SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->allow skulks to prevent marines from jumping and sprinting out of combat so easily<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that would be fantastic! i knew we need som change, since "normal" marines are way to agile. nice idea, wanna try it. and slowing down aliens on hit: you need to be very careful with numbers. if slowdown is too high, it could render aliens completely useless. maybe only the flamethrower can slow down? (assuming here that you nerf the burn effect)
we will see, im anyway curious about this and wanna try it asap ;)
wouldnt e a problem if sprint werent in the game in the first place. but since it is, it should have an adrenaline system. marines shouldnt be able to run the entire lenth of the map. why does every alien class have an adren bar but marines dont. meanwhile you ppl are complaining about skulk leaping and imaginary balance issues.
I don't really see the problem with sprint. It's rarely used in combat and at least currently (with leap) skulks have no problem catching a sprinting marine. The reason for the slowdown is to try and stop all the dancing etc. and that's got nothing to do with sprint.
Rather than taking away marine sprint, I feel the skulks should be sped up if anything.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
sprint should definitely stay in the game. talking about mobility: will we see in future a hive teleporting system like we had in ns1? (clicking mc/hive for porting to hive under attack). right now balance is quite similar to ns1, but the aliens are missing the teleport functionality and are not able to defend a hive under attack (you respawn at the wrong hive and by the time you got back its already killed. and dont tell me "dont die then". marines have PGs and can continue the pressure even with casualties)
Sprint is OK but not endlessly without marines tiring, same for jumping. Aliens were always the ones who are super agile, fast and deadly. Marines had to rely on covering each others backs and their powerful weapons. I don't like how as a skulk even if I sneak up on a marine I have to land 3 or 4 bites - by the 2nd bite the marine has begun to jump around making it nearly impossible to hit him. His guns kill my skulk in one hit or so. The skulks are big and easily spotted, they dont run particularly fast either. They die quickly from sentries too. Marines can stand infront of hydras and kill them, and easily sidestep whips. The feeling of being a predator has completely gone for me unless I'm a fade.
I see two ways forward
1- let marines keep those powerful 1 shot kill/cripple weapons, but stop them being able to jump around like monkeys and give them a more weighted feeling. Make aliens a bit faster.
2- give aliens much greater advantages on their home turf (infestation). Significant speed boost; faster regen; some cloaking ability.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
actually the skulk could have cloaking as a baseline ability. marines who got parasited are not able to see cloaked skulks ("unparasited" still can). parasites can be removed by the armory. if you use your +movement as skulk (sneak), you will become invisible, like ns1 cloak
this would promote parasiting, ambushing, scanning and adds a greator fear factor to marines (you dont want anymore to walk alone as marine :D ) this would make the skulk much better at ambushing than playing offensive (with leap, you will be visible), what he was originally supposed to be
<!--quoteo(post=1856068:date=Jun 24 2011, 10:57 AM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Jun 24 2011, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856068"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->actually the skulk could have cloaking as a baseline ability. marines who got parasited are not able to see cloaked skulks ("unparasited" still can). parasites can be removed by the armory. if you use your +movement as skulk (sneak), you will become invisible, like ns1 cloak
this would promote parasiting, ambushing, scanning and adds a greator fear factor to marines (you dont want anymore to walk alone as marine :D ) this would make the skulk much better at ambushing than playing offensive (with leap, you will be visible), what he was originally supposed to be<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Complete cloaking would be a bit excessive.
Giving Parasited Marines some HUD overlay that obscures their periphery would be acceptable, though.
<!--quoteo(post=1856056:date=Jun 24 2011, 01:41 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Jun 24 2011, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sprint is required because the speed of the aliens means they can dominate the early game, it also forces you to use phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you got this backwards. current aliens are slow, with sluggish movement. And if they remove early leap next patch (aside from how broken leap to begin with) marines sprint would be just another nail on the coffin for skulks.
And if you actually want to see phase gates be used more often, remove sprint. I can sprint to my location just as fast as you can teleport there, of course it will not an instant thing but currently sprint makes marines more mobile than phase gates.
edit
parasited marines should show up on aliens mini-map
as for cloaking, skulks should have more of a chameleon skin, allow them to blend in into the surface they're standing on. As for full cloaking, I wouldn't mind having this as an upgrade but we are still avoiding the problem - we must make aliens more agile. Anything else is just avoiding the problem, once we have better movement we can address upgrades and more passive abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1856134:date=Jun 24 2011, 02:48 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 24 2011, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Complete cloaking would be a bit excessive.
Giving Parasited Marines some HUD overlay that obscures their periphery would be acceptable, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something like <a href="http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz40/OutlawD1/parasite.png" target="_blank">this</a>?
