I do know what you can do in real battle gear, I've been in army, but I want depth in video games. If I want realism I play OFP, not SSBM, Quake3 or NS1. Or Starcraft.
Yeah, competitive players have consensus on a lot things that can be considered depth. You can argue that this is just conincidence of course, and of course there will always be preferences underneath. Some people want NS to be like WoW with character development. Some want it be like Starcraft. They are very different paths.
But the problem is that its hard to see depth. I don't know if you are a classical pianist, but assuming you are not, I doubt you have much more to say about some Liszt etude than I do. Or avant garde art, whatever. That is because we are not experts on the subject, we cannot see the same stuff than those who are, do see in it. I happen to play piano, and I've learnt to hear things in songs that I didn't hear before. These are called <i>patterns</i>, and foundation of all knowledge.
The same thing is in chess. When <i>you</i> look at the chessboard, you are not going to see all the complexities that a Bob Fischer sees in it. If someone would suggest taking all duplicate units out of the chess game, you might say that it doesn't remove depth but <i>how</i> would you know. Fischer would probably know better than anyone here how removing two soldier from the game would affect it.
Same applies to NS, there're patterns that you start to see after play a lot of competitive games and you start to understand where the depth in this game. This kind of understanding, like musical analysis, cannot be put on in any forum post, you have to have learn to appreciate it.
This is one of the reasons I've most gave up on arguing about some aspects of this game. Without competitive understanding of the game, we're going to argue from very different premises, and the discussion won't really move forward.
Jiriki, NS and gaming isn't just about competitive play. Like all games, it's not about catering to the competitive community and appeasing the hardcore e-gamers, all the time. You can't like everything, you can't dislike everything, but whining constantly about bunnyhopping is getting real boring now. I don't know how many times these forums have heard it.
"Bunnyhopping adds depth"... "bunnyhopping speed the game up"... "bunnyhopping allows you to do this"... "bunnyhopping means you can't do this"..
Well, it's not your game to create. If the movement can be modified post 1.0 release in the form of a mod go ahead and do so, although, I think it's about time people put their hymn sheets away and started living with what they've got.
<!--quoteo(post=1838021:date=Mar 21 2011, 12:30 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 21 2011, 12:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838021"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny Hopping has nothing to do with depth, realism, pro gaming or otherwise. Nore does speed.
It is just one aspect of a very big game that is inherently complex.
Get over it, you are not the target audience because the audience is just that. More than one person.
Anyone thinking so is wrong, it is as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We, the testers, are here to offer CONSTUCTIVE critizism and to report bugs. (mostly the latter) Get off their (UWE crew) backs and get behind them.. Have some fn respeketah!
Didn't realise Starcraft had bunny hop, or CS (huge in Korea) or WoW...
Actually, which successful competitive games out there have bunny hop Jiriki?
I tell you what though, the thing that killed off games like CS were scripts and exploits. The professional scene was constantly arguing amongst itself, because if it wasn't accusations of hacking, it was rates, and if it wasn't rates it was scripts, and if it wasn't scripts it was something else.
People got fed up with it, because the HL engine allows for so much tinkering. That is why you need a game that supports a fair playing field, not allowing for silly scripts or stupid movement methods.
What Runteh said. Waiting until some wannabe new age pro kid will come in and say we are all wrong... and scripts + crappy movement mechanics are - oh so - important for pc gaming...
PS: why is my dead thread back up again - and why is bunnyhop discussed in here?
In any successful competitive game, the determining factor is <b>skill</b>, however there are many kinds of skill. Ultimately the argument here is over the balance and importance of each skill. Just look at the range of competitive, skill-based games out there.
<b>First-person shooters</b> like Counter-Strike and Unreal Tournament emphasize <b>Technical Skill</b> above all else with their ultra-responsive movement and shooting mechanics and advanced techniques like bhopping. I like to call this Twitch-gaming, as the best players are determined by reaction time, reflexes, and coordination; they aren't required to be strategists.
<b>Turn-based</b> mind-games like Chess and Poker are at the other end of the spectrum, and emphasize <b>Intellectual Skill</b>. The most important skill you can possess is knowledge. Knowing your opponents moves before he does can effectively win you the game before the first move is ever made. The Japanese (apparently) call this <a href="http://"this%20<a%20href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html""%20target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-...nent.html"</a>" target="_blank">Yomi</a>. The best players do not require any physical/technical skill whatsoever; an amputee would best an octopus at Chess any day (get that picture in your head).
