't seem that appealing until I upgrade my system. That said:
Drifter 2.0 is great, but I really don't like the changes to lerk speed and onos charge (I find the "angry" thing just plain bewildering). I recognize that the Lerk domination of 205 needed to be fixed, but nerfing his speed is the last way in the world I would've done it.
I was also really excited about the new gorge when I first heard the plans for it, but now I'm not so sure. I hadn't considered the fact that losing a hydra now has no consequence. The game now rewards aggressively placed hydras more so than cleverly placed hydras. I don't understand clogs at all. They go down so easily and take so long to build into a useful structure. It pretty much takes all 10 of your opening clogs to block a doorway, and it seems like a marine can just axe a hole in it as much time as you took building it. I'd like them a lot better if they were much bigger, much tougher and you got far fewer of them.
When going gorge in 206, I immediately feel sort of overwhelmed with the fact that I can build everything right away, and feel like I ought to hurry up and do so to be optimally effective. Waiting for res as a gorge prior to this release certainly was boring, but there was at least a steady sense of planning and progress. I'm not saying "revert it" necessarily, but I think I prefer it to the current implementation of gorge 2.0.
Also, compared to other patches, this one came out with a ton of features and not much polish. The structures don't expire when gorge goes skulk yet (which is obviously crucial to making the ability not broken), the placeholder effect for camo drifter looks like a glitch, the friendly fire on gorge structures seems weird and out of place, the icon for clogs doesn't look much different between when you can and can't build them, there's a horrible glitch with your mouse sensitivity turning to molasses sometimes after dying as an Onos. I feel more like a tester and less like a player this time around, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
As an NS2 beta tester, I'm glad you guys are cranking out a lot of features at once, and I'm sure you're getting a lot of good feedback and statistics to inform future decisions from just one build.
As an NS2 player I kinda wish drifter 2.0 had been the only change with this patch, along with maybe removing weldlock and somehow nerfing the stackability of BB.
I still have an open mind about gorge 2.0 and am interested to see how it appears and functions in future builds, but I'm going to be a sad guy if slow lerk and manually charging "angry" onos don't go away in a few builds.
Ah well, I still have faith in you guys. Looking forward to seeing how design decisions for the next build play out!
<!--quoteo(post=1930545:date=Apr 26 2012, 11:21 PM:name=serpico)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpico @ Apr 26 2012, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drifter 2.0 is great, but I really don't like the changes to lerk speed and onos charge (I find the "angry" thing just plain bewildering). I recognize that the Lerk domination of 205 needed to be fixed, but nerfing his speed is the last way in the world I would've done it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the change, Onos aren't worth the 75 res unless your team is committing to a final push. A single marine can easily kite the Onos now, and Gods forbid JP's or Flamethrowers coming out.
I completely agree that nerfing the Lerk's speed was the wrong way to go. What most people were complaining about was that half the Alien team could go Lerk and start bile bombing the marine base with all of the bile bomb's stacking. The least that could have been done is going half-way; allow your own bile bombs to stack but disallow other player's bile bombs to stack on yours. As it stands it's become too dangerous to try gassing as a Lerk because you've lost your only defense when flying in that close to Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1930566:date=Apr 27 2012, 12:15 AM:name=internetexplorer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Apr 27 2012, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is still the part that's wrong with the lerk. It's responsible for the vast majority of the problems with the class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1930504:date=Apr 26 2012, 06:35 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 26 2012, 06:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree, t.res on cysts is great, but they should probably also build a little slower. The new harvester and whip build times are perfect IMO, having a gorge definitely pays of on these.
The gorge should now get full cysts instead of mini-ones, so a gorge laying a path of cysts to an extractor is a viable alternative to the comm having to waste 10 t.res on that. (You need quite a few more mini-cysts than you do comm ones, so currently it's usually not worth it, not to mention that if the gorge then accidentally recycles one of his cyst he breaks the cyst chain)
I don't agree with unbuilt cyst chains being a bad thing, AFAIK it's not a bug, last patch I found it annoying that I had to wait for cysts to grow before I could place the next. It just felt unintuitive and slows you down for no real reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree its a bit annoying to wait for the cysts to form before continuing. However, the problem with alien's current faceroll expansion is no longer needing to wait for drifters (or pay for them for that matter) or wait for cysts to finish building. Its also an issue later on when alien comm can just rapidly spam them forward and all over the place. Without drifters there are no longer any speed bumps for alien comm...while marine comm is heavily dependent on both relatively slow marines and power.
Alternate idea is for newly laid cyst connected to remain at 1/600 health if they are only connected to another unfinished cyst. It doesn't start building until its connected to a finished cyst. This would still allow alien comm to not have to wait, but risks leaving the chain very vulnerable. A gorge could still be needed to quickly secure the chain. This is on top of making the cyst take longer to build, which would require a gorge to be present to speed up the process (and secure vulnerable chains). Im still not sure this is enough though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before and I will say it again, making them entirely free is a bad move, instead they should cost a small amount, to provide the gorge with a continuous p.res sink. (they could still be capped) Just dropping hydras to 5 p.res, clogs to 1 and cysts to 1 would have already been a significant buff to the gorge's relevance in a game. Instead now we have gorges with 100 p.res later in the game, which means an extra onos marines have to deal with. (Despite that gorge having had hydras continuously on the front line all game, impacting the game) I.e lategame ARCs come in and there's nothing left for you to build on, so you go onos and tear them up. It's basically as if marines could buy mines once and then continuously place them per three as long as they stayed alive.
