Reduced backward speed

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Comments

  • echsechs Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11568Members, Constellation
    I love the slower back movement as it prevents lame play. I now sprint forward and spin round to gain some distance between myself and the Skulk. I find this to be much better gameplay then simply running backwards holding down fire.
  • brownymasterbrownymaster Join Date: 2009-07-11 Member: 68110Members
    I think we should put in running backwards if people who want backwards movespeed to be faster are willing to run backwards without looking backwards in hallways and corridors with turns then post youtube videos of how it goes, then go from there.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    ^ wut.

    Also "Marines have range? wtf I'm not a turret" is a good argument. Not exactly eloquent, but you get it.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    Alright. Marine vs Marine time. I have a gun, you have knife. Let's duel.
  • brownymasterbrownymaster Join Date: 2009-07-11 Member: 68110Members
    Marines can still move, but they moving backwards is not an option. There's still left and right, which are still very good options if timed correctly. A decent player can strafe jump to the side and continue shooting very quickly. You're not stationary, and you shouldn't be 1v1 anyways (I really don't like the 1v1 arguments, it's a matter of movement while being attacked).
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1828056:date=Jan 28 2011, 05:41 PM:name=Revenge)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revenge @ Jan 28 2011, 05:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1828056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alright. Marine vs Marine time. I have a gun, you have knife. Let's duel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Guns for show, knives for a pro.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    there is kinda no point in running backwards in NS2 anyway, cause you'd be hitting a wall or obstactle pretty quickly anyway - you're much better off turning around and running - or side stepping to avoid an attack.
  • LazerLazer Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14406Members, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    edited January 2011
    Wow people seem to have this need to take one side or the other but I think you are both wrong (or right?). The backwards speed is simply so slow that neither game play or realism seem to be proper explanations. It does need to be slower than forward, but should not be this slow. It is just far too slow.

    And just to throw something out there... TRULY RUNNING SIDEWAYS IS HARDER THAN RUNNING BACKWARDS IN REAL LIFE (try to do so without turning most of your body in that direction) so this nerf obviously has nothing to do with being realistic.

    So if you want to keep preaching how great this change is because its realistic you better be fighting for the strafe movement cap too... just because it's realistic.

    Maybe there's a reason we can only RUN forward and walk in all the other directions... that was supposed to be both for balance and be realistic. Walking full speed backwards has proven to be slightly exploitable but I still don't get why it needs to be nerfed this much, a lesser speed decrease would have worked fine.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Members, Constellation
    I've always envisaged strafe-running as running forward but shooting sideways. Modern animations for strafe-running tend to reflect this as well. I'm quite partial to Hollywood physics when it comes to trying to judge how realistic a game should be. There are plenty of movies about where we see people running in directions other than the one they're shooting in.

    That being said, it's rare to see them firing at an angle greater than 90 degrees away from their direction of travel while running.
  • wazups2xwazups2x Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72902Members
    Out of everything in NS2 the slow backwards movement is my biggest problem. It makes it a pain to fight aliens and just feels so awkward.
  • SkiddywinksSkiddywinks Join Date: 2011-01-12 Member: 77239Members
    The aliens move so fast that you shouldn't be relying on walking backwards anyway. It is useful while the aliens are still at range (stop them from getting to you quite as fast as if you were stood still) and you are shooting, but once they are anywhere near you, you should be high tailing it out of there. So unless people want to be able to sprint backwards, I think the reduced backward walk speed is well balanced. Maybe up it to 60% instead of 40%, but definitely no faster.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bl945vIPX8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bl945vIPX8</a>

    The crab walk (or jump) is now the standard marine movement.
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    edited February 2011
    I like the slow backward speed as it is. 1) It gives you the clear choice to run to safety or stay and fight. If you argue this, it's because you just want to shoot while back pedaling all the time, and that removes the tactical choice. At 60% backspeed the "choice" will become to easy and likely unfair to aliens... and at 80%? Pfft! Most people won't even notice it.