<b>Real-time strategy</b> games StarCraft and Street Fighter (yes, Street Fighter is technically an RTS) are highly competitive games with a mix of both technical skill and mental prowess. The best players benefit from having more information than their opponent (Valuation and Yomi), but also the technical wherewithal to execute their strategies effectively. You can know exactly what moves your opponent will attempt to make, but if you can't react fast enough to counter it, you're as good as dead. Inversely, landing the combination to fire a Hadouken every time is useless if you're opponent knows what you're doing and is smart enough to close the gap between you two.
These are all competitive games in their own right, and I wouldn't say that one has a vastly higher skill cap than the other, yet the type of skill required differs greatly. Clearly, <b>being a mix of FPS and RTS, a successful NS2 should aim for the middle</b>, providing a balance between the Technical skillset and Intellectual skillset lest they inhibit or fracture their player-base.
<b>Personally</b>, I prefer games that have an equal balance of Technical Skill and Intellectual Skill, ultimately because I do not believe in encouraging extremism. As someone's signature here posits, specialization (being the very best at only one aspect) hinders evolution/inhibits growth. Games that balance technical skill and intellectual skill bridge the gap between the two views and have the potential to attract a wider player base while weeding out the die-hardest of extremists/elitists that (regardless of their field of expertise) tend to be very arrogant, rigid, and close-minded, which is not what a community needs to grow.
<!--quoteo(post=1838040:date=Mar 20 2011, 09:28 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Mar 20 2011, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838040"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Didn't realise Starcraft had bunny hop, or CS (huge in Korea) or WoW...
Actually, which successful competitive games out there have bunny hop Jiriki?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which successful games have wave dashing? Answer is: one game, SSBM. Yet it adds hugely to that game. My friend plays all these crazy japanese 2d fighters, and each of them are super hard and probably have techniques that have not been in any other fighting games. There're lots of things beyond bunnyhop that can be done wrong to cut off competitive aspects. Bunnyhop is just a tip of the iceberg. Some of the other features require subconscious understanding to judge them objectively, just like in chess, tennis, music whatever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People got fed up with it, because the HL engine allows for so much tinkering. That is why you need a game that supports a fair playing field, not allowing for silly scripts or stupid movement methods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nobody is talking about scripts here. You can still have bhop and almost all competitive aspects of ns without scripts. This is not the issue.
And as far as movement methods and their value go; here's a question: which gameplay aspects of SC2 do you think <i>you</i> can judge? I think I cannot judge any of them. I am not qualified. Sure I could say a lot of things about SC2, but any time of the day I'd agree pro sc2 players know the game better than I ever will, and their opinions would be much more qualified. I value the knowledge they have gained of the game by mastering its techniques.
I was gona write a long reply agreeing with Jiriki but I guess I'll just make it a short one. People seem to have this mentality that being an accurate shot is everything that an FPS game is about. I won't argue how important that is, however there used to be a time when being a quick thinker and dodging your opponent was actually an element of game play too. It was what separated the more experienced players from those not used to typical fps games (aka noobs). Why is it these days that everyone seems to whine over an opponent who's capable of dodging you? We might as well throw in aim assist while we're at it to keep up with the times...
I don't know but I am able to dodge Skulks quiet fine. Not for ever but long enough to place some hits. Even witht reduced backwards speed. If you just stand and shoot you're dead (aka a noob, as we know now) I really don't see why dodging or movement is suddenly impossible because we face a reduced backwards speed... It's just different, not totally skill-less.
Reminds me on the multiple-buildings-selection an infinite-unit-selection in SC2. When this detail reached the internet all the boards were full of self-apointed pros who doomed SC2 to be a skill-less game. Different game, different genre, same issue.
<!--quoteo(post=1838039:date=Mar 20 2011, 06:21 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 20 2011, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can imagine what Teamliquid would be feeling if you guys were designing Starcraft 2.
Trust me. In the end, it won't be just competitive players who will be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1838064:date=Mar 20 2011, 04:25 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 20 2011, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of the other features require subconscious understanding to judge them objectively, just like in chess, tennis, music whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Claiming that understanding these aspects requires some <i>subsconscious understanding</i> makes them sound elevated and inherently unreachable by anyone other than those who are blessed enough to <i>just understand it</i>. This allows you to shrug off any contestation someone of a differing opinion might be able to offer. I'm not claiming you're doing it with some deliberate intention, but that is how you are coming across, and it should be known that it's <b>absolutely incorrect</b>.