Putting p.res back on these structures would also make recycling them a slower process, i.e you could have the gorge eat them and regain half or more of their p.res, which would also require gorges to physically recycle them, rather than just moving to the next position on the map and plop down all his structures again (ultimate turtling)
Also, upgrades should probably go back to costing p.res, on top of remaining as expensive as they are in terms of T.res currently. But the cost should scale based on the lifeform, and could be lowered for every additional hive. (Or once the shell is matured, or something like that) This way they're a bigger sink early in the game, when they are the most powerful, and on lifeforms on which they matter the most. (On top of providing that much needed extra p.res sink for non-gorge lifeforms)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lower life forms do need more meaningful pres sinks. For all the things the gorge can do now, it definitely needs to cost more than just 10 pres. Aliens get too much for free compared to marines. If I were dev king, I'd make alien evolve and pay PRES for everything outside of their movement skill and basic attack. Default for each life form would of course be priced accordingly, but overall aliens would pay more than they do now for what they can take. For instance I'd make skulks pay 5 pres to take parasite, AND it takes up the upgrade slot for things like carapace. Its a pres sink and it presents a choice of either being a scout or attacker. Bump up effectiveness of parasite since its no longer default and costs res.
I didn't read through the whole thread, so pardon me if Im just repeating something that has already been said, but...
To me it seems the biggest change in the build is the alien spawn time. I didn't play the game on public and can't really comment on that, but we had 3 matches yesterday and the change in the early game was really profound: We tied the first 2 matches (Duplex and HBZ) with both sides winning marines! This was due to us playing skulks the same way we had played in previous builds (which is basically to put as much pressure on the marines as possible).
In the 3rd match we tied vs Arc with both sides winning aliens. The alien game started to go better once we learned to camp and conserve our strength more. If we didn't try to put pressure on marines, we could hang on to our dear 2 res nodes by the skin of our teeth and then turn the game with blinking fades after 10min early survival game. This is basically how it went in both ours and Archaeas alien rounds.
So, I am not all that happy with all the changes in the build, but I think the alien spawn wave is a good change and at least in competative play the most important. It makes the early game easier for marines -> they get upgrades and have fighting chance. The spawn wave should be a bit shorter though, since now the early game is really easy to lose vs an experienced marine team. Maybe 12-15s. 20 seconds allows the marines to get more or less a total map control in the first 8 minutes before fades. Oh and surviving until the blinking fades brings back the old 205 alien domination again, so lets have heavy armour soon ;)
A Gorge that can consume (recycle) its own structures is fitting. Obviously. A really nice sound effect with that too and it would be great. Maybe nom-nom-nom-ish? :) I like that Gorges have a set limit on structures based on the number of Hives, but structures should also cost res. Perhaps cost a bit less to compensate, but still: Why have an extensive and working res system and then remove a huge chunk of it and add something crude and simple like this? It's the wrong direction.
An idea... Hydras could have a lot of armor and less health, and heal spray could heal primarily armor. An un-healed Hydra goes down in no time when the armor is gone, but a healed Hydra stays tough. The Gorge would really have to support the Hydras and stay in the fight, and not just build and forget.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1930504:date=Apr 26 2012, 04:35 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 26 2012, 04:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead now we have gorges with 100 p.res later in the game, which means an extra onos marines have to deal with. (Despite that gorge having had hydras continuously on the front line all game, impacting the game)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, i first thought that it would go like this - and it did. but then i realized, <b>so what,</b> thats how it is for every other class too? whether you stay skulk the whole time, or you stay fade the whole game, you keep accruing pres! As long as you dont die, you <i>should </i>earn pres. The gorge gives that option to be the casual / newcomer style of staying in the back defending safely, <b>or </b> healing frontlines and throwing offensive hydras and choke points. The option to have a laid back gameplay or a skillfull daring gameplay exists. This does not mean its exploiting, its just that gorge's playstyle /strat.
I have seen some very conservative and patient fades that never need to purchase a 2nd in a game. But then people either claim a) OP fade or b) cautious player. they don't typically cry foul that he has 100 pres. I say this merely demonstrates the need for earning Pres instead of it being time based. ;) That is, of course, if you wish to reward a certain gameplay style over another.
