The only thing I don't like about summit is that it's sometimes annoying that you can't shoot around props, because of invisible lolwalls. Although that's probably not something you can do anything about, psyk0. For example shooting around the middle pillar in Reactor, or past the pipes near the ceiling, is impossible if you aim close past, and frustrating.
Other than that, quite fun and entertaining map. Now that there are cysts though, it'll be interesting to see how that affects future map designs. With the line of sight stuff and all. The first cysts next to the hive need to be pretty close for them to work in summit.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crevice and Crossroads really need functioning power nodes. Marines have to put power packs everywhere to hold those areas, which is a little unfair, especially to cap the res node. Having said that, many of the corridors should remain unpowered by default (e.g. the corridor from Generator to Surface Access, etc).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think crevice needs to since it doesn't have a tech point. I would definitely support giving crossroads a power node though. It seems aliens don't try to expand there very often and usually go for surface or heli after that for hives. Adding a power node in crossroads may change that (and that area with red\dark lighting would look awesome).
<!--quoteo(post=1860373:date=Jul 13 2011, 03:02 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 13 2011, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860373"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only thing I don't like about summit is that it's sometimes annoying that you can't shoot around props, because of invisible lolwalls. Although that's probably not something you can do anything about, psyk0. For example shooting around the middle pillar in Reactor, or past the pipes near the ceiling, is impossible if you aim close past, and frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Really annoying being able to see a skulk but then hitting an invisible wall instead.
I just wanted to report a really bad bug, we did confirm in a game today that indeed all aditional comm chairs do get attack warnings, its just the main one that doesnt notify. So we lost a clan scrim because of this.
EDIT: Not only sounds are messed up, from comm view aliens are invisible, even in fully built marine start [except near power nodes]. I thought it's well known. And it makes commanding much harder; they can eat your entire base and you not gonna know.
I just want to say that this is the best thought out map I've ever played when it comes to skulking -- you've done a really fantastic job making each room viable for ambush-style gameplay.
Have you given any thought to balancing the desirability/defendability of heliport vs. surface access? SA is clearly a superior defensive position for the aliens due to the ramp, while heliport is both farther and leaves the hive wide open from the hallway.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks, that's probably because I spent endless hours walking my map, all locations and new additions as skulk to check out how it plays after creating all those hiding/ambush spots.
Regarding heliport I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that it is that rarely used despite that vent covering the marine entrance to it. I always considered it the risky, offensive option for aliens to expand to, but with balance changes these things change aswell.
Imagine in the future aliens can maybe teleport to the building hive like in ns1 and have more means to fend off marines at that entrance. In case marines need or are supposed to expand with future additions to gameplay, there needs to be a location better suited for them.
If I recall correctly all the layouts in the mapping guidelines go for a rather easy first expansion location for both teams and I've already stepped out of line on purpose with my map, because I think it's boring to always fight the same way about the first expansions. Unfortunately that's how summit currently plays afaik, but there are a lot of things that can be changed once the gameplay is more established.
<!--quoteo(post=1861553:date=Jul 19 2011, 08:36 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jul 19 2011, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Regarding heliport I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that it is that rarely used despite that vent covering the marine entrance to it. I always considered it the risky, offensive option for aliens to expand to, but with balance changes these things change aswell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like skulking at heliport, it's a good location for a hive. but semi-awake marines will spot you when you try to use the vent to get around them, it's still good for flanking when they have entered the room.
the main issue is that the hive is visible directly from the door. so you can easily lob grenades/arc it from the (usually turret infested corridor) and not have to enter the room.
the arcs are fine, that's how they are supposed to work. but It could use some sort of cover to protect it from fire and force the marines to enter the room.
heliport is fine, could use some improvements but overall fine. SA is simply just better.
xroads is my favorite spot to drop a hive on this map... as long as it actually works. no one ever expects it. i've played a few games where i've dropped a hive there and never even said a word to my team about it until i gave the order to start evolving to fade
As already Taxen0 said, the hive is way visible from the heliport entrance. Another problem is that heliport is way, way too open otherwise as well. A good marine with a pistol can take out all the skulks with ease, as it's only 3 hits for a kill.