If they seem <i>subconscious</i> to you, it's either because you understand these concepts intuitively rather than logically, or because you haven't sat down and given it enough thought (I'm not implying either, because I don't know you well enough). People gather information and come to conclusions about information either <b>intuitively</b> (what you're calling <i>subconsciously</i>), or <b>logically</b>, depending on whether you typically favor the right or left (respectively) hemisphere of your brain. These are different methods that have the potential (intelligence being the limiting factor of both methods) to accomplish the same function of processing information (and ultimately why I think such differing opinions on the same experiences exist on nearly every matter).
This does not mean that you have some coveted understanding that is impossible to attain, just that you understand your minds conclusions as more of a <i>gut feeling</i> than a <i>logical conclusion</i>.
Although I doubt there's a way to truly find out, I'm curious the percentage of players who actually know how to bunnyhop (not think they know) and are actually against it vs the ones who are for it or undecided. Not directed at anyone in particular, but why should someone who hasn't learned something and complains about it be taken seriously when people who have learned and actually know what they are talking about don't really seem to mind it? When someone knows how to do something that I don't, it might frustrate me slightly at first but <i>I will make an effort to learn and improve myself</i>, not just sit there and whine.
I learned bhop and certainly wouldn't mind to see it again but am not going to lose sleep if it doesn't return.
<!--quoteo(post=1838082:date=Mar 20 2011, 11:31 PM:name=kingmob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingmob @ Mar 20 2011, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't believe this thread a) woke up b) became a bunnyhop thread
Do all threads converge towards bunnyhop discussions? (sigh)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. Especially all those backward-speed threads.
<!--quoteo(post=1838069:date=Mar 20 2011, 01:04 PM:name=Lazer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lazer @ Mar 20 2011, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838069"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was gona write a long reply agreeing with Jiriki but I guess I'll just make it a short one. People seem to have this mentality that being an accurate shot is everything that an FPS game is about. I won't argue how important that is, however there used to be a time when being a quick thinker and dodging your opponent was actually an element of game play too. It was what separated the more experienced players from those not used to typical fps games (aka noobs). Why is it these days that everyone seems to whine over an opponent who's capable of dodging you? We might as well throw in aim assist while we're at it to keep up with the times...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking about running backwards while firing at a Melee opponent. That's not "Quick thinking" that's just the obvious answer. Marines are already faster than Skulks. Can you imagine if they increased the backpedal speed, and you saw a skulk in the tram tunnels? It would take them 15 seconds to catch up to the Marine who, by the way, would be firing bullets the whole time.
Quick thinking is "There are two skulks closing in quickly, and I need to reload. I will turn and run." <-- Quick thinking (this is how the game is now)
Quick thinking is not "There are two skulks closing in slowly and I need to reload, but I'll stay and fight (because I can run backwards while firing a fully automatic weapon)" <-- Obvious response (this is how you want it to be)
You guys really need to stop and think about Marine backpedal speed for a moment and what kind of impact it has on the game. Having a slow backpedal speed makes Marines more vulnerable in low numbers. Raising the backpedal speed means a skilled Marine can just kite skulks all day long. It's not as if Marines have no mobility. They are faster than Skulks! But there is a trade off for the speed: You must be looking in the direction you are running.
This adds LAYERS of tactical depth. Features in levels are more important when you can't run AND fight. It also makes balancing the levels easier because long open spaces are no longer Marine owned territory. A slow backpedal speed also has the perk of making Ramboing more difficult.
Give me a shotgun and increased backpedal speed and I'll give you as many dead Skulks as I have shells.
