Yes there are a lot outcomes / variables - <u><b>thats why you will never balance a game for such situations.</b></u>
Depending on the value of a mac vs player, positions and other variables, my decision will change, and the decision of the 2 skulks will change too.... if there are 2 skulks 2 marines and a mac in a room... skulk would only target the mac if they happen to run into in while trying to kill the marines or if the mac is/going to build/ing a structure that has a high value for the marines - possible sacrifice of a skulk life > letting the mac finish the build, or go to position x.
Whats the point of this anyways... there are a lot more players and a lot more situations in a game...
I like the MACs for 'boring building' in the marine base. But you lose the tension/fun of building when you're out in the field. Putting up a frontier res node was a team effort that needed people to cover the builder and, most importantly, someone to draw the short straw/trust his team mates whilst building it. Furthermore there was a lot of exciting tension if building by yourself, putting up a phase gate outside a hive by yourself was always a very tense moment. I'd like to see marines do all the building in the field. Maybe make the MACs incredibly slow so it's only feasible for them to build base buildings.
<!--quoteo(post=1810500:date=Nov 25 2010, 08:58 PM:name=N_3)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (N_3 @ Nov 25 2010, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810500"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the MACs for 'boring building' in the marine base. But you lose the tension/fun of building when you're out in the field. Putting up a frontier res node was a team effort that needed people to cover the builder and, most importantly, someone to draw the short straw/trust his team mates whilst building it. Furthermore there was a lot of exciting tension if building by yourself, putting up a phase gate outside a hive by yourself was always a very tense moment. I'd like to see marines do all the building in the field. Maybe make the MACs incredibly slow so it's only feasible for them to build base buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this any different from covering a mac whilst it builds? If you die the structure is lost anyway so the tension is still there minus the fact you can actually prevent it instead of getting chewed whilst holding 'e' and staring at a structure.
I agree though MACs and Drifters need to move MUCH slower.
I brought this up in one of the many other threads about this topic, but you really lose any ability to ninja a hive (assuming that whole strategy is still valid in ns2 and not removed). A mac will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right place at the right time. Sadly I am getting the feeling the "feel" of ns1 will not carry over to ns2 as much as I would like, meaning the ramp up of intensity going from scout out the hive, to fighting for resources and expansions, to the final epic finale. Then again maybe I am overreacting and ns2 will feel like a sequel instead of a new game.
<!--quoteo(post=1810507:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I brought this up in one of the many other threads about this topic, but you really lose any ability to ninja a hive (assuming that whole strategy is still valid in ns2 and not removed). A mac will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right place at the right time. Sadly I am getting the feeling the "feel" of ns1 will not carry over to ns2 as much as I would like, meaning the ramp up of intensity going from scout out the hive, to fighting for resources and expansions, to the final epic finale. Then again maybe I am overreacting and ns2 will feel like a sequel instead of a new game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sort of thing is what Replicate should be used for. Instant building dropped at 5x cost, no MAC needed.
<!--quoteo(post=1810403:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:46 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 25 2010, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a skulk is biting your friend, and another a build bot... you will shoot the one biting your friend first. I guarantee that, as he is paramount to your survival more than the bot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too broad a scenario to conclude that. You're seeing this glass as half-empty now what about the flip side:
What if you know your friend is well equipped and a good shot and thus can fend for him(her)self for the time it takes to take down the skulk attacking the builder bot?; thus the bot is saved and the friend is fine versus a possible lost builder which is obviously vital to any RTS game. (It may even be easier to target the skulk attacking the bot as the human defender is probably going to be employing random defensive jumping/strafing etc in any case) As crazy as it sounds some might even have FF enabled, making picking that skulk attacking your friend more tricky i.e. as in most things in life the answer is "it depends".
Another issue to consider is short term survival versus long term. Long term demands builders be protected as a priority; which might mean sacrificing marines to get them to where they need to be.
This thread is full of intelligent heart-felt arguments on both sides. I'm torn between them both - I think the only option now that the game has changed, it to wait for the game to be completed.
