Shade idea: randomly make marines lose vision of each other (basically cloak marines from marines vision), and randomly spawn hallucinations (phantasm-like aliens, ai controlled, but only visible to *some* marines).
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?
<!--quoteo(post=1866412:date=Aug 4 2011, 09:08 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 4 2011, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade idea: randomly make marines lose vision of each other (basically cloak marines from marines vision), and randomly spawn hallucinations (phantasm-like aliens, ai controlled, but only visible to *some* marines).
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds funny and a almost similar thing like this you can find in STALKER.
This is going to be so confusing to players who don't know about the shade, so I hope there is an obvious visual effect so you know something odd is going on, not just people randomly vanishing. We get enough of that with lag and performance issues :/
<!--quoteo(post=1866417:date=Aug 4 2011, 09:28 PM:name=RebellionElite)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RebellionElite @ Aug 4 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wait I thought cloak would be an auto ability instead of triggered like NS1, so whips are still useless correct?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pretty much, most of the ideas just work on paper.I do not see how shade will match sensory chamber from ns1 if cloak becomes triggered ability. Ask yourself who even uses umbra or better yet whips fury ability? it sure has some nice special effects but it just doesn't cut it. They're only doing this so the commander has something to do. I do like other abilities shade will offer but cloak should work as it always had in ns1.
I'm guessing this is just first pass on this chamber, so i'm sure it might change in the later patch. I just wish they remove all these silly triggered abilities, and give them to the aliens as upgrades or passive abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1866412:date=Aug 4 2011, 09:08 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 4 2011, 09:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shade idea: randomly make marines lose vision of each other (basically cloak marines from marines vision), and randomly spawn hallucinations (phantasm-like aliens, ai controlled, but only visible to *some* marines).
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Disorient (Passive) - Enemy structures and players flicker in and out when in range of Shade, making it hard for Commander and team-mates to be able to support each other. Extreme reverb sounds for enemies (and slight reverb sounds for friendlies) enhance the effect.
I really like the idea of triggered abilities for the kharaa comm (khamm?) to use. Why should only the marine comm get to have closer interaction with his team? The drifters don't have nearly the abilities of MACs. The Khamm can't heal or boost players directly like a marine comm can using medpacks and ammo (and maybe catpacks?). I think the Khamm needs more cool triggered abilities to use with the team, and the Shade cloak ability seems to be a decent first step in that direction.
Maybe if Umbra had a lasting effect like the cloak, it would be used more. It would be like an extra coat of carapace, an armor over-boost that can't be healed once it is lost. There could even have a nice visual effect on the alien to let marines know about the extra armor effect. It would also signal that there is a crag somewhere.
I just really like the idea of the khamm telling a group of aliens to gather around a crag/shade before they make a coordinated attack.
<!--quoteo(post=1866682:date=Aug 5 2011, 11:35 AM:name=culprit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (culprit @ Aug 5 2011, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866682"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe if Umbra had a lasting effect like the cloak, it would be used more. It would be like an extra coat of carapace, an armor over-boost that can't be healed once it is lost. There could even have a nice visual effect on the alien to let marines know about the extra armor effect. It would also signal that there is a crag somewhere.
I just really like the idea of the khamm telling a group of aliens to gather around a crag/shade before they make a coordinated attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I really like this idea. Maybe it could work like Quake games where you pick up the MegaHealth and it allows you to exceed maximum HP but the extra slowly ticks down over time until you hit your base amount. (also like overhealing in TF2)
Yep! The slow tick down would be pretty cool. Maybe the effect could show the Umbra slowly boiling off the alien's skin or leaving behind wispy trails as the coating evaporates away.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2011
It definitely would bring more alien commander interaction and would ease the pain of lerks not having umbra anymore.
Also if all the triggered abilities followed this style, like whip fury, and eventually shift energize. They would all see more use from the alien team.
Yes, this would really fit with the hit-n-run style combat of the alien side. Aliens usually have to return to the hive or a crag to get healed up. This would add more Khamm (ya, I'm trying to get that to catch on) and team interaction to that behavior that already exists. While all the aliens group up to heal and recharge for the next strike, the Khamm can buff the players with the crag/shade/whip etc.
