<!--quoteo(post=1810759:date=Nov 26 2010, 06:38 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 06:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->lots of people think the exact same things (read other forums) but dont care enough to write them fanboys like yourself make discussion or opinion giving tedious, if only you knew how annyoing it is to 98% of readers to see paragraphs of words with a sentence worth of ideas, and clip/quote/respod nitpicking posts. ugguhuguguhgu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading responses like yours are just painful. Why even bother posting if you have nothing constructive to say? We get it. You don't like NS2. Get on with your life then.
Fanboy? A fanboy blindly follows one viewpoint without reason. Try reading my posts and you'll see that I have very valid arguments to support my opinion.
Trolls like yourself make discussion or opinion impossible. If you only knew how frustrating it is reading your worthless posts..uhghgughghhg
One thing that also get's overlooked is why MAC/Drifters got implemented in the first place. To bring commander gameplay closer to a real RTS, giving him more "impact" on the real world, now that isn't bad on it's own. But to me it feels like they try to overdo it.
I'm not a great RTS player, but i had been a pretty decent comm in NS1 and tbh i never ever had the feeling "i want to do more at once" the times where i had been sitting ilde around doing nothing had been rare, very rare.
Now NS2 tries to add on that, more active abilities for the commander to trigger and AI NPC's to micro around. If you throw that ontop of the "usual" commander gameplay it easily becomes way too much. People will die because the comm had been busy microing a MAC around to build an RT and people will complain. In the end it will make the game not more accessible (which is one of the goals) but worse because with the new commander tasks people that don't reach a certain APM (actions per minute) level will have no chance at all to be a decent comm unless they plan on putting an effortt into this like a starcraft pro players....
At that point one really needs to ask: Is this game trying to be an FPS/RTS hybrid? Or is it trying to be an RTS and an FPS game seperatley?
How much if this really applies in the end product? Nobody knows... but it's not impossible to happen. That beeing said i also have to clarify: I don't dislike the idea of MAC/Drifters, not at all. The basic concept is great but it needs to be brought more in line with the actual NS gameplay that made it successfull in the first place.
People are too busy saying "this is NS2, it's a NEW game!!!" no it's not, it is still a game based on natural selection and if we throw everything away that made NS successfull, unique and fun we might as well name the game "Blörg Bots The revenge of Fatty" and wouldn't have a reason to name the game Natural Selection in the first place.
I strongly believe there is a place for MAC/Drifters in NS gameplay, it certainly can be done. But i'm not sure the current approach is the right way to do it. Those things should add to the gameplay instead of shifting the gameplay around from the player to the comm or from the comm to the AI. Sure i could blindly trust flayra and go "he knows what he is doing!" but flayra is also just a human and no god and because of this even flayra can do mistakes and has to depend on the opinions and feedback of other people.
I was skeptical when I first heard about builders, multiple commanders and alien commander. Then people told me to wait and see how it turns out, reminding me that NS2 isn't NS1. And now that I've seen it in action, with the knowledge of more to come and the bigger picture in mind I must say I absolutely like the changes. I hope UWE sticks to their vision!
<!--quoteo(post=1810885:date=Nov 26 2010, 07:04 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 26 2010, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810885"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One thing that also get's overlooked is why MAC/Drifters got implemented in the first place. To bring commander gameplay closer to a real RTS, giving him more "impact" on the real world, now that isn't bad on it's own. But to me it feels like they try to overdo it.
I'm not a great RTS player, but i had been a pretty decent comm in NS1 and tbh i never ever had the feeling "i want to do more at once" the times where i had been sitting ilde around doing nothing had been rare, very rare.
Now NS2 tries to add on that, more active abilities for the commander to trigger and AI NPC's to micro around. If you throw that ontop of the "usual" commander gameplay it easily becomes way too much. People will die because the comm had been busy microing a MAC around to build an RT and people will complain. In the end it will make the game not more accessible (which is one of the goals) but worse because with the new commander tasks people that don't reach a certain APM (actions per minute) level will have no chance at all to be a decent comm unless they plan on putting an effortt into this like a starcraft pro players....
