Not a huge difference - changing the speeds doesn't change much, but then, your estimates for the skulk moving at 10 units/s and the marine fullspeed moving at 4 units/s are dodgy.
Let's make it 7 and 5*: *this comes from the skulk.lua and player.lua (which marine.lua references) files: <!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Player.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5 // Four miles an hour = 6,437 meters/hour = 1.8 meters/second (increase for FPS tastes)
Skulk.kMaxSpeed = 7<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
(7-5)t0 = 5 t0 = 2.5 seconds @ 100% backwalk
(7-5*0.4)t1 = 5 t1 = 1 seconds @ 40% backwalk This is a *huge* difference, this time clearly skewed towards the skulk. Too skewed, imo.
Let's say that, keeping maxmovespeeds at 7 and 5, we want the time difference to only be half, as a <b>minimum</b>. t0 = 2.5, t1/t0 = 1/2, then t1 = 1.25 (7-5*x)*1.25 = 5 8.75 - 6.25x = 5 x = (8.75-5)/6.25 x = 0.6 i.e. 60% backwalk speed <b>minimum</b>
Whatever the speed is finally tweaked to it must present a clear choice to the marine , slow retreat while being able to keep your target in sight or turn your back to the enemy and run off <b>much</b> faster.
Marines do have mechinisms encouraging teamwork , like waypoints and squads. Medpacks and ammo are handed out as rewards for being where the comm wanted you to be etc etc. You dont need to use military squad tactics to be effective as a marine team, just go as a group is often effective even against groups of aliens... even blinking Fades , you should at this time have at least shotguns researched.
By inhibiting the solo marine, group work is encouraged. NS isnt ( shouldnt be ?!? ) a run n' gun game , it is about which team can get it together and work together better.
The circle strafing ( with or without jumping ) is something that must be addressed I agree , but not by increasing the backward speed to a point its a viable attack option ... always force that choice , slow retreat while being able to keep your target in sight or turn your back to the enemy and run off much faster.
BTW: I do know 'how 2 play', and the reason NS2HD can get so many kills in that video is because hit reg isnt as good as it should be, there was a lot of cover, the marines were already losing at that point, quiet a few had just spawned in and other aliens were attacking priority targets ( IIRC ).
I play both sides equally , about the only thing I dont play much is a Fade ... prefer Skulk or Lerk, or Gorge. I check which team could use a hand and join that team when I eneter a server... games are more fun when both sides have a chance to win.
<!--quoteo(post=1821973:date=Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines do have mechinisms encouraging teamwork , like waypoints and squads. Medpacks and ammo are handed out as rewards for being where the comm wanted you to be etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's not the same thing as what you said before, "advance in an orderly manner" - marines do not have tools in-game for this, nor is it anywhere near as effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1821973:date=Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By inhibiting the solo marine, group work is encouraged. NS isnt ( shouldnt be ?!? ) a run n' gun game , it is about which team can get it together and work together better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will counter with: What? The aliens aren't a team too? Surely a skulk shouldn't be rewarded for going rambo? How shall we inhibit aliens then?
Just the idea of encouraging certain behaviours through punishment or limitation disgusts me, encouragement should be through reward.
Teamwork does not have the limited definition of "Hey everybody, let's hold hands!". Teamwork is instead, a number of different groups working differently towards the same goal - ideally directed by the commander.
IF you go as a group its advancing in a orderly manner, as opposed to scattering around the to 'wtfbbqpwn' everyone.
The alien team in NS has always had a individualistic approach, its what makes NS's teams asymmetrical ( amongst other things ) however it is noticable how more effective the aliens are when working as a team or at least having thier effort co ordinated on a particular objective.
It isnt a punishment or limitation , anymore than requiring the players to change mags, or conserve ammo its a gameplay rule to shape the gameplay to the designers ideas. Its not like theres a huge shortage of running and gunning games out there that allow you full movement , where you can 'wtfbbqpwn' all the 'noobs'.
Marines , TSA , a military team - orderly , methodolical in approaching objectives , squadbased tactic.
Aliens , organic , a freeflowing team that work together in a haphazard manner, seemingly more as a coinicidence than a planned out assualt. ( this is also encouraged via the aliens abilities, example the Lerks spores also assist the Skulks and Fades , the Gorges healspray heals buildings and units but is weak when confronted directly so Gorges work with other aliens ).