This is very interesting, but possibly counterproductive if players (or even Comm?) spend too much time playing the "Who's the Phantasm?" game...
Although, it has potential to become a good indirect/direct method for the Alien Commander to support his team, given that he is able to inhibit these Phantasms.
For example: The Commander can place ghost lifeforms anywhere Kharaa players or structures can provide LOS. He can click on a ghost and inhibit it via the press of a button, OR even inhibit a Phantasm the instant he places the ghost. As such, he can provide support out of thin air, but it'll be pretty obvious if an Onos just suddenly appeared in front of a Marine squad (possibly play some mist-like effect for a brief moment to signal the birth of a Phantasm, instead of an actual lifeform coming out of Cloak?)
regrading phantasm abilities, maybe this chamber as passive ability can enhance parasite ability of the skulk. Let me explain, if the skulk would parasite lone marine, that marine not only be visible to every alien but they would randomly start to hear footsteps/noises of other aliens even though non are around. Of course this would work randomly just to confuse the marine.
its nice idea what they trying to do with phantasms, but its one of those things you have to see how it works in-game before you comment. Since we all know from experience how great ideas sound on paper.
Though the shade chamber aka sensory chamber should work as it did in ns1 regrading cloaking anything in its range, and give cloak ability to aliens. All these triggered abilities will always hardly ever be used and if they will, its one of those rare moments in game. (good example umbra, and fury ability, who even uses them?)
I would also like to point out, gorge needs to be building chambers as well aside from the commander. We need to remember its two DIFFERENT races, and we need to treat them as such.
<!--quoteo(post=1866478:date=Aug 5 2011, 12:05 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Aug 5 2011, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1866478"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Disorient (Passive) - Enemy structures and players flicker in and out when in range of Shade, making it hard for Commander and team-mates to be able to support each other. Extreme reverb sounds for enemies (and slight reverb sounds for friendlies) enhance the effect.
Disorient reminds me a bit of the Spy class 'pill' grenade in TFC that made enemies hallucinate lots of distractions for a small duration after exposure. I could see the abilities just making a marine see lots of different illusions that would be very disorienting. Combined with a mild version of the Conc grenade effect from TFC that skews your aim around your crosshairs a small amount. It's still easy to trace your shots, but you have to adjust for a bit of weapon sway.
On the other hand, maybe I should just try to play some TFC and be quiet =P
For disorient, whenever you're in the shades radius, it should play different sounds, skulk biting RT, fade blinking, marines shooting, lerk gas, taunts fading in and out, hive mind messages sent to the marines saying on how they know they are there, hydras etc... sounds of aliens running towards/flying towards, getting progressively louder.
Maybe even have it to where marines see visions of aliens.. Walking by a shade area, and all of a sudden a ghost fade just appears and does the stab ability or blinks towards but doesn't go disappear, just flies quickly towards them.
The sounds should seem as though it's coming from every direction, so you don't know what's going on.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2011
I believe the game would see a big balance fix if the alien damage/armor research was unlocked by hive count. With damage/armor 3 at hive 3.
It would be the best approach in fixing the midgame without nerfing the alien species. That way instead of fighting level 3 fades at hive 2, you'll be fighting level 2 fades. And it would lighten the power of skulks in the early game without nerfing their overall potential.
Also it would give more res costs to the alien team, and add extra incentive to expand for that last hive.
Another idea would be to limit the evolution upgrades to 3. Or 1 per type like ns1.
About the shade cloak, in a mod called Empires, if you played as a scout and choose the "hide" ability, you can turn partially invisible if you crouched still for a few. The more walls you stood next to, the harder it was to see you, and you could stay cloaked as long as you didn't fire your SMG, get up, or moved quickly. Perhaps the shade cloak could work like that?