<!--quoteo(post=1838064:date=Mar 20 2011, 08:25 PM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 20 2011, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838064"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as far as movement methods and their value go; here's a question: which gameplay aspects of SC2 do you think <i>you</i> can judge? I think I cannot judge any of them. I am not qualified. Sure I could say a lot of things about SC2, but any time of the day I'd agree pro sc2 players know the game better than I ever will, and their opinions would be much more qualified. I value the knowledge they have gained of the game by mastering its techniques.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you're good at playing a game does not mean you are good at designing a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1838072:date=Mar 21 2011, 12:37 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 21 2011, 12:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838072"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunnyhopping has nothing to do with Starcraft 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its a <i>skill element</i>. RTS'es have different kinds of micro and macro skills. Of course you can't compare FPS skills to RTS skills, just like you cannot compare chess skills to music skills, but nevertheless they still exist. Bunnyhopping is just one thing, there're loads of other issues. Wave dashing has nothing to do with NS either, but its a great example of skill element, it was never designed by the developers (and I'm pretty sure most SSBM developers <i>cannot</i> even perform it), but it became a skill element found by experienced players, adding <i>depth</i> to the game. Any day I'd trust person like Azen to judge whether it should be in the next Super Smash Bros game, rather than myself. He knows how to use it, and he knows how the game <i>works</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This does not mean that you have some coveted understanding that is impossible to attain, just that you understand your minds conclusions as more of a gut feeling than a logical conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A skilled sc2 player does not have some coveted understanding that is <i>impossible</i> to attain. It is an understanding developed from hard practice and experience. Nobody is claiming that it is somehow impossible for others to reach that.
And as much goes for intuition vs logical conclusion, I'll say this: part of the any conclusion is intuition and part of it is logical thinking. When a person asks some SC2 pro whether tactic XYZ is a good idea, he might respond that it is not because of reasons X, Y, Z. As <i>outsiders</i> we have no way of judging if his claims are true. SC2 is very, very complex game. He knows better than us whether premises X, Y and Z are true and whather the conclusion follows from the premises. He probably has to use some logical thinking but the amount of it is rather irrelevant.
Likewise when we ask SC2 pro whether unit X skill Z adds depth to the game he might say it does and base on the knowledge he has acquired from using and seeing other players use it. It is hard for us <i>outsiders</i> to judge the validity of his claims. He probably has some premises from intuition and sums them up with logical thinking, especially if the question is about a hypothetical situation. For us outsiders it doesn't really matter, as long as he is honest about it.
In music and art, there's even more intuitive understanding of the subject. Sure there's music theory, but the understanding was done long before complex art theory was formed. Usually the theory comes later. There's probably no written logical reason why Jon Lord did an organ solo in Highway Star the way he did. Maybe someone later some formula for this but that doesn't change the fact he understood what is good music.
<!--quoteo(post=1838094:date=Mar 21 2011, 02:35 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 21 2011, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because you're good at playing a game does not mean you are good at designing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is true. There's much to game design. There're are ultimate <i>value</i> decisions. But Blizzard used SC1 pros for making SC2. Like I said, it'd be hard for you or me to judge whether skill Z adds value to the game X if we can't even <i>do</i> skill Z. If we learn Z, that doesn't qualify us yet either. We don't know its applications and how it works against very good players. SC2 pros have used catpacks, blink stalkers etc. and know how useful it is. Better than either of us. Its obvious they are better at judging that. I don't see what is the debate here really.
<!--quoteo(post=1838091:date=Mar 20 2011, 07:18 PM:name=Clutch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch @ Mar 20 2011, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quick thinking is "There are two skulks closing in quickly, and I need to reload. I will turn and run." <-- Quick thinking (this is how the game is now)
Quick thinking is not "There are two skulks closing in slowly and I need to reload, but I'll stay and fight (because I can run backwards while firing a fully automatic weapon)" <-- Obvious response (this is how you want it to be)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you see two skulks, and your response is to turn and run, you're a bad player and will just get eaten. Horrible example.
The way it is now forces you to stay and fight if you want to survive. So, since I am forced to stay and fight, I want to be able to dodge/shoot with <b>some</b> chance of coming out on top and this does not have to be achieved just by running backwards shooting. Backwards speed is however simply too slow. It can still be slower than forward and be faster than it currently is, what I've been saying this whole thread.
In regards to air control, I just don't understand how people who never understood it seem to think they know all about it and how awful it was when it was only really an advantage to traveling around the map or for a quick backward curved dodge jump (as marine) when a skulk goes to bite you. Bhopping in itself barely helped gain any kills as a skulk since the path followed is quite predictable when hopping like that. Maybe people need to understand that experience comes from spending time learning a game and not by having a whole bunch of nerfs applied to make targets easier to hit.
EDIT: And guys Jiriki is making some very good points regarding validity of people's opinions regarding subjects they have <i>experience </i>with vs <i>just being aware</i> of.