At that point one really needs to ask: Is this game trying to be an FPS/RTS hybrid? Or is it trying to be an RTS and an FPS game seperatley?
How much if this really applies in the end product? Nobody knows... but it's not impossible to happen. That beeing said i also have to clarify: I don't dislike the idea of MAC/Drifters, not at all. The basic concept is great but it needs to be brought more in line with the actual NS gameplay that made it successfull in the first place.
People are too busy saying "this is NS2, it's a NEW game!!!" no it's not, it is still a game based on natural selection and if we throw everything away that made NS successfull, unique and fun we might as well name the game "Blörg Bots The revenge of Fatty" and wouldn't have a reason to name the game Natural Selection in the first place.
I strongly believe there is a place for MAC/Drifters in NS gameplay, it certainly can be done. But i'm not sure the current approach is the right way to do it. Those things should add to the gameplay instead of shifting the gameplay around from the player to the comm or from the comm to the AI. Sure i could blindly trust flayra and go "he knows what he is doing!" but flayra is also just a human and no god and because of this even flayra can do mistakes and has to depend on the opinions and feedback of other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1810890:date=Nov 26 2010, 11:13 AM:name=NurEinMensch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NurEinMensch @ Nov 26 2010, 11:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was skeptical when I first heard about builders, multiple commanders and alien commander. Then people told me to wait and see how it turns out, reminding me that NS2 isn't NS1. And now that I've seen it in action, with the knowledge of more to come and the bigger picture in mind I must say I absolutely like the changes. I hope UWE sticks to their vision!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
/agree Love the new changes in NS2. Can't wait to see the end result.
I think an easy way to solve the issue with this is do something like a combo of the two, such as.
1. Macs are required to place and build things, but Marines are allowed to assist in speeding the construction (which so far this is done)
2. Macs can not place a building unless a marine is close by, taking something similar to how the original game where you can only rez a building when a marine is close to its location.
3.Add welders to the game so the marines can do things such as weld doors shut and repair structures as they did in the first one, but still allow the macs to do so as well, just making it so the comm is not the only one required to do it at all times.
4.Drifters can only place the buildings but not construct them. This way the comm for the aliens can place the structures he likes, BUT requires at least 1 gorge to finish up the structure, and actually make it completely built.
5. Drifters require a gorge near by to actually build the structure. (doesn't have to only be gorge but this would give them a bigger role if it were the case) This would also allow it to be much more difficult for aliens to rush hives and block the marines from getting even 1 extra comm.
That is just my idea to help fix the issues, I mean I should probably post something on the suggestion forum about it, but I mean this seems to me like it fix most of the issues, keep the macs/drifters in place, and add a little bit of the old style of play and in the end changing how the game is played.
I will say that it seems so far that the jobs of the Comm seem so stressed with you constantly micro managing your MACs around the field that you don't have the time or ability to place ammo, or place med kits for your marines to help keep them alive on the field like they did in the NS1, they even added the ammo and health to NS2, but I have yet to see even one time this element be used.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think an easy way to solve the issue with this is do something like a combo of the two, such as.
1. Macs are required to place and build things, but Marines are allowed to assist in speeding the construction (which so far this is done)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you said, that is already the case
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Macs can not place a building unless a marine is close by, taking something similar to how the original game where you can only rez a building when a marine is close to its location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think that would be interesting and actually it would be very frustrating for the commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.Add welders to the game so the marines can do things such as weld doors shut and repair structures as they did in the first one, but still allow the macs to do so as well, just making it so the comm is not the only one required to do it at all times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The welders will come, they are planned just not in the game yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4.Drifters can only place the buildings but not construct them. This way the comm for the aliens can place the structures he likes, BUT requires at least 1 gorge to finish up the structure, and actually make it completely built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think this is necessary. The problem will probably go away when the buildings like whips can only be build on investation, and the gorge will be spreading this outside the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. Drifters require a gorge near by to actually build the structure. (doesn't have to only be gorge but this would give them a bigger role if it were the case) This would also allow it to be much more difficult for aliens to rush hives and block the marines from getting even 1 extra comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As before, i don't think this is good, because it removes the point of the drifters, which is to make the commander a little bit more independent from the individial players. Specially if you require a certain alien class to be present each time you want to build. This won't work on public servers.