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Trying to figure out why skulks are ripping marines apart. All the numbers are the same, but the engine is different? DM thoughts to me! about 3 hours ago<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Backward speed reduction is so imbalanced that UWE is finally noticing it. I also suspect their problem is that they have been repeatedly nerfing the marine side of the game in every patch even though kharaa were op to begin with.
If you want a game where solo players can 'wtfbbqpwn' noobs all day long, I suggest CoD:Black Ops. Its apparently a excellent game that allows individuals to shine through solo play, failing that you could try ..oh I dont know, virtually every other multiplayer FPS game out there these days instead.
Stop thinking OMG I cant outmanovour these skulks and slaughter them by myself , and more hey let me go with those teammates of mine prehaps togther we can do stuff.
I hardly notice the lack of a speedy run backwards while shooting , I strafe side to side instead , I hop at the last second when a Skulk bites at me , I help teammates to kill skulks. Stop worrying about dancing around the skulks, they are the agile little buggers not the marines.
Aliens should be able to solo rambo perfectly + get hughe benefits if working in a group.
While marines should only be effective in a group, and be extra gimped in solo situations.
hmm which side is more fun and rewarding to play?
PS: One thing besides the backspeed<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b> is the lack of managing energy as alien - you dont really have to, ever.(And adrenaline isnt even in yet :X)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Its not a 1 v 1 game, the 1 v 1 is not suppose to be balanced ... if it was that would encourage rambos and solo play.
A solo marine caught by himself/herself should be skulk bait , most of the time... as long as the Skulk has some skill ( ie doesnt just rush at the marine down a long corridor in plain sight of the marine ).
A group of Marines outfitted properly will on the other hand be more deadlier than a equal or even more number of aliens in a head on fight, then Aliens must use run and hit tactics to wear down the Marine squad, pick off slower marines if possible ... that type of thing. In short a squad of balanced Marines will defeat a group of aliens in a straight up fight, but a solo marine is ripe for picking off.
In the current build its possible to see how deadly a group of marines with GL and Flamers are, where a single marine even with a GL or even a flamer can be easily taken down.
Take a group of aliens , a mix of Skulks , Lerks and Fades and have them battle<b> head on</b> a group of Marines with GL's, Shotties and Flamers with an attentive Comm ... Aliens will lose majority of such encounters, as they should.
Koruyo I agree the Alien energy isnt properly working yet, especially the Lerk and that the Lerks rapid spikes and spore should consume at least twice as much energy as it does now... doesnt mean we must unfix the marines backspeed, though I am not saying that the current speed is optimal but fixes in the lag and hit reg may change how the speed effects marine play. Currently you need to make space as most of the bullets are not landing/registering thus the backspeed seems crippling but if the reg was better, Skulks would drop faster and you wouldnt need to backpedal as much.
Obviously I am not a dev nor have UWE design papers that outline the ideas, this is just my interpretation of the gameplay in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1822447:date=Jan 7 2011, 10:29 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 7 2011, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822447"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its not a 1 v 1 game, the 1 v 1 is not suppose to be balanced ... if it was that would encourage rambos and solo play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1v1 for the basic, un-upgraded units that you get at the start of every game should absolutely be balanced! That's a key requirement for a competitive multiplayer game to be fun. No, this does not encourage ramboing, because rambo will be taking on the entire enemy team by himself and will get owned even if he's balanced 1v1.
Before you start a religion, I would like to say that NS1 was not balanced 1v1 marine vs skulk, it was balanced > fade > shotgun > lerk > marine > skulk
In other words first you need higher number of skulks to take out marine -> with lerk marines needed more than 1 -> sg denied aggressive lerking -> fade marines had to group up tight -> all the way to the last phase fades vs JP's.
<!--quoteo(post=1822453:date=Jan 7 2011, 10:48 PM:name=TrC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TrC @ Jan 7 2011, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822453"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In other words first you need higher number of skulks to take out marine<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the skulk got more badass since NS1, I think there's a quote from UW somewhere saying they want it to be more powerful in the sequel.