I propose that there's really better methods than requiring that <i>singular playable alien class </i>(which is not the sole commander) to spend Pres to use it's abilities - essentially locking you into that role for the game if you were to have any impact/worth. (see above regarding <i>earning </i>pres or pres sinks for all)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I propose that there's really better methods than requiring that singular playable alien class (which is not the sole commander) to spend Pres to use it's abilities - essentially locking you into that role for the game if you were to have any impact/worth. (see above regarding earning pres or pres sinks for all)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fair enough, but then yes all classes need to be given a proper p.res sink indeed. (But what?)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternate idea is for newly laid cyst connected to remain at 1/600 health if they are only connected to another unfinished cyst. It doesn't start building until its connected to a finished cyst. This would still allow alien comm to not have to wait, but risks leaving the chain very vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do like
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For all the things the gorge can do now, it definitely needs to cost more than just 10 pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I definitely agree, 15 - 20 p.res would be a more adequate price. And they should definitely consider buffing its cyst-placing capabilities, so they can help the commander better early. (Allowing him to spend t.res elsewhere)
I havent played the build yet ( weekend is coming though :)
But regarding the "gardener" and the drifter problem. Couldnt you just combine the two ?
Like the alien commander would place some scents on the infestation that would draw the nearest drifter to evolve into the building ? This way you get rid of babysitting drifters and the commander still acts as a gardener and the marines still have a chance to kill the drifters and prevent building.
DghelneshiAims to surpass Fana in post edits.Join Date: 2011-11-01Member: 130634Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1930650:date=Apr 27 2012, 02:53 PM:name=BoBiNoU)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BoBiNoU @ Apr 27 2012, 02:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Like the alien commander would place some scents on the infestation that would draw the nearest drifter to evolve into the building ? This way you get rid of babysitting drifters and the commander still acts as a gardener and the marines still have a chance to kill the drifters and prevent building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This way you couldn't control what path the drifter takes (he may even get stuck on the way), unless you micromanage him, which would be the exact same as before.
I also don't like the 'kill drifters to prevent expansion' mechanic, as it poses huge constraints to map design. No ladders, no elevators, no vents, no chokepoints, etc. You always need alternate paths for drifters to take to make Aliens able to expand, which can be quite frustrating (see ns2_tanith for example).
<!--quoteo(post=1930598:date=Apr 26 2012, 11:02 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 26 2012, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930598"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You know, i first thought that it would go like this - and it did. but then i realized, <b>so what,</b> thats how it is for every other class too? whether you stay skulk the whole time, or you stay fade the whole game, you keep accruing pres! As long as you dont die, you <i>should </i>earn pres. The gorge gives that option to be the casual / newcomer style of staying in the back defending safely, <b>or </b> healing frontlines and throwing offensive hydras and choke points. The option to have a laid back gameplay or a skillfull daring gameplay exists. This does not mean its exploiting, its just that gorge's playstyle /strat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and that is indeed a problem. in ns1 if things don't go well you have to sacrifice fades or even a hive in order to build rts / chambers or whatever you need. you destroyed 2 rts and you knew that you won't see a fade for a long time because the guy supposed to fade had to build a rt
this doesn't happen here. marines take down a harvester or "chambers" but there is literally nothing you can do. just farm recs and spend them in lifeforms.
A lot of QQ coming in from the build, alot of it i dont find justified, a 20 second spawn time isn't that insane when considering alien mobility, and also the fact that it can be your entire team at once, playing abit with the gorge, i can see some use for the clogs,but the main problem is it seems to hinder both your team and the enemy team, making a wall may be helpful, the best use i have created is making a small wall and hiding hydras behind it so marines have trouble simply shooting hydras, yet still denying area with them. Not sure on what to think of the free buildings, its a step somewhere but gorges need a resource dump, and hydras are too good currently.
Personally, i like the changes to onos, the charge is fine and creates a nice area in which flame-throwers can absolutely devastate their fighting capability, lerk changes are bad, i don't know something about them feels off, the spike visuals are better but their playstyle is completely off, and i cant put my finger on it, bile bomb itself isnt the problem, possibly in how bile bomb is used, its too hard to break a sentry fort. Someone mentioned how aliens had their resource towers too vulnerable when they were first built, and i face palmed. For a large portion of ns2 skulks have been ridiculously good at resource tower harassment, and now that frontiersmen have the ability to punish aliens for expansion without defence people step up and start crying, well that should teach you not to defend the resource towers, weren't these decisions made so that the entire alien team wast always on the offence which numerous people stated as being bad?
These are my thoughts on the build and by no means reflect what i probably would feel if i played through mor
i was a frequent alien commander pre-206 but now I'm tempted to race to the hive every game now. i love the drifter changes. no more "OOPS SOMEONE STOOD WHERE THE DRIFTER WAS SUPPOSED TO BUILD". i love surprising friendly gorges with a whip and crag to add to their hydra wall. although in a couple cases the drifter didn't seem to spot buildings that were on a different elevation yet are in plain view.
i must protest over the amplified sound to skulk running. it was already easy enough to hear them, but now a single skulk sounds like a freight train.
<!--quoteo(post=1930658:date=Apr 27 2012, 10:45 AM:name=Pekerman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pekerman @ Apr 27 2012, 10:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and that is indeed a problem. in ns1 if things don't go well you have to sacrifice fades or even a hive in order to build rts / chambers or whatever you need. you destroyed 2 rts and you knew that you won't see a fade for a long time because the guy supposed to fade had to build a rt
this doesn't happen here. marines take down a harvester or "chambers" but there is literally nothing you can do. just farm recs and spend them in lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Was wracking my brain last night trying to think of any method of a good resource sink (<b>no</b>, having abilities cost resources is <b>NOT</b> a good idea) and I came to the same conclusion I came to when people were complaining about Alien's rate of expansion:
It's impossible with the Alien Commander in the game.
