We played a couple of games against 156 yesterday and in one of them we spawned as alien in old marine start and they spawned as marine in old alien start. Without any planning from our part it ended up in a cc rush, because it's so easy to camp in the vents, to wait for marines to go out and to rush cc. The whole map setup says "rush the cc !!".
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
The whole gameplay says "rush the cc!!" at the moment. And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.
I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself: -why do cc rushes also happen on other maps -why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server) -why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers. Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).
Well, I was really thinking of this particular configuration (aliens in sub and marines in atrium). It's specially bad because the alien team will split on both side, see nobody in flight and dc, go in the vents and meet in atrium to eat the cc. I was a bit surprised how it naturally happened without any specific planing from our part.
I played a lot of game on turtle and we almost never see an early cc rush, and the reason is very simple: it's hard to get to the cc without meeting marines on the way. There is two ways to get to the cc and there is rts on both side (=marines there) and no easy vents to bypass them.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Yes, I agree that the ns_veil setup for marine spawns is working out well, because aliens have no way to bypass marines, but that's also the reason why I brought up the ns_origin example. There is more to it that just an unfortunate layout, although there is no doubt about it that Atrium is especially bad for marines.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1907444:date=Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole gameplay says "rush the cc!!" at the moment. And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true, we had a long period where it was very easy to kill the CC before marines could repair it, making CC rushes incredibly successful. I think with the addition of welders (once people get used to using them) this will become less effective. I also think it is important that maps do not encourage CC rush gameplay either.
<!--quoteo(post=1907444:date=Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself: -why do cc rushes also happen on other maps -why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server) -why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers. Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that a major problem here is the limited range of maps. While CC rushes do happen on other maps it is due to them sharing the same weaknesses. Both summit and tram make it easy for the marines to get far out of base, yet still allow aliens easy access to the marine base without encountering any marines. As has been mentioned it is much more difficult to do this on turtle, so it happens much less frequently. Mineshaft is much better now with fixed spawns, Gap and Drill Repair give a much needed buffer between the marine base and the aliens (with no sneaky vents between them). This makes it much more difficult for aliens to sneak in unnoticed.
I would much rather see the old layout (no sub access vents) version of summit with fixed spawns return. While eventually weldable vents would reduce the problem, it would potentially open up other issues. What if marines could stealth weld the vents shut in the alien areas, this would seriously reduce the options of the alien positions. The old summit was a genuinely fantastic map.
<!--quoteo(post=1907805:date=Feb 28 2012, 12:08 PM:name=Argathor)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Argathor @ Feb 28 2012, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would much rather see the old layout (no sub access vents) version of summit with fixed spawns return. While eventually weldable vents would reduce the problem, it would potentially open up other issues. What if marines could stealth weld the vents shut in the alien areas, this would seriously reduce the options of the alien positions. The old summit was a genuinely fantastic map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree about the random spawns and the vent in sub. A huge problem for marines is when they have to take the crevice rt because it is favoring the aliens alot. If random spawns has to be in the game only make it so marines can spawn in data core and sub . Aliens spawn in flight control or atrium.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1907444:date=Feb 27 2012, 12:42 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 27 2012, 12:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The whole gameplay says "rush the cc!!" at the moment. And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.
I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself: -why do cc rushes also happen on other maps -why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server) -why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers. Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> CC rushes can be a good strategy in alot of situations. For example; marines being too far from base, making a big commitment. But due to the amount of vents near base locations on summit, it is extremely easy to just hide and wait for the marines to attack something, then end the game by killing the CC. Tram is a smaller map, smaller base distances encourage base rushes. This can be seen on summit as well, even though it's a bit larger. And I am not even talking about the close spawns, which makes this problem even worse. It is extremely hard to hold the extractors on summit, because there are so many ways aliens can attack them from. Let me do a typical spawn on summit, compared with veil: On veil, the only way to attack the first two extractor drops, is to either charge headfirst into the large room topo, or attack west skylights, which is a bit easier, due to the vent, and the room being smaller. On summit, you are very vulnerable when building your first nodes. Aliens can flank you from almost every angle, using vents, and other "backdoors". For example, there are vents leading between the closest nodes of the bases, this can be seen in Flight Control and Sub Access. There are vent exits near almost all the extractor points, this needs to be at a minimum if it's near a marine spawn. The door in Maintenance Access is a good way to ambush in ventilation if marines spawn Sub(would never have happened in veil).
The marine starting res locations and their base needs to be a bit marine favoured, currently almost all of summit is alien favoured.