<!--quoteo(post=1861991:date=Jul 20 2011, 11:07 PM:name=Skie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Skie @ Jul 20 2011, 11:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861991"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As already Taxen0 said, the hive is way visible from the heliport entrance. Another problem is that heliport is way, way too open otherwise as well. A good marine with a pistol can take out all the skulks with ease, as it's only 3 hits for a kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Won't let me edit my post... I'd like to add, that it would be cool to have some ledges in heliport near the ceiling, so gorges can put some hydras up there, and lerks can sit comfortably on the rafts, instead of having to be vulnerably on the floor. Just like there's in cross, alien main and SA.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
That pit in crossroads is a pain to put it kindly. I've died countless times as fade/skulk accidentally getting stuck, or blinking over it. Recommend removing it altogether and replacing it with some other, more fluid design. Crevice is the exception concerning pits since its wide open, and hard to miss.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Could you include a default starting IP for marine start, like tram and rockdown? I've been in several matches in which the first marines who spawn don't know how comm/build an IP. It leads to either a quick loss or an unsatisfying win.
In front of the powernode in heliport (just a bit to the north), there is a bench next to something like a vending machine. I jumped on the bench to jump on to that other thing, and got stuck in between the two ><
Really like the under floor vents outside heliport.
One bug, at the entrance to the vent in the roof outside heliport (coming in from crevice), if an alien evolves there (above ground) the egg will fall down through the map and land on the floor.
<!--quoteo(post=1862201:date=Jul 21 2011, 07:04 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 21 2011, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1862201"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you include a default starting IP for marine start, like tram and rockdown? I've been in several matches in which the first marines who spawn don't know how comm/build an IP. It leads to either a quick loss or an unsatisfying win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please do not, there are comms that actually think their building placement.
Just bear with it, new game new players. I find the prolonged rounds far more annoying than some quick winnies.
Hey psykoman, just wanted to say, I really enjoy your map, gives me so much things to do and try. Not sure if you'd care, but should check out the fun I have. lol
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/Anecm" target="_blank">My Youtube Channel</a> I have a lot of fun with leaping on your map. Keep it up :D
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Like the new changes. The changes in Surface Access (now datacore) are great. That other alcove finally sees some action.
I'd still like to see the wall extended in front of the catwalk from the door into crossroads. Marines should at least need to get closer to the hive to be able to shoot it. Datacore remains the only real option for an alien second hive. Heliport and crossroads have too many long lines of sight for marines.
I really like the changes in 184 to your map, it has gotten a lot better since the first time I played it! I have to agree that Heli and Cross roads are very hard for Aliens to hold hives in, far easier for marines to take. The long lines of sight make it so damn hard to be able to protect the hives. I really think you should add some new geometry to the ability for Kharaa to hold the hives for a longer amount of time.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks guys. All the support, suggestions and feedback from UWE and the internal playtesters really help to improve the map. In addition all the valuable annotations, thanks for that to everyone involved (not the hello/test guys :p).
There are still some changed to be made to the heliport area, which hopefully makes it more attractive for aliens.
Regarding crossroads I'd like to leave that open view for now, because that corridor is already way too long anyway and players need some view on the center area to help orientation in the map (landmark). I'm still hoping that marines can't just snipe down hives eventually due to balance changes and more established gameplay. Some more spread on the lmg, better healing capabilities by aliens and you already force marines to actually approach the hive area to take out crags and healing gorges. I can still change things, if it doesn't work out in the more finalized gameplay, so I'll keep it in mind.
Could you put more egg spawning locations around alien start? Behind the bar, and on the eastern side would be good. It's too easy for marines to snipe the eggs on the western side as they come in from crevice.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1868546:date=Aug 12 2011, 07:35 AM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Aug 12 2011, 07:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1868546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could you put more egg spawning locations around alien start? Behind the bar, and on the eastern side would be good. It's too easy for marines to snipe the eggs on the western side as they come in from crevice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good idea. I don't know how the egg spawning algorithm works, but it seems like a new egg spawns in that one spot closest to the hive a good 95% of the time. Makes it very easy to spawn camp and shoot at the hive at the same time.
I also have a proposal. First. Awesome map. But currently in the most games Crossroads is more or less ignored from both teams. How about creating a double resource spot in Crossroads. This would increase the diversity of tactics.
Yea I saw that proposed in other threads. The xroad hive changes in recent builds were great but I don't think a hive point there adds much to gameplay.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I'll see what I can do about the egg spawns. There are plenty, so the only thing I can do is moving some of the more vulnerable ones to better spots.