There is simply nothing you could ever provide that would become a necessary <b><u>team</b></u> resource sink early in the game that would result in staggered amounts of resources on your team (eg. one person might be saving for Fade, but other people have spent early res). Natural Selection 1 had the upgrade chambers, the RTs, and the second Hive that was a team effort of spending resources on getting those up. In Natural Selection 2 everything has been taken from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander; a role which only one person can fulfill and that the team can not contribute to.
The result is what we have been seeing for the past while; what people have been mistaking as "fast Alien expansion" when they've been complaining about half the Alien team going Fade or Onos. The fact of the matter is that with the entire Alien resource sink being moved away from the team, there is absolutely no reason (and no ability) to spend resources on anything but lifeforms. Even if Gorge structures were made to cost resources again, people have no <b><u>reason</u></b> to actually go Gorge and spend resources on these structures.
I mean I love the concept behind the Alien Commander. It seems that the development team and a good chunk of the community are invested in the idea. The problem still stands though that one of the big balance points of the NS1 Aliens has been transferred from the team to a sole individual player.
I think you can best see this right now if you compare the resource sink to the Alien Commander role. In Natural Selection 1 this resource sink happened at the start of the game and generally lasted up until the completion of the second hive and the second set of upgrade chambers. At that point the Alien team had reached the pinnacle of their map control, all important buildings had been dropped, and anything lost or taken from that point on was part of a give and take battle with Marines. In Natural Selection 2 the Alien Commander is most active at the start of the game up until the completion of the second hive, augmentations, and upgrades. It tends to depend on whether or not the Marine team has secured a hive or has decided to turtle, but the game generally reaches a point after the early game where Alien Commanders lack anything to do. At this point you see a lot of them hop out of the hive to go help against the Marine team because they have nothing left to do.
So the point I'm trying to make here is that the Alien Commander is essentially the NS1 resource sink incarnate. The entire resource sink has been shoved onto the Alien Commander and the Alien Commander's only use is in fulfilling the builder role that was original part of the team dynamic.
After saying all that though, I have no magic idea to present to fix the problem. The problem is clear as is the source of the problem. The easiest and most forward solution is obviously to remove the Alien Commander and return the role to the Gorge and team, but I imagine the community and the development team is so invested in the idea that another solution is required. I'm sure myself and others who recognize the problem will continue to try and think of some solution that fits within the limits of the current game, but in the end it's up to the development team to fix said problem and I do have faith that they will be able to.
<!--quoteo(post=1930518:date=Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM:name=ixnay)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ixnay @ Apr 26 2012, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930518"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i also could not find a med or ammo button. that is the worst part of this, if its not there its simple. if it is, i cant see it in bindings. marines need the comm to jump to those alerts, and all i could do is stop and have to type it. again this could be me just not finding the button but i could not see it in bindings, if it is, help greatly received. if not, simplest and most basic and powerful tool for marines is med and ammo request.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Med and ammo requests are still essential to life as a marine, that's why they have their own radio menu under the Z key. (X key is for radio between squadmates, IIRC).
<!--quoteo(post=1930653:date=Apr 27 2012, 02:11 PM:name=Dghelneshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dghelneshi @ Apr 27 2012, 02:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This way you couldn't control what path the drifter takes (he may even get stuck on the way), unless you micromanage him, which would be the exact same as before.
I also don't like the 'kill drifters to prevent expansion' mechanic, as it poses huge constraints to map design. No ladders, no elevators, no vents, no chokepoints, etc. You always need alternate paths for drifters to take to make Aliens able to expand, which can be quite frustrating (see ns2_tanith for example).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would of course imply that pathfinding is perfect.
Killing drifters to prevent expansion seems logical to me, Marines drop building that needs to be built ( duh ) either by a player or a MAC ( which can be killed on its way there ). In NS1 players were building themselves meaning that if you were killing them on their way there, that would delay the expansion.
You can abuse spawning from infestation easily and take "control" of a room without even sending one player there ( assuming no marine is there of course )
Comments
The gorge should now get full cysts instead of mini-ones, so a gorge laying a path of cysts to an extractor is a viable alternative to the comm having to waste 10 t.res on that.
(You need quite a few more mini-cysts than you do comm ones, so currently it's usually not worth it, not to mention that if the gorge then accidentally recycles one of his cyst he breaks the cyst chain)
I don't agree with unbuilt cyst chains being a bad thing, AFAIK it's not a bug, last patch I found it annoying that I had to wait for cysts to grow before I could place the next. It just felt unintuitive and slows you down for no real reason.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making gorge structure free I think is the correct direction, but it needs tweaking<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've said it before and I will say it again, making them entirely free is a bad move, instead they should cost a small amount, to provide the gorge with a continuous p.res sink. (they could still be capped) Just dropping hydras to 5 p.res, clogs to 1 and cysts to 1 would have already been a significant buff to the gorge's relevance in a game. Instead now we have gorges with 100 p.res later in the game, which means an extra onos marines have to deal with. (Despite that gorge having had hydras continuously on the front line all game, impacting the game) I.e lategame ARCs come in and there's nothing left for you to build on, so you go onos and tear them up. It's basically as if marines could buy mines once and then continuously place them per three as long as they stayed alive.
