<!--quoteo(post=1859856:date=Jul 11 2011, 06:52 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 11 2011, 06:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah comms sucking isn't an argument for balance, shotgun being able to one shot skulks doesn't make a lot of sense when it carries eight shots and is available right out of the door, it should require two shots, one as the skulk is closing, one at close to point blank, or use your pistol or something, or add a bit of knockback to a full blast, having a better melee weapon than the aliens is really silly for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know even know what to say. It's so frustrating arguing with all the new NS2 players when they are so damn awful. And I don't mean new NS2 players as in just picked up the game yesterday, I mean as in didn't play NS1 and are awful at NS2.
Having a skulk leap at you and hit you midair and not only completely stop your movement but also not die in a hit? Playing marines is the most frustrating crap ever when you get ONE shot in before you die. And keep in mind this is against skulks that DON'T MISS BITES. The playerbase will get better and better over time meaning the majority of skulks are going to be able to land their bites.
The whole problem is having leap as a hive 1 ability and perma shotguns anyway, if that was taken out it would make the game a lot more interesting.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2011
Perhaps sentries shouldn't be able to be placed within the firing arc of other sentries. And be unable to be oriented to existing sentries. The firing arc becomes red to show you can't change it there. That way you have less sentries covering each other in small areas.
Can this post be stickied? After stalking these forums for a week (as well as everything else NS2 related that my crappy little laptop can handle :( ) this thread is one of the more informative, intelligent, and lacking in flaming discussions about what content is being handled currently and the community's responses to it.
Secondary reason for stickying, the log Charlie updates is one of the aspects of this game that really sets it apart. As a veteran NS player, the fact that development is so open and based on what players enjoy is incredibly refreshing in the video game market and makes this game all the more anticipatory.
Ok guys - you really need to nerf the marines turtling. Just spent 2 hours trying to kill marine base in crossroads - We had 4 hives, almost all RT nodes and bunch of undisciplined fades roaming around. And guess what? The marines won. They ninje'ed around, killed a hive or two, then got their sh*t together and instantly owned the aliens. Even when we managed to pull off an organized attack, the turret spam was too much for the nerfed fades.
Seen it a couple of times now - marines turtle up, wait an hour for a break and when it comes, win. I know the stats say it is quite balanced now but in certain situations the game becomes lame. Also, the fade is pretty much useless. Or at least not worth 50 res. I see players that simply choose to spend the res on gorge and hydras and sneak around with expandable skulks.
Just my little feedback on 180.
And to be constructive about it: Option no: 1. Limit the number of turrets per factory - leave the unlimited building placement, just allow, lets say, 4 turrets per factory. That could seriously limit the turtling potential with low res and low space. We could pretend its 'coz of the AI (which is placed in the factory) is limited and can handle only 4 turrets. 2. Make the turrets go 'mad' when there's too many targets around - it would work against lone, harassing skulks but with full frontal assault would limit the DPS potential. Lets say, make the turrets quickly change targets and thus waste time on re-aiming when there's =< 3 targets in FOV. 3. Could simply make em fragile - they look fragile, seem constructed with only one purpose - to spit bullets, not withstand leg tearing bites.
sentry spam was somewhat under control in NS1 since you needed turret factory, which only allowed you limited range to place your turrets and if you wanted more turrets you had to keep building turret factories, which made the whole process pretty costly.
in ns2, you can place turrets anywhere and are pretty cheap, their is no limit of them.
1.increase turrets price or 2.bring back turret factories, make it costly process or 3.limit turrets per room
<!--quoteo(post=1859889:date=Jul 11 2011, 09:19 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jul 11 2011, 09:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859889"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sentry spam was somewhat under control in NS1 since you needed turret factory, which only allowed you limited range to place your turrets and if you wanted more turrets you had to keep building turret factories, which made the whole process pretty costly.
in ns2, you can place turrets anywhere and are pretty cheap, their is no limit of them.
1.increase turrets price or 2.bring back turret factories, make it costly process or 3.limit turrets per room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> or 4. limit turrets per map...make it a designer choice or ...???