I hate spawning in DC as marines. It's just so cramped, the aliens can be right on top of your base very quickly. Also the com can't even defend the power node or the RT from the chair. I used to celebrate when we got the old marine start spawn, but with the new vents it's very difficult to defend now and very easy for skulks. I hope UWE realize that static spawns really are best for most maps. Making an asymmetrical FPS game with random spawns that is balanced is going to be very difficult. Even with all the gameplay problems before, the old summit was way better. You had to actually think about where you opponent was and try and predict what route they would go. Rushes were seen less because the distance between both spawns was far enough that if one attack failed the enemy team had time to recover.
For me, the only thing random spawns change is they make the first 20 seconds a search for the enemy team. After that, it just transitions into a standard game. Most of the time with 1 side of the map lying empty. I don't know what the goal of having random starts is, but imo it just makes the gameplay worse.
<!--quoteo(post=1928772:date=Apr 23 2012, 02:41 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 23 2012, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hate spawning in DC as marines. It's just so cramped, the aliens can be right on top of your base very quickly. Also the com can't even defend the power node or the RT from the chair. I used to celebrate when we got the old marine start spawn, but with the new vents it's very difficult to defend now and very easy for skulks. I hope UWE realize that static spawns really are best for most maps. Making an asymmetrical FPS game with random spawns that is balanced is going to be very difficult. Even with all the gameplay problems before, the old summit was way better. You had to actually think about where you opponent was and try and predict what route they would go. Rushes were seen less because the distance between both spawns was far enough that if one attack failed the enemy team had time to recover.
For me, the only thing random spawns change is they make the first 20 seconds a search for the enemy team. After that, it just transitions into a standard game. Most of the time with 1 side of the map lying empty. I don't know what the goal of having random starts is, but imo it just makes the gameplay worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> with random starts you can play a map containing of 4 random startingpositions with 20 different possible constellations, so the map never gets boring. I really love this feature!
<!--quoteo(post=1927735:date=Apr 20 2012, 05:16 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 20 2012, 05:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1927735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 with static spawns, the map needs a rework if random spawns is going to work well on it.
Also +1 to removing the vent connecting sub, comb lab and vent area. Its to hard for marines to deal with it and makes their rts/base very vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the vents would be weldable, random spawns wouldn't be that of a big problem
<!--quoteo(post=1928781:date=Apr 23 2012, 02:09 PM:name=Solitario)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Solitario @ Apr 23 2012, 02:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->with random starts you can play a map containing of 4 random startingpositions with 20 different possible constellations, so the map never gets boring. I really love this feature!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not really 20 different possible games though. There are only really 2 different outcomes. Either cross spawns or close spawns. After that the game plays out the same. I don't think the reason maps get boring is because of the same starting locations.
<!--quoteo(post=1928802:date=Apr 23 2012, 04:29 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 23 2012, 04:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's not really 20 different possible games though. There are only really 2 different outcomes. Either cross spawns or close spawns. After that the game plays out the same. I don't think the reason maps get boring is because of the same starting locations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> the map isn't symetric like a four spawning map in SC2, so its 20. some be played similar to others, but still other layout you play on. I like the changing spawn position, no I love them.
different spawn positions are necessary IMHO, the maps get so boring if you start in the same place every time, i'm glad they finally made some change to mineshaft like this
<!--quoteo(post=1928890:date=Apr 23 2012, 10:29 AM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ Apr 23 2012, 10:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->different spawn positions are necessary IMHO, the maps get so boring if you start in the same place every time, i'm glad they finally made some change to mineshaft like this<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To me, NS1 had the perfect system: fixed marine spawns, random alien spawns. Gave that edge of randomness, but still allowed the maps to be designed with the fixed marine spawn in mind.
<!--quoteo(post=1928917:date=Apr 23 2012, 11:46 AM:name=Ryne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ryne @ Apr 23 2012, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1928917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To me, NS1 had the perfect system: fixed marine spawns, random alien spawns. Gave that edge of randomness, but still allowed the maps to be designed with the fixed marine spawn in mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I can understand that, sure. It was only a suggestion.
The whole map setup says "rush the cc !!".
And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.
I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself:
-why do cc rushes also happen on other maps
-why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server)
-why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers.
Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).
I played a lot of game on turtle and we almost never see an early cc rush, and the reason is very simple: it's hard to get to the cc without meeting marines on the way. There is two ways to get to the cc and there is rts on both side (=marines there) and no easy vents to bypass them.
There is more to it that just an unfortunate layout, although there is no doubt about it that Atrium is especially bad for marines.
And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very true, we had a long period where it was very easy to kill the CC before marines could repair it, making CC rushes incredibly successful. I think with the addition of welders (once people get used to using them) this will become less effective. I also think it is important that maps do not encourage CC rush gameplay either.