Putting p.res back on these structures would also make recycling them a slower process, i.e you could have the gorge eat them and regain half or more of their p.res, which would also require gorges to physically recycle them, rather than just moving to the next position on the map and plop down all his structures again (ultimate turtling)
Also, upgrades should probably go back to costing p.res, on top of remaining as expensive as they are in terms of T.res currently. But the cost should scale based on the lifeform, and could be lowered for every additional hive. (Or once the shell is matured, or something like that) This way they're a bigger sink early in the game, when they are the most powerful, and on lifeforms on which they matter the most. (On top of providing that much needed extra p.res sink for non-gorge lifeforms)
I think that if spending team res on cysts was more prohibitive, gorges erecting makeshift outposts are res nodes would be more common, and these outposts would require more attention from skulks early game. Even if the gorge put up his 3 hydras, all the marines would need to do is rush and kill the gorge, and the entire outpost would go down.
I know people don't like the mention of energy, but making comm cysts energy based again would accomplish this nicely I think. At the moment energy is a no brainer, as it always goes to misting. If the hive started with say, 150 energy, with cysts costing 25 energy and mist costing 50 energy, I think comms would rely on gorges to a greater degree.
(Then we will truly have an ecomomy-aggression trade-off, i.e one less skulk on the frontlines but less t.res on cysts and faster build time, would be perfect)
Just bought and played. 2 games in a row, solo at the start, take out cysts and solo the odd skulk that bothered to come along. Hinders alien expansion so much. No res no win.
You need to let RTs generate their own cyst, it is far too easy to tunnel aliens in
i also could not find a med or ammo button. that is the worst part of this, if its not there its simple. if it is, i cant see it in bindings. marines need the comm to jump to those alerts, and all i could do is stop and have to type it. again this could be me just not finding the button but i could not see it in bindings, if it is, help greatly received. if not, simplest and most basic and powerful tool for marines is med and ammo request.
If they know the spawn timings this is not hard to do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why is that a bad thing?
Just bought and played. 2 games in a row, solo at the start, take out cysts and solo the odd skulk that bothered to come along. Hinders alien expansion so much. No res no win.
You need to let RTs generate their own cyst, it is far too easy to tunnel aliens in
i also could not find a med or ammo button. that is the worst part of this, if its not there its simple. if it is, i cant see it in bindings. marines need the comm to jump to those alerts, and all i could do is stop and have to type it. again this could be me just not finding the button but i could not see it in bindings, if it is, help greatly received. if not, simplest and most basic and powerful tool for marines is med and ammo request.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
x->2/3 i think are the default binds.
Charlie, we all love your game. It's fantastic, and I mean that from my heart. The problem is that many NS players are very intelligent people (Not your average beer guzzling, FPS stoner kid). I have seen so much bandaiding on this game. What I mean is that there are issues you guys know about and think you can hide with clever little things. Us smart people see it and it makes us question you. It detracts from the quality of this game and makes me wonder how much more is being bandaided behind the scenes. I myself have found bugs and thought of easy solutions to fix them... yet it never happens. I know other people like Dragon who have actually posted the exact code needed to fix a bug... but it hasn't been done. You guys are ignoring the principle concept of making a stellar title. Everything needs to be solid... once it is... add more. It seems like all you guys care about is rushing things to get this game done... well that doesn't make a good game.
The community is here to help you guys. A lot of peoples ideas are bad... a lot are good. You guys are smart enough to know when somebody is conveying a real idea.
I am losing a lot of faith in you guys... not as game makers but as businessmen. I know you guys can make a game... that is apparent... but you guys haven't followed through on making it sellable. This game will never amount to anything with the current state of performance and potential for competitive play. I know you guys are working on it, and I have seen improvements. Often when I see improvements though, you guys add some new features that completely counter-act your optimizing (Like adding incentive to have spam fests on a server).
I want you guys to take notice that the most vocal and biggest contributers to this games community are the competitive teams. How can I claim this? Well for one we own all the hosted servers in this game. Every server in this game is hosted by a competitive team with the exception of a few. We all first saw the potential of this game... we looked past the bugs and performance and bought servers anyway. We made it possible for people to actually play your game. We dump our hard earned money every month to support your game so it can be played. Sure that money may not be going into your pockets directly but we are still making it possible for your game to be played. Many of us have already thrown hundreds of dollars into this game and our opinions are still overlooked. We take the game seriously and follow it more closely than anybody... yet our opinions and ideas are often the most overlooked. If you want this game to be successful you will need to start listening to the competitive players and what they have to say about this game. This game absolutely needs to be balanced for competition. That is the way to market this game. The pretty graphics and concepts may draw people in at first but they won't stay if the game is dumbed down to the point that it is currently. I mean I honestly barely ever play BF3... great graphics and optimization but terrible gameplay that will NEVER be competitive or rewarding. Get more playtestes who play competitively. Get more intelligent people who really know what makes a game great on the inside. It's great to have a bunch of laidbacks guys to test out your product giving their average opinion... but what will make this game shine is taking the advice from the players who strive for excellence in gaming.