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
im not sure how the "phantasms" will make people want to press +use on them? in clanwars ok, it's about tactics. but in public? i really don't want to play without having any direct effect (in public). I think most of the people out there will think the same and see phantasm just as a gimmick. also, wasting a scan on them would be completely dump. you need the energy for beacon and the people on the field will understand quite fast that some alien is just "fake" since it deals no damage, before you could even react on it as commander (which makes scanning it useless). make those phantasm AI controlled is one thing, but i would not waste real players time to control them to gain such a minimal tactical advantage. it's a real cool features in theory, and it works for rts games (see starcraft), but im afraid it would make no sense in ns2. even if you make phantasms AI controlled only, the "good" players will identify them immediately and render them useless. i really have concerns about that feature
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
you can scout with skulks, you don't need to drop a shade. I don't know which abilities the crag or shift would have, but just judging from the rumours i would prefer one of those chambers (which have useful abilities)
QuovatisTeam InversionJoin Date: 2010-01-26Member: 70321Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2011
Regarding the new "Stalemate" thoughts:
I think the biggest things causing the stalemates are 1) Bad FPS for Marines. As stated, marines are affected more than aliens with bad FPS, and this affects their ability to aim and make progress late in the game when FPS and server performance go down. 2) Sentry Spam. Reducing sentry health would help a lot, but I think the more obvious solution is to limit the number of sentries per room to 4 or 5 max...at least for now. As a competitive player, I have only seen one stalemate in all of our matches, and that was a game when the marines built a crapload of turrets. 3) Fade blink. Marines can still take damage from a fade before they even see them. Once fades are out, marines really have no chance. 4) Beacon not costing res. Beacon needs to cost res as well as energy so marines can't endlessly spam it.
Umbra would be nice to have too and I think it would help for sure. Having a whip bombard ability and making the whip travel 4x faster than it does now would also help.
Idea #1 Doesn't sound like it solves the aliens can't finish it problem. The problem stems for too many turrets in the marine start and all the marines being there.
Idea #2 Not sure if this would solve problem. But certainly worthy of experimentation.
Idea #3 If this is attacking the marine getting a foot early game. Then I would vote for the increased spawn times. The only word of caution I would add, is I love that getting a foot tension and I would be disappointed to see it completely removed.
Idea #5 Needs to be thought about more. But seems to be the most logical. The turrets need a weak point.
Idea #7 Freeing up umbra as an AoE spell casted by the alien commander with a large cooldown. Would give the alien commander more purpose and give skulks a chance taking out static defense.
Idea #8 Good idea across the board but probably does not solve the problems.
Comments
Edit: NVM, search is my friend.
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds funny and a almost similar thing like this you can find in STALKER.
pretty much, most of the ideas just work on paper.I do not see how shade will match sensory chamber from ns1 if cloak becomes triggered ability. Ask yourself who even uses umbra or better yet whips fury ability? it sure has some nice special effects but it just doesn't cut it. They're only doing this so the commander has something to do. I do like other abilities shade will offer but cloak should work as it always had in ns1.
I'm guessing this is just first pass on this chamber, so i'm sure it might change in the later patch. I just wish they remove all these silly triggered abilities, and give them to the aliens as upgrades or passive abilities.
How awesome would it be walk into an area with two buddies, and have one guy start flipping out, shooting at nothing, yelling into his mic "help, where did you guys go!" Meanwhile you're just standing there watching him spaz out?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Disorient (Passive) - Enemy structures and players flicker in and out when in range of Shade,
making it hard for Commander and team-mates to be able to support each other. Extreme reverb sounds for enemies (and slight reverb sounds for friendlies) enhance the effect.
that?
Nevermind!
Maybe if Umbra had a lasting effect like the cloak, it would be used more. It would be like an extra coat of carapace, an armor over-boost that can't be healed once it is lost. There could even have a nice visual effect on the alien to let marines know about the extra armor effect. It would also signal that there is a crag somewhere.
I just really like the idea of the khamm telling a group of aliens to gather around a crag/shade before they make a coordinated attack.
I just really like the idea of the khamm telling a group of aliens to gather around a crag/shade before they make a coordinated attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I really like this idea. Maybe it could work like Quake games where you pick up the MegaHealth and it allows you to exceed maximum HP but the extra slowly ticks down over time until you hit your base amount. (also like overhealing in TF2)
Also if all the triggered abilities followed this style, like whip fury, and eventually shift energize. They would all see more use from the alien team.