<!--quoteo(post=1859856:date=Jul 12 2011, 07:52 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jul 12 2011, 07:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859856"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah comms sucking isn't an argument for balance, shotgun being able to one shot skulks doesn't make a lot of sense when it carries eight shots and is available right out of the door, it should require two shots, one as the skulk is closing, one at close to point blank, or use your pistol or something, or add a bit of knockback to a full blast, having a better melee weapon than the aliens is really silly for marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why I think shotgun damage should be lowered from 20 (decreasing) to 10 (constant). It takes 90 damage (9 out of 10 pellets) to kill a skulk, but the likelihood of you managing this, unless it is truly point-blank, is low. 2 shots that half hit (9 out of 2x10 pellets) are more likely.
<!--quoteo(post=1859980:date=Jul 12 2011, 03:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 12 2011, 03:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why I think shotgun damage should be lowered from 20 (decreasing) to 10 (constant). It takes 90 damage (9 out of 10 pellets) to kill a skulk, but the likelihood of you managing this, unless it is truly point-blank, is low. 2 shots that half hit (9 out of 2x10 pellets) are more likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bahaha WHAT? You want shotguns to take an additional hit to kill a skulk permanently? Skulks can already leap in and kill marines in 2 hits with melee 1. The slowdown makes it so marines have two shots at most to get a kill, usually one if the skulk isn't bad.
<!--quoteo(post=1859887:date=Jul 11 2011, 09:17 PM:name=IronHalik)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IronHalik @ Jul 11 2011, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859887"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok guys - you really need to nerf the marines turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is not finalised. The Alien team is not finalised and have no siege breakers ala Onos.
A turtling marine team that would be resource starved will be destroyed once Onos and other Alien abilities become available for use.
Out the two teams the Marine side is more developed and one would assume leads to them being overly strong in some areas over Aliens.
Nerfing/buffing mechanics too much now does not make sense as it would create more work and may lead to more buffing/nerfing to get the mechanic back to where it was originally.
<!--quoteo(post=1859983:date=Jul 12 2011, 04:32 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 12 2011, 04:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bahaha WHAT? You want shotguns to take an additional hit to kill a skulk permanently? Skulks can already leap in and kill marines in 2 hits with melee 1. The slowdown makes it so marines have two shots at most to get a kill, usually one if the skulk isn't bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And then with armour 1, skulks take 3 hits to kill a marine again. Your point?
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<b>Re: NS2 Design Log 11th July</b>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could add “reload†to sentries, where they need to pause every so often<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a good solution. It could simulate "overheat" or "out of ammo" (I prefer the former, because having to monitor Sentry HP and energy across the map and reload them manually is tedious), providing a few seconds of time, for aliens to deal some damage to the base.
The downside is aliens have to soak up quite a lot of damage (and time) before the Sentries become "exhausted".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or could add more time to acquire targets, and-or reduce range so other targets in base can be attacked (power points, extractors, outlying buildings)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That also sounds like a good idea. However, fine tuning the lock-on time may require many tests. Sentry damage may also need to be adjusted according to range (more damage up close). Otherwise Skulks may easily leap past Sentries' LoS.
I rather like the "invisible wall" effect of the Sentry, when most of them point at the entrance, toward the enemy, instead of having most of them point at the center of the room, which makes the room feel like a prison.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the sentry taking damage takes energy also, or disrupts targeting or firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the idea that Sentries have reduced accuracy when taking damage. It will allow ranged aliens to disrupt Sentries' attack so melee aliens have a chance to close the gap. Although if there are too many Sentries, this change will not be very effective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Health is currently that of NS1, which was low because of 360 degrees firing arc. This makes it frustrating for Comms esp. when a skulk gets behind one and it’s gone within seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Increase in Sentry health sounds reasonable, as long as Sentry counts are limited. Having to deal 20,000 damge to take out a dozen of Sentries in one room doesn't feel very fun, even if they deal minimal damage.
Alternatively, keep Sentry health low, but allow Commanders to rotate Sentries' facing faster (~3 seconds).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something needs to be done to make whips useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whips have a lot of potential. They look cool, can hit all enemies in its arm's reach, and are mobile. Number-wise, they could use a lot of buffs.
Fury's effect radius is way too small, and its duration is too short, severely limiting Fury's usefulness. Whips lack the health, two Marines can kill a Whip in 5 seconds while remaining out of its reach. Perhaps Whips could gain a defensive stance, which reduces the damage it receives, but renders it unable to attack?
I also noticed that rooted Whips automatically uproot when Infestation around them die. I think that is one frustrating weakness of the Whips. BTW There is one funny bug, where a dying Whip can deal one final attack after death, exacting revenge on its enemies.