Drifter 2.0 is great, but I really don't like the changes to lerk speed and onos charge (I find the "angry" thing just plain bewildering). I recognize that the Lerk domination of 205 needed to be fixed, but nerfing his speed is the last way in the world I would've done it.
I was also really excited about the new gorge when I first heard the plans for it, but now I'm not so sure. I hadn't considered the fact that losing a hydra now has no consequence. The game now rewards aggressively placed hydras more so than cleverly placed hydras. I don't understand clogs at all. They go down so easily and take so long to build into a useful structure. It pretty much takes all 10 of your opening clogs to block a doorway, and it seems like a marine can just axe a hole in it as much time as you took building it. I'd like them a lot better if they were much bigger, much tougher and you got far fewer of them.
When going gorge in 206, I immediately feel sort of overwhelmed with the fact that I can build everything right away, and feel like I ought to hurry up and do so to be optimally effective. Waiting for res as a gorge prior to this release certainly was boring, but there was at least a steady sense of planning and progress. I'm not saying "revert it" necessarily, but I think I prefer it to the current implementation of gorge 2.0.
Also, compared to other patches, this one came out with a ton of features and not much polish. The structures don't expire when gorge goes skulk yet (which is obviously crucial to making the ability not broken), the placeholder effect for camo drifter looks like a glitch, the friendly fire on gorge structures seems weird and out of place, the icon for clogs doesn't look much different between when you can and can't build them, there's a horrible glitch with your mouse sensitivity turning to molasses sometimes after dying as an Onos. I feel more like a tester and less like a player this time around, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
As an NS2 beta tester, I'm glad you guys are cranking out a lot of features at once, and I'm sure you're getting a lot of good feedback and statistics to inform future decisions from just one build.
As an NS2 player I kinda wish drifter 2.0 had been the only change with this patch, along with maybe removing weldlock and somehow nerfing the stackability of BB.
I still have an open mind about gorge 2.0 and am interested to see how it appears and functions in future builds, but I'm going to be a sad guy if slow lerk and manually charging "angry" onos don't go away in a few builds.
Ah well, I still have faith in you guys. Looking forward to seeing how design decisions for the next build play out!
After the change, Onos aren't worth the 75 res unless your team is committing to a final push. A single marine can easily kite the Onos now, and Gods forbid JP's or Flamethrowers coming out.
I completely agree that nerfing the Lerk's speed was the wrong way to go. What most people were complaining about was that half the Alien team could go Lerk and start bile bombing the marine base with all of the bile bomb's stacking. The least that could have been done is going half-way; allow your own bile bombs to stack but disallow other player's bile bombs to stack on yours. As it stands it's become too dangerous to try gassing as a Lerk because you've lost your only defense when flying in that close to Marines.
This is still the part that's wrong with the lerk. It's responsible for the vast majority of the problems with the class.
Well maybe spores shouldn't require it =P
The gorge should now get full cysts instead of mini-ones, so a gorge laying a path of cysts to an extractor is a viable alternative to the comm having to waste 10 t.res on that.
(You need quite a few more mini-cysts than you do comm ones, so currently it's usually not worth it, not to mention that if the gorge then accidentally recycles one of his cyst he breaks the cyst chain)
I don't agree with unbuilt cyst chains being a bad thing, AFAIK it's not a bug, last patch I found it annoying that I had to wait for cysts to grow before I could place the next. It just felt unintuitive and slows you down for no real reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree its a bit annoying to wait for the cysts to form before continuing. However, the problem with alien's current faceroll expansion is no longer needing to wait for drifters (or pay for them for that matter) or wait for cysts to finish building. Its also an issue later on when alien comm can just rapidly spam them forward and all over the place. Without drifters there are no longer any speed bumps for alien comm...while marine comm is heavily dependent on both relatively slow marines and power.
Alternate idea is for newly laid cyst connected to remain at 1/600 health if they are only connected to another unfinished cyst. It doesn't start building until its connected to a finished cyst. This would still allow alien comm to not have to wait, but risks leaving the chain very vulnerable. A gorge could still be needed to quickly secure the chain. This is on top of making the cyst take longer to build, which would require a gorge to be present to speed up the process (and secure vulnerable chains). Im still not sure this is enough though.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've said it before and I will say it again, making them entirely free is a bad move, instead they should cost a small amount, to provide the gorge with a continuous p.res sink. (they could still be capped) Just dropping hydras to 5 p.res, clogs to 1 and cysts to 1 would have already been a significant buff to the gorge's relevance in a game. Instead now we have gorges with 100 p.res later in the game, which means an extra onos marines have to deal with. (Despite that gorge having had hydras continuously on the front line all game, impacting the game) I.e lategame ARCs come in and there's nothing left for you to build on, so you go onos and tear them up. It's basically as if marines could buy mines once and then continuously place them per three as long as they stayed alive.
