<!--quoteo(post=1810277:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:30 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Nov 25 2010, 05:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810277"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe Marines could have a noncommander built structure (like the hydra is for aliens)?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Portable power nodes sound like a good candidate for this.
Ooooh, make it have a really long (15 second) deploy time when the marine can't attack (just like building an RT). They'd have to use this in dark rooms where aliens have already done some damage. Maybe even require it for ninja assaulting and setting up beach heads deep in alien territory. It sounds tense on paper and similar to NS1's marine building model.
Hydras will be important and I assume Gorges still have another ability we don't know about. It's way too early to say they won't be useful enough as-is.
<!--quoteo(post=1810294:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:20 AM:name=saiko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (saiko @ Nov 25 2010, 05:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810294"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It only makes sense that the gorges will get more 'stuff' before release. Some of it may even be build stuffs :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That I wouldn't count on, the commanders don't need their job taken away.
<!--quoteo(post=1810253:date=Nov 25 2010, 10:51 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 25 2010, 10:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also it doesn't have to be building or welding maybe but something that your able to do to help the team outside of killing aliens. I don't care what anyone says about building, but taking down a RT by myself, telling the com (communication which is non existent now) to drop me a rt, building it while fighting off skulks, and successfully getting it up was always a very satisfying and fulfilling feel. Now its.. clear a RT and move to the next spot, or camp it out till a MAC comes and builds it. No real sense of accomplishment, and waiting for the MAC only waste time and will most likely get you killed.
To whoever will come and say, but the game play is different now! It's not.. I have done this, I've soloed RT's only to find I am unable to do a single thing about it afterwards because it's ALL completely controlled by the commander and MAC's. Which leads me to continue moving and doing more fighting, which I enjoy but it does NOT COMPARE to the feeling of successfully building that RT while fending off aliens at the same time, that was some of the best moments in NS for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man speaks the truth.
The first thing I did when trying NS2 for the first time was to take down alien RT, request orders and wait for com to drop it. Nothing happened. I requested the orders again and again. Nothing happened. I started yelling at com in chat and got a reply to calm damn, the MAC was on the way.
At first I was like: "Um, what? Ok, I guess i'l wait here then...".
But then I saw how useless I have become as a marine and was like: <img src="http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/11/12.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The satisfaction of conquering an RT on your own that TheGivingTreeis talking about is completely gone. Or how about the adrenaline rush when doing a fast relocation to a Hive? You as a marine, as a team, <b>have to stay alive</b> while doing it, otherwise there will be no-one to build the new comchair and ips and you will lose! It wasnt up to some MAC that needed protection, it was up to YOU to make it happen. It was up to YOU to build that ip while the last of your friends were falling one by one right next to you. That is now gone.
What do you guys think about marines being able to lift up sentries and move them around? I think it's a pretty sweet idea, adds to the depth, and playability of the game. It also increases immersion. Much like when you had welders... And you got to weld ######, increases interactivity with your environment which is always pretty awesome in any game.
I belive there is a very simple solution to all of this. Remove MACs and Drifters from the game (or limit them to close proximity of the com chair/hive) . Let marines and gorges do all the building for the coms.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
i think the system is not that bad right now. The problem is, we can't really judge it because so much is missing. Stuff like DI will increase the value of the gorge for example. Marines and gorges can already help with building. Now they just need a better indication about where they can actually help, sometimes it's not easy to see if something is building or is already built, and you don't get a "build at waypoint" indication. But i'm sure that will come over time. Also a minimap will help if one can see on it what is going on where.
So i say, lets wait a few releases and then judge again. for the moment i think it works pretty well.
<!--quoteo(post=1810253:date=Nov 25 2010, 04:51 AM:name=TheGivingTree)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Nov 25 2010, 04:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810253"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To whoever will come and say, but the game play is different now! It's not..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because not all the game's features have been implemented yet. I agree, in the current build, that commander-marine interaction is almost nonexistent (other than explicit communication over voice/text chat). But hey, Onos are nonexistent as well. My point is instead of reminding us what NS2 isn't, try being constructive and think of how NS2 could be (and should be) different.
Also, communication is up to the players, not the game. Considering we're playing an unfinished beta, it's not surprising that most people aren't actually looking for a serious game to play, and thus aren't communicating.