I am glad that you actually took the time to pick out each suggestion, but this is more of a fix so to make the old game play be added on to the new game play, even with the infestation the gorges still have such little use on the field, they need to be more involved with the buidling process like they were in the original game, and like how even the marines are in NS2 now. I mean lets face it, you can toss the drifters out there and have no worries about them being killed, there is almost no way marines can catch them, where as the MAC's are sitting ducks without at least 2 marines covering them.
<!--quoteo(post=1811035:date=Nov 26 2010, 11:27 PM:name=bl1tz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bl1tz @ Nov 26 2010, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811035"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->haha yeah holding down the e button is really fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
PlasmaJoin Date: 2003-04-26Member: 15855Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
The parts I specifically miss; is being able to say "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and immediately having the structure appear, then letting myself or others then start building the structure while another cover's my back. This is a great gameplay experience for me.
Right now, I'm frustrated with saying "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and having to wait for a MAC to come to me - hoping it does not die on the way over, to then start the building process.
The same can be said with gorges; they are really limited now and I have not played him much because of this gameplay limitation.
--
Having said that, I think the MAC/Drifter builders have their place.
I propose the following gameplay changes to really bring back an important part of gameplay I feel NS2 is lacking:
1) Commanders (from both sides) can drop structures anywhere (or perhaps within a range of friendly players only) that appear instantly, unbuilt
2) Structures do not automatically build; they still need to be built by either a gorge, drifter, MAC or marine
3) Drifters and MACs can still build on their own without assistance from marines/aliens - I would think of them as 'base maintenance' workers; allowing me as commander to send them off to build a few turrets or a small outpost or build a few defenses around a base where other players are not currently positioned
Let the human players get more involved in the build process by making the above changes - gameplay trumps all.
<!--quoteo(post=1810980:date=Nov 26 2010, 04:36 PM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 26 2010, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am glad that you actually took the time to pick out each suggestion, but this is more of a fix so to make the old game play be added on to the new game play, even with the infestation the gorges still have such little use on the field, they need to be more involved with the buidling process like they were in the original game, and like how even the marines are in NS2 now. I mean lets face it, you can toss the drifters out there and have no worries about them being killed, there is almost no way marines can catch them, where as the MAC's are sitting ducks without at least 2 marines covering them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why do the gorges *need* to be more involved in the building process?? Because that's how it was in NS1? As far as I can tell NS2 has a builder, multiple actually, they're the players sitting in the hives...
<!--quoteo(post=1811063:date=Nov 26 2010, 08:49 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Nov 26 2010, 08:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811063"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The parts I specifically miss; is being able to say "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and immediately having the structure appear, then letting myself or others then start building the structure while another cover's my back. This is a great gameplay experience for me.
Right now, I'm frustrated with saying "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and having to wait for a MAC to come to me - hoping it does not die on the way over, to then start the building process.
The same can be said with gorges; they are really limited now and I have not played him much because of this gameplay limitation.
--
Having said that, I think the MAC/Drifter builders have their place.
I propose the following gameplay changes to really bring back an important part of gameplay I feel NS2 is lacking:
1) Commanders (from both sides) can drop structures anywhere (or perhaps within a range of friendly players only) that appear instantly, unbuilt
2) Structures do not automatically build; they still need to be built by either a gorge, drifter, MAC or marine
3) Drifters and MACs can still build on their own without assistance from marines/aliens - I would think of them as 'base maintenance' workers; allowing me as commander to send them off to build a few turrets or a small outpost or build a few defenses around a base where other players are not currently positioned
Let the human players get more involved in the build process by making the above changes - gameplay trumps all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way that I see it, having to wait on/rely on a MAC or drifter is sort of the point. Each room in a NS2 map holds a great deal of value, certainly more than it did in NS1. Securing a room should be a difficult process and a major point of contention which would be made more trivial by allowing anyone to build. If your enemy is trying to secure a new tech point your primary target is going to be the builder which if taken out can substantially slow their process and cause them to spend more resources in spawning a new unit.