Putting p.res back on these structures would also make recycling them a slower process, i.e you could have the gorge eat them and regain half or more of their p.res, which would also require gorges to physically recycle them, rather than just moving to the next position on the map and plop down all his structures again (ultimate turtling)
Also, upgrades should probably go back to costing p.res, on top of remaining as expensive as they are in terms of T.res currently. But the cost should scale based on the lifeform, and could be lowered for every additional hive. (Or once the shell is matured, or something like that) This way they're a bigger sink early in the game, when they are the most powerful, and on lifeforms on which they matter the most. (On top of providing that much needed extra p.res sink for non-gorge lifeforms)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lower life forms do need more meaningful pres sinks. For all the things the gorge can do now, it definitely needs to cost more than just 10 pres. Aliens get too much for free compared to marines. If I were dev king, I'd make alien evolve and pay PRES for everything outside of their movement skill and basic attack. Default for each life form would of course be priced accordingly, but overall aliens would pay more than they do now for what they can take. For instance I'd make skulks pay 5 pres to take parasite, AND it takes up the upgrade slot for things like carapace. Its a pres sink and it presents a choice of either being a scout or attacker. Bump up effectiveness of parasite since its no longer default and costs res.
To me it seems the biggest change in the build is the alien spawn time. I didn't play the game on public and can't really comment on that, but we had 3 matches yesterday and the change in the early game was really profound: We tied the first 2 matches (Duplex and HBZ) with both sides winning marines! This was due to us playing skulks the same way we had played in previous builds (which is basically to put as much pressure on the marines as possible).
In the 3rd match we tied vs Arc with both sides winning aliens. The alien game started to go better once we learned to camp and conserve our strength more. If we didn't try to put pressure on marines, we could hang on to our dear 2 res nodes by the skin of our teeth and then turn the game with blinking fades after 10min early survival game. This is basically how it went in both ours and Archaeas alien rounds.
So, I am not all that happy with all the changes in the build, but I think the alien spawn wave is a good change and at least in competative play the most important. It makes the early game easier for marines -> they get upgrades and have fighting chance. The spawn wave should be a bit shorter though, since now the early game is really easy to lose vs an experienced marine team. Maybe 12-15s. 20 seconds allows the marines to get more or less a total map control in the first 8 minutes before fades. Oh and surviving until the blinking fades brings back the old 205 alien domination again, so lets have heavy armour soon ;)
An idea... Hydras could have a lot of armor and less health, and heal spray could heal primarily armor. An un-healed Hydra goes down in no time when the armor is gone, but a healed Hydra stays tough. The Gorge would really have to support the Hydras and stay in the fight, and not just build and forget.
You know, i first thought that it would go like this - and it did. but then i realized, <b>so what,</b> thats how it is for every other class too? whether you stay skulk the whole time, or you stay fade the whole game, you keep accruing pres! As long as you dont die, you <i>should </i>earn pres. The gorge gives that option to be the casual / newcomer style of staying in the back defending safely, <b>or </b> healing frontlines and throwing offensive hydras and choke points. The option to have a laid back gameplay or a skillfull daring gameplay exists. This does not mean its exploiting, its just that gorge's playstyle /strat.
I have seen some very conservative and patient fades that never need to purchase a 2nd in a game. But then people either claim a) OP fade or b) cautious player. they don't typically cry foul that he has 100 pres.
I say this merely demonstrates the need for earning Pres instead of it being time based. ;)
That is, of course, if you wish to reward a certain gameplay style over another.
I propose that there's really better methods than requiring that <i>singular playable alien class </i>(which is not the sole commander) to spend Pres to use it's abilities - essentially locking you into that role for the game if you were to have any impact/worth. (see above regarding <i>earning </i>pres or pres sinks for all)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternate idea is for newly laid cyst connected to remain at 1/600 health if they are only connected to another unfinished cyst. It doesn't start building until its connected to a finished cyst. This would still allow alien comm to not have to wait, but risks leaving the chain very vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do like
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For all the things the gorge can do now, it definitely needs to cost more than just 10 pres.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely agree, 15 - 20 p.res would be a more adequate price. And they should definitely consider buffing its cyst-placing capabilities, so they can help the commander better early. (Allowing him to spend t.res elsewhere)
But regarding the "gardener" and the drifter problem.
Couldnt you just combine the two ?
Like the alien commander would place some scents on the infestation that would draw the nearest drifter to evolve into the building ?
This way you get rid of babysitting drifters and the commander still acts as a gardener and the marines still have a chance to kill the drifters and prevent building.
This way you get rid of babysitting drifters and the commander still acts as a gardener and the marines still have a chance to kill the drifters and prevent building.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This way you couldn't control what path the drifter takes (he may even get stuck on the way), unless you micromanage him, which would be the exact same as before.