No one knows what it's going to be like 16 on 16. I have a gut feeling MACs and Drifters are going to drop like flies, and frontier building will require tight teamwork to escort them in, and help build the structure. I spend lots of time building structures in NS2.
I like the idea of MACs and Drifters having a limited range (as posted earlier by weep). Perhaps MACs could be restricted to areas that are powered up, leaving them to do mundane duties like repairing structures, building new structures in the base, and repairing marine armour if the base is under attack. Those are the kind of things I wouldn't necessarily miss doing from the first NS. What I would miss doing is sneaking around in hostile territory and laying down a ninja PG or welding an important vent shut.
So what would the game be like then? Maybe we could imagine seeing a group of marines marching into a darkened room towards the way point, while they all protect the one or two "engineerines" with welders or repair kits (or whatever) that can repair the power node. Once power is restored, the MACs can move in, setting up the RTs and perhaps some defensive structures, and the marines can move on (they are called "Frontiersmen", after all) to the next hostile area.
So how is this any different than escorting a MAC? Well, first of all, a MAC cannot react to whats going on around it. If it's flying straight into a cloud of Lerk gas that none of the marines would dare walk through... well, that's pretty much it for the bot as it gets ambushed by a bunch of skulks. I imagine it would be pretty frustrating to keep losing MACs that way (going straight into a pile of death), because you as the marine have no control over where it goes or what it does. I just don't find it as fun or as tense protecting a bot as opposed to another player. If you screw up and fail to protect a bot, it will not get upset with you (maybe the commander will, but he won't always see what's going on). If you screw up and fail a teammate, however... Second of all, another enjoyable aspect of NS was the mad scramble for dropped weapons and welders. If the "engineer" goes down, the marines could be scrambling to look for that welder while still dealing with the alien attack. It's just plain satisfying to be able to salvage or save dropped gear.
I think this would be a great compromise between allowing players to do crucial things for their team (repairing power nodes, welding vents/doors, etc...), creating that tension we all know and love, and allowing the automated bot do all the other things that we may not necessarily miss doing like base building, repairing, etc... It should all be pretty much the same for the commander anyways: Giving a player (hopefully a reliable one) and setting a way point is like building a MAC and giving it orders. We as players would have more vested interest in the welder, and the player with the welder can truly feel like a man on a mission.
Tl;dr: MACs and Drifters should be limited to areas with/without power, while the marines do the "dirty work" in the hostile areas of the map. I mean, they do have guns and all...
<!--quoteo(post=1810335:date=Nov 25 2010, 01:50 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 25 2010, 01:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I always thought the MAC's and Drifters would expand gameplay instead of taking away from it.
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope Unknown Worlds will see the problem here. NS2 seems to have lost alot of its depth, the fact the team no longer needs to work as a team as the commander can advance the game himself, the players just run around and shoot, getting very dull fast, there's none of this varied gameplay found in NS1. Give the players back the role we '<b>loved</b>' and let us build and weld.
I really don't get the 'marines are useless because they just go round killing stuff' argument.
That's what most of the ALIEN team has been doing since NS was first made. You get a couple of gorges and then everyone else has to go combat classes because otherwise you end up wasting money. Most of the alien classes are and always have been purely combat classes, they CAN'T build anything, but plenty of people play aliens and presumably enjoy it. Not to mention the fact that most marines spend most of their time shooting stuff rather than building stuff, you only build stuff when you have cleared an area. Most of the effort goes into defending and attacking bases and clearing ways to a location. Combat in other words.
You need combat players to clear areas so non combat builders can build stuff, you still need to do that except now the marines don't have to e build everything and are required instead to guard more vigilantly, while the alien builders don't have to sit in the hive room for 10 minutes waiting for 80 res to build up so they can maybe have a shot at dropping a hive somewhere.
The only way the commander can advance by himself is by spamming builders and rushing them somewhere, but even then some light resistance means that it doesn't work. And it's fairly obvious (or at least it should be) that doing that is not going to be in the final game anyway, because it's stupid and I somehow doubt that comms will be able to place infinite turrets for very little cost once the game actually has some semblance of balance in it.