Maybe we should add some way cooler skill based mechanics... e.g To reload your weapon you have to calculate something (easy basic things like 5*1+48:8-1=?) Or to get ressources as commander you have to play simon? (the longer the chain the more res you get) Or as alien you have to press a key every 3 seconds... and if you forget or press to early you ll die instantly. (The uber pro version would be guitarhero hardcore style)
<!--quoteo(post=1838108:date=Mar 20 2011, 08:43 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 20 2011, 08:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's just a shame the way he's coming across.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, it's not just me right?
Jiriki, you're being extremely presumptuous and condescending by inferring the skill levels of everyone on this board, then deifying these "experts" as though their word was incontrovertible law, as well as the games they play as though they weren't made by individuals just like us.
I know how to bhop, I just think it tips the scales in favor of technical skill over intellectual skill a little too far.
<!--quoteo(post=1838039:date=Mar 21 2011, 04:21 AM:name=Jiriki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jiriki @ Mar 21 2011, 04:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838039"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can imagine what Teamliquid would be feeling if you guys were designing Starcraft 2.
Trust me. In the end, it won't be just competitive players who will be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I know I wont be dissapointed, because while you PHAGZ are winjing your bratty little hearts out I will adapt.
Natural Selection is NOT survival of the fittest, it is survival of the most pliable..
I didn't start this thread. And to me, OP doesn't strike as a competitive player either. Most competitive players have left these forums. I tried to ask one skilled player to reply but he said that its useless, there's no point anymore. Perhaps I'll leave aswell.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jiriki, you're being extremely presumptuous and condescending by inferring the skill levels of everyone on this board, then deifying these "experts" as though their word was incontrovertible law, as well as the games they play as though they weren't made by individuals just like us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said anything about your skill level explicitly. All I said pro SC2 players know their game better than most, and this kind of logic applies to NS aswell. Being part of the competitive scene for a long, I know what kind of opinions are shared by the competitive community. There's no need to get insulted.
Also I didn't say bunnyhop is the <i>only</i> solution to the movement system. I explained how it relates to the topic, and the fact that most competitive players endorse it. There's no need to get provoked by this. There're strong reasons why competitive players prefer it, but it is not a perfect system.
Comments
Nanites.
I think you're confusing depth with "I want in video games what I want".
Never the less, when you coin the memé 'nanites' as an answer, you'll always perceive your own opinion as fact.
But the problem is that its hard to see depth. I don't know if you are a classical pianist, but assuming you are not, I doubt you have much more to say about some Liszt etude than I do. Or avant garde art, whatever. That is because we are not experts on the subject, we cannot see the same stuff than those who are, do see in it. I happen to play piano, and I've learnt to hear things in songs that I didn't hear before. These are called <i>patterns</i>, and foundation of all knowledge.
The same thing is in chess. When <i>you</i> look at the chessboard, you are not going to see all the complexities that a Bob Fischer sees in it. If someone would suggest taking all duplicate units out of the chess game, you might say that it doesn't remove depth but <i>how</i> would you know. Fischer would probably know better than anyone here how removing two soldier from the game would affect it.
Same applies to NS, there're patterns that you start to see after play a lot of competitive games and you start to understand where the depth in this game. This kind of understanding, like musical analysis, cannot be put on in any forum post, you have to have learn to appreciate it.
This is one of the reasons I've most gave up on arguing about some aspects of this game. Without competitive understanding of the game, we're going to argue from very different premises, and the discussion won't really move forward.
"Bunnyhopping adds depth"... "bunnyhopping speed the game up"... "bunnyhopping allows you to do this"... "bunnyhopping means you can't do this"..
Well, it's not your game to create. If the movement can be modified post 1.0 release in the form of a mod go ahead and do so, although, I think it's about time people put their hymn sheets away and started living with what they've got.
Efeective units go in tandom, forward soldier turns about face to observe company as they move ahead, then trade.
But, it's just a game and your probably not so interested in staying alive.. You'd prefer to be a martyr. (Like so many others)
It is just one aspect of a very big game that is inherently complex.
Get over it, you are not the target audience because the audience is just that. More than one person.
Anyone thinking so is wrong, it is as simple as that.
It is just one aspect of a very big game that is inherently complex.
Get over it, you are not the target audience because the audience is just that. More than one person.
Anyone thinking so is wrong, it is as simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:#00FF00--><span style="color:#00FF00"><!--/coloro-->+1<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
We, the testers, are here to offer CONSTUCTIVE critizism and to report bugs. (mostly the latter)
Get off their (UWE crew) backs and get behind them.. Have some fn respeketah!