    What the OP (Koranu?) may not realize is that when playing as marine you have to be thinking about that skulk fight all the time as you move around rooms and hallways. It's not just running around going "la la la" until you see and skulk and then go "Oh! No a skulk! Better hit 's' and shoot". That's not the intent here. You move always aware of corners and posible ambush points (ideally as a squad). Then, at the point of contact you fight basically from where you are OR run away if back up is nearby.

    Following are some of the best arguments here, and deserve a second reading.

    <!--quoteo(post=1818697:date=Dec 23 2010, 03:50 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Dec 23 2010, 03:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->slow backwards speed is what made NS1 i reckon, its so simple, but is awesome.

    it gives the marines 2 choices:

    1. hold your ground and shoot

    2. turn around and run away

    none of this running backwards at full speed while shooting, its mental.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=1818563:date=Dec 22 2010, 07:03 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Dec 22 2010, 07:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...
    In any case, letting a ranged class move and attack simultaneously when facing a melee opponent enormously and hilariously increases ranged combat efficiency. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=1821709:date=Jan 5 2011, 01:09 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 5 2011, 01:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The idea is that Marines are suppose to advance in a orderly manner, with <b>teammates </b>... and if they wish to retreat from a unfavourable situation they can <i>elect</i> to turn and flee at max speed , or use a slower retreat while still being able to fire.
    The ability to move backwards at nearly the same speed as you advance while retaining the benefit of being able to continue keeping a target in your sights is too powerfull, especially versus a melee favouring opponent.

    The idea is to compel more teamplay, and make solo play unfavourable.

    ....
    In short : Slow back speed is there to force the Marine to choose between full speed retreat without being able to fire or slow retreat while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Also, it seems that most of the people complaining about 40% being too slow for NS2 forget that now you have a fairly strong melee attack as the right-click on the standard marine weapon. That's a big point in this discussion that I've seen no one make. As it's stand in NS2, a basic marine has really good odds of beating a skulk in a 1v1 (unless really surprised) which is fine since skulks spawn much faster. And once the commander rains health the marine will be ready for the next skulk. I don't even want to talk about the ownage that the shotgun can produce. Therefore, I really cannot agree with a marine buff at the moment.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2011
    Hmm you say that i may not realize something, but at the same time you cant even remember my name or at least bring the effort to look it up.

    Nice one... Koranu... maybe add an "s" at the end next time?

    Damn your view of the situation is so good - its all true... we shouldnt be allowed to discuss such a topic! You should design every gameplay aspect - no complains, suggestions or questions, allowed.

    - ok now serious. ^_^

    I dont care anymore*(the suggestion to reduce the slow is there - if uwe cares or not), but next time - look up names, if you try to use them.


    *especially not about other players viewpoints
  • Josh86Josh86 Join Date: 2010-12-06 Member: 75513Members
    I still think the marine movement needs tweaking. I always envisioned marines playing tactically as a team. Aliens play as a team too, but I really think their speed and movement abilities provide the chaos that a skirmish needs. Once lag (or server) issues get sorted, that would be a good time to revisit these kinds of topics. I've always had a little issue with the movement.

    <a href="http://gsfn.us/t/1ynus" target="_blank">http://gsfn.us/t/1ynus</a>

    In most games movement mechanics are one of the things I nitpick on. UWE says they want to hear ideas about what games did things better so that they can improve. The current movement in the game needs to be tweaked in general. I prefer something that handles like Crysis, Battlefield Bad Company 2, etc. These new games, though made for mutliplatform now (I always prefer PC), have a certain fluidity to the player movement and animations that works really really well.
  • BarerRudeROCBarerRudeROC Join Date: 2010-10-01 Member: 74264Members
    edited February 2011
    There's a reason it's called Natural Selection.
    Adapt or Die.
    Get used to it.