BTW has the development team considered implementing dynamic structural damage scaling, where player's damage against structures scale based on player count (of the opposite team?)? eg. It would take two players in a 6v6 the same amount of time to destroy a Cyst, as it would take four players in a 12v12 game. This may resolve balancing issues regarding structures' health across all game sizes.
+ more armour + ranged attack implemented asap + to go where they are told to go + to poison/parasite marines they hit + to knock equipped weapon out of marines hands (will send the weapon flying to other side of room where it can be picked up, if the marine makes it) + to be less obvious; perhaps coiled up like a cobra until a marine walks into range + to be able to move without going through the 'root' hassle - it's a good idea which should stay, but make it automatic!
<!--quoteo(post=1859996:date=Jul 12 2011, 10:22 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 12 2011, 10:22 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point doesn't change, you still get 2 shots off at the most against non-bad skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that is how it should be. NS is a team game. If you go rambo with a shotgun, you should lose against one decent skulk. A Skulk needs two bites for one marine. A marine should need at least 2 shots to kill a skulk.
<!--quoteo(post=1859980:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:26 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jul 12 2011, 09:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's why I think shotgun damage should be lowered from 20 (decreasing) to 10 (constant). It takes 90 damage (9 out of 10 pellets) to kill a skulk, but the likelihood of you managing this, unless it is truly point-blank, is low. 2 shots that half hit (9 out of 2x10 pellets) are more likely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hrr trouble is that would make it useless against anything else.
I think it'd be better if skulks specifically were stronger against it, and also if it was more accurate/had more pellets, at the moment using it at any sort of range is kind of impossible because of the random pellet distribution and the huge spread, I know it's a shotgun but I much prefer games with sensible shotgun spreads to the doom 3 style 'melee weapon with ammunition' which is common a lot of the time.
Make it so you have to aim at skulks with it and make it so that you need two shots, if needs be add some knockback to it so getting consistently good aim buys you time. Hell you could even add the rifle swing to the shotgun as well, from the patch video it looks like a pretty cool addition if you can time it right, makes leap more of a skill test, gets you closer but also puts you at risk of being smacked across the room, so hiding/attacking from behind might be a better approach.
+ more armour + ranged attack implemented asap + to go where they are told to go + to poison/parasite marines they hit + to knock equipped weapon out of marines hands (will send the weapon flying to other side of room where it can be picked up, if the marine makes it) + to be less obvious; perhaps coiled up like a cobra until a marine walks into range + to be able to move without going through the 'root' hassle - it's a good idea which should stay, but make it automatic!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like possibly the most annoying structure ever.
Just buff the damage resistance and damage inflicted, that'll force marines to shoot it more than a couple of times and also make them keep the hell away from it.
Oh also about sentries: You could just add carapace as an upgrade. As it stands the aliens don't have any of their siege breaker forms, if you could buff the health and armor of every alien on the field when attacking a base, it'd make it far far easier to do. If you add it as a mutually exclusive upgrade with something else, you could make the aliens choose between being better at attacking marines or moving around or some other valuable skill, and being better at just getting shot a lot which they are going to do if they are attacking a base.
Plus it can't be that hard to add, just add a quick impact sound change for hitting a carapace alien and add 20-40% onto the health of every alien when they take it. Then add say, celerity and focus which add 20-40% speed and 20-40% damage respectively and make them all mutually exclusive. Buff marines a little bit to compensate for aliens now being able to choose between being really tough or really fast or whatever, and you should largely fix turtling, even before the onos goes in.
Sentries could do with being more interesting certainly, the stuff in the log sounds like it'd be worth testing out, but mostly I think aliens need their tanking ability pretty severely. Marines have it sort of with phase gates and arcs, as they can throw bodies at the aliens to soak damage and arcs allow them to not get shot at as much, aliens on the other hand don't have the onos or carapace or celerity or redemption or anything which allows them to be tough/hard to hit/kill. Especially as the fade is now more of a striker than a general badass like he was before.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Add CoD style menu that tells you to press your use key to pick up a weapon<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopefully this makes it to more things. Such as doors, building structures, opening armories.
Also I think it would be great if the whip would have it's bombard as it's ranged attack. And it's whip when players get close.