Perhaps you guys are right, maybe once everything is in the game it will all work out well. But right now I am concerned that the game, at least from my point of view, is heading in the wrong direction. I would love to get a comment from UWE on this matter, so they can calm the masses or realize that "oh s**t, maybe we <i>are</i> going a bit to far with this new concept".
<!--quoteo(post=1810317:date=Nov 25 2010, 07:57 AM:name=weep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weep @ Nov 25 2010, 07:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810317"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Perhaps you guys are right, maybe once everything is in the game it will all work out well. But right now I am concerned that the game, at least from my point of view, is heading in the wrong direction. I would love to get a comment from UWE on this matter, so they can calm the masses or realize that "oh s**t, maybe we <i>are</i> going a bit to far with this new concept".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well there's nothing short of revealing in complete detail the full feature list for NS2 that could satisfy. There's also a fine line between expression rational, conservative concern over the current course of development of the game, and plain ignorant rambling. Those doing the latter need to wait until the game is near complete.
how about we change the concept of the gorge change is good :P
battle medic it can keeps all its currently abilities but give it an umbra as well or the lerk scream so you can heal spit hydra and umbra/lerk scream or web but it doesnt have to be a builder, it was more a support class anyway tbh if all you did was build how would you help the front line aliens?
being a gorge and staying behind is not team work its go and play by your self, this is a team game play like a team. Bring the gorge up to be a front line kinda guy and he can turn the tides of battle with umbra and heal
while i miss the gorge building tbh all i did was spam offensive chambers and a few other things and you can still do that now.
though if at all you should let the gorge build a harvester but i really dont think it's that necessary.
This is ns2 this is not ns1 reskined a new game a new concept dont assume you know how everything will play out in the end. If UWE wanted just to make a reskined ns1 they would have let them be creative and trust them in there judgment
<!--quoteo(post=1810318:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:00 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Nov 25 2010, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810318"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well there's nothing short of revealing in complete detail the full feature list for NS2 that could satisfy. There's also a fine line between expression rational, conservative concern over the current course of development of the game, and plain ignorant rambling. Those doing the latter need to wait until the game is near complete.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean once the game is almost ready to ship out and it is to late to make any major changes? At least, by our "plain ignorant rambling" we are showing that we are concerned. If there is noone to scream bloody murder and everyone is waiting, then there is no way for the devs to know if they are on the "wrong" path.
They are ofcourse the ones making the ultimate decisions and we can only hope that they make the right ones. But I rather draw the attention to my (and others) concern at an early stage than remain silent and only speak out once it is to late.
Pll that complain about ns2 not beeing ns1 anymore, havent really played the ns2 beta yet. Or dont see the whole picture... Maybe these ppl are too stupid to imagine what it would look like if its getting feature complete and every stuff starts to work 100%.
Lets make it clear for the brainys:
Imagine - McDonalds is going to make a new Hamburger. They decide to make some beta tests in the public. Bob was interessted and got invited to a test of this new beta burger - McDonalds told him, some stuff is still missing, and its incredients arent completely balanced... this will get fixed in the future, and the burger will get even more yummy. Bob looks at the name, smells a little bit, but doesnt make a real bite (misses the full flavour)... After this short test Bob says the burger is disgusting, he wants the new hamburger to be like the normal ones, he knows them, he is used to them - why ever invent something new or change it while the old stuff is still ok, right? Bob lives in a cave...i mean, why build houses - if the caves they used in the stoneage were totaly fine, right?
why dont we all just play pong only, its fun, its competition... why bother inventing new games?
<!--quoteo(post=1810323:date=Nov 25 2010, 08:20 AM:name=weep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weep @ Nov 25 2010, 08:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810323"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You mean once the game is almost ready to ship out and it is to late to make any major changes? At least, by our "plain ignorant rambling" we are showing that we are concerned. If there is noone to scream bloody murder and everyone is waiting, then there is no way for the devs to know if they are on the "wrong" path.
They are ofcourse the ones making the ultimate decisions and we can only hope that they make the right ones. But I rather draw the attention to my (and others) concern at an early stage than remain silent and only speak out once it is to late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't accusing you of plain ignorant rambling. Like I said, plain ignorant rambling is not the same as showing your concern.
<!--quoteo(post=1810324:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:20 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810324"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Pll that complain about ns2 not beeing ns1 anymore, havent really played the ns2 beta yet. Or dont see the whole picture... Maybe these ppl are too stupid to imagine what it would look like if its getting feature complete and every stuff starts to work 100%.