    There's also this thing called teamwork.
    Where soldiers take turns dealing damage.
    You know,
    the tactic which works with you and tries to encourage group tactics instead of lone-wolves?
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    What's the mechanism for adaptation in nature, though? "Adapt or die"? No, that's just supernatural nonsense. Those that can survive, will survive, and they will propagate that survival ability down their hereditary line, and thus a species 'adapts'. Your analogy is thus flawed.
    In fact, you can take it one further. Those that don't like it, won't play it. And you're left with the hardcore audience that thinks "this is just how it's meant to be". Thus, natural selection.
    But how is that good business practice?
    Humans are the final product of natural selection, and yet the greatest insult to natural selection. We coddle our elderly and our fat and infirm and our weak and sickly young. There's nothing natural about us, so why would we take nature as the baseline?
    What the hell does that have to do with this topic?
    Nothing really. Just pointing out the flaw in your analogy, and the fact that it goes against any good business sense.
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Members
    edited February 2011
    Koruyo,

    Sorry about getting the name wrong. I meant no offense but I had a fairly epic post there and didn't want to risk losing the text. Didn't expect such a reaction. To be honest you've been quite hostile in this thread and now it's just a mess with no clear discussion going on anymore. Tip for the future, don't REACT to the rude replies but instead RESPOND to the people actually putting effort into the argument.

    Sorry to say this but it does seem to me that there have been several well written arguments pro-40% that explain the core balance reason behind it, but these seem to have just gone ignored.

    Also the con-40% arguments seem to mostly revolve about how "ackward" it feels. How you all feel stuck when you hit 's'. And what some of us have tried to explain is that THAT is precisely the point. This feature makes the game more about thinking AND teamwork. You're not supposed you run blindly into a room and go "oh, skulks" better run away in reverse while shooting. I'm sure it sounds funner, but remember those Aliens are other players and they deserve a fair fight.

    If enough people feel strongly enough about this then why not have a server try it out for a week and return the balance stats. We are in Beta let's Beta this thing up!
  • Delta1Delta1 Join Date: 2009-08-01 Member: 68326Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I honestly dont mind the reduced speed, all it does is make the player think, adapt and improvise
    with the reduced back wards speed i find myself having to rapidly slide left or right, moving in circles jumping. This makes it somewhat difficult to be hit vs skulks and somewhat un-co fades...

    It works quite well, i often find my self ninja'ing without back up and having to rely on thinking "ok i cant retreat, what can i do to survive"
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
  • wazups2xwazups2x Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72902Members
    edited February 2011
    There should at least be small speed increase because as of right now the "S" key is basically worthless. When you move backwards it feels like you're a snail, you just as well get rid of the backwards movement altogether because there is no reason to ever use it.

    I know for a fact that I can walk backwards faster IRL than I can in NS2.
  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Members, Constellation
    edited February 2011
    <!--quoteo(post=1832315:date=Feb 15 2011, 01:45 AM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Feb 15 2011, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1832315"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry to say this but it does seem to me that there have been several well written arguments pro-40% that explain the core balance reason behind it, but these seem to have just gone ignored.

    Also the con-40% arguments seem to mostly revolve about how "ackward" it feels. How you all feel stuck when you hit 's'. And what some of us have tried to explain is that THAT is precisely the point. This feature makes the game more about thinking AND teamwork. You're not supposed you run blindly into a room and go "oh, skulks" better run away in reverse while shooting. I'm sure it sounds funner, but remember those Aliens are other players and they deserve a fair fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well said. I think that just about sums it up.

    I'll just point out that backwards move speed may be "unrealistic" (you can probably backstep faster in reality), but in reality there are other factors to account for that are not implemented into this world. For instance, you've got a very large chance of tripping over your own feet or some other obstacle you can't see when walking backwards. This alone is probably enough to deter any smart individual from opting to run backwards and empty a clip into something clearly faster than you, and instead choose to either face the opponent head on or get as far from that dog-thing as possible. If they were to implement this this feature, I can't imagine ANYONE enjoying it when it happened (well, maybe skulks and immersion enthusiasts), but it would definitely discourage you from ever trying it again. And I imagine that was more or less the intention of the reduced backstep speed feature.

    So well done, UWE.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1835283:date=Feb 28 2011, 07:16 AM:name=wazups2x)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wazups2x @ Feb 28 2011, 07:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835283"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There should at least be small speed increase because as of right now the "S" key is basically worthless. When you move backwards it feels like you're a snail, you just as well get rid of the backwards movement altogether because there is no reason to ever use it.