Also another hud element I would love to see return, is the build/health/weld rings from ns1. Percentages just isn't as engaging..
power nodes are the turret factories in ns2, so add power usage into them. The more you build inside the room, the more power you drain from the power node, thus would limit them. BUT cost of turrets must be increased, they're to cheap.
turrets have problems shooting moving targets, they can do damage to moving targets but it will minor compared to targets who stand still will get more damage
with the "something needs to be done to make whips useful"
what if whips just paralyzed who ever it hits for 5 - 10 seconds.
If thats to much then what if it just renders the target unconscious and they fall over
OR my favorite one. It causes massive concussion to the target- their crosshairs start swinging all over the place (much like the conc grenades back in tfc that the scouts and medics used) But with a added blur effect perhaps, i dunno.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1860307:date=Jul 13 2011, 03:06 AM:name=assbda)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (assbda @ Jul 13 2011, 03:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860307"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->with the "something needs to be done to make whips useful"
what if whips just paralyzed who ever it hits for 5 - 10 seconds.
If thats to much then what if it just renders the target unconscious and they fall over
OR my favorite one. It causes massive concussion to the target- their crosshairs start swinging all over the place (much like the conc grenades back in tfc that the scouts and medics used) But with a added blur effect perhaps, i dunno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... Stuns that removes all control from players (5 seconds? Yikes!) are not fun to play against. Most of the time, Whips are just fodders for Marines, who simply stay out of Whips' reach. If anything, Whips need some changes to help them survive longer, especially against ranged attacks.
How about a way to make whips more useful would be to give the whips a projectile attack it can use to attack enemies from a distance and when they get within the currently set whipping distance it switches to default whip attack. Projectile's attack damage would be significantly lower than the whips melee damage, but enough damage to fend off a single marine. Also i agree with above poster that whips should indeed have ability to severely slow down marines once they are hit, because as is it is EXTREMELY easy for marines to outrun a whip when they are within its attacking radius.
Another possible idea is provide alien commander with ability to build Hydras for projectile attack and keep whips as close quarters attack/defense structure. This would allow the alien commander to mix up how he/she decides to defend a location and would in a sense make whips more useful as they could protect the hydras from close quarters attacks or marines trying to snipe them from around a corner.
Providing alien commander with hydras would seem like best fix as it allows commander to lock down a hive much more efficiently like marines can lock down hives with turrets. Gorges can build hydras, but lets be honest....how often can you as an alien commander seriously expect 1-2 teammates to gorge and drop hydras to lock down a hive. The commander should be able to do it just as Marine commander can drop turrets.
<!--quoteo(post=1859983:date=Jul 12 2011, 04:32 AM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 12 2011, 04:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bahaha WHAT? You want shotguns to take an additional hit to kill a skulk permanently? Skulks can already leap in and kill marines in 2 hits with melee 1. The slowdown makes it so marines have two shots at most to get a kill, usually one if the skulk isn't bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, and Marines should take an additional bite to die as well. Combat is too binary. Everything is a headshot.
<!--quoteo(post=1860233:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:22 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jul 12 2011, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->power nodes are the turret factories in ns2, so add power usage into them. The more you build inside the room, the more power you drain from the power node, thus would limit them. BUT cost of turrets must be increased, they're to cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been brainstorming about this as well, but as abundant as Power Nodes are I don't think it would effectively do much. They would have to increase the area that each power node covers, and reduce the number of power nodes to something less than the number of rooms with points of interest. For example:
<!--quoteo(post=1859996:date=Jul 12 2011, 05:22 PM:name=TrueVeritas)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrueVeritas @ Jul 12 2011, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1859996"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point doesn't change, you still get 2 shots off at the most against non-bad skulks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can still kill them with one hit with my suggestion, you just have to try a little harder. Let them get a little closer. Don't miss.
You know, make the shotgun less of an easy mode weapon? Is that so controversial?