Nothing has changed with the stairs, but apparently with player collision as you can see on a few other occasions aswell and not only in Summit. Maybe some sideeffect from addressing that crouch jump exploit in rock walls, but I'm just guessing. I'm sure one of the coders will look into it eventually.
Crossroads hive makes less sense at the moment, because Marines aren't forced to get close to the hive to bring it down (no/weak crag/gorge heal, low lmg spread, high range grenades, etc.), because there is no high tier endgame tech in the game yet and because of the current door gameplay mechanics. Removing that tech point will result in Marines locking down one tech point to deny hive 3 tech and outtech Aliens.
Changing it into a dbl res will result in complaints like -Location is too open to be useful for Aliens -Marines need 2 powerpacks for 2 nodes Adding a power node will result in Marines always locking down the location, because of 2 nodes and faster access to a lot of areas.
It's not like that suggestion is off the table. Depending on how NS2 gameplay evolves I can imagine this working out and playing similar to ns_veil, but for now I'd like to see how other maps with different layouts play out and influence NS2 gameplay, before there are big changes to be made to the map.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1870321:date=Aug 21 2011, 01:32 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Aug 21 2011, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870321"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'll see what I can do about the egg spawns. There are plenty, so the only thing I can do is moving some of the more vulnerable ones to better spots.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But it seems the 3 eggs that spawn are on that one railing all in a row 90% of the time. No your fault I'm sure, as I know eggs occasionally spawn elsewhere, but it's rare. If all eggs are destroyed, a new one spawns in the same spot 90% of the time. It happens to be right next to the hive, making spawn camping incredibly easy for just 1 marine.
<!--quoteo(post=1870592:date=Aug 22 2011, 03:09 PM:name=Quovatis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quovatis @ Aug 22 2011, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1870592"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But it seems the 3 eggs that spawn are on that one railing all in a row 90% of the time. No your fault I'm sure, as I know eggs occasionally spawn elsewhere, but it's rare. If all eggs are destroyed, a new one spawns in the same spot 90% of the time. It happens to be right next to the hive, making spawn camping incredibly easy for just 1 marine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think the spawning should take place everywhere the infestation is touching with a small radius around it. If an egg spawns in the little counter area behind the hive that could be good. they can also spawn down next to the glass windows out of sight from the Marines.
There's a spot on either side of alien start where you can clip through the wall (<a href="http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/3028/asclip.jpg" target="_blank">link to small img</a>)
Comments
For example shooting around the middle pillar in Reactor, or past the pipes near the ceiling, is impossible if you aim close past, and frustrating.
Other than that, quite fun and entertaining map.
Now that there are cysts though, it'll be interesting to see how that affects future map designs. With the line of sight stuff and all. The first cysts next to the hive need to be pretty close for them to work in summit.
I don't think crevice needs to since it doesn't have a tech point. I would definitely support giving crossroads a power node though. It seems aliens don't try to expand there very often and usually go for surface or heli after that for hives. Adding a power node in crossroads may change that (and that area with red\dark lighting would look awesome).
For example shooting around the middle pillar in Reactor, or past the pipes near the ceiling, is impossible if you aim close past, and frustrating.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. Really annoying being able to see a skulk but then hitting an invisible wall instead.
EDIT: Not only sounds are messed up, from comm view aliens are invisible, even in fully built marine start [except near power nodes]. I thought it's well known. And it makes commanding much harder; they can eat your entire base and you not gonna know.
-.-
Please fix for next patch?
Have you given any thought to balancing the desirability/defendability of heliport vs. surface access? SA is clearly a superior defensive position for the aliens due to the ramp, while heliport is both farther and leaves the hive wide open from the hallway.
Regarding heliport I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that it is that rarely used despite that vent covering the marine entrance to it. I always considered it the risky, offensive option for aliens to expand to, but with balance changes these things change aswell.
Imagine in the future aliens can maybe teleport to the building hive like in ns1 and have more means to fend off marines at that entrance. In case marines need or are supposed to expand with future additions to gameplay, there needs to be a location better suited for them.
If I recall correctly all the layouts in the mapping guidelines go for a rather easy first expansion location for both teams and I've already stepped out of line on purpose with my map, because I think it's boring to always fight the same way about the first expansions. Unfortunately that's how summit currently plays afaik, but there are a lot of things that can be changed once the gameplay is more established.
