Whips will use the same waypoints as ARCs. There are definitely issues with ARCs and Whips going through walls and falling out of the map at this point, which we know about. The pathfinding is being worked on as we speak, and improved.
I played a few games on summit yesterday, I was impressed with the quality of your map. I could really hear my inside Lerk shout "I'm freeeeeeeeee !" when flying in crevice. And all those high ceilings... So lovely to hide away from those disgusting bipeds.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Good map, and congrats on beta inclusion! They're a few trouble spots (some power nodes that can't be repaired, areas difficult to egg in due to wall walking stickiness etc...) but overall a solid map.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks guys. I'm still processing what has happened; it went all so fast after the release of the first beta...
It's fun and a great experience working with UWE and there's so much new, juicy content created for my map, I can barely keep up with the mapping :p (you can already see the amazing skybox or the curved pipeline set at Marine Start)
Hey I just did a run through, digging the new skybox.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, or if it is a bug in your map or the game, but the dynamic infestation seems to act odd on summit. I witnessed it spreading out in a line across map sections, and it would look off because it didn't grow up or down, it was just moving along one plane with no proper growth.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
My suggestions from a few hours of 6v6 action:
-Crossroads techpoint needs a power node. It's unfair that the marines have to build a power pack there to use the res node or techpoint.
-Generator power node cannot be repaired
-Ventilation res node area needs to be a bit bigger (the area where the res node sits). It's easy to get stuck on the res node geometry and the railing.
-There's a spot on the stairs in Surface Access between the res node and tech point that marines always get caught on. I had to jump to get past the invisible object, which cost me my life several times.
i fall through the map while evolving in the alien hive.
i´ve taken two screenshots. <a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/2011060900002.jpg/" target="_blank">http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/2011060900002.jpg/</a> <a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/2011060900001.jpg/" target="_blank">http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/2011060900001.jpg/</a>
i was evolving at the same spot where i was born ;) havent move after i broke my egg, so if its a map issue, you should be able to identify my egg location
i evolved into an lerk, so i had the opportunity to all the forbidden places ;)
Playing this great map has not only reminded me what I loved about NS1 so much, but also pointed out some of what Tram is lacking in terms of atmosphere.
Every room and corridor in Tram is a box, and most of them are self-contained. Each room has some unique aesthetic or feel, but nothing other than the theme ties them together. Areas don't flow in and out of each other, they are separated by Corridors (yes, with a capital C). Everything feels controlled in Tram, even compared to Rockdown.
Summit feels like a facility with history and life! Each room has a distinct character, an age (some areas look older than others, hinting that the place was not built in a day) and a story; character that extends even into corridors, and the points where two distinct characters meet take on a life of their own because of this, or are simply unique rooms in themselves. Even corridors appear to have a purpose that contributes to the functionality of the entire compound. Also the variation in size and shape of areas gives the map character; there are wide open spaces, claustrophobic causeways, brightly lit rooms and dark deep cavernous sections alike. The changes in elevation also help the pacing greatly! I don't feel that I'll ever learn every possible location that a Skulk might be hiding in each room, and even if I did, there's so much detail everywhere that it's nearly impossible to keep track of every square foot of the place, and that is delightfully frightening!
Also the 'Power Node in every room' thing tends to alienate all of the areas from each other. It'd provide more cohesion (and just make more sense) if Power Nodes provided power to multiple rooms. But that's for another thread.
I've already dropped an annotation at this spot. This happens on all of the archs at the ceiling... It also blocks your flight as lerk which is really annoying :/ Check "In game annotation system" in this thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112812" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112812</a> for posting any map related bugs
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited June 2011
Thanks for the reports. I've noticed there are a few props with rather vague physics that don't account for concave/convex surfaces. If you scale up these props it might even get worse. That invisible wall is caused by the arch prop called "refinery_tram_tableclamptrack". If you check the physics in the viewer, you can see the problem.
Also, thanks Kuban, that was a beautiful read and I can tell you one thing: That place was not build in one day :D
Exceptionally impressive work, also kudos for the official inclusion into NS.