<!--quoteo(post=1810403:date=Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a skulk is biting your friend, and another a build bot... you will shoot the one biting your friend first. I guarantee that, as he is paramount to your survival more than the bot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't guarantee something so stupid. I don't give two ###### about dying in a game (obvious with my fractional KD ratios) so even if this situation DID happen, I'd go for the one on the MAC.
Actually I'd kill the one on the dude because macs are fairly easy to replace, what matters is that we hold the position until it can be built in, not keep the mac alive to build in it right this second. Generally it's easier to hold longer with more people than it is to hold for shorter with only one or two people. If you have one guy one alien will kill him easily, but if you have two guys even two aliens would have a harder time because each marine can shoot the alien on the other guy, which is easier than shooting one trying to kill you. Marine power increases exponentially the more of them there are.
Of course if you're under time constraints you might be tempted to sacrifice players to complete the base faster, it depends on the situation.
Rather than welders perhaps marines could get a nanite stimpack or something. You inject marines with it and it regenerates some health and armor over a few seconds. And you can only use it once every 30s or so. Should be something the comm researches in mid to late game and then becomes standard equipment for marines.
Base welding could probably be done by just making MACs automatically fix anything broken nearby.
<!--quoteo(post=1810504:date=Nov 25 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Revi.uk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Nov 25 2010, 01:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810504"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this any different from covering a mac whilst it builds? If you die the structure is lost anyway so the tension is still there minus the fact you can actually prevent it instead of getting chewed whilst holding 'e' and staring at a structure.
I agree though MACs and Drifters need to move MUCH slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The tension comes from being defenseless whilst you build
NS is a great game but it's too early to pass judgment on NS2. I want NS2 to have a different style. It took a long time for NS to reach it's present stage. NS2 is beta. Give it a chance. At least wait until there is the full complement of upgrades and other "coming soon" stuff before trying to revert back to NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1810709:date=Nov 26 2010, 03:08 AM:name=1stToast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (1stToast @ Nov 26 2010, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NS is a great game but it's too early to pass judgment on NS2. I want NS2 to have a different style. It took a long time for NS to reach it's present stage. NS2 is beta. Give it a chance. At least wait until there is the full complement of upgrades and other "coming soon" stuff before trying to revert back to NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And.. NS2 can't still have a different style with building/welding added in? That's like saying because NS2 and 1 both have lmg's they are identical..you do realize the game has a VAST amount of changes outside of not being able to build and weld right?
The power grid/DI ALONE is more then enough to merit that NS2 will have a very different play style and feel, and that's not including all the other new features and changes made as well. So no, adding welding and building will not make it like NS1, just taking another piece from 1 and BUILDING on it to make a new and IMPROVED game, with its own unique style that differs from NS1.
it's amazing to me that people need to experience NS2 first hand to realize that they abandoned the formula that made the original so additive and fun. it was obvious from the descriptions before it came out.
if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it molested a winning formula. and the replacement formula isn't merely "new" or "different", it's inferior, it's bad
it's not "it's own game" or "a new game", it's <u><b>NS</b></u>2. acceptable change would be something like a different protolab upgrade and guns for marines, and a new lifeform for aliens. they've just defecated upon what made the original game great. i have the same feeling towards NS2 as i did to combat: what's even the point of this? why did you do this? do you not get it?
i bought the pre-order largely out of sheer goodwill and desire to donate to the creators of my favorite game of all time, and i still don't regret funding their dream nor do i ever wish UWE ill - but i have no illusions anymore, i have no hope or interest in NS2. even with the kinks worked out, it's just not good enough
<!--quoteo(post=1810740:date=Nov 26 2010, 09:42 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's amazing to me that people need to actually play the game and experience it first hand to realize that they abandoned the NS1 formula that made the game so additive and fun
if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is itself doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it toyed too much with a winning formula<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1810740:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's amazing to me that people need to actually play the game and experience it first hand to realize that they abandoned the NS1 formula that made the game so additive and fun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The beta. Is not. Complete. Making such an immediate, rash judgment based on the beta is like saying an unfinished house won't protect you from the rain.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is itself doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it toyed too much with a winning formula<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get a grip on reality, or go find another bridge to hide under. NS1's formula is not perfect.