<!--quoteo(post=1811050:date=Nov 27 2010, 04:10 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Nov 27 2010, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811050"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->yeah it was, you mad?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1810012:date=Nov 24 2010, 11:28 PM:name=WhiteZero)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteZero @ Nov 24 2010, 11:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810012"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->CO had/has a much larger playerbase than NS though...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried co twice, never went back. NS all the way. I guess true ns is for people who arent american drones? You know, have intelligence. George Bush has joined the dev team now is it?
Just reading I got SHOCKED after like post 1 I read. Sheesh. I'm guessing the alpha players (since we can avoid wasting money on once the coolest project to be), will have the option of getting their money back as this was advertised as the game known as NS once, which was meant for intelligent , cool, baffling teamplay and fps rts in your face gaming.
Guess someone else will come out with a proper game. Enjoy your fancy lighting all you like devs , if you hit your head too much and can't add numbers any longer!
<!--quoteo(post=1811222:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:32 PM:name=sgt.ripley)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sgt.ripley @ Nov 27 2010, 01:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I tried co twice, never went back. NS all the way. I guess true ns is for people who arent american drones? You know, have intelligence. George Bush has joined the dev team now is it?
Just reading I got SHOCKED after like post 1 I read. Sheesh. I'm guessing the alpha players (since we can avoid wasting money on once the coolest project to be), will have the option of getting their money back as this was advertised as the game known as NS once, which was meant for intelligent , cool, baffling teamplay and fps rts in your face gaming.
Guess someone else will come out with a proper game. Enjoy your fancy lighting all you like devs , if you hit your head too much and can't add numbers any longer!
<!--quoteo(post=1811210:date=Nov 27 2010, 08:56 AM:name=Licho)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Licho @ Nov 27 2010, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811210"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I liked NS for its demands on team cooperation.
The fact that you don't need marines or gorges to build stuff means there is less incentive on cooperation. It's not as enforced as before.
I dislike it for this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true at all. A commander absolutely does need help to build. A MAC/Drifter can be picked off extremely easily without support from the rest of the team. Seems pretty cooperative to me...
i think the macs and drifters should build things at half thier current speed, the marines then get a new weld gun added to the armory from the start of the game. This can be used to help construct buildings and repair armor and takes up either their main slot or their secondary pistol slot. The gorge heal spray will help construct a building 2 times faster than current.
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)
<!--quoteo(post=1811290:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:35 PM:name=deathshroud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Nov 27 2010, 01:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the macs and drifters should build things at half thier current speed, the marines then get a new weld gun added to the armory from the start of the game. This can be used to help construct buildings and repair armor and takes up either their main slot or their secondary pistol slot. The gorge heal spray will help construct a building 2 times faster than current.
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think fades should be able to build. They be able to stand next to a structure and dance to make it build faster. It could be like a mini-game....the more accurate their dance moves the faster the structure is built.
Are gorges getting babblers or are they reserved to the Crag only? Perhaps if gorges could build infestation to block doorways to only allow aliens through would be cool.
<!--quoteo(post=1811290:date=Nov 27 2010, 05:35 PM:name=deathshroud)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (deathshroud @ Nov 27 2010, 05:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811290"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think the macs and drifters should build things at half thier current speed, the marines then get a new weld gun added to the armory from the start of the game. This can be used to help construct buildings and repair armor and takes up either their main slot or their secondary pistol slot. The gorge heal spray will help construct a building 2 times faster than current.
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Marines and gorges already have build assist.
No need for a new gun or healspray. It's already in the game. Just press "e".