Trust me. In the end, it won't be just competitive players who will be disappointed.
Actually, which successful competitive games out there have bunny hop Jiriki?
I tell you what though, the thing that killed off games like CS were scripts and exploits. The professional scene was constantly arguing amongst itself, because if it wasn't accusations of hacking, it was rates, and if it wasn't rates it was scripts, and if it wasn't scripts it was something else.
People got fed up with it, because the HL engine allows for so much tinkering. That is why you need a game that supports a fair playing field, not allowing for silly scripts or stupid movement methods.
Waiting until some wannabe new age pro kid will come in and say we are all wrong... and scripts + crappy movement mechanics are - oh so - important for pc gaming...
PS: why is my dead thread back up again - and why is bunnyhop discussed in here?
<b>First-person shooters</b> like Counter-Strike and Unreal Tournament emphasize <b>Technical Skill</b> above all else with their ultra-responsive movement and shooting mechanics and advanced techniques like bhopping. I like to call this Twitch-gaming, as the best players are determined by reaction time, reflexes, and coordination; they aren't required to be strategists.
<b>Turn-based</b> mind-games like Chess and Poker are at the other end of the spectrum, and emphasize <b>Intellectual Skill</b>. The most important skill you can possess is knowledge. Knowing your opponents moves before he does can effectively win you the game before the first move is ever made. The Japanese (apparently) call this <a href="http://"this%20<a%20href="http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-3-knowing-the-mind-of-the-opponent.html""%20target="_blank">http://www.sirlin.net/articles/yomi-layer-...nent.html"</a>" target="_blank">Yomi</a>. The best players do not require any physical/technical skill whatsoever; an amputee would best an octopus at Chess any day (get that picture in your head).
<b>Real-time strategy</b> games StarCraft and Street Fighter (yes, Street Fighter is technically an RTS) are highly competitive games with a mix of both technical skill and mental prowess. The best players benefit from having more information than their opponent (Valuation and Yomi), but also the technical wherewithal to execute their strategies effectively. You can know exactly what moves your opponent will attempt to make, but if you can't react fast enough to counter it, you're as good as dead. Inversely, landing the combination to fire a Hadouken every time is useless if you're opponent knows what you're doing and is smart enough to close the gap between you two.
These are all competitive games in their own right, and I wouldn't say that one has a vastly higher skill cap than the other, yet the type of skill required differs greatly. Clearly, <b>being a mix of FPS and RTS, a successful NS2 should aim for the middle</b>, providing a balance between the Technical skillset and Intellectual skillset lest they inhibit or fracture their player-base.
<b>Personally</b>, I prefer games that have an equal balance of Technical Skill and Intellectual Skill, ultimately because I do not believe in encouraging extremism. As someone's signature here posits, specialization (being the very best at only one aspect) hinders evolution/inhibits growth. Games that balance technical skill and intellectual skill bridge the gap between the two views and have the potential to attract a wider player base while weeding out the die-hardest of extremists/elitists that (regardless of their field of expertise) tend to be very arrogant, rigid, and close-minded, which is not what a community needs to grow.
Actually, which successful competitive games out there have bunny hop Jiriki?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which successful games have wave dashing? Answer is: one game, SSBM. Yet it adds hugely to that game. My friend plays all these crazy japanese 2d fighters, and each of them are super hard and probably have techniques that have not been in any other fighting games. There're lots of things beyond bunnyhop that can be done wrong to cut off competitive aspects. Bunnyhop is just a tip of the iceberg. Some of the other features require subconscious understanding to judge them objectively, just like in chess, tennis, music whatever.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People got fed up with it, because the HL engine allows for so much tinkering. That is why you need a game that supports a fair playing field, not allowing for silly scripts or stupid movement methods.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody is talking about scripts here. You can still have bhop and almost all competitive aspects of ns without scripts. This is not the issue.
And as far as movement methods and their value go; here's a question: which gameplay aspects of SC2 do you think <i>you</i> can judge? I think I cannot judge any of them. I am not qualified. Sure I could say a lot of things about SC2, but any time of the day I'd agree pro sc2 players know the game better than I ever will, and their opinions would be much more qualified. I value the knowledge they have gained of the game by mastering its techniques.