Another problem i have to add besides the adrenaline managment is footsteps - there are none.(or not loud enough/range to hear them too short) => BIG BIG ISSUE
<!--quoteo(post=1822111:date=Jan 7 2011, 12:10 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 7 2011, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Backward speed reduction is so imbalanced that UWE is finally noticing it. I also suspect their problem is that they have been repeatedly nerfing the marine side of the game in every patch even though kharaa were op to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sure the devs would be far more interested in why you think Kharaa are OP, rather than one-line assertions with zero justification. At least if you explain yourself they have enough info to agree/disagree. When devs see subjective, non-descriptive one liners like 'blah blah is OP' the instant response is to disregard it.
I am actually genuinely interested in your reasoning.
<!--quoteo(post=1822111:date=Jan 7 2011, 12:10 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 7 2011, 12:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822111"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Backward speed reduction is so imbalanced that UWE is finally noticing it. I also suspect their problem is that they have been repeatedly nerfing the marine side of the game in every patch even though kharaa were op to begin with.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure performance and hit reg issues has nothing to do with it and you're 100% correct.
<!--quoteo(post=1822450:date=Jan 7 2011, 04:37 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Jan 7 2011, 04:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1v1 for the basic, un-upgraded units that you get at the start of every game should absolutely be balanced! That's a key requirement for a competitive multiplayer game to be fun. No, this does not encourage ramboing, because rambo will be taking on the entire enemy team by himself and will get owned even if he's balanced 1v1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A TEAM competitive multiplayer game has no such requirement. What's so different about early game compared to late game? In NS1, alien higher lifeforms were way stronger than marine HA/JPs 1v1. There's no reason two teams can't be balanced around one team having better solo capabilities than the other.
<!--quoteo(post=1827196:date=Jan 25 2011, 07:46 PM:name=B1ackSmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1ackSmoke @ Jan 25 2011, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you ever heard of anyone in real life running backwards as fast as they can run forward??? No? Well there you go!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've never seen aliens before either, that's why i like playing video games.. they don't place in reality. balance discussion is pointless they haven't added heavies or jetpacks or onos yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1827196:date=Jan 25 2011, 05:46 PM:name=B1ackSmoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (B1ackSmoke @ Jan 25 2011, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you ever heard of anyone in real life running backwards as fast as they can run forward??? No? Well there you go!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not asking to run backwards, just walk the same speed backwards as you do while moving forward.
Also, this game is far from realistic so why do you care about one random thing like this?
To be realistic about it too, you can't really sprint backwards while you're aiming down your sights in real life.. and if you were in some messed up space station thing on mars I'd go even slower so I wouldn't trip over some crap. The NS1 style movement is great and it balances it more anyways, since people complain about the melee being a disadvantage over guns. I don't get why bunnyhopping and strife jumping is so dead ::: P
I've only seen it in Doom2, TFC, some hl1 mods, etc. but as a somewhat oldschool gamer it seems like in modern games it's been phased out and might even be possible because there's not limitation on it. No one cares enough to push themselves to the limit and fly around at 1000 miles per hour I guess. But the point is yeah you're meant to be vulnerable because these aliens can rip you to shreds and us humans have nothing but advanced guns and weapons to fight back. Naturally we aren't strong enough to fight elephants and things that have claws very well, unless you're raised as a spartan or something.. and yeah you can probably do a couple bhops when you're up against a skulk to gain distance.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1822884:date=Jan 9 2011, 06:24 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Crispy @ Jan 9 2011, 06:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure the devs would be far more interested in why you think Kharaa are OP, rather than one-line assertions with zero justification. At least if you explain yourself they have enough info to agree/disagree. When devs see subjective, non-descriptive one liners like 'blah blah is OP' the instant response is to disregard it.
I am actually genuinely interested in your reasoning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skulk two-hit killing marines seemed to be the biggest issue that has been mostly resolved. But other problems I see are the automatic building/healing of kharaa structures, the instant/free upgrades, and the small profiles of the skulks and lerks. The imbalance is much less in B162 as UWE has solved or lessened many of these problems.