I've only had 5 - 10 mins to quickly run around your map (and get lost multiple times no less) and there's really not much i could say beyond what everyone else has been ranting about, though the use of curves throughout the level is a unique and very nice look. If there's anywhere that is the most awe inspiring it would have to be the Kharaa hive room, i did a little jog through the map when you first released the map and then the other day when it was officially included into NS, well good god did i have a surprise when i walked into the hive room. That skybox changes the entire look of the room to me and for the first time i actually said 'Wow'. Anyway, enough of the praises, congrats on a job well done. You earned it.
Summit is my Favoured map on 2 Games now. I really love the Outsidearea. Sometimes I'm just flying around there and it is so funny if a Marines fals down :-), even as Marine, because all Skulks come to chase you (they always forget, that a Marine still can shoot).
And the room between Marinestart and East Resnode is cool. As Alien you can see the Marines coming and Hide and as Marine you can Scout East Node with no danger but this room is also really deathly for both teams :-).
Only thing that isn't good/fitting ( that's just my opinion) is the Marine Start. It's claustrophobic...sometimes. ( not sure about this word/spelling) and hard for me as com to build so that the marines dont have to walk a big maze from 1 side to the other, but still close enough and not ARC blocking. It is still the best Marinestart of all your Builds.
You should start working for UWE as mapper! Hope you will find some time, after this one is Gold, for a 2. one.
Marine start is a bit vulnerable IMO. Aliens can pop around the corner and target the comm chair or the powernode very easily. Plus once all the buildings are down there's no floor space which makes it easier for aliens to attack marines at the end game.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
The power node placement in Marine Start is still experimental. I put it there so marines have a harder time proloning lost games, but the mobile power node screwed me over :D
The lack of space was part of the reason why the Marine Start has changed so much and there is still the option to extrude the rock part further. Judging from pictures/videos, it seems commanders don't care for proper building placement though; maybe because there are no good ns1 commanders around? MS in NS1 maps were cramped aswell, when commanders didn't drop buildings at walls/corners (phasegate/ip in the middle) and at least in the last days of NS1 an Arms Lab or Observatory in the middle of MS was reason enough to eject a possible noob commander. So try putting an Obs in a corner near an exit, the Robotics F. or Arms Lab in the pit without a skulks being able to hide behind and you should have more space.
Evil_bOb1Join Date: 2002-07-13Member: 938Members, Squad Five Blue
I find constraints to be a good thing. They make the player play differently each game because he sees his previous way was not optimal. In a way the map teaches the player to find new ways. If the map is designed for easy defense, easy placement of buildings (etc.) so a first timer has no difficulty, then he won't evolve.
If you feel it must be bigger then do so but I wouldn't change things to just make it easier for beginners. Give people a challenge :D
<!--quoteo(post=1852069:date=Jun 12 2011, 12:38 PM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Jun 12 2011, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1852069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The power node placement in Marine Start is still experimental. I put it there so marines have a harder time proloning lost games, but the mobile power node screwed me over :D
The lack of space was part of the reason why the Marine Start has changed so much and there is still the option to extrude the rock part further. Judging from pictures/videos, it seems commanders don't care for proper building placement though; maybe because there are no good ns1 commanders around? MS in NS1 maps were cramped aswell, when commanders didn't drop buildings at walls/corners (phasegate/ip in the middle) and at least in the last days of NS1 an Arms Lab or Observatory in the middle of MS was reason enough to eject a possible noob commander. So try putting an Obs in a corner near an exit, the Robotics F. or Arms Lab in the pit without a skulks being able to hide behind and you should have more space.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with dropping the robotics factory in the pit area is, you can't get ARCs out of it easily. I personally put phasegate, observatory and armslab down there. Stick armory and IP in the rocky area and another IP against the wall to the left of the com chair. It would be so much easier if we could choose the rotation of every building, even though it means an extra click I doubt people would mind much, I'm just sick of buildings being diagonal and thus preventing me compacting them together - ESPECIALLY robotics factory, that ###### is just out of control.
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Crevice and Crossroads really need functioning power nodes. Marines have to put power packs everywhere to hold those areas, which is a little unfair, especially to cap the res node. Having said that, many of the corridors should remain unpowered by default (e.g. the corridor from Generator to Surface Access, etc).