Reminds me on the multiple-buildings-selection an infinite-unit-selection in SC2. When this detail reached the internet all the boards were full of self-apointed pros who doomed SC2 to be a skill-less game. Different game, different genre, same issue.
Trust me. In the end, it won't be just competitive players who will be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping has nothing to do with Starcraft 2.
Claiming that understanding these aspects requires some <i>subsconscious understanding</i> makes them sound elevated and inherently unreachable by anyone other than those who are blessed enough to <i>just understand it</i>. This allows you to shrug off any contestation someone of a differing opinion might be able to offer. I'm not claiming you're doing it with some deliberate intention, but that is how you are coming across, and it should be known that it's <b>absolutely incorrect</b>.
If they seem <i>subconscious</i> to you, it's either because you understand these concepts intuitively rather than logically, or because you haven't sat down and given it enough thought (I'm not implying either, because I don't know you well enough). People gather information and come to conclusions about information either <b>intuitively</b> (what you're calling <i>subconsciously</i>), or <b>logically</b>, depending on whether you typically favor the right or left (respectively) hemisphere of your brain. These are different methods that have the potential (intelligence being the limiting factor of both methods) to accomplish the same function of processing information (and ultimately why I think such differing opinions on the same experiences exist on nearly every matter).
This does not mean that you have some coveted understanding that is impossible to attain, just that you understand your minds conclusions as more of a <i>gut feeling</i> than a <i>logical conclusion</i>.
I learned bhop and certainly wouldn't mind to see it again but am not going to lose sleep if it doesn't return.
a) woke up
b) became a bunnyhop thread
Do all threads converge towards bunnyhop discussions?
(sigh)
a) woke up
b) became a bunnyhop thread
Do all threads converge towards bunnyhop discussions?
(sigh)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. Especially all those backward-speed threads.
You're talking about running backwards while firing at a Melee opponent. That's not "Quick thinking" that's just the obvious answer. Marines are already faster than Skulks. Can you imagine if they increased the backpedal speed, and you saw a skulk in the tram tunnels? It would take them 15 seconds to catch up to the Marine who, by the way, would be firing bullets the whole time.
Quick thinking is "There are two skulks closing in quickly, and I need to reload. I will turn and run." <-- Quick thinking (this is how the game is now)
Quick thinking is not "There are two skulks closing in slowly and I need to reload, but I'll stay and fight (because I can run backwards while firing a fully automatic weapon)" <-- Obvious response (this is how you want it to be)
You guys really need to stop and think about Marine backpedal speed for a moment and what kind of impact it has on the game. Having a slow backpedal speed makes Marines more vulnerable in low numbers. Raising the backpedal speed means a skilled Marine can just kite skulks all day long. It's not as if Marines have no mobility. They are faster than Skulks! But there is a trade off for the speed: You must be looking in the direction you are running.
This adds LAYERS of tactical depth. Features in levels are more important when you can't run AND fight. It also makes balancing the levels easier because long open spaces are no longer Marine owned territory. A slow backpedal speed also has the perk of making Ramboing more difficult.
Give me a shotgun and increased backpedal speed and I'll give you as many dead Skulks as I have shells.
Just because you're good at playing a game does not mean you are good at designing a game.
Its a <i>skill element</i>. RTS'es have different kinds of micro and macro skills. Of course you can't compare FPS skills to RTS skills, just like you cannot compare chess skills to music skills, but nevertheless they still exist. Bunnyhopping is just one thing, there're loads of other issues. Wave dashing has nothing to do with NS either, but its a great example of skill element, it was never designed by the developers (and I'm pretty sure most SSBM developers <i>cannot</i> even perform it), but it became a skill element found by experienced players, adding <i>depth</i> to the game. Any day I'd trust person like Azen to judge whether it should be in the next Super Smash Bros game, rather than myself. He knows how to use it, and he knows how the game <i>works</i>.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This does not mean that you have some coveted understanding that is impossible to attain, just that you understand your minds conclusions as more of a gut feeling than a logical conclusion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A skilled sc2 player does not have some coveted understanding that is <i>impossible</i> to attain. It is an understanding developed from hard practice and experience. Nobody is claiming that it is somehow impossible for others to reach that.
And as much goes for intuition vs logical conclusion, I'll say this: part of the any conclusion is intuition and part of it is logical thinking. When a person asks some SC2 pro whether tactic XYZ is a good idea, he might respond that it is not because of reasons X, Y, Z. As <i>outsiders</i> we have no way of judging if his claims are true. SC2 is very, very complex game. He knows better than us whether premises X, Y and Z are true and whather the conclusion follows from the premises. He probably has to use some logical thinking but the amount of it is rather irrelevant.