However, I still don't think the reduced backwards speed is necessary, and it has the unintended side effect of promoting awkward marine movement. I'm constantly finding myself using a sideways bunny hopping/circling movement when fighting skulks out of necessity. Its both silly and unnecessary if UWE returns marine movement back to its original speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1822919:date=Jan 9 2011, 09:56 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 9 2011, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure performance and hit reg issues has nothing to do with it and you're 100% correct.
/facepalm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but its not a one-sided affair. Performance/hit reg issues affect both marines AND aliens, therefore, as the lag is reduced both sides should get better equally. Thats why I don't buy the 'less lag will makes marines better' argument. It will also improve alien hit reg about as much, negating most of the marine hit reg improvement.
In my opinion, strafing + backpedalling should still create the same total velocity as moving in any other non-backwards direction. Yes this would mean that strafe+back would result in a non 45 degree angle movement, but I'm okay with that.
It allows for other behaviours such as: - Course-correcting during a circle strafe. - Keeping your enemy in your periphery while tacking backwards (backing up by zig-zag strafing backwards towards).
Conceptually, the only scenario that really needs to be avoided here is the one where a marine can maintain full damage output on a target that is chasing them while also running away at full speed. When combinining the back & strafe keys, the marine isn't in this "best of both worlds" situation and thus doesn't need to be punished with a lower total velocity.
Slow down marine movement to a reasonable jog, and give them a "run faster" button that only works in the forward direction and disables their gun while in use. It will continue to force marines to choose between running OR fighting, and might placate all the newcomers who think they're being nerfed.
EDIT: I'm not calling it sprint because the notion I'm putting across is that you can "run faster" as much as you want. You're essentially toggling between movement and combat modes. Heck, this button could actually be labelled "Holster weapon", where conceptually you're slinging your gun over your shoulder so you can run unencumbered.
<!--quoteo(post=1818160:date=Dec 21 2010, 10:29 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 21 2010, 10:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1818160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are kidding.... right? As if the ability to leap, fly, blink, bellyslide, (the onos run) + overall faster movement speed(exept gorge) wasnt enough mobility...
Ya marines shouldnt be able to outmove a noob fade(fade that runs after you for 60s because he is crappy at aiming and movement, without blinking away or replenish his health somewhere), you are right... marines need to turn around and show their back or jump into alien teeth cause we are super tanks... no problem, its not like we can get one or two hitted by almost every alien lifeform.
I dont say its unplayable - i still get #1 kill marine scoreboard... but this slow doesnt feel right.
Fade stronger WTF, dunno how you play fade but i RARELY die if im not super greedy.
Marines have range? Thats why aliens got blink leap fly etc... and possibly a onos stun in the future... wtf im not a turret. Smart aliens dont run a straight line from a far distance to a marines, they jump them at corners or short corridors. (or ambush)
Ya group play, 3 skulks run around the corner all marines turn around show their back or try to jump over/around the aliens to get some space - big improvement in movement freedom.
Usually i would make a few steps backwards while shooting, but atm its like im glued to the ground...
All i can do atm is try to jump over the alien or 360° jump/strafe moves...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post aggravated me.
Successful troll is successful.
There is far from enough mobility in NS2 right now.
Making somebody walk slower makes a lot more sense than other games, and yes it's not intuitive because of today's FPSes, but it really works into balance correctly. As is once the framerate increases for most people and aircontrol is in place, a marine can probably take down at least 3 skulks unless he's ambushed. The only options to get away are jumping aside like in NS1 or sprinting somewhere then aiming again. Being able to move and shoot is a huge advantage, especially in the early skulk v marine game. NS had the same slow movespeed backwards but relied on strafe jumps that cost you some aiming time to perform in order to dodge. Just because every other FPS has the ridiculous 100% movespeed in any direction (run speed backwards, but don't worry you never trip) doesn't mean NS can't change it to have a balanced aspect. It increases the skill level, is intuitive to real life (not FPSes), and is a small balance in the game. I say deal with it, it actually makes it possibly for the incredibly slow fade 2nd attack to ever connect on people who try to run backwards.