    I know for a fact that I can walk backwards faster IRL than I can in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ^

    If it's never to be used, you might as well remove it.
  • wazups2xwazups2x Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72902Members
    edited February 2011
    How about instead of slowing down the backwards speed to a crawl just make the accuracy drop while backing up? This way we can walk backwards like a normal human being but there will still be a penalty for walking backwards and shooting. I think that would make everyone happy.
  • SpaZSpaZ Join Date: 2003-06-11 Member: 17256Members
    Dunno how the backwards speed was before the change but I have to say that I didn't notice anything out of place or "getting nailed to the ground" when I played yesterday. Felt normal to me.
    I am an old NS1 player so can't really comment on how the movement feels to newcomers.
  • SwampRatSwampRat Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13369Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1835309:date=Feb 27 2011, 09:46 PM:name=wazups2x)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wazups2x @ Feb 27 2011, 09:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about instead of slowing down the backwards speed to a crawl just make the accuracy drop while backing up? This way we can walk backwards like a normal human being but there will still be a penalty for walking backwards and shooting. I think that would make everyone happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    How about a two speed movement, with effectively a 'backwards sprint' that moves at more like 80% but has a different large negative for shooting?
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1835309:date=Feb 28 2011, 02:46 AM:name=wazups2x)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wazups2x @ Feb 28 2011, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1835309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about instead of slowing down the backwards speed to a crawl just make the accuracy drop while backing up? This way we can walk backwards like a normal human being but there will still be a penalty for walking backwards and shooting. I think that would make everyone happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I like this idea. At the moment the backwards key is basically worthless. With this idea you still have a disadvantage while backing up but it still could be useful in certain situations.
  • ClutchClutch Join Date: 2011-03-18 Member: 87029Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1818697:date=Dec 22 2010, 11:50 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Dec 22 2010, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818697"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->slow backwards speed is what made NS1 i reckon, its so simple, but is awesome.

    it gives the marines 2 choices:

    1. hold your ground and shoot

    2. turn around and run away



    none of this running backwards at full speed while shooting, its mental.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is exactly why the current backpedal speed is FINE. It's set the way it is for a reason.<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> <b>You can stay and fight, or run and live.</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> Increasing the backpedal speed at any rate is just increasing the difficulty rate for the Kharaa.
  • JirikiJiriki retired ns1 player Join Date: 2003-01-04 Member: 11780Members, NS1 Playtester, Squad Five Silver
    edited March 2011
    Whoever said NS1 is slow, was wrong. Is true that NS1 has slow backward speed, but it has bhop and fast strafing which makes it much faster than most games. Way faster than Call of Duty or Battlefield. In fact, soldiers in Bad Company2 feel like blocks of bricks compared to NS1 with all the bhopping abilities. You can't jump at for crap. But yes I agree marines in NS2 do feel slow and its because they don't have a skilled movement system. Having more strafing acceleration and backward speed would be a good start.

    In NS1 if you get surprised by a skulk, you can do backwards-bhop and it gives you enough chance to shoot it if you aim properly. However this is not possible in NS2 and when the skulk surprises you, you get easily surrounded. In NS1, You could also outsmart a fast bhhopping skulk by strafing (mind games) and then bhopping over a rail, increasing the distance between you and the skulk.

    Maybe <a href="http://www.ensl.org/files/videos/NR_stalk-wltrs_by_kranG_preview.mp4" target="_blank">this</a> shows a bit of what I'm talking about. That was a long time ago though.
  • ThaldarinThaldarin Alonzi&#33; Join Date: 2003-07-15 Member: 18173Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo(post=1837983:date=Mar 20 2011, 02:39 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 20 2011, 02:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1837983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In fact, soldiers in Bad Company2 feel like blocks of bricks compared to NS1 with all the bhopping abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think that's because soldiers are weighed down by their equipment and aren't able to jump around like gymnasts on a trampoline.
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