<!--quoteo(post=1861042:date=Jul 16 2011, 12:09 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Jul 16 2011, 12:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861042"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please make this one of the threads that gets stuck to the first page...everyone should know about it!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
Also: I feel like a conversation about the design decision log/progress tracker, when read by forum-goers before pressing the start new thread button would cut down on unnecessary discussions about bugs/exploits/etc. that have already been stated as fixed.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li><b>Shotgun</b>: Increase cost to 20 (make less prolific), decrease max range slightly, <strike>rebalance with puncture damage (+30% dmg to players)</strike></li><li><b>Rifle</b>: Maybe change damage type to Heavy (2x effectiveness vs. armor), to make it about the same effectiveness vs. skulks but better against bigger/later lifeforms and heavily armored structures (esp. when combined with other weapons)? This is a big change though, not warranted yet.</li><li><b>GL</b>: Possibly add concussive effect to rounds or grenades to slow enemies (need to keep it distinct from ARCs)</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<ul><li><b>Shotgun</b>: Worrisome that puncture damage would even be considered for the Shotgun. It seems completely counter-intuitive (perhaps this was realized?).</li><li><b>Rifle</b>: This seems completely backwards. I think anyone playing the game would expect a Shotgun to deal Heavy damage, not the Rifle. Beyond that I don't understand why the Rifle is the candidate for being better against bigger/later lifeforms and heavily armored structures. Your starting weapon, the rifle should be the "jack of all trades master of none," shouldn't it? The shotgun seems a better candidate for Heavy damage (with a little damage reduction to compensate). Also, was is it an oversight or a deliberate decision that Heavy damage does not deal EXTRA damage to Armor like it was originally detailed in a previous blog post?</li><li><b>GL</b>: +1 for Concussive Rounds (and I guess grenades)! This seems like the missing link between the Rifle and the Shotgun!</li></ul>
EDIT: Take this comment with a grain of salt; apparently Charlie wasn't finished writing it, and I got antsy (sorry)!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Grenades a bit redundant. Also, so easy to get killed with a GL, just like NS1, frustrating. The whole point of incorporating the GL as an attachment to the rifle was to make you less vulnerable, but that doesn’t seem to be working.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think part of the reason for that is the delay you get when firing/reloading the grenades. You can't shoot your rifle or cancel the reload so you may as well have a separate gun which you need to change to. For it to work as an attachment it should never stop you from firing your main rifle.
I also feel the grenades are a bit laggy atm, sometimes they seem to be moving in slow motion (perhaps that's to do with server performance).
Instead of slow on hit you could make it so that aliens near the blast get a blurry vision type effect. This could disorientate them but wouldn't take away control / slow them in any way.
<!--quoteo(post=1861728:date=Jul 19 2011, 10:39 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jul 19 2011, 10:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1861728"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Rifle</b>: This seems completely backwards. I think anyone playing the game would expect a Shotgun to deal Heavy damage, not the Rifle. Beyond that I don't understand why the Rifle is the candidate for being better against bigger/later lifeforms and heavily armored structures. Your starting weapon, the rifle should be the "jack of all trades master of none," shouldn't it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, since the LMG is currently laughably useless against fades...? Not that that should necessarily be changed, since it's free and the Fade certainly isn't.
Comments
I don't know even know what to say. It's so frustrating arguing with all the new NS2 players when they are so damn awful. And I don't mean new NS2 players as in just picked up the game yesterday, I mean as in didn't play NS1 and are awful at NS2.
Having a skulk leap at you and hit you midair and not only completely stop your movement but also not die in a hit? Playing marines is the most frustrating crap ever when you get ONE shot in before you die. And keep in mind this is against skulks that DON'T MISS BITES. The playerbase will get better and better over time meaning the majority of skulks are going to be able to land their bites.
The whole problem is having leap as a hive 1 ability and perma shotguns anyway, if that was taken out it would make the game a lot more interesting.
Secondary reason for stickying, the log Charlie updates is one of the aspects of this game that really sets it apart. As a veteran NS player, the fact that development is so open and based on what players enjoy is incredibly refreshing in the video game market and makes this game all the more anticipatory.
Just spent 2 hours trying to kill marine base in crossroads - We had 4 hives, almost all RT nodes and bunch of undisciplined fades roaming around. And guess what? The marines won.
They ninje'ed around, killed a hive or two, then got their sh*t together and instantly owned the aliens.
Even when we managed to pull off an organized attack, the turret spam was too much for the nerfed fades.
Seen it a couple of times now - marines turtle up, wait an hour for a break and when it comes, win.
I know the stats say it is quite balanced now but in certain situations the game becomes lame.
Also, the fade is pretty much useless. Or at least not worth 50 res. I see players that simply choose to spend the res on gorge and hydras and sneak around with expandable skulks.
Just my little feedback on 180.