Lets make it clear for the brainys:
Imagine - McDonalds is going to make a new Hamburger. They decide to make some beta tests in the public. Bob was interessted and got invited to a test of this new beta burger - McDonalds told him, some stuff is still missing, and its incredients arent completely balanced... this will get fixed in the future, and the burger will get even more yummy. Bob looks at the name, smells a little bit, but doesnt make a real bite (misses the full flavour)... After this short test Bob says the burger is disgusting, he wants the new hamburger to be like the normal ones, he knows them, he is used to them - why ever invent something new or change it while the old stuff is still ok, right? Bob lives in a cave...i mean, why build houses - if the caves they used in the stoneage were totaly fine, right?
why dont we all just play pong only, its fun, its competition... why bother inventing new games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Richard gets invited to McDonalds to taste a new version of his <b>favored burger</b>. He realises that not all the ingredians are in it when he takes the first bite. He likes it, but it leaves a wierd taste in his mouth. He raises his hand and asks if the wierd taste will go away later on in the process. He also points out that his favored burger did not have that much salt in it, that is why he liked it so much. This new version of that burger however, is way to salty for his taste. Richard suggets some minor changes, but an employee slaps him across the face and tells him to shut the f*ck up. The employee also adds that this new version of burger will be awesome once it goes public and that Richard was a complete idiot. Richard walks away wondering why he ever was invited to taste a new version of his favored burger and give his opinion on it, if noone was ready to listen.
Seems like there is only black and white? no grey, no colors?
I did the same mistake, my story sounded as if there is only one possibility - <u>sry for that</u>.
We all have different feelings about the new system. (i like it, some dont... still i played ns1 for years too)
I guess the biggest problem is one side fearing to "lose" We should calm down and wait how it will play out in the end(dev vision feature complete),after this point we can still complain and stand up for a change... + we shouldnt forget we can still mod "our" way in.
Just give the new system a fair chance, dont be ignorant... the new system isnt even finished + most ppl dont even try to play "real" - they play beta, some very forgiving, some testing stuff, some abuse inbalanced stuff, glitche... and some just dont care...you can wait all day for this rt etc.
<!--quoteo(post=1809845:date=Nov 24 2010, 12:13 PM:name=Schimmel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 24 2010, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1809845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->some mechanic that requires a gorge / marine somewhere to expand the territory would be nice. for example gorge has to create infestation and marine has to manually activate a powernode<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I quite like the manual activation idea, I can't remember if it was this thread or not though, it just popped up as I'd 'added it to quote'. Make it so that MACs on their own are not only vulnerable but also less useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1810311:date=Nov 25 2010, 06:40 AM:name=weep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weep @ Nov 25 2010, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I belive there is a very simple solution to all of this. Remove MACs and Drifters from the game (or limit them to close proximity of the com chair/hive) . Let marines and gorges do all the building for the coms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the concept for builder units is quite reasonable - if done properly. They ought to be very easy to take out again so leaving them in until the point they are conclusively proven to be useless is probably the sensible way forward.
Increasing the ability of marines/gorges to act without the builders might help in some ways - but ultimately that would detract from the need to have team work involving both players and the commander. If you have a team that's formed around MACs (ideally with the MAC being able to follow a squad sensibly) then you protect it and have something to build up RTs when you kill them. Sort of like an assassination map for CS, where the MAC is the VIP. Structures and map control should be a key part of the game, having it easy for everyone to both kill and build might make it too ancillary (maybe, although again the "don't knock it without trying it" might still apply)
I'd be more flexible on the alien side, since the commander there is less of a rigid role, so maybe the gorge could drop baby versions of the main structures that could be upgraded by the commander (maybe requiring a drifter, maybe not) into normal versions - have it being an expensive way of doing it by all means to keep the drifter as being the preferred choice, but giving the gorge a much wider scope.
I allways thought the MAC's and Drifters would expand gameplay instead of taking away from it. Like they would be used for somewhat boring tasks like base duty, welding damaged stuff and so on. But only in vicinity of the base and usually in a somewhat worse way compared to a marine doing it.
That way they would be like an OPTION for the commander, you know kinda like "my team is busy all over the map and nobody is in base to build the proto, guess i'm gonna drop a MAC to do that". Maybe give them an unique advantage like improving buildings, a MAC could fly up to an RT and boost it's resource collection rate for a limited time.