<!--quoteo(post=1907444:date=Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Feb 27 2012, 11:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907444"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself:
-why do cc rushes also happen on other maps
-why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server)
-why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers.
Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that a major problem here is the limited range of maps. While CC rushes do happen on other maps it is due to them sharing the same weaknesses. Both summit and tram make it easy for the marines to get far out of base, yet still allow aliens easy access to the marine base without encountering any marines. As has been mentioned it is much more difficult to do this on turtle, so it happens much less frequently. Mineshaft is much better now with fixed spawns, Gap and Drill Repair give a much needed buffer between the marine base and the aliens (with no sneaky vents between them). This makes it much more difficult for aliens to sneak in unnoticed.
I would much rather see the old layout (no sub access vents) version of summit with fixed spawns return. While eventually weldable vents would reduce the problem, it would potentially open up other issues. What if marines could stealth weld the vents shut in the alien areas, this would seriously reduce the options of the alien positions. The old summit was a genuinely fantastic map.
+1 I miss old summit.
Also +1 to removing the vent connecting sub, comb lab and vent area. Its to hard for marines to deal with it and makes their rts/base very vulnerable.
A huge problem for marines is when they have to take the crevice rt because it is favoring the aliens alot.
If random spawns has to be in the game only make it so marines can spawn in data core and sub . Aliens spawn in flight control or atrium.
And as long as players are successful with it and thus encouraged to keep going, it will stay in their heads and change how the game is played.
I'm not declining map issues and possible future changes to the map, but you have to ask yourself:
-why do cc rushes also happen on other maps
-why do they even happen on the static spawn version of Tram (happened 3 games in a row to me on that duplex server)
-why did they only rarely occur in NS1 (and then often not game-ending) even on maps that had more than 2 routes or even vents leading near the marine spawn (ns_origin is a good example)?
I think one can draw a few conclusions from all these questions and their answers.
Things won't change as long as players are that successful with early rushes and as long as there isn't a way to close vents at marine spawns or a clear decision that a start location can only work for one team, although it's not easy to make that decision, because gameplay is still evolving and there are still things that can be done to improve the overall situation (like welding vents, e.g.).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CC rushes can be a good strategy in alot of situations. For example; marines being too far from base, making a big commitment.
But due to the amount of vents near base locations on summit, it is extremely easy to just hide and wait for the marines to attack something, then end the game by killing the CC.
Tram is a smaller map, smaller base distances encourage base rushes. This can be seen on summit as well, even though it's a bit larger.
And I am not even talking about the close spawns, which makes this problem even worse.
It is extremely hard to hold the extractors on summit, because there are so many ways aliens can attack them from.
Let me do a typical spawn on summit, compared with veil:
On veil, the only way to attack the first two extractor drops, is to either charge headfirst into the large room topo, or attack west skylights, which is a bit easier, due to the vent, and the room being smaller.
On summit, you are very vulnerable when building your first nodes.
Aliens can flank you from almost every angle, using vents, and other "backdoors".
For example, there are vents leading between the closest nodes of the bases, this can be seen in Flight Control and Sub Access.
There are vent exits near almost all the extractor points, this needs to be at a minimum if it's near a marine spawn.
The door in Maintenance Access is a good way to ambush in ventilation if marines spawn Sub(would never have happened in veil).
The marine starting res locations and their base needs to be a bit marine favoured, currently almost all of summit is alien favoured.
For me, the only thing random spawns change is they make the first 20 seconds a search for the enemy team. After that, it just transitions into a standard game. Most of the time with 1 side of the map lying empty. I don't know what the goal of having random starts is, but imo it just makes the gameplay worse.
For me, the only thing random spawns change is they make the first 20 seconds a search for the enemy team. After that, it just transitions into a standard game. Most of the time with 1 side of the map lying empty. I don't know what the goal of having random starts is, but imo it just makes the gameplay worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
with random starts you can play a map containing of 4 random startingpositions with 20 different possible constellations, so the map never gets boring. I really love this feature!
Also +1 to removing the vent connecting sub, comb lab and vent area. Its to hard for marines to deal with it and makes their rts/base very vulnerable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the vents would be weldable, random spawns wouldn't be that of a big problem
It's not really 20 different possible games though. There are only really 2 different outcomes. Either cross spawns or close spawns. After that the game plays out the same. I don't think the reason maps get boring is because of the same starting locations.
the map isn't symetric like a four spawning map in SC2, so its 20.
some be played similar to others, but still other layout you play on.
I like the changing spawn position, no I love them.
To me, NS1 had the perfect system: fixed marine spawns, random alien spawns. Gave that edge of randomness, but still allowed the maps to be designed with the fixed marine spawn in mind.
+1 static marines random aliens