And to be constructive about it:
Option no:
1. Limit the number of turrets per factory - leave the unlimited building placement, just allow, lets say, 4 turrets per factory. That could seriously limit the turtling potential with low res and low space. We could pretend its 'coz of the AI (which is placed in the factory) is limited and can handle only 4 turrets.
2. Make the turrets go 'mad' when there's too many targets around - it would work against lone, harassing skulks but with full frontal assault would limit the DPS potential. Lets say, make the turrets quickly change targets and thus waste time on re-aiming when there's =< 3 targets in FOV.
3. Could simply make em fragile - they look fragile, seem constructed with only one purpose - to spit bullets, not withstand leg tearing bites.
Or we simply wait for the mighty onos.
Cheers
in ns2, you can place turrets anywhere and are pretty cheap, their is no limit of them.
1.increase turrets price
or
2.bring back turret factories, make it costly process
or
3.limit turrets per room
in ns2, you can place turrets anywhere and are pretty cheap, their is no limit of them.
1.increase turrets price
or
2.bring back turret factories, make it costly process
or
3.limit turrets per room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
or
4. limit turrets per map...make it a designer choice
or
...???
some gating factor needs to be put on them.
That's why I think shotgun damage should be lowered from 20 (decreasing) to 10 (constant). It takes 90 damage (9 out of 10 pellets) to kill a skulk, but the likelihood of you managing this, unless it is truly point-blank, is low. 2 shots that half hit (9 out of 2x10 pellets) are more likely.
Bahaha WHAT? You want shotguns to take an additional hit to kill a skulk permanently? Skulks can already leap in and kill marines in 2 hits with melee 1. The slowdown makes it so marines have two shots at most to get a kill, usually one if the skulk isn't bad.
The game is not finalised. The Alien team is not finalised and have no siege breakers ala Onos.
A turtling marine team that would be resource starved will be destroyed once Onos and other Alien abilities become available for use.
Out the two teams the Marine side is more developed and one would assume leads to them being overly strong in some areas over Aliens.
Nerfing/buffing mechanics too much now does not make sense as it would create more work and may lead to more buffing/nerfing to get the mechanic back to where it was originally.
And then with armour 1, skulks take 3 hits to kill a marine again. Your point?
My point doesn't change, you still get 2 shots off at the most against non-bad skulks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Could add “reload†to sentries, where they need to pause every so often<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a good solution. It could simulate "overheat" or "out of ammo" (I prefer the former, because having to monitor Sentry HP and energy across the map and reload them manually is tedious), providing a few seconds of time, for aliens to deal some damage to the base.
The downside is aliens have to soak up quite a lot of damage (and time) before the Sentries become "exhausted".
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or could add more time to acquire targets, and-or reduce range so other targets in base can be attacked (power points, extractors, outlying buildings)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That also sounds like a good idea. However, fine tuning the lock-on time may require many tests. Sentry damage may also need to be adjusted according to range (more damage up close). Otherwise Skulks may easily leap past Sentries' LoS.
I rather like the "invisible wall" effect of the Sentry, when most of them point at the entrance, toward the enemy, instead of having most of them point at the center of the room, which makes the room feel like a prison.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe the sentry taking damage takes energy also, or disrupts targeting or firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like the idea that Sentries have reduced accuracy when taking damage. It will allow ranged aliens to disrupt Sentries' attack so melee aliens have a chance to close the gap. Although if there are too many Sentries, this change will not be very effective.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Health is currently that of NS1, which was low because of 360 degrees firing arc. This makes it frustrating for Comms esp. when a skulk gets behind one and it’s gone within seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Increase in Sentry health sounds reasonable, as long as Sentry counts are limited. Having to deal 20,000 damge to take out a dozen of Sentries in one room doesn't feel very fun, even if they deal minimal damage.
Alternatively, keep Sentry health low, but allow Commanders to rotate Sentries' facing faster (~3 seconds).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something needs to be done to make whips useful.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whips have a lot of potential. They look cool, can hit all enemies in its arm's reach, and are mobile. Number-wise, they could use a lot of buffs.
Fury's effect radius is way too small, and its duration is too short, severely limiting Fury's usefulness. Whips lack the health, two Marines can kill a Whip in 5 seconds while remaining out of its reach. Perhaps Whips could gain a defensive stance, which reduces the damage it receives, but renders it unable to attack?