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1810290:date=Nov 25 2010, 09:57 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 25 2010, 09:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hydras will be important and I assume Gorges still have another ability we don't know about. It's way too early to say they won't be useful enough as-is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice... Oc spam will be a major part of alien strategy? I guess i have to wait for the NS1 mod ( plz someone do that :D )
If I'm gorge i want to build RTs and movments or even a Hive, and not oc spam the map. As marine I "love" the feeling to build a rt and not knowing if there might be a skulk going to bite me. Or the other way round. Imagine being a skulk and biting down twi rines. One defending and the other building. That's much better than just biting a stupid bot. Or one defending and a stupid bot building.
Even just building the base and "being important", cooperate with the com and gaining a sg is fun.
I miss these points. I guess NS2 will become a standard, not special game. Just a normal shooter with two on the server playing warcraft 3. Like CS, where you buy guns. The only difference left is that one team is shooting and the other is biting.
But even if gorges stay useless and there are mac and drifters, I don't care that much. If NS 2 will suck i just don't play it and hope that someone will make that NS 1 mod :D. I don't have a problem with playing a old game in a new skin and with new maps
The thing that this thread does not contemplate is what is 'good' for the game and the dynamics.
Anyone can say, "I miss X, because X was cool". But is it actually good for NS2?
NS2 is being made easier for the comms to learn the ropes. Also a building marine is a lot easier to distract/take down (or it was in NS1), and aliens have an easier run of the map so by giving both teams commanders and equalising building structures, it has made things easier to balance in that respect. Asymmetry can be achieved by adding new features (power nodes/DI)
However, this creates issues:
- Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals) - Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff) - Roles have become more divided
This is why building needs to be made easier so that the comm can spend more time directing the players, and in turn the players being rewarded for doing said action as well as the gains increase from moving with a squad.
Either that, or has been suggested - removal of build bots and a return of the building marine.
Tell me what are they really taking away? You cant build stuff? wrong - you still can... comm doesnt need to send you a mac
The one time every skulk went gorge to build a single rt in a game?(wow, that tactic needed an iq of 175 for sure) Leaving the rest to 1 gorge, that was building stuff in 1st person instead of commander view...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> - Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Even more important than to just stand there and press "E" is to guard this keyarea or rt, and make it stay alive...(macs are dead in 2hits, powernodes can be destroyed from the start of a match) thats the essential waypoint/goal. You cant just place and forget stuff in ns2... you need the powernodes and buildings to stay online. The mac is just like a visible mousecursor from the comm. In ns1 you watched the back of player xy - in ns2 you and xy watch the back of a mac/or do it like in ns1 - commanders decision. Energy is a slow regen + caped res, macs are expensive an very vulnerable... you cant afford to not protect them, because without macs - you cant repair powernodes and structures for a long time. => killing your economy. (if the numbers are adjusted in the future)
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->- Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Get more RT, gain more areas on the map, get Techpoints,protect your builders, get portable powernodes into key position etc - i dont see the any change in duty.. - killing was always the way how you archived stuff. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> - Roles have become more divided<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> why?
No matter how you do it, you do it wrong... in ns1 most ppl hated to build stuff...,so its taken away in ns2... you take it away and suddently all ppl want is to build stuff again... you guys are crazy.
<!--quoteo(post=1810308:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:35 AM:name=Satire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Satire @ Nov 25 2010, 11:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810308"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you guys think about marines being able to lift up sentries and move them around? I think it's a pretty sweet idea, adds to the depth, and playability of the game. It also increases immersion. Much like when you had welders... And you got to weld ######, increases interactivity with your environment which is always pretty awesome in any game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry? Hmm i prefer the sg. I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
A welder would be nice but I don't feel any desire to build. Welding sometimes because if I see something broken I could fix it. But when the comm wants to build he can send macs easily and I have my hands full watching for aliens. The closer maps mean that aliens attack more often. No time to build.
<!--quoteo(post=1810339:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:07 PM:name=gimpyboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gimpyboy @ Nov 25 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry? Hmm i prefer the sg. I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They exist for the same reason they existed in NS1, because guarding bases is boring but neccesary so you can make AI to do it instead.