What if parasited marines also couldn't hear skulk footsteps....just say the parasite affects marines perception of certain sound frequencies. Less vision and sound instead of full cloaking. Of course its not like the marine will be caught unaware as lowered periphery vision would be dead giveaway a skulk is around.
Parasite is already a really good ability: it is wallhack. Why does it need extras? If its to balance out marine/skulk engagements I'd much rather have the skulks speed increased or something else that increases the actual fun-ness of their combat abilities. They are the baseline grunt for the aliens, they should be a fun in-combat class akin to TF2's soldier rather than fill a niche slot of always ambushing. Not to mention if sneaking abilities were boosted, how would you effectively defend with skulks when the marines are pushing your hive with a siege and aren't able to be ambushed?
<!--quoteo(post=1856357:date=Jun 25 2011, 02:21 PM:name=OutlawDr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OutlawDr @ Jun 25 2011, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856357"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something like <a href="http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz40/OutlawD1/parasite.png" target="_blank">this</a>?
What if parasited marines also couldn't hear skulk footsteps....just say the parasite affects marines perception of certain sound frequencies. Less vision and sound instead of full cloaking. Of course its not like the marine will be caught unaware as lowered periphery vision would be dead giveaway a skulk is around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Conceptually yeah, but I'd hope it'd look like Infestation.
Also, muted hearing would a great addition. Would definitely increase the utility of Parasite.
If Parasite is going to inflict any kind of significant penalty, it should wear off over time (30-60 seconds)... getting stuck in a long life with vision reduction or limping around the map would be annoying as hell.
If slow to hit and leap disabling from bullets is added in then marines shouldn't be able to jump and shoot at the same time. (obviously a few other tweaks would be needed to compensate against other alien life forms.)
I mean otherwise if skulks get close nothing will change, the tango will still continue, this way marines have a way of dealing with skulks speed by GOOD aiming and skulks are rewarded for getting close to marines and IDEALLY encourage skulks to do what they are meant to do.. STALK and HIDE against tier 1 marines, not run head first into marines.. that's just not the idea at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1856382:date=Jun 25 2011, 04:27 PM:name=Shrike3O)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shrike3O @ Jun 25 2011, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856382"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If Parasite is going to inflict any kind of significant penalty, it should wear off over time (30-60 seconds)... getting stuck in a long life with vision reduction or limping around the map would be annoying as hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, to address the problem of Marines being faster than Skulks without upping their speed is to add a secondary effect to leap. What I propose is that Marines' speed is temporarily reduced to 60% and disables jump for 3 seconds following a successful leap attack. This effect would need a 2 second "protection timer" which would allow Marines to be immune to the effects of this ability; again, temporarily.
If this is researchable at Dual Hive tech, it still allows Skulks to be a force to be reckoned with end game, allow them to keep leap early game, and make it easier for the Aliens to catch those pesky Marines. I think leap is the only viable thing to use as Skulks as they can't run fast(er) or get up onto walls/ceilings easily without it.
Now to bullet slowdown, I think it's a terribad idea. Most Aliens (the exception being the Fade and Lurk) are slow enough as it is where they don't need to get slower. Please don't consider bullet slowdown.
<b>Edit:</b> Re-reading the design post I think that in order to balance out Skulk leap early game (that's where most problems are anyway) an idea is to reduce the leap speed. When the upgrade I proposed is researched, it restored the leap speed to what it currently is.
<!--quoteo(post=1856399:date=Jun 25 2011, 07:08 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 25 2011, 07:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You could try making skulk jump more like minileap in terms of distance and speed, and making regular leap a t2 upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tried. Reduced the EnergyCost and the LeapSpeed. So much fun to play! Chaining short-leaps feels so much better than the 1 long-shot we get right now. It's also better for climbing complex geometry!
<!--quoteo(post=1856417:date=Jun 26 2011, 07:20 AM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 26 2011, 07:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I tried. Reduced the EnergyCost and the LeapSpeed. So much fun to play! Chaining short-leaps feels so much better than the 1 long-shot we get right now. It's also better for climbing complex geometry!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking it wouldn't cost energy, just be a general ability of the skulk, like lerk flying or gorge sliding.
Also it shouldn't just be forward, it should go in the direction you press, so if you press right you leap right while facing forward.
<!--quoteo(post=1856422:date=Jun 26 2011, 03:53 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 26 2011, 03:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was thinking it wouldn't cost energy, just be a general ability of the skulk, like lerk flying or gorge sliding.
Also it shouldn't just be forward, it should go in the direction you press, so if you press right you leap right while facing forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I tried that too. When you're leaping, your max speed is increased so that you leap faster than you run. When there is no Energy cost for this, you can spam Leap to retain a lot of that velocity, essentially providing a one-button bunnyhop.