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
edited June 2011
Thanks for the pics. Occlusion culling has some issues right now. At times it works perfectly and then after exploring the map further or flying outside of the map it shows half the map from a few spots. The new occlusion culling will hopefully fix that.
Regarding the story of the map I don't care much about that right now, sorry :) For me story comes at the end, because it adds nothing to the gameplay. After creating the Alien Start I had an idea about some kind of very small meteor or device hitting the complex from space and bringing in Bacteria. Would just need a broken glass part and some part of the meteor/device thing sticking in the floor (preferably the rocks in the front), maybe still smoking and some infestation around it.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2011
I love Summit! Thanks for the awesome map pSyk0mAn!
After testing the map over the last few days, I have a few issues:
- There is a hole on the eastern side of Crevice walkway that a Marine can fall through, and become stuck. - In several places, most notably in the middle of the Crossroads (under the fan), there are dark shadows that suggest they were cast by very bright lights, but the sources of lighting do not match the intensity they suggest. Another place is at the northern entrance of Heliport. The third place is in the passage NW of Crossroads. - Most of the Tech Points lack vents, or high perching locations for Lerks, making sniping and ambushing marines more difficult than on Tram. The arched tunnels in the ceiling in Surface Access are nice, but are too brightly lit when the power is out.
Keep up the good work!
Pictures of the odd shadows added: <img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/ns22011-06-1619-49-29-50.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Thanks for the feedback, twiliteblue!
Here is a little example how to place your buildings in Marine Start in order to maintain more (open) space. I've dropped 2 robotics to account for possible additional upgrade buildings and yet there is still room in the pit and at the rock wall for 3-4 more buildings, if they are placed properly at walls: <img src="http://i.imgur.com/vnkRl.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Just a little point of interest, the majority of the servers i saw the other day were all playing ns2_summit. Could be the nice shiny newness to it but yeah, thought that was quite interesting.
Besides that I've had quite a few good games on it and it seems to be playing out quite well for the moment. Marine spawn seems to give fades a bit of trouble moving around, doesn't take a genius to follow where they are likely to blink to which i find fantastic. Had enough of fades in ns1 just blinking into marine spawn, slaughtering 3 marines then blinking out to get healed up by a gorge, nice open connecting hallways to marine spawn also make it easier for them to assault any alien attackers (So far I've only had the opportunity to play as marines).
I love this map, but I found skulking to be awkward. I think the problems could be addressed with a vent between Ventilation and Flight control - Currently marines can push out too far without worrying about checking their six.
Comments
--Cory
I could really hear my inside Lerk shout "I'm freeeeeeeeee !" when flying in crevice. And all those high ceilings... So lovely to hide away from those disgusting bipeds.
I'm still processing what has happened; it went all so fast after the release of the first beta...
It's fun and a great experience working with UWE and there's so much new, juicy content created for my map, I can barely keep up with the mapping :p (you can already see the amazing skybox or the curved pipeline set at Marine Start)
I'm not sure if this has been brought up already, or if it is a bug in your map or the game, but the dynamic infestation seems to act odd on summit. I witnessed it spreading out in a line across map sections, and it would look off because it didn't grow up or down, it was just moving along one plane with no proper growth.
-Crossroads techpoint needs a power node. It's unfair that the marines have to build a power pack there to use the res node or techpoint.
-Generator power node cannot be repaired
-Ventilation res node area needs to be a bit bigger (the area where the res node sits). It's easy to get stuck on the res node geometry and the railing.
-There's a spot on the stairs in Surface Access between the res node and tech point that marines always get caught on. I had to jump to get past the invisible object, which cost me my life several times.
Overall great map though! Love it.
i´ve taken two screenshots.