Major backwards slowdowns were commonplace a few years ago. I think console games are partly to blame for this change. I always prefer slowdowns since it prevents some seriously lame gameplay against melee oriented classes.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2011
<!--quoteo(post=1827882:date=Jan 28 2011, 08:45 AM:name=Karrde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karrde @ Jan 28 2011, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1827882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Major backwards slowdowns were commonplace a few years ago. I think console games are partly to blame for this change. I always prefer slowdowns since it prevents some seriously lame gameplay against melee oriented classes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Interesting... I don't play console games, so I didn't know that.
But if the marines were to move at full speed in all directions, the melee aliens would need to play in third person view, as it is difficult to track fast moving marines in close range, and the obstructive Skulk Mouth Cam would have to be removed.
Comments
@Chris: Leap. That closes the majority of the distance.
So, the distance you've shown (30 units) is clearly too large.
Let's make it 5 units (1.8 metres in the game*).
So:
(10-4)t0=5
t0 = 0.83333 seconds
@ 100% backwalk
(10-4*0.4)t1 = 5
t1 = 0.595 seconds
@ 40% backwalk
Not a huge difference - changing the speeds doesn't change much, but then, your estimates for the skulk moving at 10 units/s and the marine fullspeed moving at 4 units/s are dodgy.
Let's make it 7 and 5*:
*this comes from the skulk.lua and player.lua (which marine.lua references) files:
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->Player.kWalkMaxSpeed = 5 // Four miles an hour = 6,437 meters/hour = 1.8 meters/second (increase for FPS tastes)
Skulk.kMaxSpeed = 7<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
(7-5)t0 = 5
t0 = 2.5 seconds
@ 100% backwalk
(7-5*0.4)t1 = 5
t1 = 1 seconds
@ 40% backwalk
This is a *huge* difference, this time clearly skewed towards the skulk. Too skewed, imo.
Let's say that, keeping maxmovespeeds at 7 and 5, we want the time difference to only be half, as a <b>minimum</b>.
t0 = 2.5, t1/t0 = 1/2, then t1 = 1.25
(7-5*x)*1.25 = 5
8.75 - 6.25x = 5
x = (8.75-5)/6.25
x = 0.6
i.e. 60% backwalk speed <b>minimum</b>
Marines do have mechinisms encouraging teamwork , like waypoints and squads. Medpacks and ammo are handed out as rewards for being where the comm wanted you to be etc etc.
You dont need to use military squad tactics to be effective as a marine team, just go as a group is often effective even against groups of aliens... even blinking Fades , you should at this time have at least shotguns researched.
By inhibiting the solo marine, group work is encouraged. NS isnt ( shouldnt be ?!? ) a run n' gun game , it is about which team can get it together and work together better.
The circle strafing ( with or without jumping ) is something that must be addressed I agree , but not by increasing the backward speed to a point its a viable attack option ... always force that choice , slow retreat while being able to keep your target in sight or turn your back to the enemy and run off much faster.
BTW: I do know 'how 2 play', and the reason NS2HD can get so many kills in that video is because hit reg isnt as good as it should be, there was a lot of cover, the marines were already losing at that point, quiet a few had just spawned in and other aliens were attacking priority targets ( IIRC ).
I play both sides equally , about the only thing I dont play much is a Fade ... prefer Skulk or Lerk, or Gorge. I check which team could use a hand and join that team when I eneter a server... games are more fun when both sides have a chance to win.
That's not the same thing as what you said before, "advance in an orderly manner" - marines do not have tools in-game for this, nor is it anywhere near as effective.
<!--quoteo(post=1821973:date=Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM:name=ASnogarD)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASnogarD @ Jan 6 2011, 08:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1821973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->By inhibiting the solo marine, group work is encouraged. NS isnt ( shouldnt be ?!? ) a run n' gun game , it is about which team can get it together and work together better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will counter with: What? The aliens aren't a team too? Surely a skulk shouldn't be rewarded for going rambo? How shall we inhibit aliens then?
Just the idea of encouraging certain behaviours through punishment or limitation disgusts me, encouragement should be through reward.
Teamwork does not have the limited definition of "Hey everybody, let's hold hands!". Teamwork is instead, a number of different groups working differently towards the same goal - ideally directed by the commander.
The alien team in NS has always had a individualistic approach, its what makes NS's teams asymmetrical ( amongst other things ) however it is noticable how more effective the aliens are when working as a team or at least having thier effort co ordinated on a particular objective.