<!--quoteo(post=1810747:date=Nov 26 2010, 04:57 AM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Nov 26 2010, 04:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810747"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The beta. Is not. Complete. Making such an immediate, rash judgment based on the beta is like saying an unfinished house won't protect you from the rain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what if you look at the blueprint for the foundation and notice there's an obvious weak spot that can't support it, but it's too late to correct since so much structure has been built around the original flawed plans?
<!--quoteo(post=1810507:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM:name=[R8]DJBourgeoisie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810507"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I brought this up in one of the many other threads about this topic, but you really lose any ability to ninja a hive (assuming that whole strategy is still valid in ns2 and not removed). A mac will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right place at the right time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly do you lose the ability to ninja a hive? <i>A MAC will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right time.</i> This is true. But MACs aren't replacing human players. You will still have human players do do exactly all the things you describe. The only difference is, instead of having structures drop out of thin air, you'll need a MAC tagging along to place them. And you may be thinking an NPC doesn't have the intelligence to be stealthy in such a situation, not without a commander explicitly navigating it. This is true. Fortunately, NS2 will have multiple commanders, such that the main commander won't have to shift his focus away from more important matters into order to navigate MACs - sub commanders can do this! You won't always need a MAC either, since the commander has the replicate ability which allows him to instantly drop completed structures anywhere. <i>See how it all works out?</i> You can't see the effects of the absence or addition of a single feature in NS2 without considering all the other features.
<!--quoteo(post=1810752:date=Nov 26 2010, 06:09 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810752"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->what if you look at the blueprint for the foundation and notice there's an obvious weak spot that can't support it, but it's too late to correct since so much structure has been built around the original flawed plans?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except the blueprint you are looking at is incomplete. The drafter hasn't shown you everything you need to know. In any case, if you think you've seen enough of NS2 to be able to immediately dismiss it, then I would invite you to describe what those weak spots are instead of posting nonconstructive rubbish like "it's inferior, it's bad". Anything less is just trolling. Great, aleph thinks its bad for no discernible reason. Why do we care? Next.
[<!--quoteo(post=1810740:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not "it's own game" or "a new game", it's <u><b>NS</b></u>2. acceptable change would be something like a different protolab upgrade and guns for marines, and a new lifeform for aliens. they've just defecated upon what made the original game great. i have the same feeling towards NS2 as i did to combat: what's even the point of this? why did you do this? do you not get it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is VERY subjective. The kind of changes you describe sound more like an expansion pack rather than a sequel.
<!--quoteo(post=1810335:date=Nov 25 2010, 09:50 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 25 2010, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I allways thought the MAC's and Drifters would expand gameplay instead of taking away from it. Like they would be used for somewhat boring tasks like base duty, welding damaged stuff and so on. But only in vicinity of the base and usually in a somewhat worse way compared to a marine doing it.
That way they would be like an OPTION for the commander, you know kinda like "my team is busy all over the map and nobody is in base to build the proto, guess i'm gonna drop a MAC to do that". Maybe give them an unique advantage like improving buildings, a MAC could fly up to an RT and boost it's resource collection rate for a limited time.
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that MAC's could be optional builders. Wasn't that the idea of MAC's in the first place? To allow the commander to build without relying on marines, who may not want to spend the first 2 minutes in base building?
That being said, we also have to consider the possibility for the roles of players in the game to have changed. NS2 has added a huge new element to the game - Power Grid and Infestation. I think some people are underestimating just how significant these features can be. So you might not be able to do certain traditional things that you could in NS1. But you will be capable of new things. I previously suggested that the idea of portable power nodes be relegated to marines. Someone suggested you might not be able to ninja hives in NS2 - maybe not in the same way as in NS1. But imagine sneaking into a hive, laying down a portable power node, having your commander instantly drop a bunch of sentries and an armoury (through the replicate ability, which allows the commander to instantly drop completed structures anywhere). Voila, ninja hive attack complete.
e: Sorry for the triple post, I just wanted to delineate my responses.