I also noticed that rooted Whips automatically uproot when Infestation around them die. I think that is one frustrating weakness of the Whips. BTW There is one funny bug, where a dying Whip can deal one final attack after death, exacting revenge on its enemies.
BTW has the development team considered implementing dynamic structural damage scaling, where player's damage against structures scale based on player count (of the opposite team?)?
eg. It would take two players in a 6v6 the same amount of time to destroy a Cyst, as it would take four players in a 12v12 game.
This may resolve balancing issues regarding structures' health across all game sizes.
+ more armour
+ ranged attack implemented asap
+ to go where they are told to go
+ to poison/parasite marines they hit
+ to knock equipped weapon out of marines hands (will send the weapon flying to other side of room where it can be picked up, if the marine makes it)
+ to be less obvious; perhaps coiled up like a cobra until a marine walks into range
+ to be able to move without going through the 'root' hassle - it's a good idea which should stay, but make it automatic!
And that is how it should be. NS is a team game. If you go rambo with a shotgun, you should lose against one decent skulk. A Skulk needs two bites for one marine. A marine should need at least 2 shots to kill a skulk.
Hrr trouble is that would make it useless against anything else.
I think it'd be better if skulks specifically were stronger against it, and also if it was more accurate/had more pellets, at the moment using it at any sort of range is kind of impossible because of the random pellet distribution and the huge spread, I know it's a shotgun but I much prefer games with sensible shotgun spreads to the doom 3 style 'melee weapon with ammunition' which is common a lot of the time.
Make it so you have to aim at skulks with it and make it so that you need two shots, if needs be add some knockback to it so getting consistently good aim buys you time. Hell you could even add the rifle swing to the shotgun as well, from the patch video it looks like a pretty cool addition if you can time it right, makes leap more of a skill test, gets you closer but also puts you at risk of being smacked across the room, so hiding/attacking from behind might be a better approach.
<!--quoteo(post=1860029:date=Jul 12 2011, 12:59 PM:name=peregrinus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peregrinus @ Jul 12 2011, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860029"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whips need
+ more armour
+ ranged attack implemented asap
+ to go where they are told to go
+ to poison/parasite marines they hit
+ to knock equipped weapon out of marines hands (will send the weapon flying to other side of room where it can be picked up, if the marine makes it)
+ to be less obvious; perhaps coiled up like a cobra until a marine walks into range
+ to be able to move without going through the 'root' hassle - it's a good idea which should stay, but make it automatic!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like possibly the most annoying structure ever.
Just buff the damage resistance and damage inflicted, that'll force marines to shoot it more than a couple of times and also make them keep the hell away from it.
Oh also about sentries: You could just add carapace as an upgrade. As it stands the aliens don't have any of their siege breaker forms, if you could buff the health and armor of every alien on the field when attacking a base, it'd make it far far easier to do. If you add it as a mutually exclusive upgrade with something else, you could make the aliens choose between being better at attacking marines or moving around or some other valuable skill, and being better at just getting shot a lot which they are going to do if they are attacking a base.
Plus it can't be that hard to add, just add a quick impact sound change for hitting a carapace alien and add 20-40% onto the health of every alien when they take it. Then add say, celerity and focus which add 20-40% speed and 20-40% damage respectively and make them all mutually exclusive. Buff marines a little bit to compensate for aliens now being able to choose between being really tough or really fast or whatever, and you should largely fix turtling, even before the onos goes in.
Sentries could do with being more interesting certainly, the stuff in the log sounds like it'd be worth testing out, but mostly I think aliens need their tanking ability pretty severely. Marines have it sort of with phase gates and arcs, as they can throw bodies at the aliens to soak damage and arcs allow them to not get shot at as much, aliens on the other hand don't have the onos or carapace or celerity or redemption or anything which allows them to be tough/hard to hit/kill. Especially as the fade is now more of a striker than a general badass like he was before.
Hopefully this makes it to more things. Such as doors, building structures, opening armories.
Also I think it would be great if the whip would have it's bombard as it's ranged attack. And it's whip when players get close.
Also another hud element I would love to see return, is the build/health/weld rings from ns1. Percentages just isn't as engaging..
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/SqdzZ.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" /> <img src="http://i.imgur.com/BHYN2.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You could then justifiably ramp up their cost.
turrets have problems shooting moving targets, they can do damage to moving targets but it will minor compared to targets who stand still will get more damage
I biased I hate sentries but I think the <b>focus should be on movement.</b>
I can agree with the shotgun though, too much will make it as useless as flamer though.
what if whips just paralyzed who ever it hits for 5 - 10 seconds.