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/2011060900002.jpg/" target="_blank">http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/2011060900002.jpg/</a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/2011060900001.jpg/" target="_blank">http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/718/2011060900001.jpg/</a>
i was evolving at the same spot where i was born ;) havent move after i broke my egg, so if its a map issue, you should be able to identify my egg location
i evolved into an lerk, so i had the opportunity to all the forbidden places ;)
edit: spelling
Every room and corridor in Tram is a box, and most of them are self-contained. Each room has some unique aesthetic or feel, but nothing other than the theme ties them together. Areas don't flow in and out of each other, they are separated by Corridors (yes, with a capital C). Everything feels controlled in Tram, even compared to Rockdown.
Summit feels like a facility with history and life! Each room has a distinct character, an age (some areas look older than others, hinting that the place was not built in a day) and a story; character that extends even into corridors, and the points where two distinct characters meet take on a life of their own because of this, or are simply unique rooms in themselves. Even corridors appear to have a purpose that contributes to the functionality of the entire compound. Also the variation in size and shape of areas gives the map character; there are wide open spaces, claustrophobic causeways, brightly lit rooms and dark deep cavernous sections alike. The changes in elevation also help the pacing greatly!
I don't feel that I'll ever learn every possible location that a Skulk might be hiding in each room, and even if I did, there's so much detail everywhere that it's nearly impossible to keep track of every square foot of the place, and that is delightfully frightening!
Also the 'Power Node in every room' thing tends to alienate all of the areas from each other. It'd provide more cohesion (and just make more sense) if Power Nodes provided power to multiple rooms. But that's for another thread.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/kotch/summit-wall.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Check "In game annotation system" in this thread <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=112812" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=112812</a> for posting any map related bugs
I've noticed there are a few props with rather vague physics that don't account for concave/convex surfaces.
If you scale up these props it might even get worse.
That invisible wall is caused by the arch prop called "refinery_tram_tableclamptrack".
If you check the physics in the viewer, you can see the problem.
Also, thanks Kuban, that was a beautiful read and I can tell you one thing:
That place was not build in one day :D
I've only had 5 - 10 mins to quickly run around your map (and get lost multiple times no less) and there's really not much i could say beyond what everyone else has been ranting about, though the use of curves throughout the level is a unique and very nice look.
If there's anywhere that is the most awe inspiring it would have to be the Kharaa hive room, i did a little jog through the map when you first released the map and then the other day when it was officially included into NS, well good god did i have a surprise when i walked into the hive room. That skybox changes the entire look of the room to me and for the first time i actually said 'Wow'.
Anyway, enough of the praises, congrats on a job well done. You earned it.
I really love the Outsidearea. Sometimes I'm just flying around there and it is so funny if a Marines fals down :-), even as Marine, because all Skulks come to chase you (they always forget, that a Marine still can shoot).
And the room between Marinestart and East Resnode is cool. As Alien you can see the Marines coming and Hide and as Marine you can Scout East Node with no danger but this room is also really deathly for both teams :-).
Only thing that isn't good/fitting ( that's just my opinion) is the Marine Start. It's claustrophobic...sometimes. ( not sure about this word/spelling) and hard for me as com to build so that the marines dont have to walk a big maze from 1 side to the other, but still close enough and not ARC blocking. It is still the best Marinestart of all your Builds.
You should start working for UWE as mapper!
Hope you will find some time, after this one is Gold, for a 2. one.
I put it there so marines have a harder time proloning lost games, but the mobile power node screwed me over :D
The lack of space was part of the reason why the Marine Start has changed so much and there is still the option to extrude the rock part further.
Judging from pictures/videos, it seems commanders don't care for proper building placement though; maybe because there are no good ns1 commanders around?
MS in NS1 maps were cramped aswell, when commanders didn't drop buildings at walls/corners (phasegate/ip in the middle) and at least in the last days of NS1 an Arms Lab or Observatory in the middle of MS was reason enough to eject a possible noob commander.
So try putting an Obs in a corner near an exit, the Robotics F. or Arms Lab in the pit without a skulks being able to hide behind and you should have more space.
If you feel it must be bigger then do so but I wouldn't change things to just make it easier for beginners. Give people a challenge :D
I put it there so marines have a harder time proloning lost games, but the mobile power node screwed me over :D
The lack of space was part of the reason why the Marine Start has changed so much and there is still the option to extrude the rock part further.