<!--quoteo(post=1856551:date=Jun 26 2011, 10:08 PM:name=KuBaN)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KuBaN @ Jun 26 2011, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, I tried that too. When you're leaping, your max speed is increased so that you leap faster than you run. When there is no Energy cost for this, you can spam Leap to retain a lot of that velocity, essentially providing a one-button bunnyhop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really think that's a bad thing, as long as it's easy to control, although I would say it should simply change your direction very quickly rather than changing your speed, so leaping left would immediately launch you left at full running speed, leaping forward would launch you forward at full running speed, leaping forward while running should just make you go into the air quite a bit.
You could increase skulk speed a bit to compensate.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2011
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Flayra)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flayra)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lerk 2.0: Give him rapid-firing, inaccurate, short-range, high-damage spikes (almost like a minigun but for close encounters), along with a "shotgun" style burst of spikes on alt-fire. These spikes are now “hitscan†so you don’t have to lead your targets. We’ll try to make it look like you’re shooting spikes still though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Those are both good candidates for the Lerk's close combat attack. However, I'd prefer the scattergun Spike, simply because the Lerk should be highly mobile, and from the Shotgun vs Rifle comparison, we can see that the Shotgun is clearly more powerful than the Rifle at close range.
But if all of the Lerk's attacks are designed for close combat (Spikes, as well as Spore attacks), then the Kharaa would lack a long ranged support. Hence I think Snipe should be kept as the the alt fire for Spikes. Poison Spike is not really needed. Snipe can serve to be the attack that slows Marine movement. I imagine a Marine would be hobbling with a few spikes lodged in his leg.
I like the ideas floated for the Lerk especially the spore trail - should look awesome!
The shotgun style spike blast could be a problem because the lerks are supposed to fly at the marines quickly, meaning it will be easy to miss then you are vulnerable because the attack needs to recharge, whereas the shotgun can fire 6? 7? times before reloading.
Personally I like playing ranged/support classes and if the Lerk is turned into a close range only class then I'm left with the Gorge.
in regards to the "no mechanic for marine squads":
are you implying that there needs to be more incentive for marines to stick together than simply 'if you stick together and play as a team in natural selection 2, you greatly increase your odds of winning'?
how about something small, like... catpacks are aoe and can be dropped onto "squads" instead of just having another thing lying on the ground that i have to run over.
Comments
that would be fantastic! i knew we need som change, since "normal" marines are way to agile. nice idea, wanna try it.
and slowing down aliens on hit: you need to be very careful with numbers. if slowdown is too high, it could render aliens
completely useless. maybe only the flamethrower can slow down? (assuming here that you nerf the burn effect)
we will see, im anyway curious about this and wanna try it asap ;)
Rather than taking away marine sprint, I feel the skulks should be sped up if anything.
right now balance is quite similar to ns1, but the aliens are missing the teleport functionality and are not able to defend a hive under attack (you respawn at the wrong hive and by the time you got back its already killed. and dont tell me "dont die then". marines have PGs and can continue the pressure even with casualties)
I see two ways forward
1- let marines keep those powerful 1 shot kill/cripple weapons, but stop them being able to jump around like monkeys and give them a more weighted feeling. Make aliens a bit faster.
2- give aliens much greater advantages on their home turf (infestation). Significant speed boost; faster regen; some cloaking ability.
this would promote parasiting, ambushing, scanning and adds a greator fear factor to marines (you dont want anymore to walk alone as marine :D )
this would make the skulk much better at ambushing than playing offensive (with leap, you will be visible), what he was originally supposed to be
this would promote parasiting, ambushing, scanning and adds a greator fear factor to marines (you dont want anymore to walk alone as marine :D )
this would make the skulk much better at ambushing than playing offensive (with leap, you will be visible), what he was originally supposed to be<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Complete cloaking would be a bit excessive.
Giving Parasited Marines some HUD overlay that obscures their periphery would be acceptable, though.
you got this backwards. current aliens are slow, with sluggish movement. And if they remove early leap next patch (aside from how broken leap to begin with) marines sprint would be just another nail on the coffin for skulks.
And if you actually want to see phase gates be used more often, remove sprint. I can sprint to my location just as fast as you can teleport there, of course it will not an instant thing but currently sprint makes marines more mobile than phase gates.
edit
parasited marines should show up on aliens mini-map
as for cloaking, skulks should have more of a chameleon skin, allow them to blend in into the surface they're standing on. As for full cloaking, I wouldn't mind having this as an upgrade but we are still avoiding the problem - we must make aliens more agile. Anything else is just avoiding the problem, once we have better movement we can address upgrades and more passive abilities.
Giving Parasited Marines some HUD overlay that obscures their periphery would be acceptable, though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something like <a href="http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz40/OutlawD1/parasite.png" target="_blank">this</a>?