<!--quoteo(post=1810339:date=Nov 26 2010, 03:07 AM:name=gimpyboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gimpyboy @ Nov 26 2010, 03:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry? Hmm i prefer the sg. I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did I say anything about sentry spam? I just want to be able to move sentries because they take so ###### long to turn around and the original placement might not be all that good, that and it allows you to redeploy them on the fly to where they are needed.
Besides, there isn't much point spamming them, they only really work well where there is room for them to work from what I have seen. No point putting them in enclosed spaces, they work well in hallways and the like.
Satire... If you make sentrys movable by players, the comm just builds(spams) sentrys in the base while respawning marines just carry them around prebuild and always facing into the right direction. Marines wont give a crap about weapons anymore... a wall of sentrys will make its slow but steady way from the marine base into your hiveroom - more or less.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you guys think about marines being able to lift up sentries and move them around? I think it's a pretty sweet idea, adds to the depth, and playability of the game. It also increases immersion. Much like when you had welders... And you got to weld ######, increases interactivity with your environment which is always pretty awesome in any game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1810339:date=Nov 25 2010, 09:07 AM:name=gimpyboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gimpyboy @ Nov 25 2010, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry? Hmm i prefer the sg. I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sentries and Hydras were in NS1.
Just my two cents, but I have two takes on how you should look at NS2.
<b><u> 1 - It's a brand new game. </b></u> Don't look at it as a sequel, or worse, a remake of NS1 with better graphics and physics. Since NS2 is it's own game, it's undoubtedly going to have new gameplay mechanics, and instead of just knee-jerking and dismissing it for the original gameplay mechanics, I think we should really look at the whole picture of the game, and see how and if it works. Imagine you never played NS1. You never knew you could build. What is your opinion of the MAC then? If it's still negative, then fine, but if it's not, then maybe you should rethink your opinion of it <i>having</i> had played NS1.
<b><u> 2 - It's in a world that's evolved from the world of NS1. </b></u> In the beginning of development, I remember UWE explained that NS1 was like "aliens just got here" stage, and they weren't very accustomed to the world they were inhabiting, and it was noticeable. NS2, however, is the "aliens have been here for awhile" stage, and thus the aliens have evolved, and adapted to the world that is Natural Selection. As well, the Marines have upgraded their platoons and made them more efficient (debatable, but that's the idea). Look at all the evolutions as necessary and unavoidable change by both sides. There's little possibility that had aliens actually landed somewhere like they did in NS1, that they wouldn't have evolved any. The gameplay reflects this.
I hope that someone at least understands where I'm coming from. I loved NS1, don't get me wrong. Nearly everything about it. But I'm kinda tired of seeing people wishing NS2 were an NS1 clone.
Comments
Portable power nodes sound like a good candidate for this.
It only makes sense that the gorges will get more 'stuff' before release. Some of it may even be build stuffs :)
That I wouldn't count on, the commanders don't need their job taken away.
To whoever will come and say, but the game play is different now! It's not.. I have done this, I've soloed RT's only to find I am unable to do a single thing about it afterwards because it's ALL completely controlled by the commander and MAC's. Which leads me to continue moving and doing more fighting, which I enjoy but it does NOT COMPARE to the feeling of successfully building that RT while fending off aliens at the same time, that was some of the best moments in NS for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This man speaks the truth.
The first thing I did when trying NS2 for the first time was to take down alien RT, request orders and wait for com to drop it. Nothing happened. I requested the orders again and again. Nothing happened. I started yelling at com in chat and got a reply to calm damn, the MAC was on the way.
At first I was like: "Um, what? Ok, I guess i'l wait here then...".
But then I saw how useless I have become as a marine and was like:
<img src="http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/11/12.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
The satisfaction of conquering an RT on your own that TheGivingTreeis talking about is completely gone. Or how about the adrenaline rush when doing a fast relocation to a Hive? You as a marine, as a team, <b>have to stay alive</b> while doing it, otherwise there will be no-one to build the new comchair and ips and you will lose! It wasnt up to some MAC that needed protection, it was up to YOU to make it happen. It was up to YOU to build that ip while the last of your friends were falling one by one right next to you. That is now gone.
Stuff like DI will increase the value of the gorge for example.
Marines and gorges can already help with building. Now they just need a better indication about where they can actually help, sometimes it's not easy to see if something is building or is already built, and you don't get a "build at waypoint" indication. But i'm sure that will come over time. Also a minimap will help if one can see on it what is going on where.
So i say, lets wait a few releases and then judge again. for the moment i think it works pretty well.