This is very interesting, but possibly counterproductive if players (or even Comm?) spend too much time playing the "Who's the Phantasm?" game...
Although, it has potential to become a good indirect/direct method for the Alien Commander to support his team, given that he is able to inhibit these Phantasms.
For example: The Commander can place ghost lifeforms anywhere Kharaa players or structures can provide LOS. He can click on a ghost and inhibit it via the press of a button, OR even inhibit a Phantasm the instant he places the ghost. As such, he can provide support out of thin air, but it'll be pretty obvious if an Onos just suddenly appeared in front of a Marine squad (possibly play some mist-like effect for a brief moment to signal the birth of a Phantasm, instead of an actual lifeform coming out of Cloak?)
its nice idea what they trying to do with phantasms, but its one of those things you have to see how it works in-game before you comment. Since we all know from experience how great ideas sound on paper.
Though the shade chamber aka sensory chamber should work as it did in ns1 regrading cloaking anything in its range, and give cloak ability to aliens. All these triggered abilities will always hardly ever be used and if they will, its one of those rare moments in game. (good example umbra, and fury ability, who even uses them?)
I would also like to point out, gorge needs to be building chambers as well aside from the commander. We need to remember its two DIFFERENT races, and we need to treat them as such.
making it hard for Commander and team-mates to be able to support each other. Extreme reverb sounds for enemies (and slight reverb sounds for friendlies) enhance the effect.
that?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also Friendly ones and Fake Lifeforms.
On the other hand, maybe I should just try to play some TFC and be quiet =P
Maybe even have it to where marines see visions of aliens.. Walking by a shade area, and all of a sudden a ghost fade just appears and does the stab ability or blinks towards but doesn't go disappear, just flies quickly towards them.
The sounds should seem as though it's coming from every direction, so you don't know what's going on.
Or the 70% alien win will become even higher.
Also, auto teambalancing would be nice.
Having half a team leave just to fight 6 vs 3 isnt quite fun
It would be the best approach in fixing the midgame without nerfing the alien species. That way instead of fighting level 3 fades at hive 2, you'll be fighting level 2 fades. And it would lighten the power of skulks in the early game without nerfing their overall potential.
Also it would give more res costs to the alien team, and add extra incentive to expand for that last hive.
Another idea would be to limit the evolution upgrades to 3. Or 1 per type like ns1.
Why not let gorges create them to give them more power (like the Babbler) and you respawn back at hive
So it can still do some damage to your base when ignored.
I think the biggest things causing the stalemates are
1) Bad FPS for Marines. As stated, marines are affected more than aliens with bad FPS, and this affects their ability to aim and make progress late in the game when FPS and server performance go down.
2) Sentry Spam. Reducing sentry health would help a lot, but I think the more obvious solution is to limit the number of sentries per room to 4 or 5 max...at least for now. As a competitive player, I have only seen one stalemate in all of our matches, and that was a game when the marines built a crapload of turrets.
3) Fade blink. Marines can still take damage from a fade before they even see them. Once fades are out, marines really have no chance.
4) Beacon not costing res. Beacon needs to cost res as well as energy so marines can't endlessly spam it.
Umbra would be nice to have too and I think it would help for sure. Having a whip bombard ability and making the whip travel 4x faster than it does now would also help.
Idea #1
Doesn't sound like it solves the aliens can't finish it problem.
The problem stems for too many turrets in the marine start and all the marines being there.
Idea #2
Not sure if this would solve problem.
But certainly worthy of experimentation.
Idea #3
If this is attacking the marine getting a foot early game.
Then I would vote for the increased spawn times.
The only word of caution I would add, is I love that getting a foot tension
and I would be disappointed to see it completely removed.
Idea #5
Needs to be thought about more. But seems to be the most logical.
The turrets need a weak point.
Idea #7
Freeing up umbra as an AoE spell casted by the alien commander with a large cooldown.
Would give the alien commander more purpose and give skulks a chance taking out static defense.
Idea #8
Good idea across the board but probably does not solve the problems.