I like skulking at heliport, it's a good location for a hive. but semi-awake marines will spot you when you try to use the vent to get around them, it's still good for flanking when they have entered the room.
the main issue is that the hive is visible directly from the door. so you can easily lob grenades/arc it from the (usually turret infested corridor) and not have to enter the room.
the arcs are fine, that's how they are supposed to work. but It could use some sort of cover to protect it from fire and force the marines to enter the room.
heliport is fine, could use some improvements but overall fine. SA is simply just better.
Another problem is that heliport is way, way too open otherwise as well. A good marine with a pistol can take out all the skulks with ease, as it's only 3 hits for a kill.
Another problem is that heliport is way, way too open otherwise as well. A good marine with a pistol can take out all the skulks with ease, as it's only 3 hits for a kill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Won't let me edit my post...
I'd like to add, that it would be cool to have some ledges in heliport near the ceiling, so gorges can put some hydras up there, and lerks can sit comfortably on the rafts, instead of having to be vulnerably on the floor. Just like there's in cross, alien main and SA.
Really like the under floor vents outside heliport.
One bug, at the entrance to the vent in the roof outside heliport (coming in from crevice), if an alien evolves there (above ground) the egg will fall down through the map and land on the floor.
Please do not, there are comms that actually think their building placement.
Just bear with it, new game new players. I find the prolonged rounds far more annoying than some quick winnies.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/Anecm" target="_blank">My Youtube Channel</a> I have a lot of fun with leaping on your map. Keep it up :D
I'd still like to see the wall extended in front of the catwalk from the door into crossroads. Marines should at least need to get closer to the hive to be able to shoot it. Datacore remains the only real option for an alien second hive. Heliport and crossroads have too many long lines of sight for marines.
I have to agree that Heli and Cross roads are very hard for Aliens to hold hives in, far easier for marines to take. The long lines of sight make it so damn hard to be able to protect the hives. I really think you should add some new geometry to the ability for Kharaa to hold the hives for a longer amount of time.
All the support, suggestions and feedback from UWE and the internal playtesters really help to improve the map.
In addition all the valuable annotations, thanks for that to everyone involved (not the hello/test guys :p).
There are still some changed to be made to the heliport area, which hopefully makes it more attractive for aliens.
Regarding crossroads I'd like to leave that open view for now, because that corridor is already way too long anyway and players need some view on the center area to help orientation in the map (landmark).
I'm still hoping that marines can't just snipe down hives eventually due to balance changes and more established gameplay.
Some more spread on the lmg, better healing capabilities by aliens and you already force marines to actually approach the hive area to take out crags and healing gorges.
I can still change things, if it doesn't work out in the more finalized gameplay, so I'll keep it in mind.
Good idea. I don't know how the egg spawning algorithm works, but it seems like a new egg spawns in that one spot closest to the hive a good 95% of the time. Makes it very easy to spawn camp and shoot at the hive at the same time.
How about creating a double resource spot in Crossroads. This would increase the diversity of tactics.
Nothing has changed with the stairs, but apparently with player collision as you can see on a few other occasions aswell and not only in Summit. Maybe some sideeffect from addressing that crouch jump exploit in rock walls, but I'm just guessing. I'm sure one of the coders will look into it eventually.
Crossroads hive makes less sense at the moment, because Marines aren't forced to get close to the hive to bring it down (no/weak crag/gorge heal, low lmg spread, high range grenades, etc.), because there is no high tier endgame tech in the game yet and because of the current door gameplay mechanics.
Removing that tech point will result in Marines locking down one tech point to deny hive 3 tech and outtech Aliens.
Changing it into a dbl res will result in complaints like
-Location is too open to be useful for Aliens
-Marines need 2 powerpacks for 2 nodes
Adding a power node will result in Marines always locking down the location, because of 2 nodes and faster access to a lot of areas.
It's not like that suggestion is off the table. Depending on how NS2 gameplay evolves I can imagine this working out and playing similar to ns_veil, but for now I'd like to see how other maps with different layouts play out and influence NS2 gameplay, before there are big changes to be made to the map.
But it seems the 3 eggs that spawn are on that one railing all in a row 90% of the time. No your fault I'm sure, as I know eggs occasionally spawn elsewhere, but it's rare. If all eggs are destroyed, a new one spawns in the same spot 90% of the time. It happens to be right next to the hive, making spawn camping incredibly easy for just 1 marine.
I think the spawning should take place everywhere the infestation is touching with a small radius around it. If an egg spawns in the little counter area behind the hive that could be good. they can also spawn down next to the glass windows out of sight from the Marines.