That's because not all the game's features have been implemented yet. I agree, in the current build, that commander-marine interaction is almost nonexistent (other than explicit communication over voice/text chat). But hey, Onos are nonexistent as well. My point is instead of reminding us what NS2 isn't, try being constructive and think of how NS2 could be (and should be) different.
Also, communication is up to the players, not the game. Considering we're playing an unfinished beta, it's not surprising that most people aren't actually looking for a serious game to play, and thus aren't communicating.
Well there's nothing short of revealing in complete detail the full feature list for NS2 that could satisfy. There's also a fine line between expression rational, conservative concern over the current course of development of the game, and plain ignorant rambling. Those doing the latter need to wait until the game is near complete.
battle medic it can keeps all its currently abilities but give it an umbra as well or the lerk scream so you can heal spit hydra and umbra/lerk scream or web but it doesnt have to be a builder, it was more a support class anyway tbh if all you did was build how would you help the front line aliens?
being a gorge and staying behind is not team work its go and play by your self, this is a team game play like a team. Bring the gorge up to be a front line kinda guy and he can turn the tides of battle with umbra and heal
while i miss the gorge building tbh all i did was spam offensive chambers and a few other things and you can still do that now.
though if at all you should let the gorge build a harvester but i really dont think it's that necessary.
This is ns2 this is not ns1 reskined a new game a new concept dont assume you know how everything will play out in the end. If UWE wanted just to make a reskined ns1 they would have let them be creative and trust them in there judgment
You mean once the game is almost ready to ship out and it is to late to make any major changes? At least, by our "plain ignorant rambling" we are showing that we are concerned. If there is noone to scream bloody murder and everyone is waiting, then there is no way for the devs to know if they are on the "wrong" path.
They are ofcourse the ones making the ultimate decisions and we can only hope that they make the right ones. But I rather draw the attention to my (and others) concern at an early stage than remain silent and only speak out once it is to late.
Or dont see the whole picture... Maybe these ppl are too stupid to imagine what it would look like if its getting feature complete and every stuff starts to work 100%.
Lets make it clear for the brainys:
Imagine - McDonalds is going to make a new Hamburger.
They decide to make some beta tests in the public.
Bob was interessted and got invited to a test of this new beta burger - McDonalds told him, some stuff is still missing, and its incredients arent completely balanced... this will get fixed in the future, and the burger will get even more yummy.
Bob looks at the name, smells a little bit, but doesnt make a real bite (misses the full flavour)...
After this short test Bob says the burger is disgusting, he wants the new hamburger to be like the normal ones, he knows them, he is used to them - why ever invent something new or change it while the old stuff is still ok, right?
Bob lives in a cave...i mean, why build houses - if the caves they used in the stoneage were totaly fine, right?
why dont we all just play pong only, its fun, its competition... why bother inventing new games?
They are ofcourse the ones making the ultimate decisions and we can only hope that they make the right ones. But I rather draw the attention to my (and others) concern at an early stage than remain silent and only speak out once it is to late.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't accusing you of plain ignorant rambling. Like I said, plain ignorant rambling is not the same as showing your concern.
Or dont see the whole picture... Maybe these ppl are too stupid to imagine what it would look like if its getting feature complete and every stuff starts to work 100%.
Lets make it clear for the brainys:
Imagine - McDonalds is going to make a new Hamburger.
They decide to make some beta tests in the public.
Bob was interessted and got invited to a test of this new beta burger - McDonalds told him, some stuff is still missing, and its incredients arent completely balanced... this will get fixed in the future, and the burger will get even more yummy.
Bob looks at the name, smells a little bit, but doesnt make a real bite (misses the full flavour)...
After this short test Bob says the burger is disgusting, he wants the new hamburger to be like the normal ones, he knows them, he is used to them - why ever invent something new or change it while the old stuff is still ok, right?
Bob lives in a cave...i mean, why build houses - if the caves they used in the stoneage were totaly fine, right?
why dont we all just play pong only, its fun, its competition... why bother inventing new games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Richard gets invited to McDonalds to taste a new version of his <b>favored burger</b>. He realises that not all the ingredians are in it when he takes the first bite. He likes it, but it leaves a wierd taste in his mouth. He raises his hand and asks if the wierd taste will go away later on in the process. He also points out that his favored burger did not have that much salt in it, that is why he liked it so much. This new version of that burger however, is way to salty for his taste. Richard suggets some minor changes, but an employee slaps him across the face and tells him to shut the f*ck up. The employee also adds that this new version of burger will be awesome once it goes public and that Richard was a complete idiot. Richard walks away wondering why he ever was invited to taste a new version of his favored burger and give his opinion on it, if noone was ready to listen.