What if parasited marines also couldn't hear skulk footsteps....just say the parasite affects marines perception of certain sound frequencies. Less vision and sound instead of full cloaking. Of course its not like the marine will be caught unaware as lowered periphery vision would be dead giveaway a skulk is around.
What if parasited marines also couldn't hear skulk footsteps....just say the parasite affects marines perception of certain sound frequencies. Less vision and sound instead of full cloaking. Of course its not like the marine will be caught unaware as lowered periphery vision would be dead giveaway a skulk is around.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Conceptually yeah, but I'd hope it'd look like Infestation.
Also, muted hearing would a great addition. Would definitely increase the utility of Parasite.
I mean otherwise if skulks get close nothing will change, the tango will still continue, this way marines have a way of dealing with skulks speed by GOOD aiming and skulks are rewarded for getting close to marines and IDEALLY encourage skulks to do what they are meant to do.. STALK and HIDE against tier 1 marines, not run head first into marines.. that's just not the idea at all.
This would be a vast improvement in my eyes.
Medpack kills the Parasite. Just call for one!
If this is researchable at Dual Hive tech, it still allows Skulks to be a force to be reckoned with end game, allow them to keep leap early game, and make it easier for the Aliens to catch those pesky Marines. I think leap is the only viable thing to use as Skulks as they can't run fast(er) or get up onto walls/ceilings easily without it.
Now to bullet slowdown, I think it's a terribad idea. Most Aliens (the exception being the Fade and Lurk) are slow enough as it is where they don't need to get slower. Please don't consider bullet slowdown.
<b>Edit:</b> Re-reading the design post I think that in order to balance out Skulk leap early game (that's where most problems are anyway) an idea is to reduce the leap speed. When the upgrade I proposed is researched, it restored the leap speed to what it currently is.
I tried. Reduced the EnergyCost and the LeapSpeed. So much fun to play! Chaining short-leaps feels so much better than the 1 long-shot we get right now. It's also better for climbing complex geometry!
I was thinking it wouldn't cost energy, just be a general ability of the skulk, like lerk flying or gorge sliding.
Also it shouldn't just be forward, it should go in the direction you press, so if you press right you leap right while facing forward.
Also it shouldn't just be forward, it should go in the direction you press, so if you press right you leap right while facing forward.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I tried that too. When you're leaping, your max speed is increased so that you leap faster than you run. When there is no Energy cost for this, you can spam Leap to retain a lot of that velocity, essentially providing a one-button bunnyhop.
I don't really think that's a bad thing, as long as it's easy to control, although I would say it should simply change your direction very quickly rather than changing your speed, so leaping left would immediately launch you left at full running speed, leaping forward would launch you forward at full running speed, leaping forward while running should just make you go into the air quite a bit.
You could increase skulk speed a bit to compensate.
Give him rapid-firing, inaccurate, short-range, high-damage spikes (almost like a minigun but for close encounters), along with a "shotgun" style burst of spikes on alt-fire. These spikes are now “hitscan†so you don’t have to lead your targets. We’ll try to make it look like you’re shooting spikes still though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are both good candidates for the Lerk's close combat attack. However, I'd prefer the scattergun Spike, simply because the Lerk should be highly mobile, and from the Shotgun vs Rifle comparison, we can see that the Shotgun is clearly more powerful than the Rifle at close range.
But if all of the Lerk's attacks are designed for close combat (Spikes, as well as Spore attacks), then the Kharaa would lack a long ranged support. Hence I think Snipe should be kept as the the alt fire for Spikes. Poison Spike is not really needed. Snipe can serve to be the attack that slows Marine movement. I imagine a Marine would be hobbling with a few spikes lodged in his leg.
The shotgun style spike blast could be a problem because the lerks are supposed to fly at the marines quickly, meaning it will be easy to miss then you are vulnerable because the attack needs to recharge, whereas the shotgun can fire 6? 7? times before reloading.
Personally I like playing ranged/support classes and if the Lerk is turned into a close range only class then I'm left with the Gorge.
What's the difference between fades and lerks? Both would be highly mobile hit and run high damage units.
with spikes/spores the lerk became long range fighter, so now he's trying to nerf his range and aim so lerks would be close combat fighters.
my idea
slot1
lerk bite and secondary attack umbra
slot2
short range spikes and secondary attack spores
OR
slot1 lerk bite and secondary attack spores
slot2
short range spikes and secondary attack umbra
either way, bring back lerk bite and umbra - most required abilities of the lerk from ns1.
are you implying that there needs to be more incentive for marines to stick together than simply 'if you stick together and play as a team in natural selection 2, you greatly increase your odds of winning'?
how about something small, like... catpacks are aoe and can be dropped onto "squads" instead of just having another thing lying on the ground that i have to run over.