It isnt a punishment or limitation , anymore than requiring the players to change mags, or conserve ammo its a gameplay rule to shape the gameplay to the designers ideas. Its not like theres a huge shortage of running and gunning games out there that allow you full movement , where you can 'wtfbbqpwn' all the 'noobs'.
Marines , TSA , a military team - orderly , methodolical in approaching objectives , squadbased tactic.
Aliens , organic , a freeflowing team that work together in a haphazard manner, seemingly more as a coinicidence than a planned out assualt. ( this is also encouraged via the aliens abilities, example the Lerks spores also assist the Skulks and Fades , the Gorges healspray heals buildings and units but is weak when confronted directly so Gorges work with other aliens ).
Backward speed reduction is so imbalanced that UWE is finally noticing it. I also suspect their problem is that they have been repeatedly nerfing the marine side of the game in every patch even though kharaa were op to begin with.
Stop thinking OMG I cant outmanovour these skulks and slaughter them by myself , and more hey let me go with those teammates of mine prehaps togther we can do stuff.
I hardly notice the lack of a speedy run backwards while shooting , I strafe side to side instead , I hop at the last second when a Skulk bites at me , I help teammates to kill skulks.
Stop worrying about dancing around the skulks, they are the agile little buggers not the marines.
Aliens should be able to solo rambo perfectly + get hughe benefits if working in a group.
While marines should only be effective in a group, and be extra gimped in solo situations.
hmm which side is more fun and rewarding to play?
PS: One thing besides the backspeed<!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b> is the lack of managing energy as alien - you dont really have to, ever.(And adrenaline isnt even in yet :X)</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A solo marine caught by himself/herself should be skulk bait , most of the time... as long as the Skulk has some skill ( ie doesnt just rush at the marine down a long corridor in plain sight of the marine ).
A group of Marines outfitted properly will on the other hand be more deadlier than a equal or even more number of aliens in a head on fight, then Aliens must use run and hit tactics to wear down the Marine squad, pick off slower marines if possible ... that type of thing.
In short a squad of balanced Marines will defeat a group of aliens in a straight up fight, but a solo marine is ripe for picking off.
In the current build its possible to see how deadly a group of marines with GL and Flamers are, where a single marine even with a GL or even a flamer can be easily taken down.
Take a group of aliens , a mix of Skulks , Lerks and Fades and have them battle<b> head on</b> a group of Marines with GL's, Shotties and Flamers with an attentive Comm ... Aliens will lose majority of such encounters, as they should.
Koruyo I agree the Alien energy isnt properly working yet, especially the Lerk and that the Lerks rapid spikes and spore should consume at least twice as much energy as it does now... doesnt mean we must unfix the marines backspeed, though I am not saying that the current speed is optimal but fixes in the lag and hit reg may change how the speed effects marine play.
Currently you need to make space as most of the bullets are not landing/registering thus the backspeed seems crippling but if the reg was better, Skulks would drop faster and you wouldnt need to backpedal as much.
Obviously I am not a dev nor have UWE design papers that outline the ideas, this is just my interpretation of the gameplay in NS.
1v1 for the basic, un-upgraded units that you get at the start of every game should absolutely be balanced! That's a key requirement for a competitive multiplayer game to be fun. No, this does not encourage ramboing, because rambo will be taking on the entire enemy team by himself and will get owned even if he's balanced 1v1.
In other words first you need higher number of skulks to take out marine -> with lerk marines needed more than 1 -> sg denied aggressive lerking -> fade marines had to group up tight -> all the way to the last phase fades vs JP's.
the skulk got more badass since NS1, I think there's a quote from UW somewhere saying they want it to be more powerful in the sequel.
I am actually genuinely interested in your reasoning.
I'm sure performance and hit reg issues has nothing to do with it and you're 100% correct.
/facepalm
A TEAM competitive multiplayer game has no such requirement. What's so different about early game compared to late game? In NS1, alien higher lifeforms were way stronger than marine HA/JPs 1v1. There's no reason two teams can't be balanced around one team having better solo capabilities than the other.
Just stop with your ns1 stuff... ns2 is ns2 and not only a copy of ns1 with new gfx.
i've never seen aliens before either, that's why i like playing video games.. they don't place in reality.
balance discussion is pointless they haven't added heavies or jetpacks or onos yet.