<!--quoteo(post=1811292:date=Nov 27 2010, 03:44 PM:name=shiv)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shiv @ Nov 27 2010, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1811292"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think fades should be able to build. They be able to stand next to a structure and dance to make it build faster. It could be like a mini-game....the more accurate their dance moves the faster the structure is built.
Who's with me??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we talking something like the "little lad dance" ? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyvhMHDi6Mo" target="_blank">important link</a>
Comments
fanboys like yourself make discussion or opinion giving tedious, if only you knew how annyoing it is to 98% of readers to see paragraphs of words with a sentence worth of ideas, and clip/quote/respod nitpicking posts. ugguhuguguhgu<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading responses like yours are just painful. Why even bother posting if you have nothing constructive to say? We get it. You don't like NS2. Get on with your life then.
Fanboy? A fanboy blindly follows one viewpoint without reason. Try reading my posts and you'll see that I have very valid arguments to support my opinion.
Trolls like yourself make discussion or opinion impossible. If you only knew how frustrating it is reading your worthless posts..uhghgughghhg
To bring commander gameplay closer to a real RTS, giving him more "impact" on the real world, now that isn't bad on it's own. But to me it feels like they try to overdo it.
I'm not a great RTS player, but i had been a pretty decent comm in NS1 and tbh i never ever had the feeling "i want to do more at once" the times where i had been sitting ilde around doing nothing had been rare, very rare.
Now NS2 tries to add on that, more active abilities for the commander to trigger and AI NPC's to micro around. If you throw that ontop of the "usual" commander gameplay it easily becomes way too much. People will die because the comm had been busy microing a MAC around to build an RT and people will complain. In the end it will make the game not more accessible (which is one of the goals) but worse because with the new commander tasks people that don't reach a certain APM (actions per minute) level will have no chance at all to be a decent comm unless they plan on putting an effortt into this like a starcraft pro players....
At that point one really needs to ask: Is this game trying to be an FPS/RTS hybrid? Or is it trying to be an RTS and an FPS game seperatley?
How much if this really applies in the end product? Nobody knows... but it's not impossible to happen. That beeing said i also have to clarify: I don't dislike the idea of MAC/Drifters, not at all. The basic concept is great but it needs to be brought more in line with the actual NS gameplay that made it successfull in the first place.
People are too busy saying "this is NS2, it's a NEW game!!!" no it's not, it is still a game based on natural selection and if we throw everything away that made NS successfull, unique and fun we might as well name the game "Blörg Bots The revenge of Fatty" and wouldn't have a reason to name the game Natural Selection in the first place.
I strongly believe there is a place for MAC/Drifters in NS gameplay, it certainly can be done. But i'm not sure the current approach is the right way to do it. Those things should add to the gameplay instead of shifting the gameplay around from the player to the comm or from the comm to the AI. Sure i could blindly trust flayra and go "he knows what he is doing!" but flayra is also just a human and no god and because of this even flayra can do mistakes and has to depend on the opinions and feedback of other people.
To bring commander gameplay closer to a real RTS, giving him more "impact" on the real world, now that isn't bad on it's own. But to me it feels like they try to overdo it.
I'm not a great RTS player, but i had been a pretty decent comm in NS1 and tbh i never ever had the feeling "i want to do more at once" the times where i had been sitting ilde around doing nothing had been rare, very rare.
Now NS2 tries to add on that, more active abilities for the commander to trigger and AI NPC's to micro around. If you throw that ontop of the "usual" commander gameplay it easily becomes way too much. People will die because the comm had been busy microing a MAC around to build an RT and people will complain. In the end it will make the game not more accessible (which is one of the goals) but worse because with the new commander tasks people that don't reach a certain APM (actions per minute) level will have no chance at all to be a decent comm unless they plan on putting an effortt into this like a starcraft pro players....
At that point one really needs to ask: Is this game trying to be an FPS/RTS hybrid? Or is it trying to be an RTS and an FPS game seperatley?
How much if this really applies in the end product? Nobody knows... but it's not impossible to happen. That beeing said i also have to clarify: I don't dislike the idea of MAC/Drifters, not at all. The basic concept is great but it needs to be brought more in line with the actual NS gameplay that made it successfull in the first place.