<!--quoteo(post=1810756:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:25 AM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Nov 26 2010, 05:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810756"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->etc etce tcGreat, aleph thinks its bad for no discernible reason. Why do we care?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lots of people think the exact same things (read other forums) but dont care enough to write them fanboys like yourself make discussion or opinion giving tedious, if only you knew how annyoing it is to 98% of readers to see paragraphs of words with a sentence worth of ideas, and clip/quote/respod nitpicking posts. ugguhuguguhgu
Comments
Depending on the value of a mac vs player, positions and other variables, my decision will change, and the decision of the 2 skulks will change too.... if there are 2 skulks 2 marines and a mac in a room... skulk would only target the mac if they happen to run into in while trying to kill the marines or if the mac is/going to build/ing a structure that has a high value for the marines - possible sacrifice of a skulk life > letting the mac finish the build, or go to position x.
Whats the point of this anyways... there are a lot more players and a lot more situations in a game...
How is this any different from covering a mac whilst it builds? If you die the structure is lost anyway so the tension is still there minus the fact you can actually prevent it instead of getting chewed whilst holding 'e' and staring at a structure.
I agree though MACs and Drifters need to move MUCH slower.
I brought this up in one of the many other threads about this topic, but you really lose any ability to ninja a hive (assuming that whole strategy is still valid in ns2 and not removed). A mac will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right place at the right time. Sadly I am getting the feeling the "feel" of ns1 will not carry over to ns2 as much as I would like, meaning the ramp up of intensity going from scout out the hive, to fighting for resources and expansions, to the final epic finale. Then again maybe I am overreacting and ns2 will feel like a sequel instead of a new game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sort of thing is what Replicate should be used for. Instant building dropped at 5x cost, no MAC needed.
Too broad a scenario to conclude that. You're seeing this glass as half-empty now what about the flip side:
What if you know your friend is well equipped and a good shot and thus can fend for him(her)self for the time it takes to take down the skulk attacking the builder bot?; thus the bot is saved and the friend is fine versus a possible lost builder which is obviously vital to any RTS game. (It may even be easier to target the skulk attacking the bot as the human defender is probably going to be employing random defensive jumping/strafing etc in any case) As crazy as it sounds some might even have FF enabled, making picking that skulk attacking your friend more tricky i.e. as in most things in life the answer is "it depends".
Another issue to consider is short term survival versus long term. Long term demands builders be protected as a priority; which might mean sacrificing marines to get them to where they need to be.
No one knows what it's going to be like 16 on 16. I have a gut feeling MACs and Drifters are going to drop like flies, and frontier building will require tight teamwork to escort them in, and help build the structure. I spend lots of time building structures in NS2.
So what would the game be like then? Maybe we could imagine seeing a group of marines marching into a darkened room towards the way point, while they all protect the one or two "engineerines" with welders or repair kits (or whatever) that can repair the power node. Once power is restored, the MACs can move in, setting up the RTs and perhaps some defensive structures, and the marines can move on (they are called "Frontiersmen", after all) to the next hostile area.
So how is this any different than escorting a MAC? Well, first of all, a MAC cannot react to whats going on around it. If it's flying straight into a cloud of Lerk gas that none of the marines would dare walk through... well, that's pretty much it for the bot as it gets ambushed by a bunch of skulks. I imagine it would be pretty frustrating to keep losing MACs that way (going straight into a pile of death), because you as the marine have no control over where it goes or what it does. I just don't find it as fun or as tense protecting a bot as opposed to another player. If you screw up and fail to protect a bot, it will not get upset with you (maybe the commander will, but he won't always see what's going on). If you screw up and fail a teammate, however...
Second of all, another enjoyable aspect of NS was the mad scramble for dropped weapons and welders. If the "engineer" goes down, the marines could be scrambling to look for that welder while still dealing with the alien attack. It's just plain satisfying to be able to salvage or save dropped gear.