I did the same mistake, my story sounded as if there is only one possibility - <u>sry for that</u>.
We all have different feelings about the new system. (i like it, some dont... still i played ns1 for years too)
I guess the biggest problem is one side fearing to "lose"
We should calm down and wait how it will play out in the end(dev vision feature complete),after this point we can still complain and stand up for a change...
+ we shouldnt forget we can still mod "our" way in.
Just give the new system a fair chance, dont be ignorant... the new system isnt even finished + most ppl dont even try to play "real" - they play beta, some very forgiving, some testing stuff, some abuse inbalanced stuff, glitche... and some just dont care...you can wait all day for this rt etc.
I quite like the manual activation idea, I can't remember if it was this thread or not though, it just popped up as I'd 'added it to quote'. Make it so that MACs on their own are not only vulnerable but also less useful.
<!--quoteo(post=1810311:date=Nov 25 2010, 06:40 AM:name=weep)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (weep @ Nov 25 2010, 06:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810311"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I belive there is a very simple solution to all of this. Remove MACs and Drifters from the game (or limit them to close proximity of the com chair/hive) . Let marines and gorges do all the building for the coms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the concept for builder units is quite reasonable - if done properly. They ought to be very easy to take out again so leaving them in until the point they are conclusively proven to be useless is probably the sensible way forward.
Increasing the ability of marines/gorges to act without the builders might help in some ways - but ultimately that would detract from the need to have team work involving both players and the commander. If you have a team that's formed around MACs (ideally with the MAC being able to follow a squad sensibly) then you protect it and have something to build up RTs when you kill them. Sort of like an assassination map for CS, where the MAC is the VIP. Structures and map control should be a key part of the game, having it easy for everyone to both kill and build might make it too ancillary (maybe, although again the "don't knock it without trying it" might still apply)
I'd be more flexible on the alien side, since the commander there is less of a rigid role, so maybe the gorge could drop baby versions of the main structures that could be upgraded by the commander (maybe requiring a drifter, maybe not) into normal versions - have it being an expensive way of doing it by all means to keep the drifter as being the preferred choice, but giving the gorge a much wider scope.
Like they would be used for somewhat boring tasks like base duty, welding damaged stuff and so on. But only in vicinity of the base and usually in a somewhat worse way compared to a marine doing it.
That way they would be like an OPTION for the commander, you know kinda like "my team is busy all over the map and nobody is in base to build the proto, guess i'm gonna drop a MAC to do that". Maybe give them an unique advantage like improving buildings, a MAC could fly up to an RT and boost it's resource collection rate for a limited time.
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.
Nice... Oc spam will be a major part of alien strategy? I guess i have to wait for the NS1 mod ( plz someone do that :D )
If I'm gorge i want to build RTs and movments or even a Hive, and not oc spam the map. As marine I "love" the feeling to build a rt and not knowing if there might be a skulk going to bite me. Or the other way round. Imagine being a skulk and biting down twi rines. One defending and the other building. That's much better than just biting a stupid bot. Or one defending and a stupid bot building.
Even just building the base and "being important", cooperate with the com and gaining a sg is fun.
I miss these points. I guess NS2 will become a standard, not special game. Just a normal shooter with two on the server playing warcraft 3. Like CS, where you buy guns. The only difference left is that one team is shooting and the other is biting.
But even if gorges stay useless and there are mac and drifters, I don't care that much. If NS 2 will suck i just don't play it and hope that someone will make that NS 1 mod :D. I don't have a problem with playing a old game in a new skin and with new maps
cheers
gimpy
Anyone can say, "I miss X, because X was cool". But is it actually good for NS2?
NS2 is being made easier for the comms to learn the ropes. Also a building marine is a lot easier to distract/take down (or it was in NS1), and aliens have an easier run of the map so by giving both teams commanders and equalising building structures, it has made things easier to balance in that respect. Asymmetry can be achieved by adding new features (power nodes/DI)
However, this creates issues:
- Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals)
- Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff)
- Roles have become more divided
This is why building needs to be made easier so that the comm can spend more time directing the players, and in turn the players being rewarded for doing said action as well as the gains increase from moving with a squad.