People are too busy saying "this is NS2, it's a NEW game!!!" no it's not, it is still a game based on natural selection and if we throw everything away that made NS successfull, unique and fun we might as well name the game "Blörg Bots The revenge of Fatty" and wouldn't have a reason to name the game Natural Selection in the first place.
I strongly believe there is a place for MAC/Drifters in NS gameplay, it certainly can be done. But i'm not sure the current approach is the right way to do it. Those things should add to the gameplay instead of shifting the gameplay around from the player to the comm or from the comm to the AI. Sure i could blindly trust flayra and go "he knows what he is doing!" but flayra is also just a human and no god and because of this even flayra can do mistakes and has to depend on the opinions and feedback of other people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1
/agree Love the new changes in NS2. Can't wait to see the end result.
1. Macs are required to place and build things, but Marines are allowed to assist in speeding the construction (which so far this is done)
2. Macs can not place a building unless a marine is close by, taking something similar to how the original game where you can only rez a building when a marine is close to its location.
3.Add welders to the game so the marines can do things such as weld doors shut and repair structures as they did in the first one, but still allow the macs to do so as well, just making it so the comm is not the only one required to do it at all times.
4.Drifters can only place the buildings but not construct them. This way the comm for the aliens can place the structures he likes, BUT requires at least 1 gorge to finish up the structure, and actually make it completely built.
5. Drifters require a gorge near by to actually build the structure. (doesn't have to only be gorge but this would give them a bigger role if it were the case) This would also allow it to be much more difficult for aliens to rush hives and block the marines from getting even 1 extra comm.
That is just my idea to help fix the issues, I mean I should probably post something on the suggestion forum about it, but I mean this seems to me like it fix most of the issues, keep the macs/drifters in place, and add a little bit of the old style of play and in the end changing how the game is played.
I will say that it seems so far that the jobs of the Comm seem so stressed with you constantly micro managing your MACs around the field that you don't have the time or ability to place ammo, or place med kits for your marines to help keep them alive on the field like they did in the NS1, they even added the ammo and health to NS2, but I have yet to see even one time this element be used.
1. Macs are required to place and build things, but Marines are allowed to assist in speeding the construction (which so far this is done)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you said, that is already the case
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Macs can not place a building unless a marine is close by, taking something similar to how the original game where you can only rez a building when a marine is close to its location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think that would be interesting and actually it would be very frustrating for the commander.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3.Add welders to the game so the marines can do things such as weld doors shut and repair structures as they did in the first one, but still allow the macs to do so as well, just making it so the comm is not the only one required to do it at all times.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The welders will come, they are planned just not in the game yet.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->4.Drifters can only place the buildings but not construct them. This way the comm for the aliens can place the structures he likes, BUT requires at least 1 gorge to finish up the structure, and actually make it completely built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is necessary. The problem will probably go away when the buildings like whips can only be build on investation, and the gorge will be spreading this outside the hive.
<!--quoteo(post=1810949:date=Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM:name=DracoJJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DracoJJ @ Nov 27 2010, 01:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810949"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->5. Drifters require a gorge near by to actually build the structure. (doesn't have to only be gorge but this would give them a bigger role if it were the case) This would also allow it to be much more difficult for aliens to rush hives and block the marines from getting even 1 extra comm.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As before, i don't think this is good, because it removes the point of the drifters, which is to make the commander a little bit more independent from the individial players. Specially if you require a certain alien class to be present each time you want to build. This won't work on public servers.
yeah it was, you mad?
Right now, I'm frustrated with saying "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and having to wait for a MAC to come to me - hoping it does not die on the way over, to then start the building process.
The same can be said with gorges; they are really limited now and I have not played him much because of this gameplay limitation.
--
Having said that, I think the MAC/Drifter builders have their place.