I think this would be a great compromise between allowing players to do crucial things for their team (repairing power nodes, welding vents/doors, etc...), creating that tension we all know and love, and allowing the automated bot do all the other things that we may not necessarily miss doing like base building, repairing, etc... It should all be pretty much the same for the commander anyways: Giving a player (hopefully a reliable one) and setting a way point is like building a MAC and giving it orders. We as players would have more vested interest in the welder, and the player with the welder can truly feel like a man on a mission.
Tl;dr: MACs and Drifters should be limited to areas with/without power, while the marines do the "dirty work" in the hostile areas of the map. I mean, they do have guns and all...
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hope Unknown Worlds will see the problem here. NS2 seems to have lost alot of its depth, the fact the team no longer needs to work as a team as the commander can advance the game himself, the players just run around and shoot, getting very dull fast, there's none of this varied gameplay found in NS1. Give the players back the role we '<b>loved</b>' and let us build and weld.
That's what most of the ALIEN team has been doing since NS was first made. You get a couple of gorges and then everyone else has to go combat classes because otherwise you end up wasting money. Most of the alien classes are and always have been purely combat classes, they CAN'T build anything, but plenty of people play aliens and presumably enjoy it. Not to mention the fact that most marines spend most of their time shooting stuff rather than building stuff, you only build stuff when you have cleared an area. Most of the effort goes into defending and attacking bases and clearing ways to a location. Combat in other words.
You need combat players to clear areas so non combat builders can build stuff, you still need to do that except now the marines don't have to e build everything and are required instead to guard more vigilantly, while the alien builders don't have to sit in the hive room for 10 minutes waiting for 80 res to build up so they can maybe have a shot at dropping a hive somewhere.
The only way the commander can advance by himself is by spamming builders and rushing them somewhere, but even then some light resistance means that it doesn't work. And it's fairly obvious (or at least it should be) that doing that is not going to be in the final game anyway, because it's stupid and I somehow doubt that comms will be able to place infinite turrets for very little cost once the game actually has some semblance of balance in it.
Don't guarantee something so stupid. I don't give two ###### about dying in a game (obvious with my fractional KD ratios) so even if this situation DID happen, I'd go for the one on the MAC.
Of course if you're under time constraints you might be tempted to sacrifice players to complete the base faster, it depends on the situation.
the gorge gets to build and now is a forward support unit...should work fine for me.....
I always avoided playing rine due to the build/weld issues....
maybe mappers could add features that rines could interface with in a build/weld capacity.....
Although map weldables could be kinda daft, better to have MACs do those.
the gorge gets to build and now is a forward support unit...should work fine for me.....
I always avoided playing rine due to the build/weld issues....
maybe mappers could add features that rines could interface with in a build/weld capacity.....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow lol. just wow.
Base welding could probably be done by just making MACs automatically fix anything broken nearby.
I agree though MACs and Drifters need to move MUCH slower.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The tension comes from being defenseless whilst you build
Gorge needs to have more build options..
And.. NS2 can't still have a different style with building/welding added in? That's like saying because NS2 and 1 both have lmg's they are identical..you do realize the game has a VAST amount of changes outside of not being able to build and weld right?
The power grid/DI ALONE is more then enough to merit that NS2 will have a very different play style and feel, and that's not including all the other new features and changes made as well. So no, adding welding and building will not make it like NS1, just taking another piece from 1 and BUILDING on it to make a new and IMPROVED game, with its own unique style that differs from NS1.
if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it molested a winning formula. and the replacement formula isn't merely "new" or "different", it's inferior, it's bad
it's not "it's own game" or "a new game", it's <u><b>NS</b></u>2. acceptable change would be something like a different protolab upgrade and guns for marines, and a new lifeform for aliens. they've just defecated upon what made the original game great. i have the same feeling towards NS2 as i did to combat: what's even the point of this? why did you do this? do you not get it?
i bought the pre-order largely out of sheer goodwill and desire to donate to the creators of my favorite game of all time, and i still don't regret funding their dream nor do i ever wish UWE ill - but i have no illusions anymore, i have no hope or interest in NS2. even with the kinks worked out, it's just not good enough
I know it's not the same, just FYI.
if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is itself doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it toyed too much with a winning formula<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did, I already like it more than NS1.