If thats to much then what if it just renders the target unconscious and they fall over
OR my favorite one. It causes massive concussion to the target- their crosshairs start swinging all over the place (much like the conc grenades back in tfc that the scouts and medics used) But with a added blur effect perhaps, i dunno.
what if whips just paralyzed who ever it hits for 5 - 10 seconds.
If thats to much then what if it just renders the target unconscious and they fall over
OR my favorite one. It causes massive concussion to the target- their crosshairs start swinging all over the place (much like the conc grenades back in tfc that the scouts and medics used) But with a added blur effect perhaps, i dunno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... Stuns that removes all control from players (5 seconds? Yikes!) are not fun to play against. Most of the time, Whips are just fodders for Marines, who simply stay out of Whips' reach. If anything, Whips need some changes to help them survive longer, especially against ranged attacks.
Another possible idea is provide alien commander with ability to build Hydras for projectile attack and keep whips as close quarters attack/defense structure. This would allow the alien commander to mix up how he/she decides to defend a location and would in a sense make whips more useful as they could protect the hydras from close quarters attacks or marines trying to snipe them from around a corner.
Providing alien commander with hydras would seem like best fix as it allows commander to lock down a hive much more efficiently like marines can lock down hives with turrets. Gorges can build hydras, but lets be honest....how often can you as an alien commander seriously expect 1-2 teammates to gorge and drop hydras to lock down a hive. The commander should be able to do it just as Marine commander can drop turrets.
Yeah, and Marines should take an additional bite to die as well. Combat is too binary. Everything is a headshot.
<!--quoteo(post=1860233:date=Jul 12 2011, 09:22 PM:name=luns)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (luns @ Jul 12 2011, 09:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1860233"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->power nodes are the turret factories in ns2, so add power usage into them. The more you build inside the room, the more power you drain from the power node, thus would limit them. BUT cost of turrets must be increased, they're to cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been brainstorming about this as well, but as abundant as Power Nodes are I don't think it would effectively do much. They would have to increase the area that each power node covers, and reduce the number of power nodes to something less than the number of rooms with points of interest. For example:
<img src="http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9415/powernodedependencetram.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
You can still kill them with one hit with my suggestion, you just have to try a little harder. Let them get a little closer. Don't miss.
You know, make the shotgun less of an easy mode weapon? Is that so controversial?
+1
Also: I feel like a conversation about the design decision log/progress tracker, when read by forum-goers before pressing the start new thread button would cut down on unnecessary discussions about bugs/exploits/etc. that have already been stated as fixed.
<ul><li><b>Shotgun</b>: Worrisome that puncture damage would even be considered for the Shotgun. It seems completely counter-intuitive (perhaps this was realized?).</li><li><b>Rifle</b>: This seems completely backwards. I think anyone playing the game would expect a Shotgun to deal Heavy damage, not the Rifle. Beyond that I don't understand why the Rifle is the candidate for being better against bigger/later lifeforms and heavily armored structures. Your starting weapon, the rifle should be the "jack of all trades master of none," shouldn't it? The shotgun seems a better candidate for Heavy damage (with a little damage reduction to compensate). Also, was is it an oversight or a deliberate decision that Heavy damage does not deal EXTRA damage to Armor like it was originally detailed in a previous blog post?</li><li><b>GL</b>: +1 for Concussive Rounds (and I guess grenades)! This seems like the missing link between the Rifle and the Shotgun!</li></ul>
EDIT: Take this comment with a grain of salt; apparently Charlie wasn't finished writing it, and I got antsy (sorry)!
I think part of the reason for that is the delay you get when firing/reloading the grenades. You can't shoot your rifle or cancel the reload so you may as well have a separate gun which you need to change to. For it to work as an attachment it should never stop you from firing your main rifle.
I also feel the grenades are a bit laggy atm, sometimes they seem to be moving in slow motion (perhaps that's to do with server performance).
Instead of slow on hit you could make it so that aliens near the blast get a blurry vision type effect. This could disorientate them but wouldn't take away control / slow them in any way.
Well, since the LMG is currently laughably useless against fades...? Not that that should necessarily be changed, since it's free and the Fade certainly isn't.