Either that, or has been suggested - removal of build bots and a return of the building marine.
You cant build stuff? wrong - you still can... comm doesnt need to send you a mac
The one time every skulk went gorge to build a single rt in a game?(wow, that tactic needed an iq of 175 for sure) Leaving the rest to 1 gorge, that was building stuff in 1st person instead of commander view...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
- Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Even more important than to just stand there and press "E" is to guard this keyarea or rt, and make it stay alive...(macs are dead in 2hits, powernodes can be destroyed from the start of a match) thats the essential waypoint/goal.
You cant just place and forget stuff in ns2... you need the powernodes and buildings to stay online. The mac is just like a visible mousecursor from the comm. In ns1 you watched the back of player xy - in ns2 you and xy watch the back of a mac/or do it like in ns1 - commanders decision.
Energy is a slow regen + caped res, macs are expensive an very vulnerable... you cant afford to not protect them, because without macs - you cant repair powernodes and structures for a long time. => killing your economy. (if the numbers are adjusted in the future)
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->- Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Get more RT, gain more areas on the map, get Techpoints,protect your builders, get portable powernodes into key position etc - i dont see the any change in duty.. - killing was always the way how you archived stuff.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
- Roles have become more divided<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
why?
No matter how you do it, you do it wrong... in ns1 most ppl hated to build stuff...,so its taken away in ns2... you take it away and suddently all ppl want is to build stuff again...
you guys are crazy.
sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry?
Hmm i prefer the sg.
I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy
<!--quoteo(post=1810339:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:07 PM:name=gimpyboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gimpyboy @ Nov 25 2010, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->sentry spam? Are you satisfied by killing a fade by lifting a sentry?
Hmm i prefer the sg.
I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They exist for the same reason they existed in NS1, because guarding bases is boring but neccesary so you can make AI to do it instead.
Hmm i prefer the sg.
I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did I say anything about sentry spam? I just want to be able to move sentries because they take so ###### long to turn around and the original placement might not be all that good, that and it allows you to redeploy them on the fly to where they are needed.
Besides, there isn't much point spamming them, they only really work well where there is room for them to work from what I have seen. No point putting them in enclosed spaces, they work well in hallways and the like.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do you guys think about marines being able to lift up sentries and move them around? I think it's a pretty sweet idea, adds to the depth, and playability of the game. It also increases immersion. Much like when you had welders... And you got to weld ######, increases interactivity with your environment which is always pretty awesome in any game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm i prefer the sg.
I don't see the point in sentries and hydras. The only reason they are so present in NS2 is because they are needed to give the gorge a reason to exist. And the devs needed the gorge because ns is not ns without the gorge. Now the gorge has to oc spam. To keep the balance there are sentries. And now the marines should be able to lift them, because they can't build? Because ns is not ns without interactivitiy with the environment?
i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentries and Hydras were in NS1.
If they got removed, you'd be upset.
<b><u> 1 - It's a brand new game. </b></u> Don't look at it as a sequel, or worse, a remake of NS1 with better graphics and physics. Since NS2 is it's own game, it's undoubtedly going to have new gameplay mechanics, and instead of just knee-jerking and dismissing it for the original gameplay mechanics, I think we should really look at the whole picture of the game, and see how and if it works. Imagine you never played NS1. You never knew you could build. What is your opinion of the MAC then? If it's still negative, then fine, but if it's not, then maybe you should rethink your opinion of it <i>having</i> had played NS1.
<b><u> 2 - It's in a world that's evolved from the world of NS1. </b></u> In the beginning of development, I remember UWE explained that NS1 was like "aliens just got here" stage, and they weren't very accustomed to the world they were inhabiting, and it was noticeable. NS2, however, is the "aliens have been here for awhile" stage, and thus the aliens have evolved, and adapted to the world that is Natural Selection. As well, the Marines have upgraded their platoons and made them more efficient (debatable, but that's the idea). Look at all the evolutions as necessary and unavoidable change by both sides. There's little possibility that had aliens actually landed somewhere like they did in NS1, that they wouldn't have evolved any. The gameplay reflects this.
I hope that someone at least understands where I'm coming from. I loved NS1, don't get me wrong. Nearly everything about it. But I'm kinda tired of seeing people wishing NS2 were an NS1 clone.