Likewise when we ask SC2 pro whether unit X skill Z adds depth to the game he might say it does and base on the knowledge he has acquired from using and seeing other players use it. It is hard for us <i>outsiders</i> to judge the validity of his claims. He probably has some premises from intuition and sums them up with logical thinking, especially if the question is about a hypothetical situation. For us outsiders it doesn't really matter, as long as he is honest about it.
In music and art, there's even more intuitive understanding of the subject. Sure there's music theory, but the understanding was done long before complex art theory was formed. Usually the theory comes later. There's probably no written logical reason why Jon Lord did an organ solo in Highway Star the way he did. Maybe someone later some formula for this but that doesn't change the fact he understood what is good music.
<!--quoteo(post=1838094:date=Mar 21 2011, 02:35 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Mar 21 2011, 02:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1838094"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just because you're good at playing a game does not mean you are good at designing a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is true. There's much to game design. There're are ultimate <i>value</i> decisions. But Blizzard used SC1 pros for making SC2. Like I said, it'd be hard for you or me to judge whether skill Z adds value to the game X if we can't even <i>do</i> skill Z. If we learn Z, that doesn't qualify us yet either. We don't know its applications and how it works against very good players. SC2 pros have used catpacks, blink stalkers etc. and know how useful it is. Better than either of us. Its obvious they are better at judging that. I don't see what is the debate here really.
Quick thinking is not "There are two skulks closing in slowly and I need to reload, but I'll stay and fight (because I can run backwards while firing a fully automatic weapon)" <-- Obvious response (this is how you want it to be)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you see two skulks, and your response is to turn and run, you're a bad player and will just get eaten. Horrible example.
The way it is now forces you to stay and fight if you want to survive. So, since I am forced to stay and fight, I want to be able to dodge/shoot with <b>some</b> chance of coming out on top and this does not have to be achieved just by running backwards shooting. Backwards speed is however simply too slow. It can still be slower than forward and be faster than it currently is, what I've been saying this whole thread.
In regards to air control, I just don't understand how people who never understood it seem to think they know all about it and how awful it was when it was only really an advantage to traveling around the map or for a quick backward curved dodge jump (as marine) when a skulk goes to bite you. Bhopping in itself barely helped gain any kills as a skulk since the path followed is quite predictable when hopping like that. Maybe people need to understand that experience comes from spending time learning a game and not by having a whole bunch of nerfs applied to make targets easier to hit.
EDIT: And guys Jiriki is making some very good points regarding validity of people's opinions regarding subjects they have <i>experience </i>with vs <i>just being aware</i> of.
e.g
To reload your weapon you have to calculate something (easy basic things like 5*1+48:8-1=?)
Or to get ressources as commander you have to play simon? (the longer the chain the more res you get)
Or as alien you have to press a key every 3 seconds... and if you forget or press to early you ll die instantly. (The uber pro version would be guitarhero hardcore style)
Okay, it's not just me right?
Jiriki, you're being extremely presumptuous and condescending by inferring the skill levels of everyone on this board, then deifying these "experts" as though their word was incontrovertible law, as well as the games they play as though they weren't made by individuals just like us.
I know how to bhop, I just think it tips the scales in favor of technical skill over intellectual skill a little too far.
Trust me. In the end, it won't be just competitive players who will be disappointed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know I wont be dissapointed, because while you PHAGZ are winjing your bratty little hearts out I will adapt.
Natural Selection is NOT survival of the fittest, it is survival of the most pliable..
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Jiriki, you're being extremely presumptuous and condescending by inferring the skill levels of everyone on this board, then deifying these "experts" as though their word was incontrovertible law, as well as the games they play as though they weren't made by individuals just like us.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said anything about your skill level explicitly. All I said pro SC2 players know their game better than most, and this kind of logic applies to NS aswell. Being part of the competitive scene for a long, I know what kind of opinions are shared by the competitive community. There's no need to get insulted.
Also I didn't say bunnyhop is the <i>only</i> solution to the movement system. I explained how it relates to the topic, and the fact that most competitive players endorse it. There's no need to get provoked by this. There're strong reasons why competitive players prefer it, but it is not a perfect system.