I propose the following gameplay changes to really bring back an important part of gameplay I feel NS2 is lacking:
1) Commanders (from both sides) can drop structures anywhere (or perhaps within a range of friendly players only) that appear instantly, unbuilt
2) Structures do not automatically build; they still need to be built by either a gorge, drifter, MAC or marine
3) Drifters and MACs can still build on their own without assistance from marines/aliens - I would think of them as 'base maintenance' workers; allowing me as commander to send them off to build a few turrets or a small outpost or build a few defenses around a base where other players are not currently positioned
Let the human players get more involved in the build process by making the above changes - gameplay trumps all.
Why do the gorges *need* to be more involved in the building process?? Because that's how it was in NS1? As far as I can tell NS2 has a builder, multiple actually, they're the players sitting in the hives...
Right now, I'm frustrated with saying "Commander I need orders" or "drop RT" and having to wait for a MAC to come to me - hoping it does not die on the way over, to then start the building process.
The same can be said with gorges; they are really limited now and I have not played him much because of this gameplay limitation.
--
Having said that, I think the MAC/Drifter builders have their place.
I propose the following gameplay changes to really bring back an important part of gameplay I feel NS2 is lacking:
1) Commanders (from both sides) can drop structures anywhere (or perhaps within a range of friendly players only) that appear instantly, unbuilt
2) Structures do not automatically build; they still need to be built by either a gorge, drifter, MAC or marine
3) Drifters and MACs can still build on their own without assistance from marines/aliens - I would think of them as 'base maintenance' workers; allowing me as commander to send them off to build a few turrets or a small outpost or build a few defenses around a base where other players are not currently positioned
Let the human players get more involved in the build process by making the above changes - gameplay trumps all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The way that I see it, having to wait on/rely on a MAC or drifter is sort of the point. Each room in a NS2 map holds a great deal of value, certainly more than it did in NS1. Securing a room should be a difficult process and a major point of contention which would be made more trivial by allowing anyone to build. If your enemy is trying to secure a new tech point your primary target is going to be the builder which if taken out can substantially slow their process and cause them to spend more resources in spawning a new unit.
lmao calm down buddy, don't have a heart attack
The fact that you don't need marines or gorges to build stuff means there is less incentive on cooperation. It's not as enforced as before.
I dislike it for this reason.
I tried co twice, never went back. NS all the way. I guess true ns is for people who arent american drones? You know, have intelligence. George Bush has joined the dev team now is it?
Just reading I got SHOCKED after like post 1 I read. Sheesh. I'm guessing the alpha players (since we can avoid wasting money on once the coolest project to be), will have the option of getting their money back as this was advertised as the game known as NS once, which was meant for intelligent , cool, baffling teamplay and fps rts in your face gaming.
Guess someone else will come out with a proper game. Enjoy your fancy lighting all you like devs , if you hit your head too much and can't add numbers any longer!
pff
Just reading I got SHOCKED after like post 1 I read. Sheesh. I'm guessing the alpha players (since we can avoid wasting money on once the coolest project to be), will have the option of getting their money back as this was advertised as the game known as NS once, which was meant for intelligent , cool, baffling teamplay and fps rts in your face gaming.
Guess someone else will come out with a proper game. Enjoy your fancy lighting all you like devs , if you hit your head too much and can't add numbers any longer!
pff<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wtf?
The fact that you don't need marines or gorges to build stuff means there is less incentive on cooperation. It's not as enforced as before.
I dislike it for this reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not true at all. A commander absolutely does need help to build. A MAC/Drifter can be picked off extremely easily without support from the rest of the team. Seems pretty cooperative to me...
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think fades should be able to build. They be able to stand next to a structure and dance to make it build faster. It could be like a mini-game....the more accurate their dance moves the faster the structure is built.
Who's with me??
Are we seriously doing this again?
Now both the marine and gorge can help construct buildings :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines and gorges already have build assist.
No need for a new gun or healspray. It's already in the game. Just press "e".
Who's with me??<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are we talking something like the "little lad dance" ? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyvhMHDi6Mo" target="_blank">important link</a>
If so, count me in with this bold plan!
Also I miss the circle buildprogress/hp thing you'd get from building or healing a structure in ns1.