We're not asking to run backwards, just walk the same speed backwards as you do while moving forward.
Also, this game is far from realistic so why do you care about one random thing like this?
I've only seen it in Doom2, TFC, some hl1 mods, etc. but as a somewhat oldschool gamer it seems like in modern games it's been phased out and might even be possible because there's not limitation on it. No one cares enough to push themselves to the limit and fly around at 1000 miles per hour I guess. But the point is yeah you're meant to be vulnerable because these aliens can rip you to shreds and us humans have nothing but advanced guns and weapons to fight back. Naturally we aren't strong enough to fight elephants and things that have claws very well, unless you're raised as a spartan or something.. and yeah you can probably do a couple bhops when you're up against a skulk to gain distance.
I am actually genuinely interested in your reasoning.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The skulk two-hit killing marines seemed to be the biggest issue that has been mostly resolved. But other problems I see are the automatic building/healing of kharaa structures, the instant/free upgrades, and the small profiles of the skulks and lerks. The imbalance is much less in B162 as UWE has solved or lessened many of these problems.
However, I still don't think the reduced backwards speed is necessary, and it has the unintended side effect of promoting awkward marine movement. I'm constantly finding myself using a sideways bunny hopping/circling movement when fighting skulks out of necessity. Its both silly and unnecessary if UWE returns marine movement back to its original speed.
<!--quoteo(post=1822919:date=Jan 9 2011, 09:56 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jan 9 2011, 09:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1822919"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure performance and hit reg issues has nothing to do with it and you're 100% correct.
/facepalm<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It does, but its not a one-sided affair. Performance/hit reg issues affect both marines AND aliens, therefore, as the lag is reduced both sides should get better equally. Thats why I don't buy the 'less lag will makes marines better' argument. It will also improve alien hit reg about as much, negating most of the marine hit reg improvement.
It allows for other behaviours such as:
- Course-correcting during a circle strafe.
- Keeping your enemy in your periphery while tacking backwards (backing up by zig-zag strafing backwards towards).
Conceptually, the only scenario that really needs to be avoided here is the one where a marine can maintain full damage output on a target that is chasing them while also running away at full speed. When combinining the back & strafe keys, the marine isn't in this "best of both worlds" situation and thus doesn't need to be punished with a lower total velocity.
Slow down marine movement to a reasonable jog, and give them a "run faster" button that only works in the forward direction and disables their gun while in use. It will continue to force marines to choose between running OR fighting, and might placate all the newcomers who think they're being nerfed.
EDIT: I'm not calling it sprint because the notion I'm putting across is that you can "run faster" as much as you want. You're essentially toggling between movement and combat modes. Heck, this button could actually be labelled "Holster weapon", where conceptually you're slinging your gun over your shoulder so you can run unencumbered.
Ya marines shouldnt be able to outmove a noob fade(fade that runs after you for 60s because he is crappy at aiming and movement, without blinking away or replenish his health somewhere), you are right... marines need to turn around and show their back or jump into alien teeth cause we are super tanks... no problem, its not like we can get one or two hitted by almost every alien lifeform.
I dont say its unplayable - i still get #1 kill marine scoreboard... but this slow doesnt feel right.
Fade stronger WTF, dunno how you play fade but i RARELY die if im not super greedy.
Marines have range? Thats why aliens got blink leap fly etc... and possibly a onos stun in the future... wtf im not a turret.
Smart aliens dont run a straight line from a far distance to a marines, they jump them at corners or short corridors. (or ambush)
Ya group play, 3 skulks run around the corner all marines turn around show their back or try to jump over/around the aliens to get some space - big improvement in movement freedom.
Usually i would make a few steps backwards while shooting, but atm its like im glued to the ground...
All i can do atm is try to jump over the alien or 360° jump/strafe moves...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This post aggravated me.
Successful troll is successful.
There is far from enough mobility in NS2 right now.
Interesting... I don't play console games, so I didn't know that.
But if the marines were to move at full speed in all directions, the melee aliens would need to play in third person view, as it is difficult to track fast moving marines in close range, and the obstructive Skulk Mouth Cam would have to be removed.