The beta. Is not. Complete. Making such an immediate, rash judgment based on the beta is like saying an unfinished house won't protect you from the rain.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->if NS2 even has enough players continuing to test it long enough, which is itself doubtful since most people are giving up on it pretty quick, more and more people are going to realize how unfun it is because it toyed too much with a winning formula<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Get a grip on reality, or go find another bridge to hide under. NS1's formula is not perfect.
what if you look at the blueprint for the foundation and notice there's an obvious weak spot that can't support it, but it's too late to correct since so much structure has been built around the original flawed plans?
I brought this up in one of the many other threads about this topic, but you really lose any ability to ninja a hive (assuming that whole strategy is still valid in ns2 and not removed). A mac will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right place at the right time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly do you lose the ability to ninja a hive? <i>A MAC will never replace a humans ability to listen for enemies and strategically call for a phase gate at the right time.</i> This is true. But MACs aren't replacing human players. You will still have human players do do exactly all the things you describe. The only difference is, instead of having structures drop out of thin air, you'll need a MAC tagging along to place them. And you may be thinking an NPC doesn't have the intelligence to be stealthy in such a situation, not without a commander explicitly navigating it. This is true. Fortunately, NS2 will have multiple commanders, such that the main commander won't have to shift his focus away from more important matters into order to navigate MACs - sub commanders can do this! You won't always need a MAC either, since the commander has the replicate ability which allows him to instantly drop completed structures anywhere. <i>See how it all works out?</i> You can't see the effects of the absence or addition of a single feature in NS2 without considering all the other features.
Except the blueprint you are looking at is incomplete. The drafter hasn't shown you everything you need to know. In any case, if you think you've seen enough of NS2 to be able to immediately dismiss it, then I would invite you to describe what those weak spots are instead of posting nonconstructive rubbish like "it's inferior, it's bad". Anything less is just trolling. Great, aleph thinks its bad for no discernible reason. Why do we care? Next.
[<!--quoteo(post=1810740:date=Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM:name=aleph)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (aleph @ Nov 26 2010, 05:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it's not "it's own game" or "a new game", it's <u><b>NS</b></u>2. acceptable change would be something like a different protolab upgrade and guns for marines, and a new lifeform for aliens. they've just defecated upon what made the original game great. i have the same feeling towards NS2 as i did to combat: what's even the point of this? why did you do this? do you not get it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is VERY subjective. The kind of changes you describe sound more like an expansion pack rather than a sequel.
Like they would be used for somewhat boring tasks like base duty, welding damaged stuff and so on. But only in vicinity of the base and usually in a somewhat worse way compared to a marine doing it.
That way they would be like an OPTION for the commander, you know kinda like "my team is busy all over the map and nobody is in base to build the proto, guess i'm gonna drop a MAC to do that". Maybe give them an unique advantage like improving buildings, a MAC could fly up to an RT and boost it's resource collection rate for a limited time.
Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that MAC's could be optional builders. Wasn't that the idea of MAC's in the first place? To allow the commander to build without relying on marines, who may not want to spend the first 2 minutes in base building?
That being said, we also have to consider the possibility for the roles of players in the game to have changed. NS2 has added a huge new element to the game - Power Grid and Infestation. I think some people are underestimating just how significant these features can be. So you might not be able to do certain traditional things that you could in NS1. But you will be capable of new things. I previously suggested that the idea of portable power nodes be relegated to marines. Someone suggested you might not be able to ninja hives in NS2 - maybe not in the same way as in NS1. But imagine sneaking into a hive, laying down a portable power node, having your commander instantly drop a bunch of sentries and an armoury (through the replicate ability, which allows the commander to instantly drop completed structures anywhere). Voila, ninja hive attack complete.
e: Sorry for the triple post, I just wanted to delineate my responses.
lots of people think the exact same things (read other forums) but dont care enough to write them
fanboys like yourself make discussion or opinion giving tedious, if only you knew how annyoing it is to 98% of readers to see paragraphs of words with a sentence worth of ideas, and clip/quote/respod nitpicking posts. ugguhuguguhgu