I also don't like the 'kill drifters to prevent expansion' mechanic, as it poses huge constraints to map design. No ladders, no elevators, no vents, no chokepoints, etc. You always need alternate paths for drifters to take to make Aliens able to expand, which can be quite frustrating (see ns2_tanith for example).
and that is indeed a problem. in ns1 if things don't go well you have to sacrifice fades or even a hive in order to build rts / chambers or whatever you need.
you destroyed 2 rts and you knew that you won't see a fade for a long time because the guy supposed to fade had to build a rt
this doesn't happen here. marines take down a harvester or "chambers" but there is literally nothing you can do. just farm recs and spend them in lifeforms.
Personally, i like the changes to onos, the charge is fine and creates a nice area in which flame-throwers can absolutely devastate their fighting capability, lerk changes are bad, i don't know something about them feels off, the spike visuals are better but their playstyle is completely off, and i cant put my finger on it, bile bomb itself isnt the problem, possibly in how bile bomb is used, its too hard to break a sentry fort. Someone mentioned how aliens had their resource towers too vulnerable when they were first built, and i face palmed. For a large portion of ns2 skulks have been ridiculously good at resource tower harassment, and now that frontiersmen have the ability to punish aliens for expansion without defence people step up and start crying, well that should teach you not to defend the resource towers, weren't these decisions made so that the entire alien team wast always on the offence which numerous people stated as being bad?
These are my thoughts on the build and by no means reflect what i probably would feel if i played through mor
i must protest over the amplified sound to skulk running. it was already easy enough to hear them, but now a single skulk sounds like a freight train.
The other changes... well I'm not sure about the gorge one tbh, but the rest seems fine.
you destroyed 2 rts and you knew that you won't see a fade for a long time because the guy supposed to fade had to build a rt
this doesn't happen here. marines take down a harvester or "chambers" but there is literally nothing you can do. just farm recs and spend them in lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed.
Was wracking my brain last night trying to think of any method of a good resource sink (<b>no</b>, having abilities cost resources is <b>NOT</b> a good idea) and I came to the same conclusion I came to when people were complaining about Alien's rate of expansion:
It's impossible with the Alien Commander in the game.
There is simply nothing you could ever provide that would become a necessary <b><u>team</b></u> resource sink early in the game that would result in staggered amounts of resources on your team (eg. one person might be saving for Fade, but other people have spent early res). Natural Selection 1 had the upgrade chambers, the RTs, and the second Hive that was a team effort of spending resources on getting those up. In Natural Selection 2 everything has been taken from the team and shoved onto the Alien Commander; a role which only one person can fulfill and that the team can not contribute to.
The result is what we have been seeing for the past while; what people have been mistaking as "fast Alien expansion" when they've been complaining about half the Alien team going Fade or Onos. The fact of the matter is that with the entire Alien resource sink being moved away from the team, there is absolutely no reason (and no ability) to spend resources on anything but lifeforms. Even if Gorge structures were made to cost resources again, people have no <b><u>reason</u></b> to actually go Gorge and spend resources on these structures.
I mean I love the concept behind the Alien Commander. It seems that the development team and a good chunk of the community are invested in the idea. The problem still stands though that one of the big balance points of the NS1 Aliens has been transferred from the team to a sole individual player.
I think you can best see this right now if you compare the resource sink to the Alien Commander role. In Natural Selection 1 this resource sink happened at the start of the game and generally lasted up until the completion of the second hive and the second set of upgrade chambers. At that point the Alien team had reached the pinnacle of their map control, all important buildings had been dropped, and anything lost or taken from that point on was part of a give and take battle with Marines. In Natural Selection 2 the Alien Commander is most active at the start of the game up until the completion of the second hive, augmentations, and upgrades. It tends to depend on whether or not the Marine team has secured a hive or has decided to turtle, but the game generally reaches a point after the early game where Alien Commanders lack anything to do. At this point you see a lot of them hop out of the hive to go help against the Marine team because they have nothing left to do.
So the point I'm trying to make here is that the Alien Commander is essentially the NS1 resource sink incarnate. The entire resource sink has been shoved onto the Alien Commander and the Alien Commander's only use is in fulfilling the builder role that was original part of the team dynamic.
After saying all that though, I have no magic idea to present to fix the problem. The problem is clear as is the source of the problem. The easiest and most forward solution is obviously to remove the Alien Commander and return the role to the Gorge and team, but I imagine the community and the development team is so invested in the idea that another solution is required. I'm sure myself and others who recognize the problem will continue to try and think of some solution that fits within the limits of the current game, but in the end it's up to the development team to fix said problem and I do have faith that they will be able to.
Med and ammo requests are still essential to life as a marine, that's why they have their own radio menu under the Z key. (X key is for radio between squadmates, IIRC).
I also don't like the 'kill drifters to prevent expansion' mechanic, as it poses huge constraints to map design. No ladders, no elevators, no vents, no chokepoints, etc. You always need alternate paths for drifters to take to make Aliens able to expand, which can be quite frustrating (see ns2_tanith for example).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would of course imply that pathfinding is perfect.
Killing drifters to prevent expansion seems logical to me, Marines drop building that needs to be built ( duh ) either by a player or a MAC ( which can be killed on its way there ).
In NS1 players were building themselves meaning that if you were killing them on their way there, that would delay the expansion.
You can abuse spawning from infestation easily and take "control" of a room without even sending one player there ( assuming no marine is there of course )