Judging from pictures/videos, it seems commanders don't care for proper building placement though; maybe because there are no good ns1 commanders around?
MS in NS1 maps were cramped aswell, when commanders didn't drop buildings at walls/corners (phasegate/ip in the middle) and at least in the last days of NS1 an Arms Lab or Observatory in the middle of MS was reason enough to eject a possible noob commander.
So try putting an Obs in a corner near an exit, the Robotics F. or Arms Lab in the pit without a skulks being able to hide behind and you should have more space.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem with dropping the robotics factory in the pit area is, you can't get ARCs out of it easily. I personally put phasegate, observatory and armslab down there. Stick armory and IP in the rocky area and another IP against the wall to the left of the com chair. It would be so much easier if we could choose the rotation of every building, even though it means an extra click I doubt people would mind much, I'm just sick of buildings being diagonal and thus preventing me compacting them together - ESPECIALLY robotics factory, that ###### is just out of control.
I do not know whether these are fixable via mapper or better occlusion culling? Feel free to test if you have the same problem.
Problem persists regardless of player count.
No problem on self made server, other servers have also the problem.
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/90/ns22011061518572065.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7383/ns22011061518572065.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/ns22011061518565527.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1623/ns22011061518565527.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/ns22011061518563979.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/3747/ns22011061518563979.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/ns22011061518563401.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/6712/ns22011061518563401.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/ns22011061518295241.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/374/ns22011061518295241.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/ns22011061518350944.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2605/ns22011061518350944.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/683/ns22011061518345423.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5584/ns22011061518345423.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/ns22011061518343213.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/5178/ns22011061518343213.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/ns22011061518282673.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3687/ns22011061518282673.th.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /></a>
r_wireframe true
makes for a more visual screen to see what is wrong
Occlusion culling has some issues right now.
At times it works perfectly and then after exploring the map further or flying outside of the map it shows half the map from a few spots.
The new occlusion culling will hopefully fix that.
Regarding the story of the map I don't care much about that right now, sorry :)
For me story comes at the end, because it adds nothing to the gameplay.
After creating the Alien Start I had an idea about some kind of very small meteor or device hitting the complex from space and bringing in Bacteria.
Would just need a broken glass part and some part of the meteor/device thing sticking in the floor (preferably the rocks in the front), maybe still smoking and some infestation around it.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLpHt30Ni4&t=7m8s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBLpHt30Ni4&t=7m8s</a>
oh i'd better kept that to myself.. brb, exploiting
After testing the map over the last few days, I have a few issues:
- There is a hole on the eastern side of Crevice walkway that a Marine can fall through, and become stuck.
- In several places, most notably in the middle of the Crossroads (under the fan), there are dark shadows that suggest they were cast by very bright lights, but the sources of lighting do not match the intensity they suggest. Another place is at the northern entrance of Heliport. The third place is in the passage NW of Crossroads.
- Most of the Tech Points lack vents, or high perching locations for Lerks, making sniping and ambushing marines more difficult than on Tram. The arched tunnels in the ceiling in Surface Access are nice, but are too brightly lit when the power is out.
Keep up the good work!
Pictures of the odd shadows added:
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/ns22011-06-1619-49-29-50.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n638/tsalerk/ns22011-06-1619-49-12-23.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Here is a little example how to place your buildings in Marine Start in order to maintain more (open) space.
I've dropped 2 robotics to account for possible additional upgrade buildings and yet there is still room in the pit and at the rock wall for 3-4 more buildings, if they are placed properly at walls:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/vnkRl.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Besides that I've had quite a few good games on it and it seems to be playing out quite well for the moment. Marine spawn seems to give fades a bit of trouble moving around, doesn't take a genius to follow where they are likely to blink to which i find fantastic. Had enough of fades in ns1 just blinking into marine spawn, slaughtering 3 marines then blinking out to get healed up by a gorge, nice open connecting hallways to marine spawn also make it easier for them to assault any alien attackers (So far I've only had the opportunity to play as marines).
But yeah, favorite ns2 map so far, great work m8.
I think the problems could be addressed with a vent between Ventilation and Flight control - Currently marines can push out too far without worrying about checking their six.